Californian forest fires

[deuces]

its over 1 million people now. it's a pretty serious now. i talked to my parents in LA, and they said that its only getting hotter, but the winds are supposed to die down this week, which should relieve some pressure from the fires, but they will definitely be an issue for quite some time.

[acmarttin]

This is the 2nd big fire in 2 years for Malibu. They're really prone to that sort of thing I hear. Even so nobody asked for this. I feel for those people. It's scary to think everything you have may be destroyed. My house got flooded when I was a kid. It didn't even get out of our basement but it still sucked. I can't imagine what these people are going through. Hopefully the disaster reaction is better for these people than the folks in New Orleans.

[5vz-fe]

I hope insurance will be able to compensate these ppl fairly (and keep on insuring them after)

[79TA]

I hate to be pessimistic, but I doubt we'll be getting rain. We just had rain the other week so it's unlikely we'll get any for a while. It's amazing how many different fires started at similar times. I'm convinced that some idiot started atleast some of them. The last two days were really windy and that carried the smoke and ash into otherwise unaffected areas (like mine).

[Pokiou]

its cause of the muslims ;)...

i feel for the people that live in that area.

[nthfinity]

Nobody has written about these yet? :?

Seems that the nature is still the most harsh punisher for us mankind. More than 500,000 people have left their homes, 4 have died and over 40 injured, most of them are firemen. I guess this year goes to history with the worst forest fires ever.
I hope the rain comes to California. My thoughts are with the people in there.

This happens every year around this time in California... why reported now? its in the more wealthy areas.

What is causing it?

It is illegal in California to remove brush from the woods surrounding your property. The brush builds up, and is TONS of kindling to feet the fire for quick and rapid expansion.... not just the Santa Ana Winds alone.

People who have saved their homes have illegally removed the brush from around their homes.. many have not done so, and those have lost the homes.

Insurance scam perhaps? in the event of a housing crunch, and you cannot afford the payments much longer... destruction and insurance claims pull them right now, all the while, the property value drops to re-purchass in the same local. but that is conspiracy talk that is totally unsubstantiated...

however, the Green law regarding forest brush removal is 100% true OMG true :(

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by the by

The evacuees staying in the sports stadium are even receiving stress relieving massages WTF!!!?!?!

[MidEngine4Life]

Over 500,000 people evacuated and counting? Thats insane! Quick lets name some famous cities with that population or less. Oakland, Sacramento, Atlanta........

[79TA]

Nobody has written about these yet? :?

Seems that the nature is still the most harsh punisher for us mankind. More than 500,000 people have left their homes, 4 have died and over 40 injured, most of them are firemen. I guess this year goes to history with the worst forest fires ever.
I hope the rain comes to California. My thoughts are with the people in there.

This happens every year around this time in California... why reported now? its in the more wealthy areas.

What is causing it?

It is illegal in California to remove brush from the woods surrounding your property. The brush builds up, and is TONS of kindling to feet the fire for quick and rapid expansion.... not just the Santa Ana Winds alone.

People who have saved their homes have illegally removed the brush from around their homes.. many have not done so, and those have lost the homes.

Insurance scam perhaps? in the event of a housing crunch, and you cannot afford the payments much longer... destruction and insurance claims pull them right now, all the while, the property value drops to re-purchass in the same local. but that is conspiracy talk that is totally unsubstantiated...

however, the Green law regarding forest brush removal is 100% true OMG true :(

-----------

by the by

The evacuees staying in the sports stadium are even receiving stress relieving massages WTF!!!?!?!

OK, let's get a couple of things straightened out. The reason this is getting so much coverage is that this is about the worst we've had. It is true that Malibu burning is more likely to get media attention, but that particular fire isn't the worst one right now. Yes, we get fires every year, but they're normally limited to one or two areas and the number of homes lost can't be expressed in hundreds.

The brush laws you mention are in effect in some places just as you mentioned. Too much "environmental concern" exists in those areas. However, in other areas, it is required that one clears the brush on their property for the reason of fire prevention. Not all of Southern California is insane thank you.

[nthfinity]

I was just thinking that isn't those fires about the easiest form of terrorist strike? One man can walk around dropping burning matches and if one of them catches the fire, then it's already worth it. The fires in Greece this summer were lit up intentionally. Scary thought, since dry lands and forest are very common in everywhere during summer.

I didn't know about such bush laws. Sounds as stupid as possible.

indredibly retarded....

The Healthy Forests Initiative, and there have been something like 59 lawsuits holding up the implementation....it would go in there and clear out the deadwood and the brush and take away the kindling -- and these environmental groups, they are to blame for this.

t is purely and precisely because of lawsuits to keep individuals and cities, communities, and so forth, from going in and clearing out the brush, the dead stuff that's fallen from the trees. It's on the bottom of the forest floor, and it makes kindling, and there's nothing we can do about it. It's a federal crime right now because the bill is being held up in the courts. It's a crime to go in there and protect your property by clearing this stuff out.

79TA, its only going to continue being just as bad, or get worse until those law makers, and courts get their heads out of their own asses. There is one reason why its the worst its ever been in THAT area... remember the MASSIVE fires in Michigan years ago? How about the millions of acres that burned in Yellowstone? and elsewhere.... anybody who thinks "its the worst its ever been" is simply arrogant.

But, I agree.... it isn't necessary to have been this 'bad'

However, remember, this is FEDERAL law, not local ;)

[79TA]

I was just thinking that isn't those fires about the easiest form of terrorist strike? One man can walk around dropping burning matches and if one of them catches the fire, then it's already worth it. The fires in Greece this summer were lit up intentionally. Scary thought, since dry lands and forest are very common in everywhere during summer.

I didn't know about such bush laws. Sounds as stupid as possible.

indredibly retarded....

The Healthy Forests Initiative, and there have been something like 59 lawsuits holding up the implementation....it would go in there and clear out the deadwood and the brush and take away the kindling -- and these environmental groups, they are to blame for this.



t is purely and precisely because of lawsuits to keep individuals and cities, communities, and so forth, from going in and clearing out the brush, the dead stuff that's fallen from the trees. It's on the bottom of the forest floor, and it makes kindling, and there's nothing we can do about it. It's a federal crime right now because the bill is being held up in the courts. It's a crime to go in there and protect your property by clearing this stuff out.

79TA, its only going to continue being just as bad, or get worse until those law makers, and courts get their heads out of their own asses. There is one reason why its the worst its ever been in THAT area... remember the MASSIVE fires in Michigan years ago? How about the millions of acres that burned in Yellowstone? and elsewhere.... anybody who thinks "its the worst its ever been" is simply arrogant.

But, I agree.... it isn't necessary to have been this 'bad'

However, remember, this is FEDERAL law, not local ;)

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/pdf/canyonhills.pdf

Here's an example of some of what nth is talking about.

Once again though, brush clearing is not only legal in some areas, but required.

[nthfinity]

President Bush Signs Healthy Forests Restoration Act into Law

* On December 3, 2003, President Bush signed into law the Healthy Forests Restoration Act of 2003 to reduce the threat of destructive wildfires while upholding environmental standards and encouraging early public input during review and planning processes. The legislation is based on sound science and helps further the President.s Healthy Forests Initiative pledge to care for America.s forests and rangelands, reduce the risk of catastrophic fire to communities, help save the lives of firefighters and citizens, and protect threatened and endangered species.
* The Healthy Forests Restoration Act:
o Strengthens public participation in developing high priority forest health projects;
o Reduces the complexity of environmental analysis allowing federal land agencies to use the best science available to actively manage land under their protection;
o Provides a more effective appeals process encouraging early public participation in project planning; and
o Issues clear guidance for court action against forest health projects.
* The Administration and a bipartisan majority in Congress supported the legislation and are joined by a variety of environmental conservation groups.

The Need for Common-Sense Forest Legislation

* Catastrophic fires, particularly those experienced in California, Arizona, Colorado, Montana and Oregon over the past two years, burn hotter and faster than most ordinary fires.
* Visibility and air quality are reduced, threatening even the health of many who do not live near the fires.
* The habitat for endangered species and other wildlife is destroyed.
* Federal forests and rangelands also face threats from the spread of invasive species and insect attacks.
* In the past two years alone, 147,049 fires burned nearly 11 million acres
o 2002: 88,458 fires burned roughly 7 million acres and caused the deaths of 23 firefighters;
o 2003 (thus far): 59,149 fires have burned 3.8 million acres and caused the deaths of 28 firefighters.
o Nearly 6,800 structures have been destroyed in 2003 (approximately 4,800 in California).
o The California fires alone cost $250 million to contain and 22 civilians have died as a result.

----------------

Last Friday, Interior Secretary Gale Norton lauded the forest management, wildfire prevention, and habitat restoration work of the staff, partners and support groups of Turnbull National Wildlife Refuge, saying they are an outstanding example of what can be done through community partnerships under President Bush's National Fire Plan and Healthy Forest Initiative.

Her remarks followed meetings with refuge staff, members of the Friends of Turnbull, and representatives of other refuge partner groups and a tour of several successful Healthy Forest Initiative projects at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife site in Cheney, Washington.

Noting that President Bush has proposed $760 million in the FY 2005 budget to continue his Healthy Forests Initiative, Norton said the requested funds would support activities, such as those at the Trumbull refuge, that improve forest and rangeland management, develop and maintain healthier landscapes, and reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfires.

"Turnbull National Wildlife Refuge is a model program under our National Fire Plan." Norton said. "The refuge has but one goal for its forest management program-the biological health of the forest ecosystem. Turnbull also is an example of national wildlife refuges across the nation that are using the tools provided by the Healthy Forests Initiative to improve habitat, protect species, and reduce the threat of wildfires."

The overstocked ponderosa pine stands at Turnbull are being addressed with solutions that are used on other lands through the National Fire Plan, Norton noted, saying "From an ecosystem management perspective, hazard fuel reduction projects are effective."

"Scientists tell us there are now hundreds or even thousands of pines per acre in eastern Washington and at Turnbull National Wildlife Refuge, where once there were only 40 to 60," Norton said. "There are now far too many stands of scrawny, dog hair pines."

Noting the complexity of healthy forest ecosystems, Norton said the National Fire Plan and the President's Healthy Forest Initiative are designed to tackle these issues. President Bush introduced his Healthy Forests Initiative in August 2002 during the height of one of the most destructive wildfire seasons in 50 years. The president signed the Healthy Forests Restoration Act, which received bipartisan support in the Congress, on Dec. 3, 2003.

The President's FY '05 Healthy Forests budget proposal, about a $500 million increase from FY 2000, takes an integrated approach to reducing hazardous fuels and restoring forest and rangeland health.

"The increase represents the President's determination and strong commitment to reduce the threat of catastrophic wildfires and to restore the health of our nation's forests and rangelands," Norton said. "This funding level, coupled with collaboration with local communities such as those here at Turnbull National Wildlife Refuge and other land-management tools provided under the President's Healthy Forests Initiative will enhance the ability of field managers to make decisions more effectively and more quickly."

The fuels reduction program will be integrated with programs that support wildlife habitat improvements, watershed enhancements, vegetation management, and stewardship timber harvest and forest health research to achieve more comprehensive and effective results on the ground.

The FY '05 proposed Healthy Forests Initiative budget will reduce hazardous fuel loads and insect infestation on nearly four million acres, up from 1.2 million in FY 2000. From 2001-2003, the Forest Service and Interior agencies treated a total of 7 million acres. In 2004, the agencies intend to treat an additional 3.7 million acres.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service consistently burns a greater percentage of its lands than any other agency, at an overall cheaper cost, contributing to its leadership in meeting and exceeding the department's established goals for hazardous fuels reduction, Norton noted. As a result of prescribed burning and wild land fire use, Service-managed lands are maintained in the best and safest ecological condition among the agencies, with over 70 percent rated in "good" condition.

Several years ago, the forested habitat here at Turnbull refuge--about 11,000 acres--was in an unhealthy condition due to decades of fire suppression and selective harvesting of the ponderosa pine. The strategy to improve forest habitat has involved mechanical thinning treatments followed by prescribed fire to restore pine stands to a more historic density. The biological goal is to reduce existing densities of 400-600 trees per acre to 40-60 trees per acre. Initially this has been accomplished by mechanical thinning followed by rotations of prescribed fires.

With increased emphasis in the National Fire Plan and the increased funding that has been provided, prescribed fires at Turnbull refuge have increased from historic levels of treating 350-450 acres per year to treating more than 1,000 acres per year. Since 2001, under the hazardous fuels treatment program, the refuge has thinned 537 acres and prescribed burned 2,474 acres. Most of the thinning work was contracted to local contractors.

Additionally, under the Wildland Urban Interface program, the refuge has led efforts since 2001 to mechanically thin 240 acres of private land and 1,157 acres of refuge lands that could threaten residential areas around the refuge. All of these projects were accomplished with private contractors.

[79TA]

Here are a couple of pictures that my friend in San Diego took. She had things packed etc, but did not have to evacuate.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9445/n70933043615321662763cu0.jpg


http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1039/n70933043615321673014bc5.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8633/n70933043615321652493an1.jpg

[Zot09]

When the fire started on Sunday, I thought the plume of smoke was from a house on fire. I realized later on when I got home that the fire was actually pretty big. The weather has been pretty hot recently, and the winds are blowing like crazy. It sucks to go outside b/c all you breath in is smoke and ash :(

Some people didn't even make it to my O-chem midterm yesterday b/c of the fire. I hope this fire ends soon for the sake of all the people at risk.


This happens every year around this time in California... why reported now? its in the more wealthy areas.



True, a lot of wealthy areas are being affected, but not all are wealthy. I saw a trailer park almost burn down live on the news. Just b/c it's SoCal doesn't mean that their aren't any lower-class regions.

Here are a couple of pictures that my friend in San Diego took. She had things packed etc, but did not have to evacuate.
[/img]

I heard UCSD isn't having class for this whole week. Crazy.

I was just thinking that isn't those fires about the easiest form of terrorist strike? One man can walk around dropping burning matches and if one of them catches the fire, then it's already worth it.

I heard the fire in Irvine was started by an arsonist, and not a traveling ember.

[ae86_16v]

Yeah, I work in Irvine and they closed the office yesterday and were thinking about closing it today. That fire was started by someone in 3 places. I really hope they catch that guy.

Sucks man, it does happen every year but this year there are 14 fires at once so resources are stretched.

Air quality is a bit better today, but yesterday was really bad, it was hard to breath while walking outside.

[novass]

The weather where I am has noticeably gotten worse the past 2-3 days. It usually doesn't affect my area because I am close enough to the beach to get the breeze coming off the ocean and because this area far enough away from the "hot spots."(i.e. no forests nearby) This afternoon, at about 4pm, the whole sky was a dark gray-orange color, the air was really dry and it was hot.

I know quite a few people both in the San Diego area and the Malibu area, I hope they and everyone will be okay.

[tospok]

Seems that the nature is still the most harsh punisher for us mankind.

Wrong, we are the most harsh punishers for nature.

[mayer]

Just a little clarification, fires of this magnitude DO NOT happen every year here. The amount of news coverage has to do with the size of the disaster, and not the wealthy neighborhoods affected. I've lived in San Diego for over 20 years and have never seen anything like this or the other recent Cedar Fire from 2003.

According to my employer, one in three homeowners have been evacuated.

Anyone who wants to see how big this thing is in San Diego, check out this Google map. This thing is running over everything including large bodies of water.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=114250687465160386813.00043d08ac31fe3357571&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=8

Edit: BTW, there's no way in hell most homeowners will be made whole by the insurance companies. There was a huge debacle back in 2003. Some insurers like AllState have pulled out altogether from accepting new home insurance policies. Expect more after this and/or premiums to go up in a big way.

[Mattk]

Canberra, our capital, was poorly sited, being surrounded by hills, and as a result, a few years ago, fires swept down hills and burnt houses as the flames progressed. Judging from the pictures in the news, it seems similar things are happening here.

With regard to brush-clearing, not doing so is irresponsible and negligent. To pass a law banning it is incomprehensible, given how combustible that stuff is. Not really related, but grass/plant covered medians on highways are bad because they keep fires burning, whereas before, they would torch the road, then just run out of combustible matter very quickly.

[79TA]

Seems that the nature is still the most harsh punisher for us mankind.

Wrong, we are the most harsh punishers for nature.

That was uninsightful and you did nothing to disprove his statement. Perhaps if you'd retorted with a statement about man being his own worst enemy it would have been relevant. But yes, I see you're trying to make the usual argument about people being so hard on nature etc. In this particular case, it was the environmentalists who did the most harm with too many laws to "protect" nature.

[nthfinity]

Seems that the nature is still the most harsh punisher for us mankind.

Wrong, we are the most harsh punishers for nature.

LMFAO

OK, go drive your bicycle and dont live in a wood house, since thats made of wood, dont use water that comes from a tap blah blah, you seriously crack me up each time you post about the environment...as you keep proving you know VERY little about it

[RC45]

Seems that the nature is still the most harsh punisher for us mankind.

Wrong, we are the most harsh punishers for nature.

Thats for sure... CamZilla burns more gas in 1 day, than 100 Prius Hybrids do in a year - I can only hope in so doing I kill 1000 acres of wild forest :P