Top Gear - S10 EP8 - 2nd December, 2007 - Discussion

[vexor]

Richard Hammond drives a Formula one car and Jeremy Clarkson and James May search for the first car with the control layout we know today. The Vauxhall VXR8 grunts around the test track, and there's a review of a BMW that can drive itself. James Blunt is the 'Star in a Reasonably Priced Car' and Lewis Hamilton is a very special studio guest.
....

[spanky]

At least I know when ill get to see the Holden! Hangin for the episode

[regele]

Hamilton and Stig! Cat fight!;-)

[gangajas]

Lewis Hamilton and Anthony Hamilton are going to test this vehicle:

http://i15.tinypic.com/6yev6fm.jpg

:mrgreen:

[vexor]

http://www.topgear.com/content/timetoburn/sections/galleries/other/tg-telly-episode8-series10/11/main.jpg

Show Preview HERE (http://www.topgear.com/content/timetoburn/sections/galleries/other/tg-telly-episode8-series10/11/)

[SafirXP]

yess.... i do hope lewis b|tchslaps stiggy! renault F1, VXR8 and lewis... gonna be a kick ar$e show!!!!

[m0ng0l01dz]

LH is not gonna set the overall fast lap, its wet.

[martin100]

Sounds good but could be better...

[saadie]

its not for sure that a F1 driver trances the lap record ;) ...
no one can beat the stig .... hes got the most eperience on the track ..

the episode is gonna be damn fun tho .. :)

[Svensson]

I have to say, that was quite a cool episode! One of the most entertaining of this season.
And I loved how Jeremy called Alonso "Eyebrow Man" :laugh:

[pagani]

That was complete waste of time most boring episode ever.
And the vxr8 review was to rushed to old car thing was a complete waste of time the jokes are not even funny anymore.
Hamilton is boring like the rest of the f1 drivers.

[m0ng0l01dz]

That was complete waste of time most boring episode ever.
And the vxr8 review was to rushed to old car thing was a complete waste of time the jokes are not even funny anymore.
Hamilton is boring like the rest of the f1 drivers.
Wow! Such harsh words from a man named after a fly by night car marque ( build an engine and we'll talk about performance, otherwise you're a kit car). If you don't like top gear, why do you watch it? hang tight, wait for 5th gear, we'll call you if anything changes on top gear that we feel you need to know about:-P

[regele]

LOL did you just call Pagani a kit car? LMAO

[saadie]

m0ng0l01dz :lol: ...
its his opinion ... stfu and get over it :lol: ...

and pagani .. a kit car ? .. :lol: .... :)

[5vz-fe]

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2940689,00.html

Looks like PlanetF1 is keeping an eye on the show as well.

[pagani]

Wow! Such harsh words from a man named after a fly by night car marque ( build an engine and we'll talk about performance, otherwise you're a kit car). If you don't like top gear, why do you watch it? hang tight, wait for 5th gear, we'll call you if anything changes on top gear that we feel you need to know about:-P
5th gear is better now
The problem is with television you never now with you can expect.
Pagani is not a kit car.
:mrgreen::-P:-P

[m0ng0l01dz]

Pagani is not a kit car.
:mrgreen::-P:-P
Oh, my bad. It's a CLK with a body kit:-P:drool: Im sure if I stuck a 7.3l V12 in a beetle, that'd be quick too.

[Pokiou]

i loved this weeks show :D

[styla21]

Seems like a love it or hate it episode... Looking forward to it 8-)

[tonguemahoop]

the bmw lapping the track with noone at the wheel was the best part.. put hamiltons amazing time in the shade, shows u what is possible nowadays

[saadie]

Oh, my bad. It's a CLK with a body kit:-P:drool: Im sure if I stuck a 7.3l V12 in a beetle, that'd be quick too.

wrongg .. its not a CLK ... and yeah a beetle would be just as fast but not as special ...
the way you are saying ... means the Mclaren was a kit car so was first koenigsegg with the ford block .. and so is the saleen .. :lol:

get over it mate :lol: .. you are just simply wrong :-P

[regele]

the bmw lapping the track with noone at the wheel was the best part.. put hamiltons amazing time in the shade, shows u what is possible nowadays
How does it put Hamilton's time in the shade? They seem like pretty unrelated events to me, besides that, despite what they said, this isn't the first car that is able to do that, the first one I saw was a VW featured over a year ago on 5th gear and there are probably other even older cars like that.

[m0ng0l01dz]

wrongg ... means the Mclaren was a kit car so was first koenigsegg with the ford block .. and so is the saleen .. :lol:

get over it mate :lol: .. you are just simply wrong :-P
Yeah basically kit cars all around, not saying theyre not fancy pantsy and fun to be around, but facts is facts. ac cobra was a kit car. It basically boils down to being a tuner ride, but not a car as a whole. When you have to take the motor to a different service dept than the radio....its like the customer cars in F1. More companies need to be constuctors, especially when you're taking my works and calling them simply your own. It should be the Pagani CLK . I got buddies with 10second Civics, they dont go calling them " Bubbagump ctr":mrgreen: You know I think im gonna do that, im gonna take my 300zx and rebadge it, cause I put a front air dam on it.:-P Now thats wrong!
...and a beetle with an AMG V12 would be alot faster, for the 90 milliseconds that it remained in the back!

[regele]

Mate are you consistently high? Let it go already, 9/10 car people will tell you Pagani is not a kit car, the engine is from a clk gtr, but the rest is different, where as your friends Civics might do 10 secs, but they still have lots of parts that you can find on a standard Civic, how you compare a fast civic with a Pagani is really beyond me.

Oh and another thing, if Pagani was badged as a Mercedes that would instantly make it not a kit car right? :rolleyes:

[saadie]

^^ hehe ..

m0ng0l01dz your concept about kit cars is totally wrong ... no offence :) ..

a caterham .. ariel atom .. radicals .. these cars are kit cars ... because they are not Production cars ;)

hmm so all the cars listed below are kit cars huh ? .. :lol:
Pagani Zonda
Gumpert Appolo
Mclaren F1
Saleen
Koenigsegg CC8s
help me out here people :lol:


ohh and strapping in a AMG V12 in a beetle wouldnt make the beetle a kitcar :lol: ... just think for yourself :lol:

[m0ng0l01dz]

help me out here people :lol:


ohh and strapping in a AMG V12 in a beetle wouldnt make the beetle a kitcar :lol: ... just think for yourself :lol:
OK lets look at the similarities of swapping a v12 in a bug v. Pagani.
V12 in a bug, the bug is a production car!
The v12 is a production engine
Now the pagani
The pagani is a production car
The amg V12 is a production engine
Now , I cant really see many differences there so I'll try to examine deeper
The Pagani was designed to use an AMG powerplant
The bettle was designed to use a german engine... ummm....
still not seeing the differences.
Maybe we should look at the ariel atom?
Honda K20 motor or GM Ecotec
now I see a difference! If it can use more than one engine, its a kit car!
But my buddy's "bubbagump CTR" uses a k20 now and it previously had a b16, Kit Car? Its all honda with tuner parts. NIRA says its legit cause it all from one manufacturer, but I think they'd have a hard time with a pagani, one they wouldnt have with a saleen since they have a direct affiliation with fomoco, or else then we'd have to say that a ford gt is a kit car since saleen builds the engine?which ford provides.
The obvious issue you are having is one of lust.
You care about the pagani so much that you are refusing to see it for what it is.:crying::!:
As far as people helping you out here, we are gonna need a therapist and a script for cymbalta to allow you to sleep at night after having such a paradigmatic shift in your consciousness.
You're a swell fella tre|\|to|\|.:-P

[m0ng0l01dz]

Mate are you consistently high? Yesss!:mrgreen: Let it go already, 9/10 car people will tell you Pagani is not a kit car, the engine is from a clk gtr, but the rest is different, where as your friends Civics might do 10 secs, but they still have lots of parts that you can find on a standard Civic, how you compare a fast civic with a Pagani is really beyond me. I didnt say it was a comparison, merely an example of a fallacy of thought, and the 1/10 that agree with me means that there is a discrepancy ( I just hope the they are all BSME's as well :)

Oh and another thing, if Pagani was badged as a Mercedes that would instantly make it not a kit car right? :rolleyes: uh... yeah! it makes it now a Mercedes.:rolleyes: But more so a pagani*
*featuring Mercedes AMG V12:-P
My point is simply that they are not constructors, not tuners, but a plastic supply company.
OOH I want the new Hasbro with kung fu grip!:-D

[saadie]

owhh you know my old fake name .... sweet ;) ..

lets settle this with a poll ..

http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53288 :-P

[Shinigami]

The popular definition on the net shows that "kit car" is an automobile available in kit form. You buy the pieces and build it yourself. By that definition, the Ariel Atom is not a kit car.

If kit car overcame other definitions, then one could call a very large number of vehicles kit cars. e.g. most parts in a Volvo come from Ford parts bins. How much in a Vanquish is really "Aston Martin", coz there too, you'll find Volvo side mirrors and doors from Mazda.

The concept of using parts from across ranges of vehicles is not a new concept, and just because the Zonda has a V12 from MB would not make it a kit car based on the first analogy. In fact, a very large portion of the "Zonda" is built uniquely at their own factory (parts machined from solid aluminium, nevermind the unique CF body).

Very few cars these days have truly unique parts. Those that do such as the new Mazda MX5 (some 90% of all parts are unique) still come with a Ford EcoTech engine. So it's a kit car all of a sudden?

Someone seems to be generalizing the term "kit car" a bit too much.

[vexor]

Lewis Hamilton uncut pt.1 http://www.topgear.com/content/videos/videos/136/broadband_wm.html
Lewis Hamilton uncut pt.2 http://www.topgear.com/content/videos/videos/137/broadband_wm.html

News uncut pt.1 http://www.topgear.com/content/videos/videos/138/broadband_wm.html
News uncut pt.2 http://www.topgear.com/content/videos/videos/139/broadband_wm.html
News uncut pt.3 http://www.topgear.com/content/videos/videos/140/broadband_wm.html

[m0ng0l01dz]

ROFL. So you think if you stick and AMG engine in a beetle, that it'll break the Nürburgring lap record as well? ROFLMAO

So by you definition, if a company doesn't build the engine themselves, then that means it's a kit car? So I guess the McLaren F1 is a kit car as well. Oh and the first Koenigseggs...

EDIT: Oh and btw, as stated before, the Ariel Atom is NOT a kit car either. A kit-car by definition is a car "available in kit form, i.e. you buy a set of parts that you have to assemble yourself."



The car is nothing on its own, remove the merc motor and you have a sculpture. I'd be impressed by it if they had built a motor for it. All the performance is coming from a merc powerplant, can pagani build a motor? no? well then. It might as well be a kit car, but the demand law says that no one would want one if they had to build it, theyd just buy the clk. Ford ,Chevy, Honda, Ferrari, Mercedes, are all constructors that build super cars. When you piece together you supercar from their parts bin, what have you really done?Ruf has the decency, AMG , Callaway, Lingenfelter, Shelby, Spoon, all have the decency to admit their cars are improvements of their respective marques. There is no pagani besides an ex lambo tech. Pagani is more Dallara and Merc then it is Horacio.
As far as a beetle transplant doing a lap, no way in hell! But a tuned Nissan GTR just might? Being just 10 seconds behind the fastest Pagani, and 3 seconds behind the slowest pagani and sever tens of thousands of GBP less. Oh and its all Nissan! do you see the difference now?

[saadie]

:lol: ...
ThAll the performance is coming from a merc powerplant, can pagani build a motor? no? well then. It might as well be a kit car
WRONG :P ...
one thing you are forgetting .. the merc V12 made for pagani .. is especially made for pagani .. its not just another merc engine ... ;) :P

soo your saying ... Williams F1 car is just a kit car because they use toyota engines ? .. lol

your concepts are just wrong .. :)

btw ;)
http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?p=807494#post807494

[saadie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit_car ... ;)

i was wrong about the Atom .... you are wrong about everyhting .. haha

pwned .. :-P

[m0ng0l01dz]

:lol: ...

WRONG :P ...
one thing you are forgetting .. the merc V12 made for pagani .. is especially made for pagani .. its not just another merc engine ... ;) :P But Pagani doesnt build it.

soo your saying ... Williams F1 car is just a kit car because they use toyota engines ? .. lol An F1 car? Wow you have officially cranked out every illogical argument statement you can! Straw man has been thrown, Red Herring's have been thrown, and the penultimate illogical argument statement... PWNED. Doesnt change the fact that the car sucks , you suck, and your mother smells of Elderberries:-P:!::?:

your concepts are just wrong .. :)

btw ;)
http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?p=807494#post807494
and the creme de la creme of all wasted time effort and energy, the poll.
Ive got this funny feeling you drive a Yugo GV Turbo, with all your dreams of conspicuous consumption.
I'm bored now.
Bring on the next episode of top gear. and stop Hating.

[regele]

Ive got this funny feeling you drive a Yugo GV Turbo, with all your dreams of conspicuous consumption.

He drives in the Formula BMW
pwned :laugh:

[m0ng0l01dz]

He drives in the Formula BMW
pwned :laugh:
I can't believe you stooped to lying about something thats public record! I checked all 4 FBMW drivers list's past and present , and found nothing to support your claim, so I went to another source at MPROVED ( a BMW afficiando and performance driving instructor) and once again came up snake eyes. Please feel free to correct this, I'd hate to think I didnt search deep enough. Please provide a link from one of the official Formula BMW websites and AFOS.

[graywolf624]

The bit with Hammond and the formula one car was very eye opening. I can only day dream about ever driving one, but I have to wonder if I even have the reflexes quick enough to do anything of any value in one. Great piece though I wish theyd spent more time in each car. A whole show could have been made out of this one piece and it would have been way more entertainign then any challenge.

The old car search was also interesting. That being said the Model A ford was conspicious by its abscence. It did have proper standard running gear and was available in 1929. Granted this is much later then the Caddy but I dare say it is really mostly responsible for the adaption of this standard in controls.

The vauxhall vxr bit was well shot as usual.

Unfortunately Id already seen the bit on the BMW test car from other sources. That sort of blunted the whole show bit. Still it was an entertaining watch.

Ill just ignore the star in a reasonably priced car as Im not up enough on pop culture to know who he is. Lewis on the other hand was the real star. He did a fantastic lap. Its a shame they didn't milk his presence for a mono e mono with the stig.. Id at least like to have seen what he did in the dry.

[Vansquish]

OK lets look at the similarities of swapping a v12 in a bug v. Pagani.
V12 in a bug, the bug is a production car!
The v12 is a production engine
Now the pagani
The pagani is a production car
The amg V12 is a production engine
Now , I cant really see many differences there so I'll try to examine deeper
The Pagani was designed to use an AMG powerplant
The bettle was designed to use a german engine... ummm....
still not seeing the differences.
Maybe we should look at the ariel atom?
Honda K20 motor or GM Ecotec
now I see a difference! If it can use more than one engine, its a kit car!
But my buddy's "bubbagump CTR" uses a k20 now and it previously had a b16, Kit Car? Its all honda with tuner parts. NIRA says its legit cause it all from one manufacturer, but I think they'd have a hard time with a pagani, one they wouldnt have with a saleen since they have a direct affiliation with fomoco, or else then we'd have to say that a ford gt is a kit car since saleen builds the engine?which ford provides.
The obvious issue you are having is one of lust.
You care about the pagani so much that you are refusing to see it for what it is.:crying::!:
As far as people helping you out here, we are gonna need a therapist and a script for cymbalta to allow you to sleep at night after having such a paradigmatic shift in your consciousness.
You're a swell fella tre|\|to|\|.:-P

Now this is a serious logical fallacy. The idea that the cars that Pagani makes have been designed specifically to accept AMG V12 engines is equivalent to the fact that VW designed the Beetle to accept another "German engine" is completely useless as an argument. They're two completely different animals. The beetle was designed to use a teeny flat four nothing at all from a Mercedes of any variety.

As for the Pagani Zonda being a kit car, let's try a list of cars here that use what you might term "crate" engines or engines from another manufacturer...

Ariel Atom
AC Cobra
Saleen S7
Morgan Aero 8
Morgan V6 roadster
Morgan +8
Morgan +4
...all Morgan cars actually...
Marcos Mantis
Marcos Mantaray
Marcos Mantula
...basically all Marcos cars
Holden HSV8
Holden VXR8
Pontiac G8
(Chevy engines in a Pontiac)
Chapparal cars
Ford GT40 - not the GT mind you, the GT40 (Roush-engineered V8s)
Fiat Croma
Lincoln LS
Aston Martin Vanquish - Ford Mondeo/Taurus based DOHC 3.0L V6 multiplied by 2
Aston Martin DB9 - Ford Mondeo/Taurus based DOHC 3.0L V6 multiplied by 2
Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Jaguar-based engine
Lancia Thema 8.32
Alfa Romeo's new V6 159 has a GM engine in it
Ford, Peugeot and Citroen have an ongoing deal to make diesel engines for mass-produced cars...does that make them kits as well?
Bentley Continental GT and Continental Flying Spur have VW W12's
Detomaso has used Ford engines since their inception, does that make the Pantera, Mangusta (old and new), Guara and Vallelunga kits?
Farbio GTS (tuned Mondeo V6 engines)
Ginetta
Koenigsegg uses Ford-based V8 engines
Lotus (except for the Esprit V8, they've basically all been outsourced engines)
Isdera was a supercar manufacturer that used all Mercedes engines (not unlike Pagani)
Invicta used a Ford V8
Jensen's S-V8 used a Ford 4.6L V8 and the company had used various Chrysler powerplants before they went under...again.
Gordon Murray's LCC Rocket had a Motorcycle engine in it
The Lister Storm had a 7.0L Jaguar V12
As others have already pointed out, the Mclaren F1 has a BMW-designed 6.1L V11
MG's have long used communal engines from British Leyland manufacturers and from Ford.
Panoz uses Ford engines
The Protomotors Spirra uses Ford's 4.6
Range Rover and Land Rover have used Ford, Jaguar and BMW engines in recent years
Spectre used Ford 4.6L V8's
Spyker uses Audi engines
TVR has used Rover V8's in the past
Vector has used Chevrolet V8's and Lamborghini V12 running gear in their vehicles.
Venturi used Renault V6 engines
Weismann uses BMW engines...

I can probably think of a few more, but why bother? I don't see why you see outsourcing engines for production vehicles to be criteria for calling them "kits". The whole point behind a "kit" car is that it comes unfinished from the manufacturer and has to be assembled either by the customer or by a third party company before it becomes available for sale. The Noble M12 is a perfect example of this...in the US. In Europe the car comes fully-assembled from Noble. In the US in order to avoid some taxation and various governmental requirements, the car comes from the factory minus engine and transmission, and these must be supplied and installed after the customer has the car. The cars I've listed above all are fully-built vehicles...though the Atom can be had with a choice of engines ranging from Chevrolet Ecotec to Honda.

[m0ng0l01dz]

vanquish

1 : to overcome in battle : subdue completely 2 : to defeat in a conflict or contest 3 : to gain mastery over (an emotion, passion, or temptation) <vanquish your fear>

you live in Dearborn? Disgrace!
Aston, Range rover, Land Rover, Lincoln, Jaguar, is owned by ford
Shelby's cobra and Saleen's road rocket, deep mutual investments in ford
the gt40 was a dfv Ford engine
Holden is a GM brand
Chaparral, lister, are you seriously adding race cars to this?
Jensen is like the 1930's pimp my ride
Your case is full of holes because you dont understand the car business, as a consumer I can see where your lack of understanding comes from, but as a resident of Dearborn not to know jack about ford is disgusting! Maybe I take it for granted having lived in Saginaw, Ypsilanti, and that wonderful summer in hamtramck Or maybe I just take for granted the general ignorance of teenagers. Take some time gather your thoughts and try again.
Nissan, you failed to mention Nissan, owned in part by Renault whom is owned in part by Nissan. But the Nissan GTR has no Renault parts in it, is built by a company that not only builds economy cars and luxury as well, but builds them all in house.
I could build one hell of a car with someone else's running gear, brakes by Brembo, suspension tuned by lotus, and aerodynamic testing done by Langley, but then what would I have? A modern day DeLorean!
So are we squabbling over who assembles the Frankencar? you or some other blokes that slap their sticker on it? When Factory Five builds your cobra it's a factory five, when you build your cobra it's still a Factory Five!
Here you'll enjoy this (http://www.kitcarusa.com/kitcar_news.php)

[m0ng0l01dz]

35th post makes me a Member now, That doesn't sound like a good thing?