F355 Challenge cant shake a Mustang Cobra...

[RC45]

On a Road Course.

Pagani, thsi one is for you heheh -- Enjoy.

Mustang Cobra vs Ferrari 355 Challenge at TWS - YouTube

[acmarttin]

Man that was a nice drive. That Ferrari is crazy loud. Have you ever done a track day at that course RC?

[Carbodiox]

That noise! I could sell my kidney for such a sound..

But F355 driver looks a bit crappy, he runs wide couple of times and brakes to early aswell. It seems to be the reason why Cobra could keep up.

[Mattk]

^Yeah, I think driver skill definitely had a part to play there. Nice vid, though.

[RC45]

Typical responses - not one word that the Cobra is possibly a capable car, just pathetic excuses the Ferrari must be driven by a loser and the Mustang must be driven by Schumacher for that video to be real.

Face it - your entire realities have been shaken to the core - A Mustang kept up with a Ferrari.

Why all the excuses? :) How often dont we read "even a moron in this eurocar could out handle a genius in that yank tank" etc etc etc.... Are you guys now trying to say that a young college student in a used Mustang is that much more talented than a coniesseur in an F355 Challenge that his uber-skills and the F-Car guys lack of talent are the only reasons the video played out the way it did?

I think not.... just admit that the car is good enough that it can be used to chase down an F355 Challenge car :)

[ferrari550]

nice video! the 355 or the cobra are not known as track rockets so it is entirely believable. i am a huge ferrari fan but this video looks correct to me

[enzoferrari]

Love the sound of the 355.

[nthfinity]

nice video! the 355 or the cobra are not known as track rockets so it is entirely believable. i am a huge ferrari fan but this video looks correct to me


The 355 isn't just a 355... its a Challenge car, track prepped to go very fast through the bends, brake well, and come out of the hole nicely ;)

[ferrari550]

The 355 isn't just a 355... its a Challenge car, track prepped to go very fast through the bends, brake well, and come out of the hole nicely ;)

true, you have a very good point. but, do we know if the cobra is stock? it can easily have some mods on it

[RC45]

The Mustang in Question - probably adding a bit to the stock 380bhp, but not reducing the weight much from stock 3660lbs


# 6056 of 8394
Born on 03/17/2003

Mods:

Bassani X-Pipe w/ removable cats (cats in right now)
Bassani Cat Back
Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter
Sparco Harness Bar
Sparco 5pt Cam-Lock Harnesses
C&L 95mm MAF
C&L Trueflow Inlet Pipe
K&N Filter
Fluidyne Heat Exchanger
LFP Intercooler Tank
Canton Coolant Reservoir
MM CC Plates
SS Brake Lines
Sparco Fire Bottle
Brake Cooling Ducts (thanks Anthony!)


For the track:

Corbeau FX1 Seat
17x9 Anthracite FR500s
275/40 Nitto NT01's
Brembo Slotted Rotors
Hawk Blue Pads
I/O Port Video Camera Mount
Magnetic #29


Just for looks:

Stainless Bumper Inserts
Front Grille Snake Medallion
Snake Embossed Floor Mats
Shorty Antenna


Because it's my daily driver:

Kenwood 7" in-dash fold out monitor/dvd player
Infinity Reference 5 1/4 components up front
Infinity Reference 5x7's in the back
10" Kicker L7 sub... removable ;-)
Kicker 600x1 Sub Amp
Kicker 300x4 Amp


In the garage, waiting for install:

A-piller gauge pod w/ oil temp, water temp & oil pressure
Strut Tower Brace, Steeda Sport Springs, Midcontinent Mustangs Crossover Adapter w/ temp sender (thanks Anthony!)


For the future:

Subframe Conn, IRS Brace, K-Member Brace, 6pt Cage




Track Vids... http://www.youtube.com/hiofcrcobra


What makes a 355 a Challenge car - besides just weighing 3000lbs and producing 380bhp stock.


After the unqualified success of Ferrari's 348 Challenge Trophy, a one-make racing series introduced for 1993, few were surprised when an F355-based car was announced in 1995. Customers would once again be able to compete with identical machinery in regional championships, some cars leaving the factory in full Challenge trim whilst others were retro-fitted with the official upgrade kit. Developed by Ferrari's F1 test driver, Nicola Larini, a number of important changes focused on improving safety and performance. The stiffer suspension was tuned for track use and featured solid suspension arm bushes and Teflon anti-sway bar bushes, competition brake pads also being used.
Distinctive new Speedline magnesium alloy wheels were shod with slick Pirelli tyres, engines having been sealed to prevent any extra development. Lightweight competition exhausts with just a single outlet pipe freed up a few extra horses, a sintered disc clutch having been the only mechanical change. Relatively few tweaks were made to Pininfarina's original bodywork either, the only tell-tale signs being those Speedline wheels, reinforced tow hooks and electrical kill switches. However, a striking rear aerofoil was introduced from 1997. Perhaps the most far-reaching changes came inside where a roll cage, lightweight sports seats, six-point harnesses and a fire extinguishing system were found. There was also a dash-mounted electrical kill switch, a three-spoke Momo steering wheel and a lightweight battery in a cabin stripped bare of all unnecessary trim. 72 were built new by the factory, 13 of which were right-hand drive while maybe another 100 or so were fitted with Ferrari's after-market pack.

[fordgt84]

^ i heard many svt cobras were making above the quoted hp ratings, i heard some were even pushing around 435 hp stock... the one in the video below produces around 387 rwhp stock apparently


http://youtube.com/watch?v=j3Goodp43YA

[graywolf624]

the one in the video below produces around 387 rwhp stock apparently
Not stock but close to stock. Turn up the boost or a tune can get you that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: " Open tracks say about as much about a car as flipping a coin". We know nothing about the drivers, whether the 355 is pushing it, etc. I can tell you from direct experience unless that mustang costs more then said 355 it's very unlikely with the proper driver it will keep up. The SN95 suspension has several inherent suspension and chasis design flaws.

Kinda like my old camaro track car. it was a step above the sn95 and a great choice for budget racing, but with the same driver the best ones in the world aren't going to be able to keep up with a modified car that was setup right to begin with.

[RC45]

Not stock but close to stock. Turn up the boost or a tune can get you that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: " Open tracks say about as much about a car as flipping a coin". We know nothing about the drivers, whether the 355 is pushing it, etc. I can tell you from direct experience unless that mustang costs more then said 355 it's very unlikely with the proper driver it will keep up. The SN95 suspension has several inherent suspension and chasis design flaws.

Kinda like my old camaro track car. it was a step above the sn95 and a great choice for budget racing, but with the same driver the best ones in the world aren't going to be able to keep up with a modified car that was setup right to begin with.

Actually that video says a lot about the 2 drivers and the 2 cars.

They have a chance for a few laps, without traffic to demonstrate abilities through a variety of turns and straight aways - and a variety of situations.

We see one lap where the Cobra short shifts a few corners early to play with revs and that is the one tme the 355 pulls away - the previous las the F-Car could make no ground on the Cobra.

It is human nature to not want to "cruise" at a trackday - especially in the quicker groups, so I would be more inclined to say that while this was no all-out competition, to simply assume the Ferrari driver must have been cruising and not at least going fast, is very disengenuous in the very least - I doubt his "ego" would allow it.

In fact, I would hazard a guess that the F355 as demonstrated is the kind of car that prefers to be driven at a quick pace, as it won't work very well in "cruise" mode - and the guy wasn't cruising, he was going at a fast pace, and the SVT was able to match that pace ;)

At least give some credit where it's due ;) - this is a demonstratable example of a Cobra in competant hands staying within reach of an F355.

Who knows, maybe the F-Car was out on old tyres trying to test a new chassis setting that wasnt working and the car was rev limited to 6000rpm and couldnt go any faster - but one thing we can be sure of, if the video was in-car in the Ferrari and the Mustang was in front, everyone would be saying how the pathetic poor Rustang Slowbra was holding up the Ferrari - and if anything, the track was clear enough for the F-Car to use its "superior handling" to pull clear on the infield, but it didn't - for what ever reason - superior Ford driver, inferior Tifosi driver, sun spots or bad tyres.

According to popular legend the F-Car should have left the Dorf Rustang for dead - but it didn't. :P

[madpony]

Mustang seemed very capable(both car and driver). Ferrari guy was just lucky it wasn't a camaro ;-) Nice little horse race though.

[pagani]

nice video! the 355 or the cobra are not known as track rockets so it is entirely believable. i am a huge ferrari fan but this video looks correct to me
The cobra r is very good and capable car/decent trackcar
That ferrari got his ass kicked by a ford
And that ferrari made more sound that it had power.
:-):mrgreen:

[RC45]

The cobra r is very good and capable car/decent trackcar
That ferrari got his ass kicked by a ford
And that ferrari made more sound that it had power.
:-):mrgreen:

Glad you saw this, I posted i tjust for you :)
And that is not even a Cobra R, its just a plain-jane SVT Cobra ;)

BTW, I got to drive one of those Roush 427R's you fell in love with... it is an awesome awesome car... trying to get hold of a TrakPak now ;)

[pagani]

Glad you saw this, I posted i tjust for you :)
And that is not even a Cobra R, its just a plain-jane SVT Cobra ;)

BTW, I got to drive one of those Roush 427R's you fell in love with... it is an awesome awesome car... trying to get hold of a TrakPak now ;)
I am glad i am right.
American cars are not so bad as some people think
I fall in love whit lots of cars these days.
Mustang's rock.
:-):mrgreen:

[ferrari550]

i do not think american cars in this league are bad at all, i never said that, your implying that i said that. 2 great cars on a track and a nice video. and i do not see how the ferrari got its ass kicked by a ford.

[pagani]

i do not think american cars in this league are bad at all, i never said that, your implying that i said that. 2 great cars on a track and a nice video. and i do not see how the ferrari got its ass kicked by a ford.
That ferrari could not drive away from the cobra so it's got it ass kicked.

[ferrari550]

That ferrari could not drive away from the cobra so it's got it ass kicked.

so if the cobra could not walk away from the 355 then its would have been kicked as well?

[nthfinity]

Truth of the matter is....

its easy to follow somebody on a track when you have a fast(er) car, but given the lead, and not doing as clean lines lends to the fast(er) car being unable to break away ;)

[pagani]

so if the cobra could not walk away from the 355 then its would have been kicked as well?
Strictly speakin yes.

[ferrari550]

Strictly speakin yes.

thats a weird way to look at it. for example: in an f1 race, hamilton is leading and massa is right behind him, hamilton cannot shake him and massa cannot pass hamilton. hamilton goes on to win the race, does this mean that massa kicked his ass?

[HeilSvenska]

thats a weird way to look at it. for example: in an f1 race, hamilton is leading and massa is right behind him, hamilton cannot shake him and massa cannot pass hamilton. hamilton goes on to win the race, does this mean that massa kicked his ass?
If he did it in a GP2 car.

[pagani]

thats a weird way to look at it. for example: in an f1 race, hamilton is leading and massa is right behind him, hamilton cannot shake him and massa cannot pass hamilton. hamilton goes on to win the race, does this mean that massa kicked his ass?
I love what rc45 did with has vette and would love to the same whit a mustang or some other interesting car.
ROUSH 427R Trak Pak Mustang tearing up at Gingerman Raceway
ROUSH 427R Trak Pak Mustang tearing up at Gingerman Raceway - YouTube

[Mattk]

Uh, both the Mustang and the F355 are good cars in their own way. What I was alluding to before was that you can't really say that one car is superior or inferior just by looking at two guys racing around a circuit. The major variable is the driver.

[sameerrao]

Boy that 355 challenge sounded awesome on the track! From the pitch of the sound, it seemed that was short shifting through most of the course while using more revs on the straight. The cobra guy did good.

[graywolf624]

At least give some credit where it's due :wink: - this is a demonstratable example of a Cobra in competant hands staying within reach of an F355.
Sigh. Im not saying the cobra is a bad car per say. What I am saying is money and no compromises buys you speed. A challenge ferrari is much more in that category then the cobra. You don't compare a porsche boxster to a 911. The same is true for a cobra versus a 355. A cobra competes with a nissan 350z and a rx8, not a Ferrari. Its not a plus or a minus of engineering of one group as it says nothing of what an American 120k car does.

The cobra R, while a fast car, is not a race car and not considered great on a road racing track (my personal standards may be higher then yours). IT still has the same dynamic flaws as the rest of the sn95s. In otherwords its good for an sn95, but take a better base like a corvette and the potential is well beyond what the cobra could hope for. I've said it before and Ill say it again. My third gen camaro had many thousands spent on suspension, yet if it beat my vette around a track (my vette is stock) I'd prolly be tickeled shitless. Start modifying the vette and you might as well give up. Thats why racing has classes. So us poor folk can modify a camaro and still be competitive.

[RC45]

Sigh. Im not saying the cobra is a bad car per say. What I am saying is money and no compromises buys you speed. A challenge ferrari is much more in that category then the cobra. You don't compare a porsche boxster to a 911. The same is true for a cobra versus a 355. A cobra competes with a nissan 350z and a rx8, not a Ferrari. Its not a plus or a minus of engineering of one group as it says nothing of what an American 120k car does.

The cobra R, while a fast car, is not a race car and not considered great on a road racing track (my personal standards may be higher then yours). IT still has the same dynamic flaws as the rest of the sn95s. In otherwords its good for an sn95, but take a better base like a corvette and the potential is well beyond what the cobra could hope for. I've said it before and Ill say it again. My third gen camaro had many thousands spent on suspension, yet if it beat my vette around a track (my vette is stock) I'd prolly be tickeled shitless. Start modifying the vette and you might as well give up. Thats why racing has classes. So us poor folk can modify a camaro and still be competitive.

The car in the video is not Cobra R - it is 2003 Cobra... just wanted to clear that bit up. Considering there is no doubting the 2000 Cobra R's racing credentials SN95 base or not.

BTW, dont get too excited about the C6 Coupe stock - the stock tyres will let you down long before you turn in fast lap times - be sure to change them out for sticky ruber before you take on anyone's modded Camaro ;)

There is a reason the Challenge series existed, it couldnt hold it's own in mixed company - but shines in a one-make series - as this video demonstrates ;)

Anyway - the bullshit stops when the flag drops - and agin, the video demonstrates that theoretical benchracing and reality are often frustratingly different - whether it be driver, suspension, tyres or gearing - doent matter - the reality is where the rubber hits the road. :)

[graywolf624]

I have to disagree. Again, its an otc and its with drivers we don't know. It shows nothing.

BTW, dont get too excited about the C6 Coupe stock - the stock tyres will let you down long before you turn in fast lap times - be sure to change them out for sticky ruber before you take on anyone's modded Camaro
I'd put down good money with the right driver your not going to find a modified camaro lapping much better then a stock C6.. At least without run flats. As far as Im concerned since tires are a wear item the car is still stock with different ones. That being said cars should be measured with like tires, which brings me back to the begining of this paragraph.

A little lesson about the sn95.
Dynamic flaw number 1. Drive one wheel up on a curb. The rest will remain on the ground.
2) when lowered the sn95 experiences major issues. The caster angle is such that lowering actually creates a dynamic condition of positive camber.
3) weight
4) the rear axle options are bad. Stock stick axle had quadra links. Read: really bad binding of the suspension causing snap oversteer. The cobra had a multilink, which was so bad people went back to the stick axle (tendancy to wheel hop under breaking will tighten anyones spinchter).
5) All of these items can be overcome but cost money, weight, and begin to get into the point where your talking tubbed rear and other things that make it the car formerly known as a mustang.
6) The mustang cobra only cost 32k and the gt was 26k (ball parks) which means its competition with a few exceptions are things like toyota camrys. In other words, 1-5 still in tact its still a great car. The same comes back to that old camaro. It was a superior platform to the mustang, but even its limits with respect to 5 mean your better off going purpose built to play with the big boys. Or being in SCCA f class where it meets like cars.

[RC45]

I have to disagree. Again, its an otc and its with drivers we don't know. It shows nothing.


I'd put down good money with the right driver your not going to find a modified camaro lapping much better then a stock C6.. At least without run flats. As far as Im concerned since tires are a wear item the car is still stock with different ones. That being said cars should be measured with like tires, which brings me back to the begining of this paragraph.

A little lesson about the sn95.
Dynamic flaw number 1. Drive one wheel up on a curb. The rest will remain on the ground.
2) when lowered the sn95 experiences major issues. The caster angle is such that lowering actually creates a dynamic condition of positive camber.
3) weight
4) the rear axle options are bad. Stock stick axle had quadra links. Read: really bad binding of the suspension causing snap oversteer. The cobra had a multilink, which was so bad people went back to the stick axle (tendancy to wheel hop under breaking will tighten anyones spinchter).
5) All of these items can be overcome but cost money, weight, and begin to get into the point where your talking tubbed rear and other things that make it the car formerly known as a mustang.
6) The mustang cobra only cost 32k and the gt was 26k (ball parks) which means its competition with a few exceptions are things like toyota camrys. In other words, 1-5 still in tact its still a great car. The same comes back to that old camaro. It was a superior platform to the mustang, but even its limits with respect to 5 mean your better off going purpose built to play with the big boys. Or being in SCCA f class where it meets like cars.

All that being said, here is a video of an "SN95" being driven in such a way that is is able to keep up with a superior car that i snot being driven slowly.

All of the "problems" you highlight, appear to have not really bothered this guy on this day. In fact, he looked to be having a great time.

If it had of been a simple matter of dropping the hammer to put daylight between the 2 cars, I have serious money that says if the F-Car driver could have he would have just walked away.

But perhpas he would have had to have pushed much harder, perhaps past his comfort zone for the day to do so....

I know everyone wants to believe the F-Car MUST have been short shifting 3 gears and running on old tyres with 87 octane fuel, 2 plug wires cut ad marshmallow fo rbrake pads - and that on any other day would have pulled 25 seconds ahead through the first 5 turns o fthe video... but it didn't on this day :)

Here is some Cobra R action for comparison ;) hehe
2000 cobra r chasing down a porsche carrera gt - YouTube

[graywolf624]

All of the "problems" you highlight, appear to have not really bothered this guy on this day. In fact, he looked to be having a great time.
That would be the nature of budget racing. You bandaid the car to the really bad stuff and learn to cope with the rest. Its still a blast on the track.. Hell Ive heard even prius' are fun out there, and I thought driving one on the street was the worst thing imaginable.

But perhpas he would have had to have pushed much harder, perhaps past his comfort zone for the day to do so....
It really comes back to the nut behind the wheel. Put me behind the wheel of an enzo and Schumacher behind the wheel of a mustang gt (maybe even stock) and outside the straights Im not getting away. *caution low blow ahead* And that could even be Ralph....


and that on any other day would have pulled 25 seconds ahead through the first 5 turns o fthe video...
I didn't say anything about the health, shifting, or anything else. I did say ot is about as relevant as the hair on my ass to how good a car is. In fact.. its only one notch above a magazine test.. where they still test with different drivers under different conditions.

[RC45]

More nuts behind the wheel... Cobra R style ;)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ZTJ-6CSFog

[79TA]

Thats why racing has classes. So us poor folk can modify a camaro and still be competitive.

Well, coming from someone who has yet to plunk down his 40 dollars for a NASA membership (and subscription to Grass Roots Motorsports Magazine) the Camaro modders look pretty wealthy. The vette is a better base than the Camaro, but not so much that it takes a tremendous amount of modding to get an LS1 Z28 to lap with a stock C6 (especially with really good brakes and tires.)

I could go on so many tangents from here . . . I could talk about:
- my cousin's beastly 525 N/A Z28 that he's set up for road racing
- how much the C6 owned the other cars on Forza Motorsport Showdown (a Speed Channel show)
- how Mustangs and Camaros are cheaper, more expendable (*cringe*), and therefore more likely to be made into dedicated track cars
- how I'd love to track the TA, despite its 3700 lb heft
- the idea of taking my new little fox body out to a NASA HPDE event this summer
- reminding myself that I'm broke until i get another job

[graywolf624]

The vette is a better base than the Camaro, but not so much that it takes a tremendous amount of modding to get an LS1 Z28 to lap with a stock C6 (especially with really good brakes and tires.)
It takes alot more then you would think.. My wallet in college reflected the dollar value. Can it be done? yes!.. Once the c6 starts modding is the z28 screwed.. signs also point to yes.

That being said the ls1 isnt the best choice for a camaro track car. Ironically its a 3rd gen. Overall they are lighter with the same suspension. Just replace the engine and your cooking with gas.
*personally dumped a 5 figure sum into a 1000 dollar camaro track car.

[79TA]

Yea, I've seen quite a few really nice (that is, fast) third gen track cars. The thing is they all seem to take pretty extensive modification in order to make decent power. One thing I found frustrating during my recent car search was how few of them seemed to be equipped with manual transmissions. Maybe you'd swap that out too, but the 6 speed gear box coupled to the LS1 seems a bit more capable.

Do you still have the third gen? You should run it in NASA's American Iron series or something :thumbup:

[graywolf624]

Maybe you'd swap that out too, but the 6 speed gear box coupled to the LS1 seems a bit more capable.
They sell a direct swap in for the ls1 with 6 speed engine. Whole change is about 3k if you do it yourself. I was considering it at one point. Then I was jobless for a time and sold the car. So no I no longer have the thirdgen. Now its only the vette and Trans am. The TA has an exhaust but other wise both are stock and under 10k miles. So not much chance of a track car for either.

[79TA]

i wouldn't mind performing such a swap on the ol' fox body I just got . . . sooo wrong

[RC45]

i wouldn't mind performing such a swap on the ol' fox body I just got . . . sooo wrong

There are a ton of Fox body LSx hybrids over at LS1tech.com

You know you want a real engine in that bad boy ;)