Mosley is gonna walk

[fordgt84]

Today the world's governing motorsport bodies have met to vote on the future of FIA President Max Mosley following the Nazi orgy scandal, and we can now reveal that the resilient Max has won the vote.

140 motoring organisations from 96 countries convened in Paris today and the secret ballot went in favour of Mosley by 103 to 55 with seven abstentions and four invalid votes. The delegate from each body was called individually to a put their sealed envelope containing their vote in the ballot box which was then counted by FIA's legal department privately.

Reactions are sure to come in from all directions over the next few days but ADAC has quickly responding to the vote by saying it views the vote “ with regret and incredulity”.
The scandal first broke back in March when a British Newspaper uncovered footage showing Max Mosley participating in a Nazi style orgy, an allegation he has consistently denied saying their was no racist activities involved.



from: http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080603.012/mosley-wins-crucial-vote-at-fia-meeting


damn money really does rule the world :banghead::puke:

[Carbodiox]

I am happy cos that's gonna prevent Bernie from takin absolute control over F1 ( broadcast rights, tracks, ads and whole organisation) And pluralism of athorities is always a good thing . That is what was it all about

[graywolf624]

damn money really does rule the world
While Im not a Mosley fan, I have to disagree with your setiment. What in the entire incident showed it was nazi.. It could be just about any prison scene in the world. Sick.. yes.. But for those of you always arguing about privacy your showing a really poor double standard if you think the mans twisted private tastes should effect his job.

[fordgt84]

update: http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080603.019/after-fia-yes-vote-mosley-fallout-begins


Max Mosley’s steadfast insistence on staying on as President of the FIA may cause a split in the organisation. Following Mosley’s win at the FIA’s headquarters in Paris, at least two major affiliated members have pointed towards what could end up as an empty FIA. The 50 million-member-strong American Automobile Association’s President Robert Darbelnet told the BBC right after the meeting: “We should not rush to judgement on this. But one of the potential ramifications is the division or a split way from the organisation that might in fact provide an opportunity for like-minded clubs to find a representative body in a different form.”

Worse to come was from the ADAC (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080603.012/adac-withdraws-from-fia-after-mosley-wins-crucial-vote-at-fia-meeting), Germany’s ruling motoring organisation, which has now announced it is cutting all ties with the FIA “as long as Max Mosley holds the top FIA office of president”. The ADAC, Europe’s claimed largest FIA member, will no longer be part of the FIA following this decision.

"We view with regret and incredulity the FIA general assembly's decision in Paris, confirming Max Mosley in office as FIA president," said a spokesman.
"This is a reason for Europe's largest automobile club to let its functions and co-operation in FIA working groups rest at world level.”
Britain’s Motor Sports (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080603.019/after-fia-yes-vote-mosley-fallout-begins#) Association reckons this is water under the bridge now, no point in crying over spilled milk. “The Motor Sports Association respects the decision of the FIA General Assembly concerning President Mosley and considers that it is now time to move on and for the sport to pull together,” the statement from MSA read. “The Motor Sports Association looks forward to continuing to work constructively as an important member of the FIA in the future.”

The fallout will be felt in the next few days, especially as Canada comes up on the Formula One calendar (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080603.019/after-fia-yes-vote-mosley-fallout-begins#). It is understood that the one-club-one-vote policy was the reason some of the biggest voters, which were said to be in favour of Mosley stepping down, were outvoted. Mosley apparently lobbied the smaller members whose votes weigh the same as the rest, into keeping him in office.

A few interested parties have thrown in words of their own:

“We (British Racing Drivers' Club) really need an organisation like the FIA to help us protect our position so that we can have reasonable terms from the commercial rights holders. It's very difficult, when you have a president who is as controversial as Max is, to argue the case for funding for Formula One (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080603.019/after-fia-yes-vote-mosley-fallout-begins#) from the government if we need to.” – Damon Hill, President BRDC.

“…today’s vote of confidence in Mr Mosley does not support the values held by many autoclubs worldwide. The AA accordingly distances itself from the outcome of the vote.” – Rob Handfield-Jones, AA South Africa.

“This is a sad day for motorsport because this is the beginning of the end of the FIA. The damage done is irreparable and we will now see the demise of the FIA.” – Paul Stoddard, former Minardi boss.

“I am not quite surprised but I am not happy. I voted against.” Guido Van (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080603.019/after-fia-yes-vote-mosley-fallout-begins#) Woerkom, Royal Dutch Touring Club.

“There were many people who didn't want to speak to him before. I can't think they will want to speak to him now as a result of what has happened. Nothing has changed in that respect. Just because he gets a few clubs from Africa voting for him will not make the King of Spain want to shake his hand." – Bernie Ecclestone (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080603.019/after-fia-yes-vote-mosley-fallout-begins#).

[fordgt84]

While Im not a Mosley fan, I have to disagree with your setiment. What in the entire incident showed it was nazi.. It could be just about any prison scene in the world. Sick.. yes.. But for those of you always arguing about privacy your showing a really poor double standard if you think the mans twisted private tastes should effect his job.

i wouldn't call it a double standard, i would just say the difference is he doesn't know where to draw the line... i mean who cares if he's a sadomasochist (let those hos beat him up senseless if that's what he likes), or if he was unfaithful to his wife, men do it all the time, and men in power are especially prone to doing so... it's just that the nazi role playing showed he couldn't care less about what happened to the jews during the nazi regime, and despite happening very long ago he has to realize that it's a terribly sensitive issue... that's why the german motor sports body has ended its relation with the fia, they cannot be associated with someone that doesn't care about what happened... it just wont pass in germany

[F250]

i wouldn't call it a double standard, i would just say the difference is he doesn't know where to draw the line... i mean who cares if he's a sadomasochist (let those hos beat him up senseless if that's what he likes), or if he was unfaithful to his wife, men do it all the time, and men in power are especially prone to doing so... it's just that the nazi role playing showed he couldn't care less about what happened to the jews during the nazi regime, and despite happening very long ago he has to realize that it's a terribly sensitive issue... that's why the german motor sports body has ended its relation with the fia, they cannot be associated with someone that doesn't care about what happened... it just wont pass in germany

Let's not forget Mosley's family. His parents were infamous Nazi supporters who were married at Joseph Goebbel's home with Adolph Hilter attending. Max was brought up in a Nazi-loving household by Nazi-loving parents. I strongly suspect his attitude towards Jews is more than "not caring".

As far as your assertion of Nazi tainted actions not passing in Germany, don't be so sure. I've actually stood next to men singing the Horst Wessel song in a bar in Munich a few years ago. Shouts of "Sig heil!" followed and were met with applause from patrons. Wanna bet those guys had SS tattoos under their arms? I saw the same thing in Vienna back when that country's president was a former S.S. officer.

(An FIA) spokesman added that Mr Mosley was not planning to make an appearance in public until the German Grand Prix in July or the Hungarian Grand Prix in early August.

Looks like Max's coming out party will be in Germany. How touching and appropriate.

One last point. 60-70 years ago isn't a long time. I should know. My mother was a Catholic survivor of Auschwitz.

[graywolf624]

... it's just that the nazi role playing showed he couldn't care less about what happened to the jews during the nazi regime, and despite happening very long ago he has to realize that it's a terribly sensitive issue
Again, what in the act made it nazi role playing and not prison role playing. Thats the problem. Your making an assumption.
Even then its not like he blabbed what he was doing. How does being sensitive to something matter when your doing something in private. Does this mean you can never do something that could offend someone even in private. Where do you draw that line? Where is the line between speach on your own time and on company time? Or as some cases in recent memory dictate, is there not one.

[Mattk]

I think we should just respect the individual decisions that were made in favour of Mosley. Yes, he did something silly, and perhaps immoral, but that obviously does not affect his ability to govern the FIA. Bill Clinton was unethical when he had his affair with Monica Lewinsky, but that didn't make him unfit to govern the US. Perhaps his other unethical behaviour did, but not the affair.

[RC45]

I think we should just respect the individual decisions that were made in favour of Mosley. Yes, he did something silly, and perhaps immoral, but that obviously does not affect his ability to govern the FIA. Bill Clinton was unethical when he had his affair with Monica Lewinsky, but that didn't make him unfit to govern the US. Perhaps his other unethical behaviour did, but not the affair.

So the next time any race team breaks the rules of any race serioes they should simply be forgiven - right?

I mean, what does morality or honesty or working within the rules have to do with anyones ability to either manage their race team, prepare a car or win a race?

This 2 faced approach to morality and honesty is a crock of shit at best.

[Mattk]

^It is a crock of shit, but it's the truth. It's the way the world seems to work.

Mosley didn't break any laws or regulations. I personally think he's a crap administrator with an unfortunate poor image, but it seems 105 motorsports organisations disagree with me. They've made their judgment and that's what counts.

[F250]

Again, what in the act made it nazi role playing and not prison role playing. Thats the problem. Your making an assumption.


Gee. You didn't watch the video, did you?

[simona]

If you dont like their decision, boycott them. If enough people do that, they will make changes to please their fans

[fordgt84]

As far as your assertion of Nazi tainted actions not passing in Germany, don't be so sure. I've actually stood next to men singing the Horst Wessel song in a bar in Munich a few years ago. Shouts of "Sig heil!" followed and were met with applause from patrons. Wanna bet those guys had SS tattoos under their arms? I saw the same thing in Vienna back when that country's president was a former S.S. officer.

really? that's crazy, but no doubt those guys were extremists

[fordgt84]

Again, what in the act made it nazi role playing and not prison role playing. Thats the problem. Your making an assumption.
Even then its not like he blabbed what he was doing. How does being sensitive to something matter when your doing something in private. Does this mean you can never do something that could offend someone even in private. Where do you draw that line? Where is the line between speach on your own time and on company time? Or as some cases in recent memory dictate, is there not one.

it's been in the news ever since this thing surfaced, i'm not assuming anything...but if you want to read it as just prison role playing, fine.

i do agree that one's private life should be just that, private... but the fact is we already know how sick this guy is, and the fact that ppl turn their backs on it because they've got interests is just crazy

[Mattk]

^Why is it crazy to act in your own interests? You're saying that motorsports organisations should vote Mosley out even if that harms themselves. You'd be pretty silly to do that.

[graywolf624]

it's been in the news ever since this thing surfaced, i'm not assuming anything...
Yes because they made an assumption.. And yes Ive seen bits of the movie.. lets see.. prison uniform that is similar to a nazi uniform.. check.. one woman speaking german.. check...
Its not a foregone conclusion that it was nazi in nature.

[RC45]

^Why is it crazy to act in your own interests? You're saying that motorsports organisations should vote Mosley out even if that harms themselves. You'd be pretty silly to do that.

Then why have moral standards at all? I mean according to your way of thinking, anything that self-harms shoudl be avoided, even if it involves taking an ethical stand.

You may make a good lawyer one day, but your will be a very poor judge - but sadly that wouldn't stop you from sitting on the bench passing judgement over others morals and ethics one day.

[Mattk]

I never said it was the right thing to do, because I don't think it is. On every level, if I were a motorsports organisation, I woud be incredibly unwilling to associate myself with Mosley. But to avoid self-harm is the way the world works. People are inherently selfish and care more about themselves than others.

If we're talking about moral standards, the motorsports chiefs who voted for Mosley have some, just different. Their version of morality is to do whatever is necessary and within the law to improve motorsports in their given area. If it means keeping Mosley in, so be it. They have moral obligations to members and regional motorsports programmes.

[RC45]

I never said it was the right thing to do, because I don't think it is. On every level, if I were a motorsports organisation, I woud be incredibly unwilling to associate myself with Mosley. But to avoid self-harm is the way the world works. People are inherently selfish and care more about themselves than others.

If we're talking about moral standards, the motorsports chiefs who voted for Mosley have some, just different. Their version of morality is to do whatever is necessary and within the law to improve motorsports in their given area. If it means keeping Mosley in, so be it. They have moral obligations to members and regional motorsports programmes.

And excatly how does their voting to keep mosley in office ethicaly and morally serve regional motorsports programmes and members?

It doesn't.

[fordgt84]

^Why is it crazy to act in your own interests? You're saying that motorsports organisations should vote Mosley out even if that harms themselves. You'd be pretty silly to do that.

i never said it's crazy to act in your own interest, obviously in the business world nothing is more important. however i think in this case associating oneself with a man who has had his image completely ruined isn't necessarily smart as it will do some damage to their image as well

Yes because they made an assumption.. And yes Ive seen bits of the movie.. lets see.. prison uniform that is similar to a nazi uniform.. check.. one woman speaking german.. check...
Its not a foregone conclusion that it was nazi in nature.

come on you're saying all of the media reports were made on assumptions? including the big shots like CNN and BBC? i know about media sensationalism but don't u think that's stretching it a little bit?

[Mattk]

And excatly how does their voting to keep mosley in office ethicaly and morally serve regional motorsports programmes and members?
Because they are duty-bound to safeguard their members' interests, i.e. keep running race events, general management. Perhaps without an effective FIA, it's not going to work as well. 103 organisations thought so. But 55 did not. Keeping Mosley in charge is obviously very important to the interests of a lot of people, although not to others. It's not possible to generalise individual interests.

[RC45]

Because they are duty-bound to safeguard their members' interests, i.e. keep running race events, general management. Perhaps without an effective FIA, it's not going to work as well. 103 organisations thought so. But 55 did not. Keeping Mosley in charge is obviously very important to the interests of a lot of people, although not to others. It's not possible to generalise individual interests.

So you are of the opinion ethics and morals have no place in the world - just self-interest.

Duty-bound to safeguard their members' interests? You still have not explained how abandoning all moral and ethical values is in anyone's "best" interest - other than making sure the voting members have appropriatly sucked up to mosely in fear of retaliation.

Using your logic then every commercial company is duty bound to lie, cheat, steal and rip off as many consumers as possible, including deviously undercutting quality and build integrity of products sold in the singular pursuit of profit with no regard for employee safety and healf nor any concern for local public health and welfare - well, because, ethics and morals do not enter into it - only the duty-bound responsibility to the share-holders only - even to the detriment of all others and all else.

[Mattk]

Using your logic then every commercial company is duty bound to lie, cheat, steal and rip off as many consumers as possible, including deviously undercutting quality and build integrity of products sold in the singular pursuit of profit with no regard for employee safety and healf nor any concern for local public health and welfare - well, because, ethics and morals do not enter into it - only the duty-bound responsibility to the share-holders only - even to the detriment of all others and all else.
Well, actually, that's Milton Friedman's logic. Not mine.

I can't and won't explain why Friedman's approach is good because I don't think it is. But it's what seems to work for a lot of people.

I also read this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/07/privacy.privacy

[graywolf624]

come on you're saying all of the media reports were made on assumptions? including the big shots like CNN and BBC? i know about media sensationalism but don't u think that's stretching it a little bit?
The videos on Youtube.. Watch it for yourself. Then come back and tell me what makes you sure its Nazi. CNN and the BBC have no more information then you or I... So the question is... Are you sure enough from watching the video that it's Nazi to take someones job? Erase what the sensationalism tells you, and look for yourself. If you forgot what you were told to believe, and your personal biases towards Max (which I have as well but I try to be more neutural) I can't say for sure one way or the other.

Using your logic then every commercial company is duty bound to lie, cheat, steal and rip off as many consumers as possible, including deviously undercutting quality and build integrity of products sold in the singular pursuit of profit with no regard for employee safety and healf nor any concern for local public health and welfare

Well, actually, that's Milton Friedman's logic. Not mine.
ERrrr... Not even close to Milton's logic. At least try to pass it off for what it is.
Friedman exposed that a company will act in the publics welfare/health because it will benefit the shareholder. He also exposed laws for anti collusion and such. Apparently lawyers dont have to take economics.

[Mattk]

Well, generally, the Chicago School were of a laissez-faire mindset, opposing external mechanisms of ethics and accountability. A company would act morally if in their best interests (obviously). If not, well, they wouldn't. Responsibility for corporations is basically their legal obligations - the main one being the fiduciary obligation to their shareholders. Friedman also said that corporations were less obliged to be responsible because they were artificial constructs, not people as such. This last point was also the law until the Tesco case.

[graywolf624]

Well, generally, the Chicago School were of a laissez-faire mindset, opposing external mechanisms of ethics and accountability
Within reason I may agree. The Chicago school was still for anti collusion external mechanisms. Its a proven fact that internal mechanisms will regulate more efficiently then external.
Friedman also said that corporations were less obliged to be responsible because they were artificial constructs, not people as such.
This I'll agree with, but you still dont understand the Chicago School. Read Capital. Freedmans arguement is that the internal mechanisms will regulate if society feels the regulation is of value and the item is not a public good. (externality) He proved statistically that this is true. You have over simplified his theories.

If the morality in question is valued by society, shareholder value will be maximized by the morality as failing the morality will hurt the shareholder in the long run via lack of sales.
Monetarism isn't the lack of morals. Its the lack of morals that the public doesn't value. Given laws are essentially made by public value, in a properly operating capitalistic society (one free of govt interference, with information flow, externalities assigned value, and no collusion) morals of companies do not need to be externally dictated.

[fordgt84]

The videos on Youtube.. Watch it for yourself. Then come back and tell me what makes you sure its Nazi. CNN and the BBC have no more information then you or I... So the question is... Are you sure enough from watching the video that it's Nazi to take someones job? Erase what the sensationalism tells you, and look for yourself. If you forgot what you were told to believe, and your personal biases towards Max (which I have as well but I try to be more neutural) I can't say for sure one way or the other

i think we misunderstood each other, clearly what he did was not an act of nazism, but he was nazi role playing, pretending to be one. it's this type of role playing for foreplay that i and millions of people around the world find disgusting.... is it enough to have his ass fired? hell yes. ppl have expectations for a man in his position, and he completely shat on them.

i mean how can u use that for foreplay? after the history of all the misery, pain and death in those nazi prisons... then again he did think his fascist father and close friend to hitler was a softy.

as far as my biases towards mosley, i couldn't care less about the suits in motorsports... but i do care if they still get to stay in power when they are obviously twisted

[toffytofik]

Oh, i see you guys are playing that new game! :-P


http://www.sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/uploads/spadcluedo.jpg

[graywolf624]

but he was nazi role playing, pretending to be one.
Again.. What makes it nazi and not jail... Delousing was also used in the shawshank redemption.. clearly jail not just nazi.. The one prostitute spoke german. and stripes are a standard prison uniform. Its sick either way, but I think the jury is out on is or isnt. Id be more curious why british secret police were involved.

[fordgt84]

^ he spoke german as well, spoke english with a german accent too... said something like "we must give her ze punishment" :puke:... u can see why ppl would draw the conclusion that he was acting like a nazi, if it was just prison role playing why wud there be a sudden need to speak in german?

[Mattk]

^More like Arnold Schwarzenegger than Nazi. We can't just jump to conclusions. We can't punish Mosley for his parents' political leanings.

[graywolf624]

if it was just prison role playing why wud there be a sudden need to speak in german?
Not to stereo type.. but germans and strictness are a common stereotype even without wwII. I suspect someone who gets off on being beat like a prisoner is looking for domination stereotypes..
The again Im speculating.. just like everyone else.

[fordgt84]

Not to stereo type.. but germans and strictness are a common stereotype even without wwII. I suspect someone who gets off on being beat like a prisoner is looking for domination stereotypes..
The again Im speculating.. just like everyone else.

:rofl: i give up.... still i do think that money is the only reason why not everyone voted against him