What you guys think about GM selling off Hummer?

[fordgt84]

http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/car_news_article.aspx?cp-documentid=14119394


February 13 2009

General Motors' staunchly American car brand Hummer could be sold-off to a Chinese company and private equity firm for £69.4 million ($100m).

The news might save GM from a government-funded bankruptcy, but will mean that one of America's most iconic car brands could end up in foreign hands.

Hummer is to the Americans what Land Rover is to the Brits. And so as America potentially bids farewell to its beloved 4x4 maker, we take a look back at other US motoring legends. From the early pioneering motors at the turn of the last century that set us on the road to mobilisation, to the infamous muscle cars that have graced the silver screen - these are the 50 greatest American cars of all time.



I would say Jeep is to Americans what Land Rover is to the Brits...

But anyhow, I'm sure back when Hummer just started making civilian versions of the Humvees they were kinda cool...but then inevitably they wanted more money and the H2 was born...then the H3.

And now no one wants to buy a Hummer, except for this Chinese company.

So what u guys think? good riddens or "don't do it GM!!" ?

[5vz-fe]

Hummer has very low volume sales, but at the same time it's only 100m....it won't last them 2 weeks.

I say fire everyone, just keep the brandname.

[Alelanza]

I would say Jeep is to Americans what Land Rover is to the Brits...


Now that's weird, i was phrasing that in my mind and then saw you wrote it...
Anyways, i doubt rappers will allow for this to happen, i can see lil jon very pissed about this you know?

[pitfield]

It's a pointless company other than the military version, so it could just fail to exist and I wouldn't care.

[pitfield]

Now that's weird, i was phrasing that in my mind and then saw you wrote it...
Anyways, i doubt rappers will allow for this to happen, i can see lil jon very pissed about this you know?

The yanks got there first but yes I think it probably is.

The Series I was based on the Willies Jeep

[HeilSvenska]

Ugh. Anyone but the Chinese. They tend to ruin everything.

[pitfield]

How?

[pitfield]

Ugh. Anyone but the Chinese. They tend to ruin everything.

Such a silly thing to say.

[HeilSvenska]

Such a silly thing to say.
I just can't forgive them for Morris Garages => Modern Gentlemen crap they pulled off. I have no desire to ever be PC.

Who knows what monstrosity they'll do with Hummer?

[pitfield]

it was hardly the Chinese who fucked up MG?

[HeilSvenska]

it was hardly the Chinese who fucked up MG?
No. But the Chinese completely mopped up whatever heritage it had left and dumped it all in piss water.

I shudder to think what Chinese would come up as the new definition of the name Hummer.

It can't be helped. The Chinese may be good at many things. Building walls. Marking borders. Porcelain. Illegal gymnasts. Cheap manufacturing etc... Whatever. But in no way would anyone in the right mind ask them for advice on the automotive industry or marketing. You know you wouldn't.

[nthfinity]

No. But the Chinese completely mopped up whatever heritage it had left and dumped it all in piss water.

I shudder to think what Chinese would come up as the new definition of the name Hummer.

It can't be helped. The Chinese may be good at many things. Building walls. Marking borders. Porcelain. Illegal gymnasts. Cheap manufacturing etc... Whatever. But in no way would anyone in the right mind ask them for advice on the automotive industry or marketing. You know you wouldn't.
Cheap manufacturing comes at a price; substandard materials; build quality of components... is going to cost the western world's industries far more than anybody could imagine.

The cost of "selling" a brand to the Chinese is the cost of losing might. Perhaps since england has already socialized much of it's government, and left it's world leading industries to the third world; you already accept this cost as "reasonable" Howeer, I cannot say that many of us concur with this statement.

"you" referring to pitfield

[HeilSvenska]

Of course, all the things I mentioned for the Chinese being good at, I was being sarcastic. You can't expect an oppressive self proclaimed communistic nation to produce anything truly great other than scary group mentality and manpower. But enough about that.

Back to the discussion. GM selling Hummer is a good idea. Hummer I don't think ever offered a reliable long term product plan anyway. All the other GM brands do what Hummer does, and once its image was soiled (and with the H1 out of production), then there is no point in keeping it around. Sadly, I have the same to say about SAAB.

[Mattk]

i can see lil jon very pissed about this you know?
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!?!? lol

China's production quality is now comparatively good. Better than most places in the third world. Design, however, is something they need to work on.

Hummer is not doing GM any favours. The H1 was solid, until rappers started buying it, and they made the H2. The H2 still had off-road cred, but it all went downhill from there. It is a joke. There won't be a cost of selling it. It's not even a particularly long-standing model.

[RC45]

There won't be a cost of selling it.

There will be a cost, a cost to national security.

The Chinese government would purchase many design patents and intellectual property related to many secret military components designed and built by Hummer for the US military.

The is a mistake of huge proportions, and even borders on treason to sell Hummer pt the Chinese.

[79TA]

There will be a cost, a cost to national security.

The Chinese government would purchase many design patents and intellectual property related to many secret military components designed and built by Hummer for the US military.

The is a mistake of huge proportions, and even borders on treason to sell Hummer pt the Chinese.

Are you sure? It's not like AM General, the Humvee manufacturer, is on the auction block. I know the H1 is Humvee based, but it seems most of GM's Hummer secrets could be learned simply by dissecting any of their vehicles. The H2 is built on an extended Tahoe Chassis and the H3 is also unrelated to the military. Does Hummer and its H1 really have that much information related to the Humvee?

[RC45]

Are you sure? It's not like AM General, the Humvee manufacturer, is on the auction block. I know the H1 is Humvee based, but it seems most of GM's Hummer secrets could be learned simply by dissecting any of their vehicles. The H2 is built on an extended Tahoe Chassis and the H3 is also unrelated to the military. Does Hummer and its H1 really have that much information related to the Humvee?

Why take the chance? Every company (even US and European companies) that do business in China are part Chinese government owned, and part of that deal is to have access to all company data and many times this includes classified data and information.

[MidEngine4Life]

I would say Jeep is to Americans what Land Rover is to the Brits...


I agree 100%

As for Hummer falling into chinese hands? I think you can kiss the brand goodbye....and that I dont mind. Because after the H1 I thought it was just a joke.......

This is an offroad vehicle
Humvee vs Jeep - YouTube
YouTube

[5vz-fe]

The way the Humvee go thru mud is just unbelievable.....

[Mattk]

The Chinese government would purchase many design patents and intellectual property related to many secret military components designed and built by Hummer for the US military.
The military HMMWV is 1. far more advanced than any of the three GM Hummers and 2. close to superseded technology anyway. Besides, I'm not sure the Chinese rolling out copycat Humvees is really going to threaten world stability.

[Alelanza]

The military HMMWV is 1. far more advanced than any of the three GM Hummers and 2. close to superseded technology anyway. Besides, I'm not sure the Chinese rolling out copycat Humvees is really going to threaten world stability.

Exactly

and even borders on treason to sell Hummer pt the Chinese.

LOL cmon that's just the paranoia talking, any secrets worth a dime have already been sold and bought thru the 'regular' channels.
If you wanna be afraid of something, think about the army of basketballers and rappers led by the terminator and stiletto wearin Dennis Rodman burnin down cities when they get wind of this.....

[RC45]

The military HMMWV is 1. far more advanced than any of the three GM Hummers and 2. close to superseded technology anyway. Besides, I'm not sure the Chinese rolling out copycat Humvees is really going to threaten world stability.

THe company represents far more intellectual property than just that one vehicle you see, and not keeping secrets from enemy governments does threaten world stability.

The coming world economic crisis will prove to all you kumbaja do-gooders that the russians, chinese, north koreans, iranians etc have not and never will be strategically allied to the west.

When squandered allied secrets are used to make weapons and systems that be killing western nations enmasse, perhaps then people will come to understand the reality f the world.

LOL cmon that's just the paranoia talking, any secrets worth a dime have already been sold and bought thru the 'regular' channels.
If you wanna be afraid of something, think about the army of basketballers and rappers led by the terminator and stiletto wearin Dennis Rodman burnin down cities when they get wind of this.....

No it is not paranoia speaking, it is experience and common sense.

[HeilSvenska]

Well. Right now, in this situation, common sense tells you that a little paranoia is necessary.

[Alelanza]

it is experience and common sense.

Well that's a bit subjective. As in, to me it's common sense that if there are secrets/intellectual property to be bought off, it does not matter whether an american or a chinese person are in charge of whatever Hummer is right now. I doubt the chinese, or anyone for that matter would buy Hummer, but if the chinese go for it, it won't be to acquire technology, they have speedier ways of doing that and have been doing it for years. If they buy it, it will simply be to make a statement: a cultural slap in the face, nothing more.

[Mattk]

THe company represents far more intellectual property than just that one vehicle you see
But they're only selling off the brand. GM doesn't own AM General. All they do is sell the cars, although they do make the H3 which is based on the ho-hum Colorado chassis.

Monstrous long-wheelbase cars like the Hummer are nowadays only profitable in places like the Middle-East (the Emirates in particular), and perhaps Russia to a lesser extent. I don't think a lot of Americans buy Hummers. It's certainly a subject of ridicule in Australia.

In China, GM sells its cars almost exclusively in black, dark blue, white, and silver, and not all cars have all those colours. This is because most Chinese nationals with money are pretty conservative. Many cars are corporately-owned. I don't see Hummer in its current guise having a lot of impact in China and I don't think the sale to Sichuan Automotive Group (rumoured to be in discussions) will go forward. An Emirates-based conglomerate is my bet, but I also feel almost equally that the brand will just go quietly.

[RC45]

But they're only selling off the brand. GM doesn't own AM General. All they do is sell the cars, although they do make the H3 which is based on the ho-hum Colorado chassis.


I did not say GM owns AM General, bu tconsidering the JOINT produciotn of the H1 required technology and intellectual property sharing, there is a huge chance national security secrets could be leaked.

And I suggest you inform yourself viz-a-viz the "real" off road capability of the H2.



Monstrous long-wheelbase cars like the Hummer are nowadays only profitable in places like the Middle-East (the Emirates in particular), and perhaps Russia to a lesser extent. I don't think a lot of Americans buy Hummers. It's certainly a subject of ridicule in Australia.


I don't quite think the aulity/capabilty or viability of any product is based on whether or not it is the subject of ridicule in Australia... do youthink the rest of the world "praises" the stereotypical Autralian Ute?

http://www.amgeneral.com/vehicles/hummer/

Some reading matter to spruce up your Hummer general knowledge ;)


In China, GM sells its cars almost exclusively in black, dark blue, white, and silver, and not all cars have all those colours. This is because most Chinese nationals with money are pretty conservative. Many cars are corporately-owned. I don't see Hummer in its current guise having a lot of impact in China and I don't think the sale to Sichuan Automotive Group (rumoured to be in discussions) will go forward. An Emirates-based conglomerate is my bet, but I also feel almost equally that the brand will just go quietly.

Any time these "brands" get sold and relocated, its a stupid decision, because without the supply chain and intellectual assets, the brand is worth nought.

And the idea of a locally based production facility being owned by an enemy government is never a good idea, especially not in this day and age.

And please don't kid yourself, while the average Chinese citizen may have no opinion about the US or the est, the Chinese government views the US and the west and potential enemy hostiles, and have never had any intention of peacefully co-operating on the world stage.

They have simply exploited the naive greed of the liberals in the west.

[Mattk]

I don't quite think the aulity/capabilty or viability of any product is based on whether or not it is the subject of ridicule in Australia...
I never said it was. Regardless of how good it is, people don't seem to be buying them in high numbers. Why else would they sell the brand? Low sales all round is the prime motivator for Rick Wagoner to sell off Hummer and Saab and meanwhile restructure Buick and Pontiac.

Any time these "brands" get sold and relocated, its a stupid decision, because without the supply chain and intellectual assets, the brand is worth nought.
I agree, but the audacity of reality has proved logic wrong, seeing as the Indian Mahindra company was immediately interested the moment Wagoner announced this last year, and GM themselves say they are considering a number of offers. It is clearly worth something to a lot of people, as odd as that seems.

And enemy government or not, China has everything to lose if they start hostilities against America and the West, because they'll have no one left to rip off. If they do attack, China has nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. The fact that they have Hummers isn't going to be the problem.

Even if Sichuan Auto Industry Group gets Hummer, and the Chinese government get all their automotive patents because the have control over major industries, what additional military capabilities will they get? Better vehicles, perhaps. The US military is in the process of phasing out the HMMWV, so there will still be a significant technology gap. Besides, given the lack of respect Chinese producers pay to competition law, I'm sure they've managed to buy a Hummer and clone it. Oh wait, it's happened already via Dongfeng Motors: http://www.chinacartimes.com/2007/05/28/chinese-hummer-to-hit-the-market-next-year/. And here's another one (which I actually didn't know about until now): http://harshpaul.instablogs.com/entry/hummer-cloned-in-china-again/.

In any case, this seems to be much ado about nothing. The chances of a minor Chinese manufacturer in a non-existent Hummer market getting the brand are very slim.

[RC45]

I never said it was. Regardless of how good it is, people don't seem to be buying them in high numbers. Why else would they sell the brand? Low sales all round is the prime motivator for Rick Wagoner to sell off Hummer and Saab and meanwhile restructure Buick and Pontiac.


I agree, but the audacity of reality has proved logic wrong, seeing as the Indian Mahindra company was immediately interested the moment Wagoner announced this last year, and GM themselves say they are considering a number of offers. It is clearly worth something to a lot of people, as odd as that seems.

And enemy government or not, China has everything to lose if they start hostilities against America and the West, because they'll have no one left to rip off. If they do attack, China has nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. The fact that they have Hummers isn't going to be the problem.

Even if Sichuan Auto Industry Group gets Hummer, and the Chinese government get all their automotive patents because the have control over major industries, what additional military capabilities will they get? Better vehicles, perhaps. The US military is in the process of phasing out the HMMWV, so there will still be a significant technology gap. Besides, given the lack of respect Chinese producers pay to competition law, I'm sure they've managed to buy a Hummer and clone it. Oh wait, it's happened already via Dongfeng Motors: http://www.chinacartimes.com/2007/05/28/chinese-hummer-to-hit-the-market-next-year/. And here's another one (which I actually didn't know about until now): http://harshpaul.instablogs.com/entry/hummer-cloned-in-china-again/.

In any case, this seems to be much ado about nothing. The chances of a minor Chinese manufacturer in a non-existent Hummer market getting the brand are very slim.

I think you once again can't see the wood fo rthe trees, and take things too literally.

It is no the Hummer one would be worried about being cloned.. as uhm.. it would be part of the product being sold.

It is the other intellectual property and patents and data that is often compromised when companies are sold/exported and other wise stripped and given to foreign enemy governments.

I have assisted in such projects in the past here in the US, and what happens is that the foreign buyers get to have unfetered access to the company and many times the export of the technology is completely uncontrolled.

In 2000, we were contracted to assist a Texas based subsidiary of Motorola get ready to be sold off, and the actual process was uncontrolled and enormously compromising to the rest of the division, a division directly involved in classified miltary work. But hey, the sale was approved by Clinton in the late 1990's, so everything was ok... it was rediculous, the Chinese "engineers" were required to have access to classified and secure areas we as local contractors were not even allowed in or near.

I would bet that whom ever "buys" Hummer, would miraculously require access to AM General facilities as well, especially with the current regime in power.

[Mattk]

I see what you mean. But, considering AM General's involvement in the Hummer brand consists of making H2s through a contract with GM, there's no reason why any buyer would need to even look at anything related to AM General, who I presume possesses all the classified military stuff and not the Hummer division.

[pitfield]

Someone said Hummer has heritage, pass me the stiching, my sides have split.

[RC45]

Someone said Hummer has heritage, pass me the stiching, my sides have split.

I can imagine, because the last vestige of "heritage" the UK had was sold off to the Russians years ago.

[pitfield]

Morgan? Caterham? I know I scratching around but Morgan is one third the age of your country.

[RC45]

Morgan? Caterham? I know I scratching around but Morgan is one third the age of your country.

"Your" country? Didn't you try immigrate here?

[HeilSvenska]

Morgan? I know I scratching around but Morgan is one third the age of your country.
Morgan technically can't have any heritage since its cars are still built in the 1950's. :-P

[pitfield]

So you'd say that Harley-Davidson has no heritage?

What about the Aero 8 or lifecar?

[HeilSvenska]

So you'd say that Harley-Davidson has no heritage?

What about the Aero 8 or lifecar?

I never said I liked Harley that much. And they do have Buell division making modern sport bikes.

You got me on Aero 8. I do like that car. But the Lifecar's just a fantasy and rest of the range is pretty prehistoric.

Anyways, getting back to the point. Heritage just doesn't imply longevity, but also the amount of social impact it has. Morgan, for example, doesn't really stir much image but just being old. Most people think any Morgan's just an old car without checking the registration paper. It's hard for just anyone who's looking at a new Plus 8 and think about heritage when they think it's from 1955. Not me though. I always check the engine.

Hummer though, instantly imposes that image. That American image that makes you think of Humvees. I'm sure it's very much like that especially outside North America.

[pitfield]

Do you know how popular Morgan's are in Germany?

I know HUMMER has a massive image, it's a very in your face type of car, not subtle.

Def of heritage is not really applicable to HUMMER anyway, not the one in the dictionary at least.

[Alelanza]

Hummer though, instantly imposes that image. That American image that makes you think of Humvees. I'm sure it's very much like that especially outside North America.

Here a Hummer makes you think of a footballer (soccer to you). And unlike many other countries, here they somehow don't carry that 'i'm too big for the road/i'll drain the petrol from your worldz' stigma, people only tend to ask 'who does he play with?', seriously.
Given the poor state of many of our roads/streets due to the torrential tropical downpours, 4x4s aren't such a bad idea but the h2/3 aesthetics and general view that americans are unreliable make them a rare thing on the road. H1s are for the filthy rich only, they're quite something.

[Mattk]

Hummer though, instantly imposes that image. That American image that makes you think of Humvees. I'm sure it's very much like that especially outside North America.
Yeah, a negative image, perhaps.