ACR beats Supperleggera and GT3 at WSIR

[SnakeBitten]

Beats em by over 3 secs a lap on the 2.5 mile WSIR high speed track. Despite the title of the article no ZR1/Z06 or Scuderia was tested. A bit of a let down. ACR seemed to be a preproduction "durability" mule. Enjoy
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6460

[gangajas]

Really fast car, but I read in this forum that is not exactly a road car.

[SnakeBitten]

Really fast car, but I read in this forum that is not exactly a road car.

Judge for yourself. Its got a vin number, AC, Radio, power leather seats, Lights, airbags, no roll cage etc. If this car is not a street car then neither is the GT3 Porsche which actually comes with a rollcage. You have the option as a buyer to delete ac, adio, sound deadening, carpet etc if you are totally going to only use it for the track. The only difference between it and the regular Viper is suspension, and aero addons. Everything else can be exactly like the regular coupe. The Comp Coupe is the one thats not a street car. It doesnt have a vin number and can only be bought by licensed race teams/drivers for track only use.

[RC45]

Judge for yourself. Its got a vin number, AC, Radio, power leather seats, Lights, airbags, no roll cage etc. If this car is not a street car then neither is the GT3 Porsche which actually comes with a rollcage. You have the option as a buyer to delete ac, adio, sound deadening, carpet etc if you are totally going to only use it for the track. The only difference between it and the regular Viper is suspension, and aero addons. Everything else can be exactly like the regular coupe. The Comp Coupe is the one thats not a street car. It doesnt have a vin number and can only be bought by licensed race teams/drivers for track only use.


The ACR is equipped with the same V-10 engine and 6-speed manual transmission found in the stock Viper. The two also share the same basic interior fitment. However, that is where the similarities end.

The folks who have seen, filmed,driven and tested it do not agree with you - and neither will the rest o fthe performance car world.

(and before you get all bent out of shape and make this into a personal attack-festm I will remind you of the site forum civility rules.

In other words, don't make make your personal opinions of another poster show through as fighting and argumentative posts.)

[Svensson]

^ Then please explain why a GT3 RS is considered to be a roadcar and this ACR isn't? I don't follow anymore...

[RC45]

^ Then please explain why a GT3 RS is considered to be a roadcar and this ACR isn't? I don't follow anymore...

The GT3 RS, CSL and ACR are very thinly disguised "street legal" trackday cars.

Everyone in the know (owners, manufacturers, testers and racers) agrees on this - the fact that the cars ship with RACE TRACK tyres says it all.

Michelin Pilot SPort Cup tyres may be "technically" street-legal tyres, they how ever carry no warranty from the manufacturer.

This fact alone should help clear up any misconceptions that the GT3 RS, M3 CSL and ACR (as an example) were intended to be anything more than superb track ready cars (not race winners as racing cars are stripped further) but track ready cars, that also happen to be streetable and meet minimum requirements for basic roadworthy.

Porsche, BMW and Dodge did not intend (and make no claim - in fact theyrecommend not using the cars with Sport Cup tyres in wet weather) for these 3 cars to be used as daily drivers to and from work in sun and rain the same way a "regular" version of thos cars may be used :)

[Svensson]

^ Ok, then it's fair enough. At first it seemed like you considered the GT3 RS to be more of a roadcar than the ACR, but in this case I agree with your explanation.

[RC45]

^ Ok, then it's fair enough. At first it seemed like you considered the GT3 RS to be more of a roadcar than the ACR, but in this case I agree with your explanation.

And in fact, that is why some of us non-poser Vette fans are a bit dissapointed that the new ZR1 is a even less hardcore than the C6 Z06... but we are not surprised... as GM makes their money selling Vettes to posers, which drives the price down low enough so that Z06's are realy cheap and easy to get for the enthusiast Vette fans.. ;)

[Svensson]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hardcore track-oriented roadcars :-)
Wish the Z06 versions weren't so expensive here in the NL...

[enzoferrari]

Thanks for sharing,the Viper is just 2 fast.

[SnakeBitten]

Yawwwwwwnnnnnn. Svenson as with everything in life everyone has an opinion. Listen to all of them then make up your own mind. Bottomline is the car is sold as a street car with many of the basic creature comforts you will find in a typical street car. Racecars in general dont have AC, Radio, leather seats, carpeting, sound deadening etc and a warranty. The ACR has all of that just like the regular Viper.

[RC45]

Yawwwwwwnnnnnn. Svenson as with everything in life everyone has an opinion. Listen to all of them then make up your own mind. Bottomline is the car is sold as a street car with many of the basic creature comforts you will find in a typical street car. Racecars in general dont have AC, Radio, leather seats, carpeting, sound deadening etc and a warranty. The ACR has all of that just like the regular Viper.

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres do not carry a warranty and ar enot recommended for use in wet weather per Michelin, BMW, Porsche and Dodge.

If you cannot appreciate these facts, then that is your loss - but never the less does not change the view the manufacurers have of thei rown cars.

Why not take you argument to Dodge, BMW and Porsche since you are of the opinion that the RS, CSL and ACR are "just ordinary regular work-a-day street cars".

Testers, owners and the manufacturers admit to and make no appologies for the compromises that make these cars more track car than street cars - the opinion of a few fanboys doesnt change these facts either.

Why ar eyou always trying to argue the point that the likes of RS, CSL and now ACR are "just street cars"?

What are you basing your adament argument on? We would love to know. :)

(Again, see if at all possible you can stick to the topic and not resort to cheap name calling, and trolling :))

[79TA]

And in fact, that is why some of us non-poser Vette fans are a bit dissapointed that the new ZR1 is a even less hardcore than the C6 Z06... but we are not surprised... as GM makes their money selling Vettes to posers, which drives the price down low enough so that Z06's are realy cheap and easy to get for the enthusiast Vette fans.. ;)

RC, I'm sick of the arbitrary poser talk from the other thread. ;-)

Anyway, if I were a bigger fan of the Viper (with a good chunk of change), I could see using the ACR as a roadcar. It is very similar to the standard Viper but more hardcore. As an enthusiasist and owner of a TA with a stiff suspension, I wouldn't mind the ride and noise levels. Yes, the tires would wear quickly compared to others but most hoons have learned to accept the expensive reality of quick tire wear. I'd probably get something a bit less aggressive if the car were to see lots of road use. But that's just it, it likely won't. It'd be fun to have a car that wouldn't need trailering and could be driven around town when the urge struck. I'm glad to see the ACR return.

RC and Snakebitten haven't yet pointed out any specifics that contradict. Instead it seems to be an argument of emphasis.


Hmm, this is off topic, but when Clarkson rips the Z06 for not being a good road car compared to the Ferrari 550, he forgets to mention that the 550 flattens bumps much better as it weights 3800 lbs.

[SnakeBitten]

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres do not carry a warranty and ar enot recommended for use in wet weather per Michelin, BMW, Porsche and Dodge.

If you cannot appreciate these facts, then that is your loss - but never the less does not change the view the manufacurers have of thei rown cars.

Why not take you argument to Dodge, BMW and Porsche since you are of the opinion that the RS, CSL and ACR are "just ordinary regular work-a-day street cars".

Testers, owners and the manufacturers admit to and make no appologies for the compromises that make these cars more track car than street cars - the opinion of a few fanboys doesnt change these facts either.

Why ar eyou always trying to argue the point that the likes of RS, CSL and now ACR are "just street cars"?

What are you basing your adament argument on? We would love to know. :)

(Again, see if at all possible you can stick to the topic and not resort to cheap name calling, and trolling :))

Amazing how you try to split hairs to make your point of view acceptable LOL. Now you are resorting to "just street cars", "just ordinary regular work-a-day street cars". LMAO.

Nice try. Most focused sportscar for the street aint ordinary lol. Fact is the ACR is sold as a streetcar focused for the track moreso than the regular Viper. What race car do you know comes with heavy leather seats, AC, Radio, carpeting, sound deadening, WARRANTY? Keep the "innocent" act up but you aint fooling nobody:) We all know you like to fight over the simplest things.

[RC45]

Amazing how you try to split hairs to make your point of view acceptable LOL. Now you are resorting to "just street cars", "just ordinary regular work-a-day street cars". LMAO.

Nice try. Most focused sportscar for the street aint ordinary lol. Fact is the ACR is sold as a streetcar focused for the track moreso than the regular Viper. What race car do you know comes with heavy leather seats, AC, Radio, carpeting, sound deadening, WARRANTY? Keep the "innocent" act up but you aint fooling nobody:) We all know you like to fight over the simplest things.

I am not splitting hairs. My statements have not change at all since you started in on this rubbish.

You are foolishly trying to make it out that the ACR is "jusy like any other Viper" - well that is odd.. Dodge and every person who has driven or tested one aggrees with me, not you.

The ACR is not "just like every other Viper - if its was, then Dodge would not have bothered to build it.

The same is true for the CSL, and GT3 RS - the cars are not, and were never intended to be their manufacturers "work a day" models.

And please - do some home work and check your facts - Michelin Pilot Sport Cups do not carry a warranty - they are competition tyres with DOT certification, not street tyres to use on a track.

Oh - and the "innocent" act is for your benfit buddy - because if you start slagging and name calling and personally attacking (as you seem to do) you will be summarily banned - so in a way I can't wait for you to start mouthing off with the personal attacks.

For some or other reason you are determined to make out that there is barely anything special about the new ACR - we all know why this is, so that when it "beats" other ordinary street cars in some arbitrary shootout you can go around posting as such.

Just be adult about it an acknowledge the ACR is a prpose built version of the Dodge Viper that is purposefully focused at the track, and just so happens to be street legal (to allow it to qualify to be used in many race classes).

This is the same reason Porsche produce a GT3 RS as well as non-streetable Cup cars.

I can almost guarantee that had someone else pointed these facts out to you, you would be more accepting, but your personal anger and hatred is getting in the way.

Let it go - the facts are there for the reading:


The ACR is equipped with the same V-10 engine and 6-speed manual transmission found in the stock Viper. The two also share the same basic interior fitment. However, that is where the similarities end.

This is not my opinion - this is another observer. Seems Road & Track is in my camp on this one.

[nthfinity]

Tires, suspension, downforce... all these make it a very different car.

You wouldn't say a Mustang GT drives like the new KR does... let alone, a standard GT500.

[SnakeBitten]

Im at a loss as to where you got the notion that I think the ACR/GT3/CSL is a "work a day" grocery getter car. You have and will neever see that in any of my posts. I believe you are assuming alot from your own bias as I never said that. The issue you got at me for is saying the ACR is a STREETCAR whereas you say its a racecar and as such it shouldnt be tested against a ZR1. All this other nonsence that you have trickled into this in the two threads is from your own mind.

Simple statement is that the ACR IS a street car. Only a moron could not see the difference between ACR/GT3/CSL and the regular cars they are based on. The argument was about it being a street car. Now you go and institute the "work a day" nonsence which was never the issue. I have never said the ACR is aim at being a daily driver. It is however a streetcar with a more focused mission for the track. Here is my reasoning behind that.


This is a race car. Totally focused no streetable pretensions. As light as possible, NO creature comforts and streetcar amenities. Only focus in and out is optimal speed, no coddling of driver.
http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2008/2/13/3080213.001/1006super1.jpg
http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2008/2/13/3080213.001/1007super1.jpg
http://www.kelownadodge.com/images/fun/Dodge-Viper-Competition-Coupe-1024.jpg
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2000-2003/2003-Dodge-Viper-Competition-Coupe-Instrument-Panel-1024x768.jpg



These below are streetcars that are more track focused than the normal versions. Big difference imho. Once you have amenities those are compromises that do not and wont be in a real racecar. Also you wont get a warranty with a racecar. Take either of these around a track vs the real racecars and you will see where the streetcar compromises have an impact on there respective lap times. Weight from the "streetcar" amenities will probably be the biggest culprit. Now there are racing entities like SCCA that these street/track cars would fit to a tee but it doesnt take away the fact that it was built with street driving as part of its mission. If I get a set of coil overs and change out my brakes for lighter bigger versions and get functional aero pieces on my Z does that make my car a racecar? NO. It just makes it more track ready.


http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/images/porsche-911-gt3-big-4.jpg
http://myautoworld.com/auto/porsche/porsche-07-gt3/porsche-07-gt3-7.jpg
"The Porsche 911 GT3 is the most direct link between a road-going sports car and a track-proven racing car. Conceived, designed and built for undiluted driving dynamics, the drivetrain, suspension and aerodynamics of the car provide a unique synthesis of "everyday driving qualities" and thoroughbred racing technology. "



http://www.onlydreamcars.com/wallpapers/DodgeViperACR08_2.jpg
http://images.motortrend.com/roadtests/dodge/112_0803_07z+2009_dodge_viper_acr+interior_view.jp g
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/0/M/c/dc_08viper_int.jpg
Regular Viper interior is the bottom pic above. Everything else between this ACR interior and the regular Vipers interior is the same. Only difference is that this ACR example the owner "opted" to replace the factory radio. Notice AC, etc is in the ACR's cabin. The differences between the two cars is mainly in suspension and aero dynamic pieces which of course helps the ACR be faster. It doesnt, however, somehow stop the Viper from being a streetcar. If you want a real race car they have one called the Comp Coupe. Cars like the ACR/GT3/CSL etc are made for both street and track. Theres a reason they have vin number and come with warranties, radios, AC, leather/alcantara, full carpeting, sound deadening, suspensions calibrated for a decent street/track tradeoff etc.

Ill continue to ignore your bait. Feel free to pat yourself on the back over these silly internet hairsplitting sessions you seem to relish:)

MOD EDIT:
No direct linking images wider then 800 pixels

[RC45]

The issue you got at me for is saying the ACR is a STREETCAR whereas you say its a racecar and as such it shouldnt be tested against a ZR1. All this other nonsence that you have trickled into this in the two threads is from your own mind.


Comparing the ACR to ZR1 other than to test the "top money Viper VS the top money Vette" is a pointlless excercise. They are not designed following the same philosophy- nor are they even aimed at the same market.

The one car is a pure out and out street car with almost no concessions to track presense, while the other is a a pure out and out track car with almost no concessions to to street presence.

In fact, the one car was designed giving NO thought to it being used fo rracing and in no way meets ANY race class or organisation rules for stock based car racing... while the other car was designed SPECIFICALLY to allow it to be used in stock based classes of racing giving the racer a better platform to start from - in other words, the one is a race car that is street legal, while the other is a street car with no preparation for the race track. In fact, the one car even comes with Comeptition Tyres that carry no warranty.

Oh, and in this day and age, A/C is a requirement for certain race classes, so the presence of A/C doesnt make a car "not a race car" - and as to why the ACR/GT3/CSL etc come with all the pices they do is so the cars can meet class homolagation requirements - there are clases that REQUIRE the car being campaigned is a VINed chassis.

Not only can I see that, other forum members see, even magazine testers see it, the manufacturers them selves see it - in fact, it appears only you and a few Viper fanboys dont see it.

Dont let the facts make you upset - they are what they are.

Good day.

[79TA]

I still really think this is just a prideful argument of emphasis.

The ACR is what it is: a more hard core viper with track intentions that is still streetable.

[RC45]

I still really think this is just a prideful argument of emphasis.

The ACR is what it is: a more hard core viper with track intentions that is still streetable.

Actually I am just trying to get him so upset that he fires off something that will get him banned ;)

[HeilSvenska]

I thought we settled this argument in some other thread months ago...

ACR = American Club Racing. It has obvious racing intent...

[SnakeBitten]

lol glad you fessed up RC you were'nt fooling anyone and we both know you actually believe the stuff you were saying and it wasnt all just to get me banned;-). As regards this silly argument I never started it. Never did I say most of what RC keeps saying and have gotten some of you to believe. As for me getting banned so what? I hardly come here. If you want me gone that bad dont start silly arguments over semantics. That way I wont remember to come back here as often when I get some down time.:-) No knock on the site as its first class with alot of knowledgable people, info, pics and vids but all of you know that without me saying it. One of the reasons I joined so many years ago.

NthInfinity can tell you that I was done with this argument since last time. He asked me not to continue in pm's so respected his wish and I didnt respond further in the other thread. I wasnt the one that started any of this mess either in this thread or the other. I think it obvious we both like to argue :laugh: but RC takes the cake.

I do reserve the right to post the first ZR1 vs ACR test that RC said will never happen among other things. :mrgreen:

Wrong - they wont be compared "by magazines" - because the cars will not be a performance match in a street test - the ACR would lose thereby making for bad press for Dodge - there is no point in comparing the 2.


My appologies on the picture linking Nth. Ive got to get used to the site again.

[nthfinity]

I do reserve the right to post the first ZR1 vs ACR test that RC said will never happen among other things. :mrgreen:


.

I look forward to it :) :thumbup:

and I also hope you post more in something besides RC45 vs. you type threads ;)

[RC45]

I do reserve the right to post the first ZR1 vs ACR test that RC said will never happen among other things. :mrgreen:

Wrong - they wont be compared "by magazines" - because the cars will not be a performance match in a street test - the ACR would lose thereby making for bad press for Dodge - there is no point in comparing the 2.



And I stick to that statement.

The cars ar enot close in performance or intent - the only value of an ACR vs ZR1 test will be to say "we tested "top dog Dodge vs top dog Chevy" and here ar ethe "results".

The outcome will be heavily biased in the ZR1's favour for onroad cruise missile like performance and biased heavily in the ACR's favour for offroad go-cart like handling.

2 different cars for 2 different sectors and making a direct comparison will be as stupid as C&D publishing an AMG SLR Macca vs Lotus Exige test - other than to show the companies top dogs on paper.

So, really, there was never an argument or debate.

[SnakeBitten]

Ok RC now that we are playing nice. I never disagreed with some of what you said. You were preaching to the choir with most of the stuff you were saying thats why I didnt address them. My point was its a streetcar and that it will be tested against ZR1. Thats it. You disagreed but your points were Captain Obvious-ish and all over the place even implying things I never said.

My original post was merely about the inevitable test between the two. They've been locking horns in head to head comparisons ever since the Vipers inception. Im really puzzled how you can believe all of a sudden now they wont get tested head to head. It doesnt matter if they dont match up in all areas. They NEVER have yet were always tested against each other if only for bragging rights. Thats it. Everyone knows the Viper will lose a head to head when it comes to comfort, ergonomics etc to most any car. Hell even the GT500 beat it in C&D test even though the Viper whiped the floor with it on the performance level.

No one expects a Viper to have a chance at beating a Vette in anything but performance and looks[subjective]. Nothing has changed. But we all want to know how they stack up on cold hard performance numbers. Come on, you know you do. Suppose the ZR1 can beat the ACR on a track. How would most of us know unless its done? Magazine publishers Know what sells magazines. How would we have known a Z06 can beat a GT3 if they decided like you do? Most of us wouldnt have known that a Z06 with RUNCRAPS can outlap a GT3 with racecompounds? Look lets both drop this as it seems only important to US and not the rest of the board ok.;-) BTW a few Vette guys on different boards get at me because of my screen name from time to time. I dont own a Viper so you dont have to lay it on so thick.

Nth I actually do post in non RC threads lol. But I see your point;-)

[RC45]

It doesnt matter if they dont match up in all areas. They NEVER have yet were always tested against each other if only for bragging rights.

Actually, the C5 Z06 and 2000 ACR danced toe-to-toe.. and in pretty much all the head to head tests (because the C5 Z and ACR and even 2000 Cobra R actually are all in the same performance league and were tested head to head) the C5 Z06 (the 385bhp verison at that) beat the ACR in all categories accept 1/4 mile - and 2nd place was always a battle betwen the 385bhp NA Cobra R and the ACR.

And remember, the ACR, C5 Z and Cobra R were built the way they were to be street legal race cars so that they could participate in SCCA racing classes that required a VINd car as the starting point.

I dont think it is a co-incidence that John Heinrichy was a chief C5 engineering design team member and competed in SCCA T1 races with the C5 Z and won ;) - and that the C5 was designed the way it was.

So going back to what I have said, the ACR (just like ACR's of years past) is a street legal race car, the same way the C5 Z06 was a street legal race car and the same way the Cobra R was a street legal race car - the C6 Z06 and SRT/10 departed from being street legal race cars, to being trackable street cars since they dont need to be "race ready" to meet class rules.

The ZR1 has not returned to the C5 Z06's roots, but moved even further away from race car class rules than the C6 Z06 did - but the the new ACR went back to its ACR roots and is again a street legal race car.

I am not sure how much you know about about stock based racing formulas. but the cars that win the most are the cars that in stock form have enough special pieces (or good enough) that they meet the class specifican of "stock based" but are better than the street car pieces.

Take brake rotors - GM is a cheap company, so they opted for the lowest common denominator for the C5 Z06 brakes - and they still did well on track it T1 ands T2 - they had to, because the rules stated that the rotors had to be the stock pieces/part numbers of the street car - but the pistons and brake hoses and fluid could be changed out.

The heavier ACR however needed better brakes so it was shipped with better "stock pieces" so that at least T1 campaigners could have "exotic" but still class legal brakes.

The same with wheel widths, offsets, fender placment and a few other critical pieces.

Do yousee now why I with confidence call the ACR a street legal race car?

Because in essence it is - and is class legal with ulta exotic pieces that would normally not be allowed to be added - but since they are stock exotic pieces, they are allowed.

And I with confidence say the ZR1 is not a street legal race car, but rather a trackable street car - because it is loaded up with a bunch of race illegal goodies that only serve to enhance the street car. Although, someone somewhere may have a plan to try race the C6 ZR1 - although they would need to ditch some of the eletrconic doo-dads as they are not allowed - but that would mean a "ACR" style verison would need to be released to be homologated... nah probably not. ;)

Maybe you learned something new from my post, maybe you didn't.

Peace.

[SnakeBitten]

RC give it a rest already sheeez...In other news GT2 will be a beast. Will be a good fight between it and the ZR1:laugh:.