Sauber, Ferrari subsidiary ?

[levensnevel]

Have seen the all new Sauber for the 2004 season (a Ferrari GA 2003 look-a-like if you ask me) with Ferrari engine aswell as - gearbox. And I know that the FIA, for the time being, sees no infringements to the 2004 rules and will take no actions against Sauber / Ferrari. But I wonder how long it will take for the other teams to start complaining. Especially teams like Renault, Jaguar, Toyota and BAR....

[deth]

i'm not too knoledgable about F1, but IMO it takes more than the car to do well in F1. they have to have the strategy, drivers, trained personel etc. and well sauber doesnt exactly have the rep of being a winning team, so i doubt there'll be many complaints if any.

[veilsidebr]

i´ve been reading today that it´s just looks like, but not the same car. Sauber sad that the differences are few, but the car is not the same as the F2003GA.

:fist:

[levensnevel]

http://www.f1central.net/news/1074838257.html?PHPSESSID=24605f6f4e64b880afb54f9a d70d40fc
The plot thickens :mrgreen:

[FerrariKiller]

What can the FIA do? They can't afford to lose a team, so why not let Ferrari have four cars. If the FIA had an excess number of cars I'm sure they would do something. However, now their hands are tied.

[levensnevel]

The next step ....
http://www.f1central.net/news/1075184220.html?PHPSESSID=63c3c6118d5e744254d3acb9 e13cc5e9
This together with a quote from Ross Brawn during yesterdays car presentation
qte..
"For sure, we did not react aggressively enough to the opportunities presented by the 2003 regulation changes and for 2004, the work we are now conducting will ensure that we will not make the same mistake."
will mean that we will be in for a lot of heated debates this season :fadein:

[SFDMALEX]

Even if teams will complain, nothing will happen since we all know how good Ferrari is in the politics departament of the sport. :wink:

[levensnevel]

Another step
http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/040220090245.shtml

[ae86_16v]

i'm not too knoledgable about F1, but IMO it takes more than the car to do well in F1. they have to have the strategy, drivers, trained personel etc. and well sauber doesnt exactly have the rep of being a winning team, so i doubt there'll be many complaints if any.

Exactly. . . a lot has to come together for a winning team.

Toyota's been charged with the same thing. As a matter of fact a while ago their engineers got investigated for "Industrial Espionage" regarding Ferrari's designs.

Ehh, F-1 cars look more or less the same anyways. It is just the small subtle differences that matter.

[kteo2003]

let just say that from lastyear sauber "works"for ferrari..it is not only that they sell the engine or the old sashi but they get data and information from sauber...and who says that sauber can make in some circuits the life of the mclarens or the bmw drivers difficukt as to protect the ferrari...make the ferrari win by stopping the enemies of the ferrari.
toyota is another thing...ferrari accuses toyota that they have steal information and data...it is a totaly different thing.

[firdausasri]

I just hope that Saubers being backed up by Audis, that would be something isn't? Maybe Peter Sauber's wild card doesn't play too well to attract them even having a pair of German hotshots.

[bmwfreak]

*tsk tsk tsk* Ferrari's ethics here are plain to see. Win at all costs, even if the costs are : sportmanship, fairness etc, where the ends supposedly justify the means.

There was Austria 2002, Indy 2002, the tyre row with Michelin. Not to mention Malaysia 1999 (When Ferrari used a whole plane of Milan lawyers to convince a judge that trained engineers couldnt tell 1 mm from 5 - the barge boards saga).

the last incident prompted Ron Dennis to say "Moving aero surfaces are illegal, except when they're on a Ferrari."

The Sauber look slike a repainted F2003-GA. Alot of ppl, if nto everyone, seems to agree on this. Of ocurse, due to the already simliar designs that both teams use, it would be hard to really tell any differences. This will always be the case, unless someone tries to ape the FW26, and we find out that BAR is actually the second team of Williams. Hehehe.

[kteo2003]

i would like to ask....are the F1 cars so highly developed that ferrari or any other team has to have at least 4cars so as to make better time laps???
i mean ferrari has reached its limits????
because i cannot understand this passion to win at all costs....

[eCartman]

i would like to ask....are the F1 cars so highly developed that ferrari or any other team has to have at least 4cars so as to make better time laps???
i mean ferrari has reached its limits????
because i cannot understand this passion to win at all costs....


but then again it's pretty surprising how much money they can get from their sponsers. Ferrari is only spending what it can make, not a lot more. So when they don't get more money, they can't spend more to "win at all costs"

on the other hand, this can lead to more "technical cooperation" where Jordan or Minardi might get some help to stay in F1. I believe F1 is better off with more teams competiting, and with only a few large car manufacturs in the world, it's necessary to have private teams such as Saubar, Jordan and Minardi to fill the field.

[eCartman]

The FIA said some time ago that it would be interesting that some top teams would sell their old chasis to other teams... so, what's the problem?

I think there is indeed a rule in F1 that says teams have to design and build their own car. That's why it's so expensive to race in F1 even for smaller teams because they can't just buy other team's car (new or old).

They must design and build them themselves. Maybe this is a new loophole where they can design using some other team's knowledge and build them themselves.

It just might work for smaller teams if they can get their hands on those info from top teams.

[kteo2003]

i am not so sure that all the teams design the F1 cars themselves...
take an example
sauber pretty much the same as F2003GA
toyota that is stealing from ferrari...
and there are a lot of teams that buy a lot of things from other better teams...
as i think that from this year jordan will buy the engine from mclaren sauber from ferrari etc..

[levensnevel]

Here we go
http://www.f1central.net/news/1078375279.html?PHPSESSID=618291de4faed2ab41f1833b 9e16c229

[espen]

Its pretty ironic that teams complain when Sauber is getting a little help from Ferrari. They've got ten times the funding, and still cant get things straight - so obviously they have to try to block Sauber - there's not a single team in F1 that can even approach Saubers $/point balance. The only thing holding Sauber back is funds - so I for one hope ferrari dumps a mountaiin of money and knowhow into Sauber.

If Toyota, BAR and most notably Jaguar want to complain for beling outraced by Ferrari, thats fair. After all they havent got a snowballs chance to outrun either Ferrari or Williams. But the complaining over Saber is just petty - Toyota for one should be painfully aware that the prionts to a great car does not make a winning team no matter how much money you throw at it.

Go Sauber. Screw the mediocre moneymunchers! :wink:

[caugb]

So now we have 6 similar cars: 2 Ferraris, 2 authorized-copies Saubers and 2 unauthorized Toyotas.
Looks like IRL and the bunch of Chip Ganassi's customers? Or is it Indy Car? Or World Indy? How could americans split one championship in two? That's why F1 is so ridiculous these times: lack of competition...

[levensnevel]

Thanks to Jabba's capture of ITV's coverage of the Australian GP I picked up something Ross Brawn said after the race.
Situation: Sauber is using the same engines as Ferrari and, apparently, one of the engines used by Sauber developped a problem during the race.
Ross Brawn told the ITV reporter that they were aware of the Sauber 'problem' and that they subsequently told their drivers to take care.
Just wondering if Ferrari has realtime access to Saubers' telemetary during the race aswell :fadein: