[SPOILER] 2008 Belgian GP

[blue8]

Round 13: ING Belgian Grand Prix
Spa Francorchamps, Belgium

Live feed (thanks styla21):
http://f1stream.googlepages.com/f1itv.html
Another one:
http://www.soccer-live.pl/ITVF1/f1player.php

Free Practice 1:
Times
01 F. Massa Ferrari 1:47.284 25 laps
02 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 1:47.623 25 laps
03 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:47.878 27 laps
04 H. Kovalainen McLaren 1:47.932 24 laps
05 F. Alonso Renault 1:48.104 25 laps
06 M. Webber Red Bull 1:48.428 28 laps
07 S. Bourdais Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:48.557 30 laps
08 S. Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:48.958 24 laps
09 T. Glock Toyota 1:48.997 26 laps
10 N. Piquet jr. Renault 1:49.068 24 laps
11 R. Kubica BMW 1:49.139 25 laps
12 N. Heidfeld BMW 1:49.185 26 laps
13 N. Rosberg Williams 1:49.611 30 laps
14 J. Trulli Toyota 1:49.625 14 laps
15 D. Coulthard Red Bull 1:49.849 18 laps
16 G. Fisichella Force India F1 1:49.986 27 laps
17 A. Sutil Force India F1 1:50.117 19 laps
18 K. Nakajima Williams 1:50.125 30 laps
19 J. Button Honda 1:50.464 24 laps
20 R. Barrichello Honda 1:50.905 25 laps

Conditions: overcast but dry, potential for rain throughout the weekend (to make things very, very interesting - especially for Ferrari)

[79rivers]

Looks like it's Ferrari's turn this weekend.
Bourdais seventh fastest? Great!

[sprakzilla]

lets see what happens during quali BMW!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mattk]

I like Spa, but an early class and a delayed telecast means I must give this a miss. Oh well. Ferrari seems to have good pace, as well as Toro Rosso, which is pleasing for them.

[blue8]

Raikkonen just in P3 :ohmy:
Qualifying:
Pos Driver Team Q1 Q2 Q3 Laps
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:46.887 1:46.088 1:47.338 12
2. Massa Ferrari 1:46.873 1:46.391 1:47.678 16
3. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 1:46.812 1:46.037 1:47.815 16
4. Raikkonen Ferrari 1:46.960 1:46.298 1:47.992 14
5. Heidfeld BMW Sauber 1:47.419 1:46.311 1:48.315 18
6. Alonso Renault 1:47.154 1:46.491 1:48.504 18
7. Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:47.270 1:46.814 1:48.736 19
8. Kubica BMW Sauber 1:47.093 1:46.494 1:48.763 20
9. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:46.777 1:46.544 1:48.951 19
10. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:47.152 1:46.804 1:50.319 16
11. Trulli Toyota 1:47.400 1:46.949 13
12. Piquet Renault 1:47.052 1:46.965 15
13. Glock Toyota 1:47.359 1:46.995 13
14. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault 1:47.132 1:47.018 15
15. Rosberg Williams-Toyota 1:47.503 1:47.429 12
16. Barrichello Honda 1:48.153 9
17. Button Honda 1:48.211 9
18. Sutil Force India-Ferrari 1:48.226 9
19. Nakajima Williams-Toyota 1:48.268 9
20. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari 1:48.447 9

[Mattk]

Disappointing result for Coulthard. There seems to be a massive gulf in qualifying speed between him and Webber.

[Kissyface]

LEWIS F'ing HAMILTON!!

[toffytofik]

Hahahaha, that was EPIC!

Lewis n1!! Heidfeld n1!!

What a race! Long live the Spa and nasty Belgium weather! :D

Ferrari's just a bit unlucky lately...

[HaRdCoRe-WeZ]

This was sick!

[Carbodiox]

I will just say that i'm disapointed...

[fordgt84]

What a gr8 race to watch, almost as exciting as the british gp...it wasn't that exciting for the most part though...but when hamilton started closing in, and began trying to overtake kimi, it just went mental. Good thing hamilton let kimi pass after he went through that chicane though, but then it started to rain, hamilton and kimi nearly ran into that other car while fighting for 1st, hamilton went on the grass, but then kimi spun and crashed :ohmy:...indeed a gr8 race, more like this one plz :mrgreen:

[jamsbong]

That was a sensasional race. Hamilton is really good in the rain, the interview shows how confident he is. I remember Kimi was very good in the rain in the past but this year has not been right for him.

Well done to Hamilton and Heidfeld. All the spotlight was on Lewis but it is clear that Heidfeld is very skillful at tricky conditions as well.

[blue8]

The last two laps really had my heart pounding out of my chest!!!
Terribly disappointing result for Kimi. He badly needed a win this week.
But the drama isn't over yet:

The Belgian Grand Prix stewards cast doubt over the result of the race after announcing an incident between Lewis Hamilton and Kimi Raikkonen was under investigation. Hamilton won the thrilling race after passing Raikkonen when it began to rain heavily with three laps to go.



Before that, however, the duo made contact several times while the McLaren driver tried to pass the Ferrari and vice versa. Hamilton jumped the Bus Stop chicane before passing Raikkonen at La Source.


Hamilton went on to take his fifth win of the season while Raikkonen crashed against the wall and retired.


The stewards said after the race that the incident between the drivers was under investigation.

[blue8]

This just in:
After investigating the incident, the stewards have decided to give a drive-through penalty to Hamilton (adding 25-seconds to his time). Because of that, he is dropped to third place. Massa then wins the Belgian GP.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70401

[fordgt84]

i'm sure ferreari are delighted...some real bs in f1, seriously :angry:

[DeMoN]

It was a pretty exciting race. Last 3 laps left me with a smile that lasted well over the interviews. Such a shame my smile was fast erased by the FIA hinting on Lewis-Kimi review. FIA clearly being more of a Ferrari fan immediately made me realize they were looking for a way to take points away from Lewis even though Kimi pushed him out and Lewis gave the spot back AND passed Kimi again on the other side (not even the same side kimi went by him).

Pretty lame Stewart decision if you ask me (and planetf1 forum Ferrari supporters apparently think so too). If the McLaren appeal gets nowhere, I will (no doubt) boycott F1. I wont be locking out my weekends avoiding parties to be able to wake up at 7am for qualy/race to have such disappointments happen. I almost stopped watching when they fined $100 big ones and disqualified McLaren last year. This is the last stroke.

[hymera003]

Wow that's a strange twist to the race, I didn't know that you are not allowed to overtake a Ferrari:ohmy:.

[nthfinity]

great 1st 5 laps, great last 3 laps.... which is more then most races.

edit:
just realized the stewards are asses. I don't like it when McLaren win, however, the decision is pure bunk. If I were to review the race, and find that he did an illegal maneuver, I'd leave the result, but penalize him for the following race if anything.... not that I would do that.

[yellky]

oh, that was a fun to watch the last 2 laps!

poor Lewis boy, this year FIA's not that helpful..
well, i'd call it even (i didnt forget last year's FIAmilton)

[dauemannen]

I just finished watching the race, and those two last laps were really great.

I must admit I am quite a Ferrari supporter, which might make it a bit harder for me to defend the fact that I think the stewards were right in giving Lewis a drive-through. He did, rightly so, let Kimi past again after jumping the chicane, but just barely. This was what gave him that great run on Kimi in the hairpin where he past him. So he did gain an advantage form cutting the chicane, though in the next corner, where he passed a car. Hamilton should just have let Raikkonen go and then tried to pass him later in the lap cause he clearly had the better car in those conditions.

[styla21]

Ooh.. Stiff penalty. I feel for Lewis today.
However, rules are rules. It is way to subjective to say that if a Ferrari car had committed the same rule breach, that they would not be penalized. Let's see what the Mclaren appeal yields.

Heidfeld - great decision, great result!
Kimi - heartbreaking.

[essjay]

I am at a loss for words on how Lewis lost that totally deserved win.... I thought that the FIA would atleast have some sense in hiding their support for Ferrari but I guess not. Wow. :-(

[Rift]

I feel for Kimi he dominated that race with out a doubt all the negative talk about him in the last few weeks is null he proved that today till a bit of pressure/rain came at the end.

But the decision by the stewards like this is exactly the kind of crap that ruins great races like this Hamilton deserves that win and taking it away from him is just shear cruelty for no reason. If they absolutely must have punished him they should have left it for the next race not taken away a well deserved and well earned victory.

[bettlejuice]

When Kimi pushed Hamilton out he was just half-a-car behind.. when he returned to the track he let Kimi overtake him... he actually gave more than what he had before .. what happened next was because mclaren was faster... i drive-thru penalty after the race ending is nonsense... perhaps if hamilton had injured a mechanic or hit some flag guy everything would be fine now... seems to work for ferrari

[Pokiou]

I told you guys. I TOLD YOU ALL FIARRARI... this is total bullshit.. It was the best stint.. It was full on racing. HOW it should be.. Perfeect battle for 1st and 2nd !

And to penalise him. It confirms that FIA should NO longer be apart of F1!

[Pokiou]

oh, that was a fun to watch the last 2 laps!

poor Lewis boy, this year FIA's not that helpful..
well, i'd call it even (i didnt forget last year's FIAmilton)

Your full of shit with that comment and i can smell it from here !

FIA has always helped Ferrari win and this is just PURE proof of it.. NO rules where broken UNLESS you call what kimi did right.. NOT giving space and causing another racer to go off track.

he seems to be bringin Michaels Tactics to the track!

FIA NO GO!

[DeMoN]

I just finished watching the race, and those two last laps were really great.

I must admit I am quite a Ferrari supporter, which might make it a bit harder for me to defend the fact that I think the stewards were right in giving Lewis a drive-through. He did, rightly so, let Kimi past again after jumping the chicane, but just barely. This was what gave him that great run on Kimi in the hairpin where he past him. So he did gain an advantage form cutting the chicane, though in the next corner, where he passed a car. Hamilton should just have let Raikkonen go and then tried to pass him later in the lap cause he clearly had the better car in those conditions.

If you have the video, you can later see the yellow flag kimmi (Im a BIG kimi fan - Im a McLaren fan and Kimi fan at the same time Lewis is 2nd) neglected to slow down for. He obviously did not get any penalties. Lewis went to the grass to avoid colission Kimi just stormed past w/o lifting.

[DeMoN]

How is this:
YouTube

more penalty worthy than
YouTube


Remember Schumacher did NOT get a penalty for that pass.

[Mattk]

If you gain an advantage or cause disadvnatge though non-legal methods, you must be penalised to the extent of the advantage gained. The is true in all sports. In soccer, if you are dispossessed through an illegal tackle, you get an indirect free kick. Play continues as if the offence did not occur. It is the same principle in tort law. If you are hurt when a car runs you over, you get damages to compensate you for medical costs and loss of wages. Nothing more nothing less.

Hamilton gained an advantage by cutting the chicane and in the ensuing situation, disadvantaging Raikonnen. Tough call, but not incorrect. The standard penalty of 25 seconds was imposed, the same penalty, I might add, given to Timo Glock after he overtook Mark Webber under yellow flags.

It is hard to prove that FIA favours Ferrari. There is no precedential analysis to confirm that in the recent past, the same FIA stewards panel have let illegal racing moves go unpunished. Stewards have nothing to gain from favouring one team. They just call it as they see it.

[Rift]

He gained an advantage that he then gave back... he kept it close which any body would have. The two above videos are perfect examples of it and you gotta love how Schumi never got a penalty yet today's incident is more penalty worthy? Common give me a break that was spectacular driving on both drivers parts and FIA's ruling is uncalled for. The race was great and this is just ruining it.

In the end what FIA sais goes but i really hope the apeal goes through and this is overturned, in true F1 fasion watch this get solved towards the last race or two really kicking things up.

[Pokiou]

Mattk your a tool.. its people like you that make good racing shit... They battled for pole position kimi cut off Hamilton off and caused him to go OFF track.. Do you think it would of been wiser for them to collide and have two cars off the track ? I dont think so Hamilton pulled the correct move. He avoided a collision that was bening forced upon him and did it well.. Hamilton coming out in front was luck and shows HOW unprofessional Kimi is becoming. I loved it.. not cause i support Mclaren BUT the fact it brought back the awesome memories of Mansel and Senna.

Fia is supporting Ferrari every step of the way and this just proves it even more!

[Mattk]

you gotta love how Schumi never got a penalty yet today's incident is more penalty worthy?
Different time, different panel. That was then, this is now. Obviously, the stewards of today take a different view.

Fia is supporting Ferrari every step of the way and this just proves it even more!
Actually, no it doesn't. It only potentially proves that the FIA doesn't like Lewis Hamilton.

Also, did I ever say that I thought Hamilton should have been penalised? No, I did not. If I were a steward, I probably would have let it go. It's not worth a 25 second penalty, in my opinion. But I'm not a steward and I can't fully justify it because I'm not trained in that respect. Neither are you.

[Pokiou]

Most of us are to be honest.. i do part time stewarding! (Amateur and still learning) So your input above was done with NO knowledge and only what’s on paper if even that. So its flawed, Hamilton did the right thing and should NOT have been penalised. Kimi should have been flagged moved down a position on the grid for his driving, IF we want to follow paper work. When Hamilton Merged in front of Kimi at the turn he LET him pass and then stuck behind. AS you might recall it happened in Germany Where he over took the car in the chicane and didn’t allow him to pass he got fined. He let the Ferrari pass this time and still go fined! Unfortunately you logic is lacking of proper knowledge.

Sorry mate i like your input but sometimes its WELL and ABOVE weirdness! i don’t know HOW you come to your conclusions BUT I’m pretty sure when it comes to politics your pretty good at it ;)

As I said before and as EVERYONE is seeing but your most of you are failing to acknowledge. FIA is supporting Ferrari. I think it might because they are bringing in the most money but it’s in NO way sportsmanship.

FIA and F1 Should go there own ways.!! FIA has been a massive ANCHOR on F1 and this is just proof with a cherry on top!

[styla21]

If they absolutely must have punished him they should have left it for the next race not taken away a well deserved and well earned victory.

I'm going to play devils advocate here. - How can you say it was a well-deserved and well-earned victory, if in the stewards opinion, Hamilton was deemed to have an advantage from his shortcut? It couldn't have been a "well earned victory" if the stewards deem Hamilton to have gained by going off course, and hence the penalty.:-)

Having said that, I feel it was highly likely that Hamilton would have won regardless. ;-)

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi :)

I've been watching that race yesterday (like i watch all the races if i can, time-wise it's a bit difficult in Asia) and believe me, in that last two laps both me AND my boyfriend (who doesn't like motor racing at all!) were standing up watching that action there!

And even HE said that Lewis, but letting Kimi pass him again, did everything correct - he (my boyfriend) doesn't know jack about F1 rules but applied simple logic - gain advantage by skipping a chicane, then let the opponent pass again - all clear. What followed was clean and pure racing.

Plus, wasn't it Kimi who squeezed Lewis off the track there?? What was Lewis supposed to do, drop the anchor and risk a spin??

I used to be a Ferrari fan but i have completely changed to be a Lewis Hamilton-fan - because of the way he drives, no more. he's an excellent driver, full stop.

But this whole season looks like FIA prefers Ferrari and does everything it can to have them win, on-and-off the track.

Regards.....

Thanh

[DeMoN]

In soccer, one player awards BY CHOICE a penalty/free throw to the other team by making a foul. Lewis had NO CHOICE but to go to the grass or hit Kimi. Mattk, if you really dont see how FIA clearly favor Ferrari then you are really blinded by Ferrari. I bet you think Schumacher won every year by pure talent, not by cheating EVER.

[Rift]

I'm going to play devils advocate here. - How can you say it was a well-deserved and well-earned victory, if in the stewards opinion, Hamilton was deemed to have an advantage from his shortcut? It couldn't have been a "well earned victory" if the stewards deem Hamilton to have gained by going off course, and hence the penalty.:-)

Having said that, I feel it was highly likely that Hamilton would have won regardless. ;-)


I say that IMO steward opinion is obviously different. But IMO he did nothing wrong he pushed hard at the end and won it.

[arguapacha]

I am a Ferrari fan (I don't like any driver), but this is the way I watched the situation: I didn't see anything wrong with Raikkonen's move on the chicane. Hamilton was not ahead of him neither at the enter of the chicane, nor at the middle of it, so Raikkonen had the right to keep the line as he did, and yes, it is a normal move to push off someone if there are scape routes. Hamilton did also the right thing by cutting the chicane to avoid contact, and still did the right thing giving back the position to Raikkonen. Here is where comes the debate: how settled in their positions the cars should be to be considered that the car that cut the chicane has given back the place? and, in this specific case, was there any advantage from the car behind, the one that cut the chicane, on the straight? It can be 'said' that yes, because cutting means that it has more momentum when comes back to the track, but there is no way for us to know, because, according to McLaren's reports on media "Lewis was 6km/h slower than Kimi as they crossed the start-finish line" (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8334.html), but we do not know how true it is, or what McLaren, neither Ferrari data banks hold of the situation. Only stewards have access to the data.

Having said that, as a personal opinion, much to my sadness, I would feel like Hamilton gave back the spot, but did not deserve that win. To me, alongside Bourdais, Raikkonen was the man of the race and the honorable winner of it.

[Pokiou]

^^^ I wouldnt expect anything different from a Ferrari fan lol .. Hamilton gave teh spot back got it abck and won... Penalties are only given to other teams other then ferrari..

[setheddy]

I Can't F---ing believe the FIA would do something so stupid!!!! I just don't see where Lewis had any more of an advantage. Unbelievable.

[Mattk]

Penalties are only given to other teams other then ferrari..
So? Perhaps that means Ferrari did nothing wrong. I think you're the one blinded by obsessiveness with McLaren.

In soccer, one player awards BY CHOICE a penalty/free throw to the other team by making a foul. Lewis had NO CHOICE but to go to the grass or hit Kimi.
You can't distinguish it that way. In every sport, soccer, basketball, cricket, netball, rugby, Aussie rules, well-meaning actions causing disadvantage must still be penalised. Illegal contact not resulting in disadvantage is almost never penalised. The test is always one of advantage/disavantage. The stewards determined that Hamilton got an advantage that he maintained even though he gave the position back. That was a determination of fact. McLaren can appeal, and they can still win, but at the moment, the stewards have told us what happened, and we've got to believe them.

[Rift]

I would feel like Hamilton gave back the spot, but did not deserve that win. To me, alongside Bourdais, Raikkonen was the man of the race and the honorable winner of it.

Ah common that's a bit harsh wouldn't you say the kid did good despite me being a Mclaren fan theirs no question Kimi dominated that race although I really do feel for Kimi going out the way he did sucked but he fell apart a bit at the end with the weather changing which gave Lewis that slight edge he needed.

[arguapacha]

^^^ I wouldnt expect anything different from a Ferrari fan lol .. Hamilton gave teh spot back got it abck and won... Penalties are only given to other teams other then ferrari..

The fact that I do not like Hamilton or any other driver but that I like Ferrari, does not mean I will be totally sided to favour Ferrari always. I just said that, in my opinion (biased and without any way to access that data) Hamilton deserved the place after cutting the chicane, but Raikkonen drove an amazing race and deserved the win. It's a pity for the accident, but that's the way it is.

What it is clear is your anti-Ferrari obsession, which does not help either.

[frnk]

A disappointing end to a great race for alot of reasons, first of all the coverage was very lackluster, spending the last lap or so watching Hamilton drive around the track at 40 mph while Heidfeld and Alonso are overtaking 2 cars in one corner. Makes you wonder if the directors that Bernie hires actually watch or even like motorsport.

As for the contraversy, I am a Kimi (not Ferrari) fan and I was very excited for him and also for a close championship when he took the lead early on, when Hamilton made his pass into T1 I was very dubious as to whether or not he had yeilded sufficiently to balance out his cut of the bus stop. Looking back I still don't think the incident is clear cut in itself and there is very little precedent in recent seasons (the incident with Schumi above was in slightly difference circumstances ie. de la Rosa took the position eventually). I would also argue that the 6 km/h speed differential was slightly negated by the fact that Hamilton was immediately able to jump back in Raikkonen's tow and also by the fact that he interfered with Raikkonen's line into the braking zone for T1, two factors which contributed to Hamilton being able to outbrake Raikkonen and retake the lead.

The situation with Rosberg and the yellow flags is again not completely black and white, Hamilton was, by his own admission, on his way off the track already when he encountered Rosberg, Raikkonen simply threaded his way past Rosberg to take the position. I don't think this can really be considered an intentional overtaking manouver.

In the end the FIA's decision was always going to be contravertial one way or another, my only real problem with it is that they took so long to make it. As with Massa in Valencia the air of indecision around these rulings, especially when Ferrari are involved, breeds suspicion and conspiracy theories and they really need to take a look at increasing their transparency. In recent years again and again it has become a problem when the FIA adopts the position that they know better than everyone watching the race because they have access to data that none of us plebs are allowed to see. Highlighted by Max Moseley's chat with Martin Brundle on the grid of Monza in 2006 when his entire argument was based around some magic data which to this day has not seen the light of day, obviously in this situation contraversy will ensue. If the FIA is making fair and impartial decisions then they have little to fear by increasing the transparency of their investigations and publishing the data which proves their case not only to the teams but to the fans who are ultimately writing their paycheques.

Another sad day for F1 as a sport and also for the funniest guy in the paddock.

Kimi- I was having a shit - YouTube

[mts6800]

I watched the video and here is what I saw.

When Lewis backed off letting Kimi be in front Lewis immediately tucked in behind Kimi resulting in Lewis being closer to Kimi than he would have been had he followed Kimi through the corner. As soon as he tucked in behind Kimi Lewis was on the gas to stay on Kimi until he could pull out and pass. Had Lewis followed Kimi through the corner it's very unlikely he could have gotten close enough to slipstream and pass.

As to the incident at the chicane, after the race, Ron Dennis said Lewis was ahead at the chicane. Looking at the video shows that Lewis was never ahead at the chicane. Kimi went wide at the chicane and Lewis ran out of room. That can happen when a driver tries to pass on the outside of a turn, that's racing.

What Lewis should have done is stay back until Kimi exited the next corner and there would have been nothing to investigate and Lewis would have passed Kimi before the end of the race.

[frnk]

As to the incident at the chicane, after the race, Ron Dennis said Lewis was ahead at the chicane. Looking at the video shows that Lewis was never ahead at the chicane. Kimi went wide at the chicane and Lewis ran out of room. That can happen when a driver tries to pass on the outside of a turn, that's racing.


Although I agree with you regarding Hamilton's actions after cutting the chicane I think it is pretty obvious Raikkonen pushed Hamilton out of the corner intentionally which he has every right to do. Hamilton accepted that when he tried to make the pass down the outside and acting like Raikkonen did anything against the rules into that final chicane is ludicrous.

[p. k. allen]

To me it was fair, and this is one I really wanted Kimi to win. I was excited for him after taking the lead at the start, and it was great to see he was clearly trying hard for the win. His driving may have been a little dirty but he earned my respect for his determination and I think he proved he still has that passion for racing people have been saying he'd lost. I was crushed watching him hit that wall, but I like how he was out there to win or lose.
And well done to Heidfeld, it was like Reubens at silverstone. Heidfeld seems to have a thing for taking 2 cars in one corner! lol didn't he do it twice in germany?

[SHIZL]

i dont think lewis should have been penalized for that, ive been watching racing along time and never seen anybody cut a chicane give the position back then repass and get penalized for it if anything kimi running into the back of lewis in the hairpin seems more like a infraction compared to what lewis did which was a # 2 driver trying to take him out haha, and kimi dominating that race would of been if lewis not catching back up to him. i dont know i could be wrong but dominating would not have the comp not trying to pass u on the outside. kimi can run into the back of whoever he wants and not get penalized and when heikki runs into the back of massa i hope he doesent get penalized either

[DeMoN]

So? Perhaps that means Ferrari did nothing wrong. I think you're the one blinded by obsessiveness with McLaren.


You can't distinguish it that way. In every sport, soccer, basketball, cricket, netball, rugby, Aussie rules, well-meaning actions causing disadvantage must still be penalised. Illegal contact not resulting in disadvantage is almost never penalised. The test is always one of advantage/disavantage. The stewards determined that Hamilton got an advantage that he maintained even though he gave the position back. That was a determination of fact. McLaren can appeal, and they can still win, but at the moment, the stewards have told us what happened, and we've got to believe them.

So watch the video I posted where Schumi skips the corner and still is not penalized. That happened 2006 tell me why no drive thru penalty?

[DeMoN]

The fact that I do not like Hamilton or any other driver but that I like Ferrari, does not mean I will be totally sided to favour Ferrari always. I just said that, in my opinion (biased and without any way to access that data) Hamilton deserved the place after cutting the chicane, but Raikkonen drove an amazing race and deserved the win. It's a pity for the accident, but that's the way it is.

What it is clear is your anti-Ferrari obsession, which does not help either.

go to planetf1.com and read around. There is a forum. Even ferrari fans admit that this decision was BS

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3261_4114467,00.html a well written document. Planetf1 is not pro ferrari or pro any team. They have several different writers and info is posted there real fast. I am refreshing that all the time to see the decision of the appeal.

[frnk]

Raikkonen hit Hamilton in T1 because Hamilton had poor mid corner speed not to mention Raikkonen stood to lose alot more (ie. his front wing) than Hamilton did if the collision had been stronger.

[DeMoN]

To me it was fair, and this is one I really wanted Kimi to win. I was excited for him after taking the lead at the start, and it was great to see he was clearly trying hard for the win. His driving may have been a little dirty but he earned my respect for his determination and I think he proved he still has that passion for racing people have been saying he'd lost. I was crushed watching him hit that wall, but I like how he was out there to win or lose.
And well done to Heidfeld, it was like Reubens at silverstone. Heidfeld seems to have a thing for taking 2 cars in one corner! lol didn't he do it twice in germany?

I wanted Kimi to win too (Kimi is my favorite driver even though I am a McLaren fan) so that Massa would take 2nd driver spot in Ferrari. Wanting something to happen should not blind your decision of what is fair and what is not. If penalizing Lewis was the correct thing to do, they should have done it for next race, not tell him "hand over the trophy sorry"

[frnk]

So watch the video I posted where Schumi skips the corner and still is not penalized. That happened 2006 tell me why no drive thru penalty?

de la Rosa took the position 1 lap later, if he doesn't retain the position overall and it doesn't effect the outcome of the race then why should he be penalized?

[frnk]

I wanted Kimi to win too (Kimi is my favorite driver even though I am a McLaren fan) so that Massa would take 2nd driver spot in Ferrari. Wanting something to happen should not blind your decision of what is fair and what is not. If penalizing Lewis was the correct thing to do, they should have done it for next race, not tell him "hand over the trophy sorry"

I don't think a grid penalty for next race would really be correct in this situation, irrelevant of whether or not Hamilton deserved the penalty, if he did fail to sufficiently cede the line back to Raikkonen then his actions directly affected the outcome of the race so when a penalty is applied it should reflect this and apply to that race, not the next one.

[Mattk]

That happened 2006 tell me why no drive thru penalty?
Well, I'd distinguish that on the facts. Schumacher was leading when he cut the chicane. De la Rosa had not overtaken him yet.

[p. k. allen]

I wanted Kimi to win too (Kimi is my favorite driver even though I am a McLaren fan) so that Massa would take 2nd driver spot in Ferrari. Wanting something to happen should not blind your decision of what is fair and what is not. If penalizing Lewis was the correct thing to do, they should have done it for next race, not tell him "hand over the trophy sorry" ^ sorry I meant I believe Lewis' move was fair, not the decision, even though its one I wanted Kimi to win, so yeah, your safe to say even Ferrari fans think its harsh. Taking away his victory after being on the podium is too cruel.

[DeMoN]

de la Rosa took the position 1 lap later, if he doesn't retain the position overall and it doesn't effect the outcome of the race then why should he be penalized?

Kimi spun and crashed a few seconds later, why should lewis be penalized if the outcome of the race was the same?

[Mattk]

I think the bigger issue is that Schumacher did not gain an advantage from the corner-cutting.

[frnk]

Kimi spun and crashed a few seconds later, why should lewis be penalized if the outcome of the race was the same?

Because the overtaking move that put Hamilton in the lead affected the next lap which defined the outcome of the race. Essentially, if Raikkonen had been able to resume the lead fully (instead of only just clearing Hamilton at the start of the braking zone, which is what happened) then Raikkonen may not have spun.

I am not attempting to defend Schumacher and in that case he was definately breaking the rules but in the end he did not benefit, Hamilton did.

[Pokiou]

The fact that I do not like Hamilton or any other driver but that I like Ferrari, does not mean I will be totally sided to favour Ferrari always. I just said that, in my opinion (biased and without any way to access that data) Hamilton deserved the place after cutting the chicane, but Raikkonen drove an amazing race and deserved the win. It's a pity for the accident, but that's the way it is.

What it is clear is your anti-Ferrari obsession, which does not help either.


Its fans like me that bring fairness to a sport where there isn't any..not fans like you.. your a hypocrite and your basis is based on you being a Ferrari Fan! My opinion are based on being a F1 Fan.

[frnk]

Fans have very little to do with the FIA or perceived "fairness" in F1, this was pretty obvious when Max Mosley managed to keep his position following that Nazi orgy scandal.

[fordgt84]

i keep reading that lewis didn't back off long enough after letting kimi pass... what was he supposed to do? park the damn car have a smoke then say "i think it's alright if i started chasing him again...i've given him enough time". It's been said b4, hamilton gained an unfair advantage then gave it back by letting kimi pass... is there a rule that says you're not allowed to immediately step on the gas after letting someone through and then outbrake them going into the next corner? can it be found in that "secret data file"? seriously, this is so unbelievably unfair

[SafirXP]

being a huge hamilton fan it was heart breaking to hear the news of his punishment/demotion. nothing to do for mclaren or lewis other than wait for the appeal's results. if its successful great otherwise tough luck, time to move on. great race for massa in the end, the championship has been almost handed to him on a platter!

[uk_phil]

I have been a huge ferrari fan since i first started watching at a young age (the berger and alesi days).
I am embarrassed by this decision and penalty. Watching the incident live it didn't even enter my mind that Lewis could be facing an investigation for a contravention of the rules. As a Ferrari supporter it is going to be difficult to watch the next few races knowing that the championship points positions have been unfairly skewed in Ferrari's favour.

[Jasoos]

By the way, why did Heiki stop?

[hymera003]

Heikki stopped with gearbox problems.

[arguapacha]

Its fans like me that bring fairness to a sport where there isn't any..not fans like you.. your a hypocrite and your basis is based on you being a Ferrari Fan! My opinion are based on being a F1 Fan.
Ohh my.... everyone please bow to guru Pokiou.

[mts6800]

The ruling: http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43853

"The stewards, having received a report from the race director and having met with the drivers and team managers involved, have...determine a breach of the regulations has been committed by the competitor and impose the penalty referred to," said an FIA statement.

Hamilton was deemed to have "cut the chicane and gained an advantage", thereby breaching Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.


What will be appealed: http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43860

"Although the British driver let Raikkonen back through to the lead of the race after rejoining the track, it is understood the stewards felt he had still benefited from going off-track as he repassed the Finn almost immediately at the La Source hairpin."


It could be argued that Lewis would have passed Kimi anyway, that Lewis is better in the wet than Kimi, all sorts of "could have" arguments can be dreamed up, but these arguments are pointless because they didn't occur. What did occur is that Lewis passed Kimi at La Source and a plausable reason is that he gained advantage when he cut the chicane. Lewis was very close to Kimi at the line, a position you would not expect him to be had he followed Kimi through the chicane.

The position of the stewards is presented above and it seems to me the appeal will have to show that Lewis would have passed Kimi at La Source anyway, I think it will be difficult to show that.

The whole incident is most unfortunate as everyone has an opinion, often clouded by their own person wishes and prejudices. It's unfortunate that Lewis didn't give Kimi La Source then attacked.

On a different subject I was amazed that Ferrari didn't pit Massa for inters with 2 laps to go. Conditions were rapidly getting worse and it could have moved Massa up. Heidfield pitted for inters with 2 laps to go and came 3rd. He did benefit from Kimi crashing out but at the end the inters were good for 30 seconds a lap.

[admcewen]

This is interesting....
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

[mts6800]

This is interesting....
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

Thanks for that. Allen got the analysis right then rationalized Lewis' action, then tossed an orange, (the European GP), in with the apples.

[styla21]

This is interesting....
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

Great article!
Its good to see some depth to his logic; and should be read by everyone commenting in this thread. :-)

[Pokiou]

Ohh my.... everyone please bow to guru Pokiou.


while your down there clean my shoes bitch!

[Carbodiox]

Pokiou just calm down man. You're way out of the line..

[Pokiou]

There is NO rule stating that when you allow a car to pass you that you need to give him a certain amount of lead before you can you prance back onto him..

unfortuantly they decided that it was unfair to KIMI cause his car was slower lol. . thats pathetic, there is no logic in there decision but only favortism.


Btw just to clear stuff up. Im a RED BULL supporter but my second team is McLaren.

[SHIZL]

so kimi running into the back of the point leader had more to lose by his front wing or the point leaders flat tire.and how did the stewards think that kimi didnt get in front of lewis if kimi was on the inside of lewis at the line at a faster speed then lewis then at the corner on the outside. there needs to be some big changes to f1 cause this is a feeble attempt at at saying there will be no passing of ferrari. kimi looks good as support of massa but the fia is the ultimate support of massa and the prancing horse

[styla21]

There is NO rule stating that when you allow a car to pass you that you need to give him a certain amount of lead before you can you prance back onto him..

unfortuantly they decided that it was unfair to KIMI cause his car was slower lol. . thats pathetic, there is no logic in there decision but only favortism.

Pok, you should stop popping off about irrelevent points.
The facts are, that the stewards deemed Hamilton to gain an advantage by cutting the chicane. You say that Hamilton gave his position back - he didn't, he was on a superior racing line and immediately into Kimi's slipstream. The start/finish speed is irrelevant as Hamilton was in a superior position to attack the next corner, which he wouldn't have been if he hadn't cut the previous chicane.

All of the "he would have won anyway", "Hamilton is superior in the wet", "Kimi crashed anyway" is all completely irrelevant - that didn't happen and therefor can't be argued.

[Pokiou]

Mate go read the article and you'll see where i pulled the irrelevent points. Cause the IRRELEVENT points is how the stewards came to the conclusion that Hamilton should of been fined!

But other then that i think you missed mark mate. :P teasing mate

[Mattk]

Let's think about what happens when someone misses an overtaking manouevre. The driver tucks back behind the chased driver for another go later on. That's just what happens. Hamilton didn't tuck back behind Raikonnen. The FIA has deemed that to be maintaining an advantage. I think that's tough, but not incorrect. Certainly not enough to accuse the FIA of making stuff up to help Ferrari.

[Pokiou]

Mattk they have done all year long.. Not impossing penalties to ferrari or anything else. I understand what your saying, but i feel like you havent watched the race proppely. Your stating that he didnt tuck behind him.. HE did tuck behind him.. i dont know mate.. I think your just trying to prove a point that has no point while the rest of the F1 community has agreed that the call was bogus.

But cheers for your input.

[Mattk]

He only tucked behind Raikkonen briefly when he was switching to pass on the inside. He went down the straight essentially alongside Raikonnen. Like I said, tough call, but that's the way it rolls.

[Pokiou]

There is no rule stating where he cant be and where he has to be in order to resume racing. Nor is ther a rule stating HOW much of a lead he has to give the car before he can accelerate.. hence why the call was bogus and un justified. I know excatly what your say... but you need to understand what are saying which i believe you now do.

[SHIZL]

kimi was able to go from the rightside of lewis to the leftside with lewis behind him didnt see alongside him for the the essential straight bogus call why wouldnt they give him drive thru during the race and then kimi running into the back of him eihter way good race we saw the real winner on the grandstand. kimi really felll off in the last stint and should of never let him catch up then when lewis did kimi essentially did what any support would do and tried to cause a error. should be good at monza hopefully heikki repays massa with the same kind of gesture

[fordgt84]

you know they keep on saying he cut the chicane, why aren't they concerned with why he cut the chicane? if u watch the racing lines they normally take going through that chicane, u will see clearly that kimi intentionally ran wide in order to keep hamilton out of the way. now it's kimi's job to defend the lead- fair enough - but then u have hamilton who's left with; either running into kimi's car, braking and probably still making contact with kimi since he's already squeezing the living daylights out of him, or avoiding him completely by cutting the chicane...the safest option.

and about gaining an advantage from kimi's slipstream, lewis was barely directly behind him for more than a second ... the only time he was behind him was that brief moment when kimi went infront of him and lewis moved out to get the inside line... watch
YouTube

it's been 2 days since it happened and i can't believe i'm still upset about it

[DeMoN]

Onboard
YouTube



Stewart: F1 needs full-time stewards

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4120502,00.html

[styla21]

Demon that's a really cool vid.. Thanks.
God kimi was wrestling with that wheel at the end!

[bluedemon]

I don't normally post here but even I have to comment about the apparent screw job that the FIA pulled after the race. I am glad that Mclaren have decided to appeal this decision cause I don't see how Hamiliton avoiding a wreck with Kimi by cutting the chicane and then giving the place back and then taking it back again can be considered an advantage in the rain no less. So hopefully the appeal will be heard and the correct decision will be granted.

[SHIZL]

Martin Whitmarsh added: "From the pit wall, we then asked Race Control to confirm that they were comfortable that Lewis had allowed Kimi to repass, and they confirmed twice that they believed that the position had been given back in a manner that was 'okay'.

"If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8344.html

[Mattk]

There is no rule stating where he cant be and where he has to be in order to resume racing. Nor is ther a rule stating HOW much of a lead he has to give the car before he can accelerate.. hence why the call was bogus and un justifiedI'm not sure you can make that connection. There are not rules for everything. The general rule is that you can't gain an advantage through non-legal racing manoeuvres. Everything else is a determination of fact by stewards. They may ultimately proved wrong on appeal, but that does not mean that the process they used was fundamentally wrong.

[mts6800]

This is a test to see if anyone understands the rules.

If you cut a chicane and gain and advantage you will be penalized. Consider a car that is 0.300 seconds behind going into a chicane and braking late, missing the chicane re-entering the track 0.050 seconds behind the leading car. In this scenario he didn't even pass and have to back off to let the leading car ahead. So, did he gain an advantage by cutting the chicane?

[DeMoN]

longer onboard http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ovii_wwwformulamagcom-hamiltonkimi_sport

you can see how hamilton is catching up to him when the rain is dropping.

Appeal will be heard after the next GP (if at all!!!) yes IF AT ALL. Regulations seem to say that they cannot appeal drive-through penalties. Since this is a drive through penalty awarded AFTER the race, mclaren stands optimistic though no one knows.

[faustini]

i think that was a though call to make, but i don't agree with the decision, i would probably make the rule more especific so it be easier to judge future sitiuations, and give hamilton and all the other drivers a warning to be careful in similar situations.

but worse than that i think was in the GP2 race where B.Senna was taken away a probable victory in the feature race.

it's just bad for the sport and fans, see the stewards become more "important" than the race, on the decision for the winner.

[mts6800]

Appeal will be heard after the next GP (if at all!!!) yes IF AT ALL. Regulations seem to say that they cannot appeal drive-through penalties. Since this is a drive through penalty awarded AFTER the race, mclaren stands optimistic though no one knows.

The Sporting Regulations:

16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident :

a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping ;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver’s next Event.

However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.

Personally I hope they hear the appeal as it will serve to settle the issue; however, reading the Sporting Regulations would indicate that McLaren's optimism may be a bit 'optimistic'.

Article 16.4b) talks about serving the penalty, i.e. within 3 laps, no work on the car while the penalty is served, etc.

The stewards would have discounted Lewis' position when he left the track since his position is why he left the track. I have no idea what data was available to the stewards to arrive at their conclusion, we may never know but we do know that the stewards decided that Lewis gained an advangtage. With such a close call the smart thing would have been to let Kimi have the next corner and then attack.

[mts6800]

it's just bad for the sport and fans, see the stewards become more "important" than the race, on the decision for the winner.

The stewards aren't more important than the race and they don't "decide" the winner. They enforce the rules. There has long been a call for having "professional stewards" that go to all the races and are more knowledgeable than the host country's stewards. Penalties or disqualifications after the end of the race are unavoidable.

[SHIZL]

The FIA’s International Court of Appeal has thrown out McLaren’s case against Lewis Hamilton’s recent Belgian Grand Prix penalty on the grounds that their appeal was inadmissible.

Hamilton had 25 seconds added to his Spa race time for gaining an advantage by cutting a chicane whilst fighting Ferrari’s Kimi Raikkonen for the lead. This was given in place of a drive-through penalty, as the incident occurred late in the race, and drive-throughs are not susceptible to appeal under the International Sporting Code.

McLaren had appealed the stewards' decision, which saw Hamilton drop from first to third in the Belgian results, on the grounds that their driver had relinquished the lead back to Raikkonen immediately following the incident in order to negate any advantage. They also cited the fact that on two occasions race control had told the team that Hamilton’s conduct appeared to be within the rules.

However, the Court rejected McLaren’s right to appeal, citing Paragraph 5 of Article 152 of the International Sporting Code, which states: “Penalties of driving through or stopping in pit lanes together with certain penalties specified in FIA Championship regulations where this is expressly stated, are not susceptible to appeal.”

The Court's decision means Hamilton’s championship lead remains at just a single point over Ferrari’s Felipe Massa, who inherited the victory at Spa.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8417.html

[Mattk]

To be honest, I think it would have been a good idea to have held the appeal to quell disputes. But the rules are the rules.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

Now just how much did Ferrari have to pay for this "decision"..? Took a full day to get to it, so they must have negotiated hard.

Same when the penalty was initially handed out - two hours AFTER THE RACE??? During a race this happens within 10 minutes..... Lewis wouldn't have been on the top podium spot when everything would have gone right.

But again, i guess Ferrari needed to negotiate for the penalty (hence an "undisputable" drive-through).

F1 seems rigged like the Thai government lottery used to be. I seriously hope for a Ferrari double-engine-failure in Singapore, and Lewis winning it. Gosh and i used to be a Ferrari fan.........

Thanh

[Mattk]

1. If the race is over, you can afford to take your time. The trophy presentation is for TV and Ecclestone would not have wanted any stewards' inquiries to cause any delay.
2. Things take time to process. This is not the weekly short appeals court for summary convictions. Besides, the news report was only a day after the hearing. Seems pretty pretty efficient to me.
3. Where is the evidence Ferrari was even involved in this whole process? From start to finish, it has been McLaren v FIA.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

Of course it was McLaren vs. FIA.... but has anyone seen the back-end? How come the move (short-cutting the chicane, then letting Raikkonen overtake again) is OK'ed TWICE at first and then, suddenly and two hours later, Lewis is penalized with an "undisputable" drive-through?

Could it not be that Ferrari complained loud and long enough (or simply handed over enough cash) at FIA to have them change their mind (see previous "OK" for the move), now that Raikkonen did not finish and they surely didn't want Lewis to get too big a points advantage?

Someone said "FIA" stands for "Ferrari Instant Assistance". Not my words, but the more you look a tthings, the more it appears tro be true.

Don't get me wrong - i like Lewis for a couple of reasons (bloody good race driver, handsome as heck and first black driver on top of it all) but i watch F1 to see the best RACER win. Not to hear in the news for whom some judge has decided. I don't mind that bes RACER to sit in a McLaren, a Ferrari or a Force India car, as long as he won by driving his distance faster than anyone else.

Best regards....

Thanh

[Thanh-BKK]

And here we got it..... according to German newspaper "Bild":

"In einem irren Finale gewinnt Lewis Hamilton zunächst den Großen Preis von Belgien. Doch nach einem Protest von Ferrari wird ihm der Sieg später aberkannt"

"At first, Lewis Hamilton wins the Belgian Grand Prix in a crazy final. BUT AFTER A PROTEST FROM FERRARI HIS VICTORY IS DENIED LATER"

........

Thanh

[styla21]

Thanh, what's your beef? Of course Ferrari were going to protest - they felt Kimi had been hard-done by Lewis's move.
The FIA has the dispute with Mclaren, which is ultimately resolved in court yesterday.

Are you male or female? Commenting on Lewis Hamilton being "handsome" is... strange?

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi :)

I replied to Mattk's question "where is the evidence that Ferrari was even involved in the whole process". Until now i didn't have such evidence - but suddenly there it is in the German news. So FIA first said "the move was ok as per the rules", then Ferrari protests, and of course Ferrari gets their way and now we see what happened.

Michael Schumacher pulling a similar stunt (and NOT letting his opponent pass again!) and NOT getting any form of penalty says it all, doesn't it?

I am male and gay. Any other questions about why i find Lewis to be the most handsome of all F1 drivers? If Narain would still be driving he'd be "the one".

Regards....

Thanh

[styla21]

Hi :)

I replied to Mattk's question "where is the evidence that Ferrari was even involved in the whole process". Until now i didn't have such evidence - but suddenly there it is in the German news. So FIA first said "the move was ok as per the rules", then Ferrari protests, and of course Ferrari gets their way and now we see what happened.

Michael Schumacher pulling a similar stunt (and NOT letting his opponent pass again!) and NOT getting any form of penalty says it all, doesn't it?

I am male and gay. Any other questions about why i find Lewis to be the most handsome of all F1 drivers? If Narain would still be driving he'd be "the one".

Regards....

Thanh

Haha. Well that explains it.
On topic: I find the Ferrari hating old and tiresome. There is no benefit for the FIA to extend privilege or exception to Ferrari. They do not control F1, the FIA, nor do they have relations to CVC the majority owner of the commercial rights of F1.

Using examples from years ago is irrelevant. As long as there is continuum throughout each season, which there has been, there is little room for outcry.

Btw: Pokiou got banned? I wondered why the Mclaren fan-boy team had died down a little. Is he to be resurrected?

[Thanh-BKK]

Hello again.

I am NOT a McLaren fanboy. I am a Lewis fanboy. My favourite TEAM is still, believe it or not, Ferrari. Still i don't like any team, and be it my favourite, to be favoured by FIA. I rather have an underdog win than my favourite "bumped" to top spot.

And it all started with Michael Schumacher, by the way - i'm German and when this "new German sensation" appeared in F1, i started watching the races. That was when he drove for Benetton still. And when he switched to Ferrari, that first disastrous season.... oh my, ask my ex-BF about me getting up in the middle of the night to watch the overseas races, Schu being out in the first couple of laps with yet another engine blowing up on him and me still glued to the screen...... cheering the OTHER Ferrari :)

Personally i think Schu is an arrogant a-hole but he's a superb driver, in any car. Stick him in a Force India and they will be world champion in a couple of seasons. Which by the way i would welcome - i like small teams winning, bravo Sebastian!

But right now, Lewis is "my boy" (best driver on the grid AND a cutie!) and i can't stand him being penalized in order to push another team to the top. Let's see - my prediction is that he (Lewis) will lose the chamionship by a point or two again due to some BS decision by some race "officials".

Best regards.....

Thanh

[SHIZL]

ferrari lawyers were there the last two days

[styla21]

ferrari lawyers were there the last two days
Proof? I wasn't aware of that. :?:

[blue8]

The Commissione Sportiva Automobilista Italiana (CSAI) notified the Court on 12 September 2008 of the request of its licence-holder Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro (“Ferrari”) to be heard in the present case in accordance with article 21 of the Rules of the International Court of Appeal. The Court therefore heard the presentations and considered the arguments presented by Ferrari.for Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro:
Nigel Tozzi QC (Lawyer)
Stefano Domenicali (Team Principal)
Luca Baldisserri (Team Manager)
Massimiliano Maestretti (General Counsel)
Andrea Fioravanti (Legal representative)
Henry Peter (Legal representative)

Full judgment:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70793

So from what I understand, Ferrari requested to be there

[styla21]

Yeap, I read the judgement. Here's the most important part:

"On the substance 28. In view of the foregoing, it follows that there is no need to examine the substance of the appeal submitted by McLaren.
On those grounds,
THE FIA INTERNATIONAL COURT OF APPEAL
Hereby:
1. Declares the appeal inadmissible;"

Ferrari were within their rights to defend their logic behind their original grounds for objection to the passing move, and request FIA review.

If the situation had been reversed, and Mclaren felt hard done by, it is fair to assume Mclaren would have objected also.
The judgements been made, can we get on with the Singapore GP discussions now! I heard there are thunderstorms predicted :twisted:

[blue8]

Yeah glad we can move on now to Singapore! Here' a nice little preview of the circuit. You've probably seen it already but here anyway
http://www.redbullracing.com/4th-Sector/Webber-Singapore/

And yeah, thunderstorms are predicted for the entire race weekend!!!:twisted:

[mts6800]

And here we got it..... according to German newspaper "Bild":

"In einem irren Finale gewinnt Lewis Hamilton zunächst den Großen Preis von Belgien. Doch nach einem Protest von Ferrari wird ihm der Sieg später aberkannt"

"At first, Lewis Hamilton wins the Belgian Grand Prix in a crazy final. BUT AFTER A PROTEST FROM FERRARI HIS VICTORY IS DENIED LATER"

Thanh
Firstly, any team can request the stewards to make an investigation. The stewards can take it upon themselves to make an investigation. I can see no relavance that Ferrari requested an investigation.



I replied to Mattk's question "where is the evidence that Ferrari was even involved in the whole process". Until now i didn't have such evidence - but suddenly there it is in the German news. So FIA first said "the move was ok as per the rules", then Ferrari protests, and of course Ferrari gets their way and now we see what happened.

Thanh

The FIA didn't say "the move was ok as per the rules"...

Ron Dennis' words on ITV at Spa when asked about the investigation underway involving Hamilton and Raikkonen will show that Ron knew the Race Director doesn't make these decisions:

Ron Dennis' words: "We checked with Charlie, of course Charlie can only give an opinion, he's not the stewards, but he gave an opinion that we had complied, probably to the regulations..."

Charlie Whiting is the Race Director not one of the stewards.


This is now the 4th penalty awarded to Hamilton this season. In hindsight Hamilton would be ahead if they had let the Spa result stand and awarded a 10 spot grid penalty at the next race!