F1 engine double sound?

[geekdiggy]

i know i'm not the only one who notices this. k, F1 engines are known for their high revs and therefore very high engine note, very whiney almost. but everytime i watch i also hear a lower note, tangent to the higher not but a couple of octaves lower. i wanna know, how come the F1 engine makes two different notes both low and high?

[Toronto]

the low note, like when start the engine?

[geekdiggy]

NOOOOOOOOO. dammit come on i know you guys know what i'm talking about. when the engine is just wailing away and the revs are climbing you can hear the high pitch scream of the engine but it also has a lower note as well that climbs along with the higher note. watch any F1 video and listen for it.

and then, someone explain me how it does that

[Vansquish]

Might just be the exhaust resonating or something of that sort...or a vibration through the chassis...I think I know the sounds you're talking about...it's almost like a low-pitched buzz right?

[geekdiggy]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ok ok i found an example

http://209.43.92.201/ims/ims/multimedia/video/030611GordonMontoya-bg.wmv

watch that video and listen in at around 1:24-1:27 and you'll see what i'm talking about

[Vansquish]

Ok...I was right...it's the same sound I thought it was, but I'm changing my opinion...I think it's a resonance set up by the engine itself. Not exhaust, not chassis vibration. In a V8 the sequence in which the cylinders fire sets up a resonance so you get that "lub-lub-lub" sound which when sped up can sound like a revving musclecar to a Ferrari 360CS's V8...which has a similar resonant sound to the F1 engine...If you listen to some of the more recent high-performance V10's for roadcars...i.e. Carrera GT, Gallardo and E60 M5...you'll hear something similar.

[lovatof1]

Without too much acoustical theory....

The sound is always there. Sympathetic frequencies are always octaves of dominant frequencies, either higher or lower. It could possibly be the natural frequency of the engine, it could the natural frequency of the entire car.

Since the sound discussed is lower, not higher, I would say that because lower frequencies tend to be longer wave forms, and most mics , especially in-car, aren't designed to pick them up, you wont hear them in-car. Also, since sound from the engine is omni-directional (sympathetic movement of adjacent air molecules from the top and sides of the engine as it moves thru the air), minus the expulsion of the gasses from the exhaust, you'll only get what the engine throws forward, and the vibration of the mic in its mounting. Most the time sound phase cancellation will take care of some frequencies and what you have left are dominants, in this case, the blender sound of the revving. We can see for the most part, the car isn't shaking the camera to pieces, thus, the natural frequency of the camera + mounting + air scoop combination is out of range of the natural frequency of the engine + monocoque connection. The higher the rev, the higher the frequency, as always, and vice versa.

Since the car is moving forward and the sound of the exhaust is moving backward, and probably cancelled, you'll not hear the exhaust note on an in car mic, unless they put a mic behind the exhaust, or are micing an object that resonates at the same frequency (suspension mounting behind the exhaust, the driver's helmet? maybe...)

In the section of the video mentioned, you're in the middle of a road track, with barriers and natural items, (trees, grass, air), as well as surrounded by a huge ova, with the source camera not on the car, and at some distance, as its coming round a corner, lower rev situation. The television camera + mic setup can pick up the long wave forms, as they've done a bit of travel, as well as the bounces of the frequencies off the track, off the grass/trees, etc., to make a "whole sound", one with phase modulation due to the same frequency arriving at the hearer, in this case the mic, slightly faster, straight thru the air to the mic, or slower, bounced off an object and toward the hearer. You'll also hear the sympathetics, that are lower, due to their ability to travel, in conjunction with the original sound of the engine.

Hope that helps. :-D

cheers,
James

[geekdiggy]

Hope that helps. :-D

it WOULD help if you pretented for a second that i'm NOT a regular subscriber to Dork Audiology Magazine.

just kidding.

the sound i was describing CAN actually be heard from the on-board footage, in fact it's the only sound you hear, and not the high-pitch whining that you can hear when you're sitting trackside or in the stands. the lower pitch isn't VERY low, but it's low enough to know it's a distinctly different sound from the high-note that F1 engines are known for. your explanation on the mechanics of sound was quite informal, but i'm not sure if it has anything to do with what i was addressing, i think the sound has more to do with the engine than audionomics (or whatever you people call it)

[cho_888]

hahahaha, dude he sure knows what he is talking about! thanks nice explaination

[robruf]

When I at the Grand Prix of Canada at Montreal 3 races ago, the greatest sound both my dad and I have ever heard was when Micheal Schuacher was leading the race and everyone was under a caution lap so they were all just going like turtles around the track and for anyone who knows anything about the track at Montreal will know where this incident took place. Just after the hairpin and before the long straight beside the rowing basin, there is a slight kink in the track and Shumacher was leading by about 10 car lenths, at this particular area he was only person who could see the caution flag be taken away and be replaced with the green 'let's get it on' flag.

So when the green flag was shown to him, he just simply nailed it from whatever rpm he was in til it bounced off the rev limiter and everyone at the Montreal GP heard what happened next. The single greatest sound I have ever heard, the Ferrari V-10 let out such a sound that I think every single male there and quite possibly a bunch bunch of race crazy females all orgasmed at the same tie. The engine note just screamed unlike anything that I have ever heard, the sound only lasted a couple of seconds, but it was the most aggressive, high-pitched shriek that anyone has ever heard, I think that it also helped that the walls helped echo it. My dad and I still talk about that sound to this day.

[lovatof1]

Hope that helps. :-D
your explanation on the mechanics of sound was quite informal, but i'm not sure if it has anything to do with what i was addressing, i think the sound has more to do with the engine than audionomics (or whatever you people call it)

Well since the source is the engine, it has everything to do with it, now doesn't it? And since you're dealing with sound, it has everything to do with how you hear it (audiology) and acoustics(science of sound, how it gets to your ear to hear it in the first place).

The video and times you quoted were not incar, so I based what I thought on that. If you wanna get into the sticky of doubling sounds (sympathetic harmonics) its easier to remember that the way F-1 teams build an engine is by looking at it as 5 V-twins, and set the timing and firing order accordingly. It's possible, since yr talking extremely high rev counts, the firing orders, although different can overlap and give a phase enhancing effect.

Just an idea...
cheers,
James

[Toronto]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ok ok i found an example

http://209.43.92.201/ims/ims/multimedia/video/030611GordonMontoya-bg.wmv

watch that video and listen in at around 1:24-1:27 and you'll see what i'm talking about

that sound might just be the wind?

[tanelvali]

LOL. Do you know what you hear when you drive past of close walls or houses. the sound reflects back. Same is in F!, sound reflects back also from objects at the greater distance due to the enormous noise they make. One, high, whiney sound comes directly from the car, the other, buch lower first goes to other direction, hits some object (for example trackside wall) and then reflects back to you..

:) :) :)