Toyota green light for Hybrid Sports Car as Supra successor

[dutchmasterflex]

http://www.thetorquereport.com/fths_side-thumb.jpg

The June '07 print edition of Automobile is full of juicy information, and one of the more significant bits of news appears in a sidebar on page 30. According to the magazine, Toyota has given the FT-HS hybrid sports car the green light, and the Calty-designed production version will make its debut in 2009. It's being billed by Automobile as the spiritual successor to the late, lamented Supra -- a position that's hard to argue assuming you can look past the probable lack of an inline 6. Like the concept, the two-seat FT-HS will pair the company's Hybrid Synergy Drive with an as-yet-undetermined gasoline engine (the concept utilized a 3.5-liter V6). Power and pricing aren't discussed, but if the numbers thrown around when the concept was introduced -- 400 horses and mid-level dollar amounts -- are feasible, the thing should have plenty of takers.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/05/09/toyota-ft-hs-coming-in-2009/ via http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/05/the_spiritual_successor_to_the.html

[ferrarif1fan89]

http://ualuealuealeuale.ytmnd.com/

^more interesting than another hybrid, anyways.

[saadie]

looks like an audi :S ... but anwyay ....

Hybrid = Gay

[chest3r]

Just when I thought Toyota would finally build a decent car, they come up with these. At least they could have a normal version and an hybrid one. It might be an interesting car, but I pretty sure I will always prefer a petrol noisy engine ! :twisted:

[Erez]

Hybrid = Gay
+1

Hybrid is not only gay, its lames as well.. just shows how dumb people are... can't wait for normal new technology.. has to be here and now.. no matter how dumb.. :roll:

[chest3r]

Hybrid = Gay
+1

Hybrid is not only gay, its lames as well.. just shows how dumb people are... can't wait for normal new technology.. has to be here and now.. no matter how dumb.. :roll:

Exactly!! And hybrids are not as environment friendly as some owners and that gay (aka Al Gore) say. They pollute a lot when being made!!

[Erez]

..and where does that electricity to recharge it comes from? flowers? :roll: :wink:
people are so "Hollywoodly" stupid..
I tell you what, just to piss them all of, first car I'll buy in the US will have a nice American engine something around the 5.7L maybe :P with straightpipes :twisted: :fuck:

[dutchmasterflex]

don't be afraid, they're just batteries.

Think of it as a heavier turbo that is 1000% more efficient

Remember this is not an economy car like the Prius, it will have a power gasoline engine with an additional electric motor to save gas while giving it an extra 100hp or so hp and instant torque.

If they can keep the weight down from the batteries, or atleast make them really thin and mount them on the bottom of the car, this car will be probably be the beginning of a future of hybrid sports cars.

[Pokiou]

This is good news... im looking forward to this .!!!

[Erez]

..I just dont see it as the right direction forward..

[nthfinity]

What are you going to do with the Hydrogen Sulfide? the environmental impact on chemical equivlancy puts it above Hummer H2 levels...

Hybrids don't end up getting the claimed fuel savings

they weight a lot more, and require quite a few extra motors on top of the battery

fuel savings not there = nearly equal CO2 emmisions... how dumb are people?

[Mattk]

The idea of a hybrid sports car is somewhat paradoxical. As novel as this concept is, I don't think it's worth it.

[Pokiou]

I was talking about the car design.. im sure they will make a petrol edition.

[dutchmasterflex]

What are you going to do with the Hydrogen Sulfide? the environmental impact on chemical equivlancy puts it above Hummer H2 levels...

Hybrids don't end up getting the claimed fuel savings

they weight a lot more, and require quite a few extra motors on top of the battery

fuel savings not there = nearly equal CO2 emmisions... how dumb are people?

You can't deny the better mileage you get in city stop and go driving conditions. Which is abot 80% of the time we spend driving.

[dutchmasterflex]

The idea of a hybrid sports car is somewhat paradoxical. As novel as this concept is, I don't think it's worth it.



Why not? Better every day performance (you are not driving on a track) with an increase in full efficiency.

They are just playing into the whole saving the world thing to sell these cars to the rich hippies.

[nthfinity]

What are you going to do with the Hydrogen Sulfide? the environmental impact on chemical equivlancy puts it above Hummer H2 levels...

Hybrids don't end up getting the claimed fuel savings

they weight a lot more, and require quite a few extra motors on top of the battery

fuel savings not there = nearly equal CO2 emmisions... how dumb are people?

You can't deny the better mileage you get in city stop and go driving conditions. Which is abot 80% of the time we spend driving.

when the gas engine is only off for about 10 ft. of the stop and go conditions, it doesn't help much.

besides, what are you going to do with the polluting and deadly battery? the extra weight? (of the electric motors too)

hybrids aren't the answer man.

Everso, of course the car he drove destroys the petrol version, because they wanted it to. spend any time with a car to make it perform, and it will be better tehn the dumbed down version that has the "gasoline motor" and not the hybrid....

wait

oh yeah, duh, gas engines can be made superior in performance easily

honestly, its a no brainer

[dutchmasterflex]

Battery technology is making great strides and will be a completely different game in the next decade.

Gasoline engine only turns on once you go towards 30mph which is just about every US Town's speed limit.

[nthfinity]

Battery technology is making great strides and will be a completely different game in the next decade.

Gasoline engine only turns on once you go towards 30mph which is just about every US Town's speed limit.

where are you getting your information from? I get mine from the powertrain engineers at GM, who are currently making the most advanced hybrid that will be available on the market.

[silentm]

^ concerning the batteries

a month ago or so i saw a report on TV that showed a hgih performance battery (new design materials ect) that shaved weight from 5kg for a normal battery down to 200g (or something really low, i can't recall correctly) for a model that brings the same performance than the old battery. it has been successfully tested in a lotus elise racecar that has compete in 3 24hrs races and the battery held perfectly

but of course where the electricity comes from is another question and a point that should be put into relation of normal petrol motors :hmm:

[gangajas]

2 engines>>>1 engine.

This is evolution, probably some people prefered steam engines to internal combustion engines when these were introduced and look how things have evolved.

[RC45]

Computers were HUGE just 30 years ago. I'm sure they'll develop bateries that weights a small fraction of what they weight now... and that require way less than they do now to build. It's just a matter of time... and batteries show more possibilities than internal combustion engines when it comes to development. That's just my 2 cents... :wink:

Doesn't matter - the pollution, carbon footprint and toxic chemicals involved in creating/building/marketing computeres didn't change over the same time period... the very same holds true for cars...

and be sure, the more lightweight, special or exotic the material or process or subsystme, the more technology (and thus chemical process and manufacture and finally polution) was involveed.

Do people really think building and marketing a "green" car has no pollution footprint associated with it?

[Mattk]

Why not? Better every day performance (you are not driving on a track) with an increase in full efficiency.

I don't think most sports car enthusiasts are too interested in fuel efficiency. Also, when you ignite the engine of a sports car, you want it to sound somewhat sporty. An electric motor does not sound sporty.

[silentm]

Do people really think building and marketing a "green" car has no pollution footprint associated with it?

well so does any another car from a company have, so imo this argument doesn't stick 100%. of course the car as itself may produce less emissions than the rest, but overall for the other petrol car the carbon footprint on marketing ect ect is pretty much the same, no?

[dutchmasterflex]

This isn't about saving the planet, IMO its about using less gas while getting better performance..

And you still got your exhaust note.. something the Tesla roadster will lack.

[acknot]

I love how any point made is viable as long as hybrids look bad :D

I think toyota is going to post another major waypoint with this car, and establish itself as the premier hybrid maker. I drive a Lexus 400h once in a while; it feels so much more advanced than a collegues Touareg V10 TDI. I particularly like how it runs in total silence in city streets and aorund our offices in the harbour area. Every car around here should be a hybrid.

As for GM working on the most advanced hybrid on the planet, that's great. Only I hope it has pushrods and 500hp, or they won't be able to sell very many ;)

[nthfinity]

I love how any point made is viable as long as hybrids look bad :D

I think toyota is going to post another major waypoint with this car, and establish itself as the premier hybrid maker. I drive a Lexus 400h once in a while; it feels so much more advanced than a collegues Touareg V10 TDI. I particularly like how it runs in total silence in city streets and aorund our offices in the harbour area. Every car around here should be a hybrid.

As for GM working on the most advanced hybrid on the planet, that's great. Only I hope it has pushrods and 500hp, or they won't be able to sell very many ;)

That is the thinking that scares me the most... I shutter to think that other people aren't scared by that as well

[dutchmasterflex]

In 20 years I doubt there will be any new car sold that runs entirely off a gasoline engine.

Unless it was a one off tribute too the "good 'ol days"

[acknot]

Yes, I guess you should experience a hybrid-heavy environment for yourself sometime. When you sit outside in the sun having lunch and half the cars roll by barely making a sould, you'd become pretty aware of the unnecessary noise pollution from general traffic. If they all had Ferrari V12s or BMW sixes, then ok, but they dont do they.

Anyways, please clue me up on the terrible nature of hybrids. What is the big problem?

[nthfinity]

Yes, I guess you should experience a hybrid-heavy environment for yourself sometime. When you sit outside in the sun having lunch and half the cars roll by barely making a sould, you'd become pretty aware of the unnecessary noise pollution from general traffic. If they all had Ferrari V12s or BMW sixes, then ok, but they dont do they.

Anyways, please clue me up on the terrible nature of hybrids. What is the big problem?

obviously, you've never "lived" on Woodward, Telegraph, Gratiot, S. Saginaw, LAke Shore, Jefferson, Livernois, Joy etc. etc. etc.

the sounds are spectacular rumbles of V8's.

most road cars today major contrutor of "noise pollution" is actually the tire, not the engine, blanco nino.

Obviously you haven't got a clue. Electric motors have been around for longer then the internal combustion engine. It pollutes more, is heavier, has a more massive carbon footprint, actually harms the environment quicker then CO2 does, with measurable immediate effects...

Hybrids aren't the answer, and only take away from the driving experience. I've driven a hybrid, and let me ttell you something, your kidding yourself if you think they run mu ch more then 10-15 ft. on the electric motor in the real world... the real world consists of power steering, electric fans, wiper blades, power assist brakes, etc. etc. etc.

[nthfinity]

In 20 years I doubt there will be any new car sold that runs entirely off a gasoline engine.

Unless it was a one off tribute too the "good 'ol days"

Goodbye Democracy :( it will be a sad day

[acknot]

Yes, I guess you should experience a hybrid-heavy environment for yourself sometime. When you sit outside in the sun having lunch and half the cars roll by barely making a sould, you'd become pretty aware of the unnecessary noise pollution from general traffic. If they all had Ferrari V12s or BMW sixes, then ok, but they dont do they.

Anyways, please clue me up on the terrible nature of hybrids. What is the big problem?

obviously, you've never "lived" on Woodward, Telegraph, Gratiot, S. Saginaw, LAke Shore, Jefferson, Livernois, Joy etc. etc. etc. the sounds are spectacular rumbles of V8's.

Is there something that excludes a V8 hybrid? No.

Obviously you haven't got a clue. Electric motors have been around for longer then the internal combustion engine. It pollutes more, is heavier, has a more massive carbon footprint, actually harms the environment quicker then CO2 does, with measurable immediate effects...

Yes, sure. Feel free to explain which "measurable immediate effects" those might be.

Hybrids aren't the answer, and only take away from the driving experience. I've driven a hybrid, and let me ttell you something, your kidding yourself if you think they run mu ch more then 10-15 ft. on the electric motor in the real world... the real world consists of power steering, electric fans, wiper blades, power assist brakes, etc. etc. etc.

10-15 ft? :lol: I've driven the 400h 2 or 3 kms in electric only mode.

[dutchmasterflex]

In 20 years I doubt there will be any new car sold that runs entirely off a gasoline engine.

Unless it was a one off tribute too the "good 'ol days"

Goodbye Democracy :( it will be a sad day

Yeah it will be a sad day, but that doesn't mean the combustion engine will be dead or that we will stop driving cars with them. In 20 years the performance from the new engines will blow anything from this decade away.

[graywolf624]

Yes, sure. Feel free to explain which "measurable immediate effects" those might be.

I'll take that one.
First, a hybrid requires more carbon dioxide to produce. It requires more energy in general to produce the complex motors and batteries. Building a new car often creates more carbon dioxide then a shit load of driving.

Second, the energy still has to come from somewhere, ultimately that source is going to pollute.

Finally there comes a point when the battery has to be recycled.

These 3 actually make a hybrid prius worse for the environment then an equivelent gas engine. Not to mention it consumes as much or more gasoline in the real world then many other economy cars that are not hybrids.

Its quite simply a fad. I kind of like the idea of some of the gm advanced hybrids to be honest, but your really kidding yourself if you believe we are even within a decade of a better for the environment solution.

[dutchmasterflex]

Oh, just saw this now... so I was wrong, make that 13 years :shock:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/11/toyota-looking-to-go-hybrid-only-by-2020/

[Mattk]

The idea of hydrogen powered cars is quite interesting, though, if not for the fact that water condensation has a massive greenhouse effect that is far more noticeable than carbon dioxide.

[RC45]

In 20 years the performance from the new engines will blow anything from this decade away.

Thats what they said in the 1960s' about the coming 70's.

I am sure you are aware of how that tunred out.

The idea of hydrogen powered cars is quite interesting, though, if not for the fact that water condensation has a massive greenhouse effect that is far more noticeable than carbon dioxide.

And currently, it takes a huge amount of energy to compress and store the hydrogen fo rlater "efficient" use.

The power source used to produce and store the hydrogen? Electricity... electricity generated by pollution generating power plants.

[dutchmasterflex]

In 20 years the performance from the new engines will blow anything from this decade away.

Thats what they said in the 1960s' about the coming 70's.

I am sure you are aware of how that tunred out.



Yeah but they were just a bunch of hippies back then anyway.. The 70's was the infant days of micro processors and engines. If you haven't noticed computer technology has advanced quite a lot since then.

By 2027 we'll all be flying cars anyway.. sheesh.

:roll:

[nthfinity]

Is there something that excludes a V8 hybrid? No.

There is no reason for a v8 hybrid, look at GM's proposed V8 hybrids, as well as the 400 h... improved fuel economy by an EPA (EG, NOT real world) of 3-5 mpg city, and 1-2 highway. Lets look at what this means, on top of what Gray mentioned

assuming the hybrid actually was as efficiant as the EPA 2004-2007 estimates are, and you drive 12000 city miles, at 5 additional mpg, the gas savings per year would be 120 gallons less, assuming all is well. thats less then 400$ saved per year with the price premium you have paid for your silly hybrid, not to mention the carbon footprint you have applied to this earth just to use the technology to supposedly save it LOL :lol:

Seriously C02 doesn't cause global warming, if you believe it, then you sir, are a sucker.

Also, why put a hybrid with a 427 CID v8? sounds pretty silly to slow the car down, doesn't it?


Yes, sure. Feel free to explain which "measurable immediate effects" those might be.
As already covered, the cost of the "new hybrid tech" which isn't efficiently made.... do you guys have any idea how many components in these cars are actually being shipped in from UBER pollutiong China? its cheap, and is the most polluted country on the earth. Makes you feel all warm inside, doesn't it? :roll:


10-15 ft? :lol: I've driven the 400h 2 or 3 kms in electric only mode.

I call bullshit. Did you have your heater a/c on? did you steer once? serious bullshit.

[nthfinity]

In 20 years the performance from the new engines will blow anything from this decade away.

Thats what they said in the 1960s' about the coming 70's.

I am sure you are aware of how that tunred out.



Yeah but they were just a bunch of hippies back then anyway.. The 70's was the infant days of micro processors and engines. If you haven't noticed computer technology has advanced quite a lot since then.

By 2027 we'll all be flying cars anyway.. sheesh.

:roll:

I'm just curious as to why you want to destroy the sports car. Everything that makes a sports car is killed by these silly technologies.

FYI, back in college, i worked on the most advanced electric motors out there for automotive use... all to push the technology of solar power efficiancy etc. etc..... the most advanced pieces are just so far and away a poor choice compared to internal combustion. What is your experience with it besides being a hybrid fanboy?

[dutchmasterflex]

Trust me, I am not trying to kill the sports car. There's nothing else I'd rather do than sit in my shifter kart and race on a track all day long. A simple high powered motor with wheels attached to it.

I am one that will never buy a car you do not have the option to completely turn off the electronic nanny systems such as ABS, Traction Control and Stability Control.

The ECU controlled engines are far more effieciant and has kept the internal combustion alive. Do you not agree with that?

[nthfinity]

The ECU controlled engines are far more effieciant and has kept the internal combustion alive. Do you not agree with that?

kept alive? no, its just made cars able to run at sto more completely, and was developed specifically for race cars, with the exception of Nascar :P

Are they a good thing? some ways no, but predominantly, yes.

Cars are no longer maintainable like they used to be thanks to the fancy electronics. Nothing is easy, nothing is cheap like it used to be (compared vs. inflation even)

Are the cars/engines more reliable, yes. But that isn't one single attribute to technology, but a plethora of technologies combining.... new production meathods, new materials, higher quality materials, better castings, and forgings, and billit pieces, more regidity, better thermodynamics...

basically, the place of automotive technology today is highly efficiant, and very predictable. Eventually there wont be any power left to get.. cars like Joe's GT TT, and the new secret LPE car are good examples of what is in store for auto enthusiasts.

A car is a combination of experiences, excentuated by the sports car. A hybrid takes away from the experience of driving. That isn't something good

[RC45]

Toyota is more interested in making money than protecting the environment, in case you guys hadnt already figured that one out. the demand for hybrids is going to continue to rise with gas prices to the point where people wont be able to afford not driving a hybrid.

Until the price of a new hybrid is lower than a used gasoline engine - nonsense.

If you cannot afford $4/gallon gas, youcannot afford a $50,000 new car.

The extra cost on the hybrid car and it's maintenance FAR out weighs any extra gas cost of a$10,000 used car.

Period.


this will definitely happen within our lifetimes. hybrid technology is a way to for the consumer to save money in the long run.

There is no long term savings in buying a hybrid car - especially if youare already on a tight budget.


by making their flagship sports car a hybrid they set the standard for the technology and convince the consumer that they do hybrids the best. i think we will also see an increase in diesels in this country simply because of gas prices.

Not while diesel costs more than regular gas at the pump.


there are definitely some big problems with the batteries in terms of pollution that need to be addressed and hybrids arent really the long term answer but rather a step in the gradual process of weaning ourselves off of gasoline.

Why does the world need to be weened off of gasoline?

Without it rhere woul dhave been no Chemical Age.

Think plastics - think hydrocarbons.

Think fertilizer (to grow your biodiesel) think hydrocarbons.

Think modern medicine, think hydrocarbons.

Why should the world go back to the stone age for some tree hugging twits?

Think of the THIRD and FOURTH worlds that have not yet reached their peak - why shoul dthey be fucked just because some do-gooder westerners feel guilt and angst?


I dont really understand the reactions of some people here to this car. this is not the end of sports cars... far from it.

Its just more global warming hype is all.

[nthfinity]

Battery technology is making great strides and will be a completely different game in the next decade.

Gasoline engine only turns on once you go towards 30mph which is just about every US Town's speed limit.

where are you getting your information from? I get mine from the powertrain engineers at GM, who are currently making the most advanced hybrid that will be available on the market.

Your kidding right? :lol:

LOL

obviously not

[acknot]

So basically, you guys have devcided not to like hybrids and your arguements are that hybrids pollute more , but wait, all this emissions technology and advanced solutions to save fuel is nonsence because CO2 does'nt cause global warming anyways. (Lol, good luck with that) And even if it was'nt, all cars should have big V8s and make lots of noise, because as you are offended that we all might not agree, the engine sound made by V8 engined cars is in fact glorious music so it does not matter if all your neighbours hate your exceedingly loud Corvette. It's not a problem, its a feature.

I won't even try to argue with you on this. Though I have to hand it to you, the statement that once non-hybrid cars are gone, there can be no more democracy did make me laugh out loud. I guess one can only hope the free democratic west will not succomb to this onslaught of evil tehnology :lol:

Then you go on to regurgitate a study conducted by a marketing research company which conclures that thoes newfgangeled hydrid thingys are in fact gross polluters. Then, after lambasting the gross pollution created by Toyotas Nicel-Cadmium batteries, these "scientists" mention in the final notes that although the findings of this study are heavily influenced by their assumption that the Prius' NiCad batteries are unrecyclable, Toyota does in fact claim that these batteries have been sucessfully recycled since 1998. It's pretty easy to get the feeling that one of the parties in this debate ordered the study, and I suppose it can't be Toyota. (cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/DUST%20PDF%20VERSION.pdf)

That's funny, NiCad is nothing new?
Nickel-cadmium batteries are virtually 100% recyclable once they have been collected. Today, there are 9 major NiCd battery recycling plants located in the United States, Europe and Japan capable of recycling approximately 20,000 mt of industrial and consumer NiCd batteries and their manufacturing scraps. There is more than adequate capacity to recycle all NiCd batteries presently being collected.

The facts of the matter are that the two leading hybrid manufacturers happen to be the two highest valued car companies on the planet - Toyota and Honda. And even though Ford and GM have tried to debunk hybrids for a long time now, they licensed Toyotas hybrid tehcnology a long time ago. However, they can't actually afford to produce such cars, or develop a competitive technology.

One of the reasons for GM going in a different direction than Toyota now is that GM cant afford to use the ultra sophisticated Toyota hybrid hardware and software designs, so they are unable to copete with the japaneze hybrids. Therefore, they use a 65KW Lithium Ion battery in stead, and start driving running off the battery, when it's exhausted just switch to fuel. Pretty basic, once you'de done the best-case 40 miles, you have a heavier standard car.

Because GM is so far behind the curve with development of hybrids, they are getting killed selling them because they sell them way below their cost. With the price of the Prius jacked up with options and all the licensing deals Toyota is making a hefty profit from their hybrid technology even if the base model is sold at or below cost.

So yes, hybrids are here to stay, and yes nthfinity, today I specifically turned on the A/C, turned up the stereo a bit louder than usual and feeling a bit frisky, I even used the wipers a couple of times just t otempt fate. I even turned the steeringwheel form time to time,. And guess what, I still made the entire 3 km drive trough town on battery. Totally silent apart from the stereo blasting and wipers flapping :lol:

[graywolf624]

Because GM is so far behind the curve with development of hybrids, they are getting killed selling them because they sell them way below their cost. With the price of the Prius jacked up with options and all the licensing deals Toyota is making a hefty profit from their hybrid technology even if the base model is sold at or below cost.
You apparently havent gone to the same car shows as me. The last time I checked GM is the only major car company to have already sold a electric car for several years. Theyve also had several hybrid concept cars, including one most recently which was considered by most auto magazines as the biggest step forward in the technology so far. But yeah.. They got nothing :roll:



Toyota does in fact claim that these batteries have been sucessfully recycled since 1998.
There was a nice video a few years ago about recycling done by Penn and Teller. They gist of it is, often times the process of recycling causes more polution then it saves through energy usage. The point of all this being.. The Prius only gets a small number of mpg greater then any other car. It will require a more intense recycling and production program. You are truly underestimating the energy and pollution costs of production.

[RC45]

So basically, you guys have devcided not to like hybrids and your arguements are that hybrids pollute more , but wait, all this emissions technology and advanced solutions to save fuel is nonsence because CO2 does'nt cause global warming anyways. (Lol, good luck with that) And even if it was'nt, all cars should have big V8s and make lots of noise, because as you are offended that we all might not agree, the engine sound made by V8 engined cars is in fact glorious music so it does not matter if all your neighbours hate your exceedingly loud Corvette. It's not a problem, its a feature.

I won't even try to argue with you on this. Though I have to hand it to you, the statement that once non-hybrid cars are gone, there can be no more democracy did make me laugh out loud. I guess one can only hope the free democratic west will not succomb to this onslaught of evil tehnology :lol:

Then you go on to regurgitate a study conducted by a marketing research company which conclures that thoes newfgangeled hydrid thingys are in fact gross polluters. Then, after lambasting the gross pollution created by Toyotas Nicel-Cadmium batteries, these "scientists" mention in the final notes that although the findings of this study are heavily influenced by their assumption that the Prius' NiCad batteries are unrecyclable, Toyota does in fact claim that these batteries have been sucessfully recycled since 1998. It's pretty easy to get the feeling that one of the parties in this debate ordered the study, and I suppose it can't be Toyota. (cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/DUST%20PDF%20VERSION.pdf)

That's funny, NiCad is nothing new?
Nickel-cadmium batteries are virtually 100% recyclable once they have been collected. Today, there are 9 major NiCd battery recycling plants located in the United States, Europe and Japan capable of recycling approximately 20,000 mt of industrial and consumer NiCd batteries and their manufacturing scraps. There is more than adequate capacity to recycle all NiCd batteries presently being collected.

The facts of the matter are that the two leading hybrid manufacturers happen to be the two highest valued car companies on the planet - Toyota and Honda. And even though Ford and GM have tried to debunk hybrids for a long time now, they licensed Toyotas hybrid tehcnology a long time ago. However, they can't actually afford to produce such cars, or develop a competitive technology.

One of the reasons for GM going in a different direction than Toyota now is that GM cant afford to use the ultra sophisticated Toyota hybrid hardware and software designs, so they are unable to copete with the japaneze hybrids. Therefore, they use a 65KW Lithium Ion battery in stead, and start driving running off the battery, when it's exhausted just switch to fuel. Pretty basic, once you'de done the best-case 40 miles, you have a heavier standard car.

Because GM is so far behind the curve with development of hybrids, they are getting killed selling them because they sell them way below their cost. With the price of the Prius jacked up with options and all the licensing deals Toyota is making a hefty profit from their hybrid technology even if the base model is sold at or below cost.

So yes, hybrids are here to stay, and yes nthfinity, today I specifically turned on the A/C, turned up the stereo a bit louder than usual and feeling a bit frisky, I even used the wipers a couple of times just t otempt fate. I even turned the steeringwheel form time to time,. And guess what, I still made the entire 3 km drive trough town on battery. Totally silent apart from the stereo blasting and wipers flapping :lol:

Where do propose to get all the platics and polymers for your hybrids?

All you treehuggers want to stop oil production... are you planning on making your hybrids out of wood?

[nthfinity]

acknot wrote:

LOL, nice try, but how much of the world does non-stop even for 3 km stop and go traffic? LOL

Why is it the end of democracy?

when YOU, and your type legislate that I cannot buy the car I want.

Legislation is the bane of success, and market enterprise. Your type are already calling the companies that employ the world evil, you are already trying do destroy the success they have created, where the market has determined thier success... not some legislator.

You fail to even consider the price and cost of gas vs. cost of hybrid + gas savingsj (real, and estimated)

It still doesn't make sence if you are there to pollute less even.

oh, and about the GW debate

http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47198&start=0

Maybe you'll learn something. Consensus just isn't science, particularly when so many "Most respected in the field" Scientists don't agree with it.

[acknot]

No, I have'nt had time to go to car shows. GM probebly churns out a steady stream of concepts. A noble effort I suppose. Meantime, others are delievering a stedy stream of cars to their customers.

I gather you don't like it, but hybrids are probably here to stay. Fact is, as hybrid sales are growing rapidly, competitors have little choice but to join the technology race between Toyota/licensees and the rest. Hybrids are already establishing themselves as the fuel-saving technology of choice, and the longer those left by the wayside wait, the further behind technology leader Toyota they will end up. Once the market demonstrator Prius turned profitable, hybrids have rapidly been spreading into new niches - and are now spreading into sports/recreational vehicles like the Supra and exotics like Tesla.

Seems to me you are completely missing the significance of whats going on. You blame various culprits like "the government" and what you so endearingly term "envirofascists" (oh, the irony :lol:) but this development is in fact all consumer-driven. Hybrids sell, and new models appear just as soon as they become economically viable. Stand aside, here come the performance hybrids :D

Where do I plan to get the plastics and polymers? Where we get them today, are you saying we're running out of oil?

As for the CO2 debate, I know you all are too stubborn to change your minds even in the face of overwhelming scientific consensus. unlike you guys, I cant be bothered to spend all day in here arguing. But I bet in fifty years from now, the jabba tag-team will be grumpy old besserwissers still arguing against global warming and tinkering with your carb-fed alcohol-burning pushrod miracles :lol:

Still, how can a Texan who claims to have visited Houston remain indifferent to the gross air polution there? It's effing horrendous!

[dutchmasterflex]

Because GM is so far behind the curve with development of hybrids, they are getting killed selling them because they sell them way below their cost. With the price of the Prius jacked up with options and all the licensing deals Toyota is making a hefty profit from their hybrid technology even if the base model is sold at or below cost.
You apparently havent gone to the same car shows as me. The last time I checked GM is the only major car company to have already sold a electric car for several years. Theyve also had several hybrid concept cars, including one most recently which was considered by most auto magazines as the biggest step forward in the technology so far. But yeah.. They got nothing :roll:



But do they still sell electric cars? Does anyone? Many companies have sold their own electrics ie. Honda, Toyota - and they have all been discontinued for "unknown reasons". They is a market for them - the millions of people who only use their car for their 30-50 mile commutes to work.

If you ever watched the movie 'Who Killed the Electric Car,' you get an idea of what is the most likely reason why manufactures stop selling these cars and even bougtht their fleet of electric cars back from willing owners, just to destroy them.

[RC45]

Where do I plan to get the plastics and polymers? Where we get them today, are you saying we're running out of oil?

Then exactly how is switching to "hybrids" going to "save the environment"?

The huge carbon footprint (to put it in Gore-terms) of building a hybrid is the same as that of buildin a conventional car. So why go hybrid at all?

Hybrids are selling because they were falsely marketed as "world environment savers" - not because they are actually any better, cheaper or more "efficient" than other vehicles.

[dutchmasterflex]

Never said it was going to save the environment, that's just something the rich hollywood do gooders think to make them feel even better about themselves ;)

It just so happens the public is eating it up a long with Al Gores schpeal and Toyota is simply taking advantage of the growing martket. It's just business :P

It IS going to give you more gas mileage in city driving environments though.

[RC45]

It IS going to give you more gas mileage in city driving environments though.

But its not going to cost you less.

If I want to spend less over a 2 year period - I would buy a $4000 used car and spend little on gasoline.

Buying a $40,000 entry level hybrid to get 3mpg better than an old Civic will cost me significantly more.

[dutchmasterflex]

Never said that it was cheaper, I actually have mentioned before that Hybrid's now a days are a "luxury". Which is why hybrid models cost more and only rich yuppie "do-gooders" buy them ;)

It's silly yes, but back on topic, I think in a sports car application, it can work. Extra performance with out the cost of extra fuel consumption, in city driving scenarios.

Just like how you are proud of your Z06 that it can be taken to the track, and yet still be easily drivable around town and even getting close to 30mph (only on the highway), a Hybrid sports car will do the same except in more realistic every day city driving.

[dutchmasterflex]

But still, you need to put over 100,000 miles before you hit the "break even" point in purchasing a Hybrid vs. a brand new non-hybrid 4 cylinder eco car.

It's not for saving money, it's for making less trips to the gas station in a metropolitan area.

[pagani]

Toyota lied about thier mpg figures for the prius.
Anyway give me a powerfull diesel engine anyday over some stupid hybrid engine.
:D 8)

[nthfinity]

As for the CO2 debate, I know you all are too stubborn to change your minds even in the face of overwhelming scientific consensus. unlike you guys, I cant be bothered to spend all day in here arguing. But I bet in fifty years from now, the jabba tag-team will be grumpy old besserwissers still arguing against global warming and tinkering with your carb-fed alcohol-burning pushrod miracles :lol:


Proving your ignroamous status yet again.

CO2 isn't causing smog either, but the particulates which I and the other conservationists here have said time and time again... that we have said should have the time, money, and effort thrown at them to stave the issue of True, Real, and NOW effects on the environment, and it's inhabitants...

why are you conserned over C02 which is actually proven to be the result of global warming, not the opposite.

Why is mars warming at a similar rate to earth? they have no heavy industry (any) why are the southern ice caps growing? why are we seeing cold winters (coldest on record for how long?) why haven't the oceans risen? The earth has been 6 C warmer 1000 years ago, long before HUman industry, there has been more C02 in the atomosphere many times in earths past....

i mean... come on, how far can you see past your own ignorance? I know, it must be absolute bliss to feel guilty of something, or maybe you feel good that you are just "doing your part"

puuuuuuhleeeease

[nthfinity]

the prius gets 60mpg city and 50 highway. while these figure have been contested and some have said that it is more like in the high 40's, its a lot more than 3mpg better than a standard economy car. people who buy priuses dont want to buy a $4000 beater they want a nice new car.

once the initial investment is made, they are spending a lot less on gas than the average person and yearly gas bill will be significantly lower than most.

Jetta TDI is cheaper, and gets near 60 mpg (and will only drop off 3-5% with EPA 2008 revised ratings, where ALL hybrids are falling 30-35% off 2007 EPA ratings)

, and is brand new, and more luxurious, better handler, faster, more reliable, longer lasting, and less of a carbon footprint

[acknot]

Perhaps you are right in claiming that a hybrid full-size truck only betters its mileage by 3-5 mpg, but given the thirst of these vehicles that must be a decent percentage. Luckily for GM, their trucks are heavy enough to support down-scaled commercial vehicle (i.e. bus) technology. But it's still a good result for GM I guess, if they can survive by producing even heavier trucks and maintain their fat profit margins.

I agree on pefering diesel engines, if someone could provide a hybrid package like an A6 quattro avant with the new Audi 3.0 TDI engine adding another 100 or 150hp electric power on top, that would be nice. Very nice!

[nthfinity]

amazing how a breaking car news topic could turn into another global warming debunking topic.

there is really no point in debating it here since people have made up their minds long ago but i feel like i have to retort in some manner. so here

this is all the debating i will do.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e9/Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr-2.png

hahahahahha

thats too funny, as that one was one of the most easily rebutted LMAO

(actually, gore told you the data shows something that it doesn't show, and didn't explain it, as its too "highly complicated" )

nice job blanco nino, but you've already been had

[nthfinity]

i dont get my science from al gore. i knew about this shit long before that movie came out. like i said i wont debate this further ... there is no point.

nice job with the name calling btw.


for those of you who no se habla espanol.... translated = white child

it appears that you dont get science... not just "don't get my science from gore"

[graywolf624]

and the longer those left by the wayside wait, the further behind technology leader Toyota they will end up.
Or maybe, they realize the current solution is crap and sooner or later people will figure it out. Then they will enter the market with something better. Prius sales are starting to fall, they now actually have rebates on the things.

face of overwhelming scientific consensus.
No such concensus exists. Id suggest you do some reading, several thousand scientists have come out against man made gw.

If you ever watched the movie 'Who Killed the Electric Car,' you get an idea of what is the most likely reason why manufactures stop selling these cars and even bougtht their fleet of electric cars back from willing owners, just to destroy them.
It was complete crap.. but ok. The reason it wasnt done is because they cost too much to make for the overal market. The consumers are the ones who killed the electric car.

The huge carbon footprint (to put it in Gore-terms) of building a hybrid is the same as that of buildin a conventional car
Actually every study done shows the footprint of building a hybrid to be greater then a conventional car.

while these figure have been contested and some have said that it is more like in the high 40's, its a lot more than 3mpg better than a standard economy car
Most standard economy cars also dont have tires the size of a bicycle. Try comparing the fuel economy of the same car hybrid versus not. Youll see the difference is around 5 mpg in the real world. No one has ever argued they are the financial choice.

[nthfinity]

Toyota Yaris
4 cyl, 1.5 L, Manual(5), Regular: 34 city 40 highway

Toyota Prius 60 city 51 highway

bigger difference than 5mpg. not going to make you a millionaire but will save you SOME money.

65% x 51 = 33.15 - 35.7 mpg after 2008 EPA estimates come out.

my 1988 Saab 9000 turbo had 36 mpg @ 85mph, 39 @ 70... sorry, but you aren't getting it mate.

The EPA screwed up, those estimates ARENT anywhere near accurate

EDIT:

5-Yr. Ownership Cost

$34,908 - prius

$30,177 - yaris

Original MSRP

$22,175 - prius

$12,025 - yaris

with gas today at $3.39/gallon here

the yaris, you can buy an additional 2994 gallons of gas--- nearly 120,000 miles worth of fuel

assuming the 51 mpg estimate was accurate (which it isnt)

you would have to drive the prius an additional 110,000 miles to even equal the fuel savings.. and the Prius battery wont last that long

[graywolf624]

bigger difference than 5mpg. not going to make you a millionaire but will save you SOME money.
The prius doesnt get 60 mpg. Furthermore the Yaris isnt the same car. In fact its dynamically superior to the prius. Faster, handles better, etc. Apples to apples is hybrid civic versus base civic or hybrid camry versus base.

[acknot]

Why are you comparing Prius and Yaris though? Yaris is considerably smaller car than a Prius, as the Prius was designed using a Camry-based bodyshell. Would you compare a Yaris and a Camry too?

In addition the Prius has a high tech/low weight design language that puts it above Yaris in general class and fit and finish. For instance, it betters most cars in its class with a 5-star Euro NCAP rating.

And do all other cars match their EPA rated mileage? Seems to me the EPA revised their ratings because most cars do not.

[graywolf624]

In addition the Prius has a high tech/low weight design language that puts it above Yaris in general class and fit and finish. For instance, it betters most cars in its class with a 5-star Euro NCAP rating.

I hate to tell you, but the prius isnt leaps and bounds above the yaris in fit and finish. Furthmore as I said.. Its a useless car from a dynamic standpoint. It can;t handle. It cant accelerate.. It cant pass. Its horrible.

The very point was. If you compare the hybrid camry to the base camry or the hybrid civic to the basic civic the difference in bhp is minor.

And do all other cars match their EPA rated mileage? Seems to me the EPA revised their ratings because most cars do not.
The problem is, the prius had one of the largest drops in percentage and value.

[acknot]

Given taht the Yaris is very good for a cheap supermini, I agree that Prius isn't a radical step up in fit and finish though it is noticably better.

As for the mileage, wether the Prius lost more or less than other cars is one thing - the point being driven across here is that Toyota was the only manufacturer overrating the milaegae of its products - when in fact pretty much all manufacturers do.

Does not change the fact that Prius consistenly beats the latest diesel-powered cars in its class in fuel consumption; making it the most energy efficient vehicle available right now. And deomstrating that synergy drive is the best technology right now. Obviously, we have just begun to open the envelope on what may be attainable once serious contenders start to appear.

I don't get the dogmatic opinions expressed here. Why would someone NOT want a hybrid? Compare the Lexus RX330 and 400h - the 400h is faster, gets better mileage, handles much of my innercity driving on battery alone (making it incredibly refined and dead silent, as well as taking it's exhaust elsewhere) drives well and matches most other large familycarriers for class and comfort. So it cost slightly more, I think it's worth it.

[RC45]

I don't get the dogmatic opinions expressed here.

This isn't "Hippies R US" - it is a forum based on performance car enthusiasts first... paying more for a one SUV over another because it uses "less gas" is but of pooftah logic at best.

More importantly though, is what the used car line ups will look like in 10 years. Right now a 1996 econo 4 cylinder is a viable cheap alterantive for people not endowed with depe pockets.

The cars are cheap to buy, cheap to insure, cheap to maintain and cheap to run.

A 100,000 mile old hybrid will be none of those things.. further contributing to the "overall cost' ont he environment.

[acknot]

Well, I guess since this is a thread on the proposed hybrid Supra I guess the discussion is relevant wether you like perfomance cars or not. Still, it's pretty symptomatic that you imply that only hippies could enjoy a car if it happens to have a hybrid component to its drivetrain.

And why does it matter whether a car sold today is a good or bad buy in ten years time? I can think of plenty of wonderful cars that will probably be crap to own in ten years time - what makes you think maintaining hybrid powertrains will not be a booming business in the years to come? From my navy days I know that many failed large capacity nicad packs can be repaired by replacing weak cells and subsequently doing a few heavy charge/deep discharge cycles - does'nt have to be a factory fresh battery pack at $2500 (massive 400h pack) when your 100.000 mile/ 8 year warranty runs out.

I don't think it is a good thing that car enthusiasts view new solutions or even high technology in general as a threat. Surely the point must be to make a good car, whatever your taste might be -while complying with the need to start getting serious about not ruining the environment we live in? (Otherwise we as enthusiasts are screwed.)

[graywolf624]

Why would someone NOT want a hybrid? Compare the Lexus RX330 and 400h - the 400h is faster, gets better mileage, handles much of my innercity driving on battery alone (making it incredibly refined and dead silent, as well as taking it's exhaust elsewhere) drives well and matches most other large familycarriers for class and comfort. So it cost slightly more, I think it's worth it.
If it costs you more to purchase in excess cost then you save on better mileage, what have you gained? If it is worse or equal for the environment during your ownership period what has the environment gain? Doesn't that mean you've essentially created a marketing tool rather then a real gain?

[nthfinity]

Well, I guess since this is a thread on the proposed hybrid Supra I guess the discussion is relevant wether you like perfomance cars or not. Still, it's pretty symptomatic that you imply that only hippies could enjoy a car if it happens to have a hybrid component to its drivetrain.

And why does it matter whether a car sold today is a good or bad buy in ten years time? I can think of plenty of wonderful cars that will probably be crap to own in ten years time - what makes you think maintaining hybrid powertrains will not be a booming business in the years to come? From my navy days I know that many failed large capacity nicad packs can be repaired by replacing weak cells and subsequently doing a few heavy charge/deep discharge cycles - does'nt have to be a factory fresh battery pack at $2500 (massive 400h pack) when your 100.000 mile/ 8 year warranty runs out.

I don't think it is a good thing that car enthusiasts view new solutions or even high technology in general as a threat. Surely the point must be to make a good car, whatever your taste might be -while complying with the need to start getting serious about not ruining the environment we live in? (Otherwise we as enthusiasts are screwed.)

review that GW thread i linked to, because we in fact ARENT screwed :)

I had a fair amount more written, but was lost due to some internets bafoonery on my part.

We are screwed the second you take away my choice to drive what i want, and how i want.

[acknot]

Well then you have been screwed a long time ago, surely you are required to follow speed limits and pass emissions tests like everyone else. You are at lest required to breathe the same air as anyone else.

[graywolf624]

Acknot, Clean air is different from CO2. Its a completely different set of criteria. In fact, the amount of contribution to pollution in the air from a car is often completely unrelated to its mpg. The design of the emission system effects nitrogen and sulfur much more then the fuel usage. In fact, some of these global warming solutions worsen our air (diesels come to mind). You'll find that many conservationalist minded individuals are more concerned about pollution then co2.

[dutchmasterflex]

Just saw in the my local news paper that GM revealed their 150MPG hybrid concept.. only thing is, they do not have the batteries, yet.