Holden coming to North America

[vexor]

well, sort of.... under the name Pontiac G8

Ever since the GM Australia launched its new Holden VE Commodore (pictured), rumors began circulating that GM might export the rear-wheel-drive sedan to America as a Pontiac. Some reports suggested the car would be sold as the next Grand Prix, while others indicated it would be renamed G8.

Today, GM confirmed it will bring the Commodore to America as the Pontiac G8. "We are seriously planning to import a lot of Commodore SS sedans as Pontiac G8s," product development chief Bob Lutz told Australia's Drive today at the Detroit auto show, adding that the company could sell 50,000 G8s per year. "We are yet to officially announce it," he said.

The Commodore and G8 ride on GM's new Zeta rear-wheel-drive platform, which underpins the 2009 Camaro and the next-generation Impala, in addition to several other planned vehicles.
- LeftLaneNews.com

[dm_h_2007]

Nice! So basically it will be new versions of the GTO under a different name? But will they still be RWD and have a Vette engine?

[Mattk]

Nice! So basically it will be new versions of the GTO under a different name? But will they still be RWD and have a Vette engine?

No, the Monaro has been discontinued for the second time. This is the VE Commodore, which is a new family car powered by a banal V6. The SS has a V8, though, and is more sports orientated, although not exactly a sports car per se. It has optional special leather seats and all sorts of luxury stuff. It's received rave reviews in Australia.

This is good news for the industry, especially since rising fuel prices have made large family cars unpopular amongst buyers. Good to see Holden exporting to America.

[graywolf624]

No, the Monaro has been discontinued for the second time. This is the VE Commodore, which is a new family car powered by a banal V6. The SS has a V8, though, and is more sports orientated, although not exactly a sports car per se. It has optional special leather seats and all sorts of luxury stuff. It's received rave reviews in Australia.

Yes and the G8 is a small family car.

The rumours out of gm are a move to a line of rwd cars. The GTO will be back too..

[TopGearNL]

Nice idea!

But seeing how the GTO turned out who knows whats gonna happen :bah:

[HeilSvenska]

The real question is, will they change enough panels to make it a Pontiac? Or will it be just rebadged rebumpered Holden?

[graywolf624]

AS bad as you all say the GTO turned out, they only ever planned a max of 20000 a year. They missed their target considerablly, but I wouldnt call it a complete flop. The screwed the start by telling everyone the 2005 would be better then the 2004 (and bland styling), but they sold 11000 this year out of something like 13000 produced. That isn't a horrible showing.

[HeilSvenska]

Nor did people bad mouth it, other than the fact that it wasn't a GTO...

It'll get lots of kudos points for being RWD. It'll handle a lot better than its rivals and will have more power than Nissan Maxima, Toyota Abalone, etc...

[Mattk]

Yes and the G8 is a small family car.

For us, the Commodore is a large car. :P Only in America would it be considered small.

[graywolf624]

actually the GTO was a huge sales flop. the majority of GTOs sold were sold below invoice....you coudn't get them sold for anything. I was offered a NEW GTO last year for $4000 *UNDER* invoice.
For a domestic car thats about normal. Only the 2004's were rediculous in that respect.. 32000 dollar cars going for 20000. What didnt they expect when they told people the car would have 80 more hp in the following year.

[TopGearNL]

Yes and the G8 is a small family car.

For us, the Commodore is a large car. :P Only in America would it be considered small.

The Commodore is indeed a large car! But a very nice one!

How big is that Aussie Ford compard to it?

[dm_h_2007]

actually the GTO was a huge sales flop. the majority of GTOs sold were sold below invoice....you coudn't get them sold for anything. I was offered a NEW GTO last year for $4000 *UNDER* invoice.
For a domestic car thats about normal. Only the 2004's were rediculous in that respect.. 32000 dollar cars going for 20000. What didnt they expect when they told people the car would have 80 more hp in the following year.

Actually the 5.7L has 350HP and the 6.0 has 400, so it’s a difference of 50HP. And like Top Gear pointed out the 5.7 is actually the better of the two cars because it has stiffer suspension and does not have the fuel tank right over the rear axel.

The 5.7 GTO is so cool. It may not have sold well but its going to be one of those cars people will try to get used for years to come. Especially people that like to tune cars, we all know how you can tweak the hell out of those Vette engines. I my self might consider getting a used 2004 GTO.

[graywolf624]

ummm.. The 6.0 is a vette engine as well. I was ball parking the hp.. The point is no one is going to buy the lower hp car this year for the same price as the new one.

As for suspension and gas tank.. Last I checked top gear didnt test the GTO. They tested the same body but just like the have slighlty different design cues the suspension is designed slightly differently for states to UK. In other words it may or may not hold true here.

[dm_h_2007]

ummm.. The 6.0 is a vette engine as well. I was ball parking the hp.. The point is no one is going to buy the lower hp car this year for the same price as the new one.

As for suspension and gas tank.. Last I checked top gear didnt test the GTO. They tested the same body but just like the have slighlty different design cues the suspension is designed slightly differently for states to UK. In other words it may or may not hold true here.

Well then you missed some episodes. They tested both the 5.7 and the 6.0 but not in the same episode. Clarkson flat out said they both were brilliant but the 5.7 was better. He said the 6.0's back end gets too light a whippy when you get low on gas and it fells a lot softer and more wobbly than the 5.7. But he said both were fantastic and you can drift in them like no other. I think one of his closing quotes about the GTO was something to the effect of “if anyone is buying any car other than this one in this price range they are either stupid or boring!”.

[graywolf624]

^^^They don't sell the GTO in the UK man.. Clarkson has not tested it. They sell the Monoro. Same car with some visual changes and suspension changes. I haven't missed any episodes, I have everyone for the last 7+ years. Hell they have a 500 hp version of the Monoro now according to top gear magazine.. There is no such gto.

Man its even worse then that I see.. They dont sell a 5.7 l gto in the US, haven't since 2005. They still sell Manaros with ls1s. IT is a great engine, I have one afterall, but whether the 5.7 l 2003 cars can compete with the 6.0 2004 cars that cost the same exact price in the US.. is not proved by a british magazine with different engine/suspension combinations.

[Mattk]

How big is that Aussie Ford compard to it?

The Ford Falcon is around the same size. The new Commodore is said to be a better car to drive than the Falcon. Otherwise, there are almost identical numbers of each car sold every year, they have similar levels of equipment, similar performance. There's really not much reason why you'd pick one over the other, but Australians tend to choose because of sentimental reasons. I like Falcons. :)

I'm pretty sure this G8 will sell better than the GTO. It enters a market where there is a place for such a car.

[wasaabi92]

I'm slightly biased. I really don't even want GM to bother with the G8 (possibly the lamest name EVER given to a muscle car), because nobody cared when they brought up the Monaro/GTO to the States. Because I'm pretty sure about 3 were sold in the past 3 years, and 2 were sold with automatics. Oddly enough the only manual sold came with the dumbed down "five-seven". Go figure. :lol:

Really though... GM is late to the game again! Their stopgap was, what? A GXP Grand Prix and an Impala ... SS. Yeah.

What I'd LOVE to see is the Ford Falcon brought up from down under with both the Boss 302 and the Turbo Six. Those cars are simply too cool.

I dunno if y'all caught on but I'd much rather have Ford succeed (even though its in the same predicament at GM) and watch GM crash and burn. Again.

[dm_h_2007]

^^^They don't sell the GTO in the UK man.. Clarkson has not tested it. They sell the Monoro. Same car with some visual changes and suspension changes. I haven't missed any episodes, I have everyone for the last 7+ years. Hell they have a 500 hp version of the Monoro now according to top gear magazine.. There is no such gto.

Man its even worse then that I see.. They dont sell a 5.7 l gto in the US, haven't since 2005. They still sell Manaros with ls1s. IT is a great engine, I have one afterall, but whether the 5.7 l 2003 cars can compete with the 6.0 2004 cars that cost the same exact price in the US.. is not proved by a british magazine with different engine/suspension combinations.

Yes of course he testeted the "Monoro" its the very same car. I also have all top Gear on my computer. Don't even try to argue with me on Top Gear, I have seen them all!!

Here is the first review of the 5.7 - YouTube

They tested the 6.0 "Vauxhall Monaro" - YouTube

And they even did a 3rd test (James May) in Series 5, Episode 1. - http://youtube.com/watch?v=bCc_ak4KsOM

You clearly dont konw what you are talking about because first you said there was an 80HP difference between the 5.7 and 6.0 and now you are trying to claim he has never tested the car on Top Gear!

And I know they stopped selling the 5.7 when the 6.0 came out. That is why I said people are going to be looking for used 5.7's for a long time because it was actually the better car of the two!!!

Edit: Oh and Hammond tests it even a 4th time in series 6, episode 11 which includes a Stig lap!! (it did the same time as the WRX STi) The GTO in its various forms has been tested at least 4 times on Top Gear!! - http://youtube.com/watch?v=G99DE4VMl4k

And here are the Clarkson quotes about the 6.0 from his Times Column -

"Sadly, all is not sweetness and light, because the Monaro is sold in America as a Pontiac GTO and the new version was designed specifically for Uncle Sam. That means it’s all gone a bit soft. And for some extraordinary reason they’ve moved the 60-litre fuel tank to a point directly above the rear axle. This means the car’s handling will change depending on how much fuel you have on board, and also that the boot is nowhere near as big as it should be."

"It all sounds great but there’s one problem. You can still buy the original, harder, 5.7 litre car. Yes, this only offers up 349bhp compared with the 6 litre’s 398bhp. But you’re pressed to spot that difference on the road.

And here’s the clincher. The 5.7 is only £29,000. Put simply, there is no better bargain on the market today. "

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1686285_2,00.html

[TopGearNL]

How big is that Aussie Ford compard to it?

The Ford Falcon is around the same size. The new Commodore is said to be a better car to drive than the Falcon. Otherwise, there are almost identical numbers of each car sold every year, they have similar levels of equipment, similar performance. There's really not much reason why you'd pick one over the other, but Australians tend to choose because of sentimental reasons. I like Falcons. :)

I'm pretty sure this G8 will sell better than the GTO. It enters a market where there is a place for such a car.

Oh allright! :D

Im a big Aussie car fan mate (with an australian accent) :wink:

[graywolf624]

Yes of course he testeted the "Monoro" its the very same car. I also have all top Gear on my computer. Don't even try to argue with me on Top Gear, I have seen them all!!

And thats the point.. It isn't quite the same car... For the very same reason you can still buy the 5.7 in the UK.. or a 500 hp version of the same car (There is no gto vxr equivelent). They have different option ranges and suspension setups (spring rates and shock rebound) for different countries. Why? Because each country has different tastes. They also have different color pallets and body setups.
So no.. Top gear has not tested the 5.7l gto or the 6l gto.. In fact.. Based on what I see on the gto forums (I have a name and I use to read alot), most people trade up for the 6.0.. There is no one talking about superiority of the old versus the new. You stand alone based on a car that isn't even sold in the same configuration or body. GM does that with all their cars. In fact all auto makers do.

He has never tested the car.. Yet again.. There are differences between the two for tastes of each customer.

[dm_h_2007]

Yes of course he testeted the "Monoro" its the very same car. I also have all top Gear on my computer. Don't even try to argue with me on Top Gear, I have seen them all!!

And thats the point.. It isn't quite the same car... For the very same reason you can still buy the 5.7 in the UK.. or a 500 hp version of the same car (There is no gto vxr equivelent). They have different option ranges and suspension setups (spring rates and shock rebound) for different countries. Why? Because each country has different tastes. They also have different color pallets and body setups.
So no.. Top gear has not tested the 5.7l gto or the 6l gto.. In fact.. Based on what I see on the gto forums (I have a name and I use to read alot), most people trade up for the 6.0.. There is no one talking about superiority of the old versus the new. You stand alone based on a car that isn't even sold in the same configuration or body. GM does that with all their cars. In fact all auto makers do.

He has never tested the car.. Yet again.. There are differences between the two for tastes of each customer.

Oh come on give me a break. Just admit you were very wrong and give it up. You are just grasping at straws, the fact is it is the very same car and the Top Gear cast loves both cars but in general likes the 5.7 better than the 6.0. Period!

[graywolf624]

Oh come on. Give me a break. Just admit you were very wrong and give it up.
How am I wrong? Ive been telling you for 2 pages it isn't the same car. Its the same chasis and basic design, but they change spring rates, tires, engines, etc to meet a countries tastes. You cant use top gear as an arguement.

[nthfinity]

Yes of course he testeted the "Monoro" its the very same car. I also have all top Gear on my computer. Don't even try to argue with me on Top Gear, I have seen them all!!

And thats the point.. It isn't quite the same car... For the very same reason you can still buy the 5.7 in the UK.. or a 500 hp version of the same car (There is no gto vxr equivelent). They have different option ranges and suspension setups (spring rates and shock rebound) for different countries. Why? Because each country has different tastes. They also have different color pallets and body setups.
So no.. Top gear has not tested the 5.7l gto or the 6l gto.. In fact.. Based on what I see on the gto forums (I have a name and I use to read alot), most people trade up for the 6.0.. There is no one talking about superiority of the old versus the new. You stand alone based on a car that isn't even sold in the same configuration or body. GM does that with all their cars. In fact all auto makers do.

He has never tested the car.. Yet again.. There are differences between the two for tastes of each customer.

Oh come on. Give me a break. Just admit you were very wrong and give it up.

actually, a lot of market research and engineering is done with each of the Big 3, and likely all auto makers with variance in suspension geometries for different countries, and even different states... go figure.

[dm_h_2007]

Oh come on. Give me a break. Just admit you were very wrong and give it up.
How am I wrong? Ive been telling you for 2 pages it isn't the same car. Its the same chasis and basic design, but they change spring rates, tires, engines, etc to meet a countries tastes. You cant use top gear as an arguement.

Go read clarkson's column!! He even says the 6.0 VAUXHALL MONARO VX-R is the very same car as the 6.0 Pontiac GTO!!! And is soft because of it, and he was talking about the one for sale in the UK!!!

[nthfinity]

Oh come on. Give me a break. Just admit you were very wrong and give it up.
How am I wrong? Ive been telling you for 2 pages it isn't the same car. Its the same chasis and basic design, but they change spring rates, tires, engines, etc to meet a countries tastes. You cant use top gear as an arguement.

Go read clarkson's column!! He even says the 6.0 VAUXHALL is the very same car as the 6.0 Pontiac GTO!!! And is soft because of it, and he was talking about the one for sale in the UK!!!

Citing Clarkson on an authority on engineering isn't a very good argument, you know LOL

[graywolf624]

Go read clarkson's column!! He even says the 6.0 VAUXHALL MONARO VX-R is the very same car as the 6.0 Pontiac GTO!!! And is soft because of it, and he was talking about the one for sale in the UK!!!
Your citing the man that refered to the new C6's engine as a 5.7L. Care to reconsider your source?

[dm_h_2007]

Oh come on. Give me a break. Just admit you were very wrong and give it up.
How am I wrong? Ive been telling you for 2 pages it isn't the same car. Its the same chasis and basic design, but they change spring rates, tires, engines, etc to meet a countries tastes. You cant use top gear as an arguement.

Go read clarkson's column!! He even says the 6.0 VAUXHALL is the very same car as the 6.0 Pontiac GTO!!! And is soft because of it, and he was talking about the one for sale in the UK!!!

Citing Clarkson on an authority on engineering isn't a very good argument, you know LOL

Well I gave you guys 5 different links. Until you can give me one single link that supports some big difference in the 5.7 European Monaro and the 5.7 American GTO, and the 6.0 European Monaro and the 6.0 American GTO, you guys are pathetic.

If there is a real difference and you can prove it with links I will be glad to admit I'm wrong, but until I see some links you guys are just spinning your wheels.

[dm_h_2007]

Here is a yet another quote that supports that they are the same -

"Most recently, the current Monaro has been exported to overseas markets. It is sold, in left hand drive, in the Middle East as the Chevrolet Lumina Coupe, and in the United States as the Pontiac GTO, reviving another classic muscle car icon. It is also sold in the United Kingdom as the Vauxhall Monaro where it won Top Gear's best muscle car award.

Complaints about the Pontiac GTO's sedate styling from American consumers saw the addition of two bonnet scoops in 2005, with the VZ series Monaro, to recall the later muscle-car variants of the late 1960s' models. The bonnet scoops serve no functional purpose. In the eyes of the Australian press, the scoops have spoiled the lines, while the American media seem to accept them. The 2005 and 2006 GTO also received a Gen IV 6.0 L engine putting out 400 hp (298 kW); the Australian HSV GTO coupe got a similar engine in its Z series; and Vauxhall launched this as the Monaro VXR in the UK.

Holden's PR says that the scoops recall the HT Monaro.

Third generation Monaro production finished on December 13, 2005. The last Pontiac GTO was produced with little fanfare on June 17, 2006. HSV GTO coupes may also continue longer than the Monaro itself. Like the earlier CV8-R models CV8-Zs had extra features including a metallic orange colour, special wheels and a sunroof as standard; the same price was charged for the CV8-Zs as the prior VZ CV8s."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Monaro

And another -

"The Pontiac GTO was relaunched in the United States in late 2003, based on the Holden Monaro. The Monaro is a 2 door coupe variant of the Australian developed VT/VX Holden Commodore. The Commodore was in turn developed by enlarging the European designed 1994 Opel Omega B, which was marketed in its original form in the U.S. from 1997 to 2001 as the Cadillac Catera.

The revival was prompted by former GM chairman Bob Lutz, who drove a Holden Monaro while on a business trip in Australia.

The GTO was produced in the suburb of Elizabeth, South Australia, and is equipped with the Corvette's LS1 ('04) and LS2 ('05-'06) V8 engine with a choice of a 6-speed manual transmission or a 4-speed automatic. The same model is sold in the United Kingdom as a Vauxhall and in the Middle East as a Chevrolet Lumina SS. GM North America made a deal with Holden for them to produce a maximum of 18,000 vehicles per year starting in late 2003 and going through to the end of the 2006 model year. 18,000 was the production limit for the model at the Australian assembly plant.

Despite high expectations by GM to sell 18,000 units, the Monaro-based GTO received a lukewarm reception in the U.S. It was frequently derided for its conservative styling, which many critics felt was too anonymous to befit either the GTO heritage or the current car's performance. Aside from the styling, the GTO faithful were further insulted by GM's failure to present a U.S.-built car that incorporated any design lineage from the muscular icons of the 1960s and 1970s. Given the newly revived muscle car climate, it was also overshadowed by the Chrysler 300, the Dodge Charger, and the new Ford Mustang. Sales were also limited because of dealer tactics, such as initially charging large markups and denying requests for test drives of the vehicle. By the end of the year, the 2004s were selling with significant discounts. Sales were 13,569 of 15,728 cars for 2004."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_GTO

[nthfinity]

basically the same car does not equate to the "same" car. for differences on the suspension set up, it was written about in 2004 when the GTO came to the US; i'm sure there are some magazine scans of it somewhere.

still, where do you think 8,000,000$ was spent on bringng the car over here? certainly not soley on the fuel tank ;)

5 links of amature information doesn't equate to an engineering certainty, now does it?

[dm_h_2007]

basically the same car does not equate to the "same" car. for differences on the suspension set up, it was written about in 2004 when the GTO came to the US; i'm sure there are some magazine scans of it somewhere.

still, where do you think 8,000,000$ was spent on bringng the car over here? certainly not soley on the fuel tank ;)

5 links of amature information doesn't equate to an engineering certainty, now does it?

5 links of "amature information" (Top Gear is now considered Amature?) still beats no links at all. Find me even a tiny little scrap of info to support what you are saying and I will be impressed.

[nthfinity]

"The Pontiac GTO was relaunched in the United States in late 2003, based on the Holden Monaro


Bingo, based does not equate to same car, same suspension geometries, epa testing, crash testing ;)

[graywolf624]

man.. Do you even read the links you post.. They actually say the car is different in the first few sentences:
Most recently, the current Monaro has been exported to overseas markets. It is sold, in left hand drive, in the Middle East as the Chevrolet Lumina Coupe, and in the United States as the Pontiac GTO, reviving another classic muscle car icon.
What side of the car do the brits drive on? What side of the car do the Americans drive on? Put two and two together.... what does that say about the cars?

[dm_h_2007]

"The Pontiac GTO was relaunched in the United States in late 2003, based on the Holden Monaro


Bingo, based does not equate to same car ;)

Yes but Wiki is VERY good at listing out every single difference between models and yet they listed none. Again, come back when you have a link to ANYTHING credible that lists any differences to suspension or anything else.

[nthfinity]

5 links of "amature information" (Top Gear is now considered Amature?) still beats no links at all. Find me even a tiny little scrap of info to support what you are saying and I will be impressed.

Find me a suspension engineer, or mechanical engineer at Top Gear magazine, they are professional journalists; nothing more, nothing less.

[nthfinity]

how about this, find me absolute proof that they are the same?

$8,000,000 was spent bringing the GTO to the USA, if it were the same car, much much much less would've been spent. its 95% same, sure... id say thats a fair estimate

[dm_h_2007]

5 links of "amature information" (Top Gear is now considered Amature?) still beats no links at all. Find me even a tiny little scrap of info to support what you are saying and I will be impressed.

Find me a suspension engineer, or mechanical engineer at Top Gear magazine, they are professional journalists; nothing more, nothing less.

Better yet why don't you find a single engineer, or mechanical engineer IN THE WORLD that can list any real difference between the American and European versions of this car!!

[dm_h_2007]

how about this, find me absolute proof that they are the same?

$8,000,000 was spent bringing the GTO to the USA, if it were the same car, much much much less would've been spent. its 95% same, sure... id say thats a fair estimate

Dude you can try to turn this around all you want but to anyone else reading all of this is very easy to see that you are the one making claims without a single link or shred of proof to back it up what so ever. If you want to question the validity of Clarkson or Top Gear I'm all for it!! But you are going to have to bring something to this convo other than your idle speculation!

[graywolf624]

Better yet why don't you find a single engineer, or mechanical engineer IN THE WORLD that can list any real difference between the American and European versions of this car!!
Hello.. Mcfly..
Right hand versus left hand drive. What side the steering wheel is on seems like a real difference to me.

[nthfinity]

5 links of "amature information" (Top Gear is now considered Amature?) still beats no links at all. Find me even a tiny little scrap of info to support what you are saying and I will be impressed.

Find me a suspension engineer, or mechanical engineer at Top Gear magazine, they are professional journalists; nothing more, nothing less.

Better yet why don't you find a single engineer, or mechanical engineer IN THE WORLD that can list any real difference between the American and European versions of this car!!

Fuel tank, suspension gemotries (need to make up the differnce in weight bias due to tank) LHD conversion, EPA conversion, Crash testing

All obvious, why do you need an engineer to tell you the obvious?

[dm_h_2007]

Better yet why don't you find a single engineer, or mechanical engineer IN THE WORLD that can list any real difference between the American and European versions of this car!!
Hello.. Mcfly..
Right hand versus left hand drive. What side the steering wheel is on seems like a real difference to me.

Thats a good start!! There is one difference we can all agree on. Some of the European models have LH drive. You have anything else? I think we all know a lot of cars are made in both left and right had drive that have no other real differences.

[dm_h_2007]

5 links of "amature information" (Top Gear is now considered Amature?) still beats no links at all. Find me even a tiny little scrap of info to support what you are saying and I will be impressed.

Find me a suspension engineer, or mechanical engineer at Top Gear magazine, they are professional journalists; nothing more, nothing less.

Better yet why don't you find a single engineer, or mechanical engineer IN THE WORLD that can list any real difference between the American and European versions of this car!!

Fuel tank, suspension gemotries (need to make up the differnce in weight bias due to tank) LHD conversion, EPA conversion, Crash testing

All obvious, why do you need an engineer to tell you the obvious?

Got a link to that?

[dm_h_2007]

I have to be honest here, what are we even arguing about again?? Let me get this strait, you guys are saying the American 6.0 GTO is better than the American 5.7 GTO even though the European 5.7 Monaro might be better than the European 6.0 Monaro??

Again, prove this with some links.

[graywolf624]

Thats a good start!! There is one difference we can all agree on. Some of the European models have LH drive. You have anything else? I think we all know a lot of cars are made in both left and right had drive that have no other real differences.
Uh.. no...
When you switch the drive train from one side to the other there are significant differences. The location of the transmision, the steering column, the steering boxes, etc. Right there you've got massive changes.

Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it.

Then their is the external body.. only a blind man wouldn't know thats been changed.

Then theres the engine options.. No 500 hp gto here. No 5.7 for sale.

So why for one second do you think that a 2004 model US gto has the same suspension and is the same as a 2005 or 6 UK GTO 5.7? Even the side you drive the car on will change where the weight is in the car and thus the performance. You can tell that with any simple race car design program.

[graywolf624]

How about this one:
The major tragedy in retrofitting the GTO to U.S. specs is trunk room. Because our fuel tank requirements are more heavily influenced by lawyers in search of Jaguar payments, the GTO's tank has been moved behind the rear seats, where it swallows almost half the available space, leaving the GTO with enough room for a couple of roll-ons or possibly two sets of golf bags.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=157,184&sid=184&article=6594

[nthfinity]

5 links of "amature information" (Top Gear is now considered Amature?) still beats no links at all. Find me even a tiny little scrap of info to support what you are saying and I will be impressed.

Find me a suspension engineer, or mechanical engineer at Top Gear magazine, they are professional journalists; nothing more, nothing less.

Better yet why don't you find a single engineer, or mechanical engineer IN THE WORLD that can list any real difference between the American and European versions of this car!!

Fuel tank, suspension gemotries (need to make up the differnce in weight bias due to tank) LHD conversion, EPA conversion, Crash testing

All obvious, why do you need an engineer to tell you the obvious?

Got a link to that?

"think mcfly, think!"

LMFAO
:ROLMAO:
:spaz:

government regulations mang, its kind of a no brainer

fuel tank and revised suspension (minimally due to revised fuel tank) is a no brainer

LHD, you conced, but call it "easy"

EPA emissions testing; rigorous, sure GM are experts, but this is nessisary; and altogether very different to Encap IV... no brainer

Crash testing: every car in the US that isn't kit built, imported in numbers over 300 per year, and for show + display requires full Ann Arbor Gov. DOT crash testing, GM had modified the car to pass side saftey by including a steel torsional bar... this regulation doesn't exist in europe, uk, or austrailia.. again, a no brainer

[graywolf624]

have to be honest here, what are we even arguing about again?? Let me get this strait, you guys are saying the American 6.0 GTO is better than the American 5.7 GTO even though the European 5.7 Monaro might be better than the European 6.0 Monaro??
We are saying the european vauxhall's have no bearing whatsoever on how the GTO's relate. I am telling you there is no such prefer the 5.7l going on in the US GTO community. In fact, quite the opposite, most of them are trading in their cars for 6.0 L so they have more bhp. As such telling everyone, before the 6.0 was even released, that a car would be released with more power (making the suspension arguement moot anyway as no one could buy or test the 6.0 yet) killed 2004 sales.

[dm_h_2007]

Thats a good start!! There is one difference we can all agree on. Some of the European models have LH drive. You have anything else? I think we all know a lot of cars are made in both left and right had drive that have no other real differences.
Uh.. no...
When you switch the drive train from one side to the other there are significant differences. The location of the transmision, the steering column, the steering boxes, etc. Right there you've got massive changes.

Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it.

Then their is the external body.. only a blind man wouldn't know thats been changed.

Then theres the engine options.. No 500 hp gto here. No 5.7 for sale.

So why for one second do you think that a 2004 model US gto has the same suspension and is the same as a 2005 or 6 UK GTO 5.7? Even the side you drive the car on will change where the weight is in the car and thus the performance. You can tell that with any simple race car design program.

Again come on man, don't waste you time typing all that out. If any of that is true you should easily be able to find an article written about. Anything. An article that says something to the effect of "wow the American GTO sure does not match up to its sister European Monaro" or "wow the American GTO blows its sister European Monaro away!".

But stop with your personal speculation.

[nthfinity]

I never said one was better then the other, as honeslty I don't care... i never liked the car much to begin with TBH

but your arguemnts lack all validity, and logic

[dm_h_2007]

have to be honest here, what are we even arguing about again?? Let me get this strait, you guys are saying the American 6.0 GTO is better than the American 5.7 GTO even though the European 5.7 Monaro might be better than the European 6.0 Monaro??
We are saying the european vauxhall's have no bearing whatsoever on how the GTO's relate. I am telling you there is no such prefer the 5.7l going on in the US GTO community. In fact, quite the opposite, most of them are trading in their cars for 6.0 L so they have more bhp. As such telling everyone, before the 6.0 was even released, that a car would be released with more power (making the suspension arguement moot anyway as no one could buy or test the 6.0 yet) killed 2004 sales.

Wow ok, then that should be VERY easy for you to link! I will even call you the winner if you can link a single thread from a GTO board with users saying that they are trading in their 5.7s for a 6.0s!!

Back in 30, THE OFFICE is on!

[graywolf624]

First post on the new age gto forums New and Prospective Owner Forum .. What a shock
http://www.newagegto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6445

Someone trading in for a car with more bhp.. Never seen that before... :roll:

But stop with your personal speculation.
Perhaps you should do a search of your own. Vauxhalls own website advertises the 500 hp vxr500. The article I posted earlier discusses the gas tank. A fool can see the cosmetic differences and the side of the car they drive on. As someone who has worked with a decent number of cars and previously created a track car monstrosity, I can comment on the weight of steering components and the effect of changing their location relative to weight and actually changing the components in a car. Just a change in the steering box ratios makes a hell of a difference.

[dm_h_2007]

First post on the new age gto forums New and Prospective Owner Forum .. What a shock
http://www.newagegto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6445

Someone trading in for a car with more bhp.. Never seen that before... :roll:

But stop with your personal speculation.
Perhaps you should do a search of your own. Vauxhalls own website advertises the 500 hp vxr500. The article I posted earlier discusses the gas tank. A fool can see the cosmetic differences and the side of the car they drive on. As someone who has worked with a decent number of cars and previously created a track car monstrosity, I can comment on the weight of steering components and the effect of changing their location relative to weight and actually changing the components in a car. Just a change in the steering box ratios makes a hell of a difference.

LOL well good job!! But that thread didn’t say anything. The person talking about trading in the 5.7 for a 6.0 did not list one single reason why! You have to do a little better than that. The person has to at least say why they think the 6.0 is better than the 5.7. And I bet 99% of those will list the 50 more HP (which you didn’t even know was the difference!) as the reason! LOL But I have registered on that board and will ask the question about the American 5.7 being better than the American 6.0.

And again please stop with all this BS speculation, you being an expert and that the steering column makes a "hell of a difference"! LOL give us all a break! Yeah car XYZ with the RHD did the ring in 8:02 but the same care with LHD did it in 7:55!! LMAO! :roll:

[graywolf624]

And again please stop with all this BS speculation, you being an expert and that the steering column makes a "hell of a difference"! LOL give us all a break! Yeah car XYZ with the RHD did the ring in 8:02 but the same care with LHD did it in 7:55!! LMAO
You apparently have no understanding... Even options can make a difference. Why do you think people who race buy the cars without air conditioning.
You laugh, but think about whats involved.. Its not speculation. Short list of things even cosmetically.. Shifter (since its a mechanical shifter, for it to move you have to move the transmission or get a different one)...
pedals... again if it isn;t electric massive movements.
Steering wheel and column
steering box.
all the wiring and controls, steering wheel instrument cluster gauges.. all change positions in the car, and in most cases change parts since they have to face a different direction.
You can tell the difference on a track between a car with a passenger.. Helll a car with heavier seats is obvious to really good drivers. So how do you think such a large change is going to go unnoticed.

Not to mention the gas tank being in a different location. Do you have any idea how much a loaded tank of petro weighs? Hell Im not a great driver and I can tell the difference in my cars performance just based on how much petro is in the tank.

I will even call you the winner if you can link a single thread from a GTO board with users saying that they are trading in their 5.7s for a 6.0s!!

That doesnt say anything about reasons.. And well duh its going to be about the bhp.. Thats really the main difference in the US between the two. That was the whole point.. YOu tell the public your going to sell them the same car for the same money with 50 hp more.. Which will they buy.. man thats a real tough one.

[TopGearNL]

Sorry to interfere in the discussion boys.

Is the 6.0 Litre LS2 the same engine as the 5.7 only bigger? Or is it a completely different engine?

[graywolf624]

1 gallon of gasoline equals 5.8 to 6.5 lbs.
Assume a 15 gallon tank thats 87 lbs youve just moved around the back of the car. You care to tell us how moving 87 lbs around the back of a car won't change performance?

[graywolf624]

Is the 6.0 Litre LS2 the same engine as the 5.7 only bigger? Or is it a completely different engine?
Different engine, but more of an evolution then a revolution. The ls2 is actually about 15 lbs lighter then the ls2 in auto form.http://wheeltalk.fancal.net/?p=634 And more then that in manual.

[dm_h_2007]

And again please stop with all this BS speculation, you being an expert and that the steering column makes a "hell of a difference"! LOL give us all a break! Yeah car XYZ with the RHD did the ring in 8:02 but the same care with LHD did it in 7:55!! LMAO
You apparently have no understanding... Even options can make a difference. Why do you think people who race buy the cars without air conditioning.
You laugh, but think about whats involved.. Its not speculation. Short list of things even cosmetically.. Shifter (since its a mechanical shifter, for it to move you have to move the transmission or get a different one)...
pedals... again if it isn;t electric massive movements.
Steering wheel and column
steering box.
all the wiring and controls, steering wheel instrument cluster gauges.. all change positions in the car, and in most cases change parts since they have to face a different direction.
You can tell the difference on a track between a car with a passenger.. Helll a car with heavier seats is obvious to really good drivers. So how do you think such a large change is going to go unnoticed.

Not to mention the gas tank being in a different location. Do you have any idea how much a loaded tank of petro weighs? Hell Im not a great driver and I can tell the difference in my cars performance just based on how much petro is in the tank.

I will even call you the winner if you can link a single thread from a GTO board with users saying that they are trading in their 5.7s for a 6.0s!!

That doesnt say anything about reasons.. And well duh its going to be about the bhp.. Thats really the main difference in the US between the two. That was the whole point.. YOu tell the public your going to sell them the same car for the same money with 50 hp more.. Which will they buy.. man thats a real tough one.

LOL dude I did not read a word of this novel!! Haven't I made it clear that I do not value your opinions by now? At this point I just look through your posts for links! Let me know when you get some! ;)

Now would be the time to post a link of ANY time track test that showed a LHD model beating a RHD model of the same car or visa versa!

[TopGearNL]

Is the 6.0 Litre LS2 the same engine as the 5.7 only bigger? Or is it a completely different engine?
Different engine, but more of an evolution then a revolution.

Ah I see.

Which one is better overall, the 6.0 Litre might have more power but the petrol tank is moved and suspension changed..

You know whats also funny, when they tested the Monaro Vxr for the first time on TopGear on the beach it didn't have a 6.0 Litre engine but a 5.7 and neither did it have those scoops on the bonnet. Then when Richard tested it on the track it did. So my question, why?

[graywolf624]

Ah I see.

Which one is better overall, the 6.0 Litre might have more power but the petrol tank is moved and suspension changed..

The 6.0 liter engine is lighter then the 5.7. And we're talking about the US right now.. The petrol tank is the same in the US. Its different from what you have in other countries.

[nthfinity]

Is the 6.0 Litre LS2 the same engine as the 5.7 only bigger? Or is it a completely different engine?
Different engine, but more of an evolution then a revolution.

Ah I see.

Which one is better overall, the 6.0 Litre might have more power but the petrol tank is moved and suspension changed..

You know whats also funny, when they tested the Monaro Vxr for the first time on TopGear on the beach it didn't have a 6.0 Litre engine but a 5.7 and neither did it have those scoops on the bonnet. Then when Richard tested it on the track it did. So my question, why?

the 6.0 liter varriant has functional ram air, which aids to lending more power at speed; wheras teh 5.7 doesn't have the raim air scoops ;)

[graywolf624]

LOL dude I did not read a word of this novel!! Haven't I made it clear that I do not value your opinions by now? At this point I just look through your posts for links! Let me know when you get some!
Weight of gasoline
http://www.santacruzpl.org/readyref/files/g-l/gasoline.shtml

[dm_h_2007]

Is the 6.0 Litre LS2 the same engine as the 5.7 only bigger? Or is it a completely different engine?
Different engine, but more of an evolution then a revolution.



You know whats also funny, when they tested the Monaro Vxr for the first time on TopGear on the beach it didn't have a 6.0 Litre engine but a 5.7 and neither did it have those scoops on the bonnet. Then when Richard tested it on the track it did. So my question, why?

Because the Holden Monaro, Vauxhall Monaro VX-R, and Pontiac GTO were all available with the 5.7 and 6.0 at one time or another. And at the time that James May in the VX-R Top Gear episode aired they had not recieved a 6.0 to test yet.

[nthfinity]

LOL dude I did not read a word of this novel!! Haven't I made it clear that I do not value your opinions by now? At this point I just look through your posts for links! Let me know when you get some!


spoken like a true idiot. it's obvious you don't base your opinions on logic and fact, but rather blatent fanboy rethoric quoting subjective magazines full of nada where its easier to say "this is that"

the VXR = Monaro = GTO is analagous to the Enzo = MC12

while the chassis is identical, suspension settings are not, aero/body work is not, engine is de-tuned, and the interior trim is vastly different. (mc12 vs. enzo)

[dm_h_2007]

LOL dude I did not read a word of this novel!! Haven't I made it clear that I do not value your opinions by now? At this point I just look through your posts for links! Let me know when you get some!


spoken like a true idiot. it's obvious you don't base your opinions on logic and fact, but rather blatent fanboy rethoric quoting subjective magazines full of nada where its easier to say "this is that"

the VXR = Monaro = GTO is analagous to the Enzo = MC12

while the chassis is identical, suspension settings are not, aero/body work is not, engine is de-tuned, and the interior trim is vastly different. (mc12 vs. enzo)

I'm an idiot but you are a guy that can not provide a single link to support anything you are trying to claim.... hmmmm.

[dm_h_2007]

And P.S. that is a terrible analogy, a good analogy would be comparing a LHD and RHD F430. You guys keep saying how brilliant you are and how much of a difference the steering side makes. So take a shot at that! The F430 is available in both RHD and LHD, which is better and why?

(LMAO!! This should be good! Especially to a dumb idiot like me! :lol: And I bet they will have no links to what ever the try to say lol!)

[nthfinity]

LOL dude I did not read a word of this novel!! Haven't I made it clear that I do not value your opinions by now? At this point I just look through your posts for links! Let me know when you get some!


spoken like a true idiot. it's obvious you don't base your opinions on logic and fact, but rather blatent fanboy rethoric quoting subjective magazines full of nada where its easier to say "this is that"

the VXR = Monaro = GTO is analagous to the Enzo = MC12

while the chassis is identical, suspension settings are not, aero/body work is not, engine is de-tuned, and the interior trim is vastly different. (mc12 vs. enzo)

I'm an idiot but you are a guy that can not provide a single link to support anything you are trying to claim.... hmmmm.

This is just common sence to anybody who passed high school phisics mate.

[TopGearNL]

Is the 6.0 Litre LS2 the same engine as the 5.7 only bigger? Or is it a completely different engine?
Different engine, but more of an evolution then a revolution.



You know whats also funny, when they tested the Monaro Vxr for the first time on TopGear on the beach it didn't have a 6.0 Litre engine but a 5.7 and neither did it have those scoops on the bonnet. Then when Richard tested it on the track it did. So my question, why?

Because the Holden Monaro, Vauxhall Monaro VX-R, and Pontiac GTO were all available with the 5.7 and 6.0 at one time or another. And at the time that James May in the VX-R Top Gear episode aired they had not recieved a 6.0 to test yet.

So the Vxr was available with a 5.7 litre engine too then. But why call it the Vxr then if it isn't different to the normal Monaro? :?

[Mattk]

I'm an idiot but you are a guy that can not provide a single link to support anything you are trying to claim....

Why don't you go find some yourself? Besides, they all look different from the exterior. Pretty obvious.

[graywolf624]

2004 vs 2005 gto http://www.newagegto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6029&highlight=monaro

Not a mention of handling there mate. Not a one. You would think it if was so much better in the 5.7of 2004 someone would have said something.


The vxr is the UKs 6.0.. They also have the vxr500 (a 500 hp versions) and one called just the v8.. the 5.7l

In the US they sold a gto with a 5.7 for 2004.. Then sold a 6.0L for 2005 and 2006.

And P.S. that is a terrible analogy, a good analogy would be comparing a LHD and RHD F430. You guys keep saying how brilliant you are and how much of a difference the steering side makes. So take a shot at that! The F430 is available in both RHD and LHD, which is better and why?

No one said better. They said different. The minute you move items of significant weight around in a car you change its handling charachteristics. That doesnt take a rocket scientist.

[TopGearNL]

http://www.herelectricvehicle.com/monaro.html

[graywolf624]

From the above link.. Just to name a few more things:

While sharing the same basic engine configuration with the base-level Chevrolet Corvette, the LS1 engine in the GTO has been modified with a high-lift camshaft and increased airflow induction to create greater horsepower and low-end torque than the Holden Monaro to address the needs of U.S. drivers.

So far we've provided links to different engine tuning.. Body styles.. sides of the car you drive on.. bhp availability...location of the gas tank...
How much more do you want? Any intro to physic student would understand those make a hell of alot of difference even without different spring rates and shocks.

[TopGearNL]

The vxr is the UKs 6.0.. They also have the vxr500 (a 500 hp versions) and one called just the v8.. the 5.7l

Yes I know Greywolf, but they had a Vauxhall Monaro Vxr on that beach on TopGear with a 5.7 Litre engine. But why was that called the Vxr since the standard Monaro already had that engine :bah:

[graywolf624]

Not a clue... Better options?

They do that alot.. My car is a transam.. The only real differences to a formula is the body kit...

[TopGearNL]

Not a clue... Better options?

They do that alot.. My car is a transam.. The only real differences to a formula is the body kit...

I just watched the video again. It seems that that Vxr is the standard engine one only with the Vxr body (no nostruls).

Anyway, your right Graywolf in this whole debate! You just make more sense LOL

[dm_h_2007]

2004 vs 2005 gto http://www.newagegto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6029&highlight=monaro

Not a mention of handling there mate. Not a one. You would think it if was so much better in the 5.7of 2004 someone would have said something.




LOL did you even bother to read through this thread?? A lot of people were basically saying that the only difference in the 04 and 05/06 is the engine and the size of the brakes. But beyond that they are the same and their are a lot more "speed parts" for the 04/LS1 making it a better mod car!!!

And no one asked the question of if there were some things better about the stock LS1 than the stock LS2. When my registration on that board goes through I plan to ask!!

[TopGearNL]

Graywolf: http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/vauxhall-monaro-vxr-1003986.html :wink:

[dm_h_2007]

From the above link.. Just to name a few more things:

While sharing the same basic engine configuration with the base-level Chevrolet Corvette, the LS1 engine in the GTO has been modified with a high-lift camshaft and increased airflow induction to create greater horsepower and low-end torque than the Holden Monaro to address the needs of U.S. drivers.

So far we've provided links to different engine tuning.. Body styles.. sides of the car you drive on.. bhp availability...location of the gas tank...
How much more do you want? Any intro to physic student would understand those make a hell of alot of difference even without different spring rates and shocks.

How much more do i want? The engine was never in dispute. The suspension and handleing and weight were.

And where did you show a link that the American GTO's gas tank is NOT located over therRear axel like the European models???!?!? Please relist this link!! You will win 100% when I see this link that I must have missed!!

[Al Fucking Gore]

Sorry mr Dm_H_2007, but you are in fact another internets idiot

Because the Monaro-to-GTO transformation was hasty—about 17 months, says GM—there wasn't much time or budget to thoroughly alter the car. The biggest change involved moving the fuel tank from below the trunk floor to inside the trunk—to help keep the GTO from becoming a fireball in rear-end collisions. The 18.5-gallon plastic-encased tank offers a range of about 350 miles while chopping the trunk almost in half, cutting cargo space down to about two golf bags' worth.

........

BARRY WINFIELD
Having visited Holden's operations in Australia, where I drove the Holden Monaro on which this Pontiac is based, I was looking forward with great anticipation to driving a GTO in the States.
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto.html

What does 5 seconds of googling provide? a car that is BASED on a Monaro, not the SAME car. Good job blanco Nino, but your ass just got sacked.

[graywolf624]

LOL did you even bother to read through this thread?? A lot of people were basically saying that the only difference in the 04 and 05/06 is the engine and the size of the brakes. But beyond that they are the same and their are a lot more "speed parts" for the 04/LS1 making it a better mod car!!!
Hello.. Is anyone home?

I never said the 05/06 handled better. I said the 04 has not been noted to handle better. Hence there is no preference of the 04 over the 05, performance parts not withstanding. If they are mostly the same car (no mention of a uk car here) then it means the 05 is superior in stock form.. Now, just like the uk-US stuff there are more less obvious but just as important differences.. But the point remains that in 04 when the car was released gm screwed up by announcing they were going to release a car with a higher bhp engine the following year.

Hell.. Id rather have an 04 because they are cheaper to get ahold of thanks to more depreciation... But the point remains.. same car.. same price.. Im taking the 05. Unless your going to town modding the car, most people arent going to disagree with that setiment. 50 more hp for the same price.. better brakes for the same price.. Im in.

[dm_h_2007]

Sorry mr Dm_H_2007, but you are in fact another internets idiot

Because the Monaro-to-GTO transformation was hasty—about 17 months, says GM—there wasn't much time or budget to thoroughly alter the car. The biggest change involved moving the fuel tank from below the trunk floor to inside the trunk—to help keep the GTO from becoming a fireball in rear-end collisions. The 18.5-gallon plastic-encased tank offers a range of about 350 miles while chopping the trunk almost in half, cutting cargo space down to about two golf bags' worth.

........

BARRY WINFIELD
Having visited Holden's operations in Australia, where I drove the Holden Monaro on which this Pontiac is based, I was looking forward with great anticipation to driving a GTO in the States.
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto.html

What does 5 seconds of googling provide? a car that is BASED on a Monaro, not the SAME car. Good job blanco Nino, but your ass just got sacked.

LOL nice try! That is just pointing out the problem of both the European and American 6.0. They talked about it on Top Gear. So sorry that was a good try but that just supports what I have been saying in this thread out of control, it does not prove me wrong. Both the American and European 6.0 has the fule tank over the rear axel and the smaller trunk.

[Al Fucking Gore]

Sorry mr Dm_H_2007, but you are in fact another internets idiot

Because the Monaro-to-GTO transformation was hasty—about 17 months, says GM—there wasn't much time or budget to thoroughly alter the car. The biggest change involved moving the fuel tank from below the trunk floor to inside the trunk—to help keep the GTO from becoming a fireball in rear-end collisions. The 18.5-gallon plastic-encased tank offers a range of about 350 miles while chopping the trunk almost in half, cutting cargo space down to about two golf bags' worth.

........

BARRY WINFIELD
Having visited Holden's operations in Australia, where I drove the Holden Monaro on which this Pontiac is based, I was looking forward with great anticipation to driving a GTO in the States.
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto.html

What does 5 seconds of googling provide? a car that is BASED on a Monaro, not the SAME car. Good job blanco Nino, but your ass just got sacked.

LOL nice try! That is just pointing out the problem of both the European and American 6.0. They talked about it on Top Gear. So sorry that was a good try but that just supports what I have been saying in this thread out of control, it does not prove me wrong. Both the American and European 6.0 has the fule tank over the rear axel and the smaller trunk.

Once again, proving yourself an Idiot. This article is about the 5.7 Liter GTO, not the 6.0 liter.

Stop cluttering my internets with crap!

[graywolf624]

^^^ You just proved yourself an idiot.. Why..

The most significant difference has occurred not in the engine bay, but in the boot. This is because the fuel tank has been moved up behind the rear seats, meaning the load area's volume has shrunk from a generous 370 litres to a modest 245 litres. So you won't be able to carry four sets of golf clubs in it any more - in fact, even weekends away could pose problems.
Meaning the 5.7 L Monaro does not have its fuel tank there. The 5.7L in the US did. If both the 5.7 liters and the 6.0 liters arent the same.. then you cant use a comparison of the two in either country interchangably.
Game set match. Please drive through.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/55081/vauxhall_monaro.html

[dm_h_2007]

Sorry mr Dm_H_2007, but you are in fact another internets idiot

Because the Monaro-to-GTO transformation was hasty—about 17 months, says GM—there wasn't much time or budget to thoroughly alter the car. The biggest change involved moving the fuel tank from below the trunk floor to inside the trunk—to help keep the GTO from becoming a fireball in rear-end collisions. The 18.5-gallon plastic-encased tank offers a range of about 350 miles while chopping the trunk almost in half, cutting cargo space down to about two golf bags' worth.

........

BARRY WINFIELD
Having visited Holden's operations in Australia, where I drove the Holden Monaro on which this Pontiac is based, I was looking forward with great anticipation to driving a GTO in the States.
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto.html

What does 5 seconds of googling provide? a car that is BASED on a Monaro, not the SAME car. Good job blanco Nino, but your ass just got sacked.

LOL nice try! That is just pointing out the problem of both the European and American 6.0. They talked about it on Top Gear. So sorry that was a good try but that just supports what I have been saying in this thread out of control, it does not prove me wrong. Both the American and European 6.0 has the fule tank over the rear axel and the smaller trunk.

Once again, proving yourself an Idiot. This article is about the 5.7 Liter GTO, not the 6.0 liter.

Stop cluttering my internets with crap!

Obviously that fuel tank move was made in some of the later 5.7s as well as all the 6.0s. That’s what this article is saying. But you did teach me something. Before seeing this article I did not know that some of the later 5.7’s has this same problem. Thanks a lot for the link!! It has been bookmarked! And thinks for being so nice!! :roll:

[Mattk]

But why was that called the Vxr since the standard Monaro already had that engine

Marketing. 8)

I've forgotten what this argument is about. This is getting out of hand.

[TopGearNL]

Anyone know anything about depreciation. What is a Monaro (vxr) likely to cost in 5 years time?

[dm_h_2007]

^^^ You just proved yourself an idiot.. Why..

The most significant difference has occurred not in the engine bay, but in the boot. This is because the fuel tank has been moved up behind the rear seats, meaning the load area's volume has shrunk from a generous 370 litres to a modest 245 litres. So you won't be able to carry four sets of golf clubs in it any more - in fact, even weekends away could pose problems.
Meaning the 5.7 L Monaro does not have its fuel tank there. The 5.7L in the US did. If both the 5.7 liters and the 6.0 liters arent the same.. then you cant use a comparison of the two in either country interchangably.
Game set match. Please drive through.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/55081/vauxhall_monaro.html

What the fuck?! LOL Nice selective quoting! There were comparing the previous European Monaro with the newer European Monaro, NOT THE European with the American!!

You still have not shown that the American 6.0 does not also have the fuel tank location issue! And you won’t be able to because it does!

[nthfinity]

Sorry mr Dm_H_2007, but you are in fact another internets idiot

Because the Monaro-to-GTO transformation was hasty—about 17 months, says GM—there wasn't much time or budget to thoroughly alter the car. The biggest change involved moving the fuel tank from below the trunk floor to inside the trunk—to help keep the GTO from becoming a fireball in rear-end collisions. The 18.5-gallon plastic-encased tank offers a range of about 350 miles while chopping the trunk almost in half, cutting cargo space down to about two golf bags' worth.

........

BARRY WINFIELD
Having visited Holden's operations in Australia, where I drove the Holden Monaro on which this Pontiac is based, I was looking forward with great anticipation to driving a GTO in the States.
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto.html

What does 5 seconds of googling provide? a car that is BASED on a Monaro, not the SAME car. Good job blanco Nino, but your ass just got sacked.

LOL nice try! That is just pointing out the problem of both the European and American 6.0. They talked about it on Top Gear. So sorry that was a good try but that just supports what I have been saying in this thread out of control, it does not prove me wrong. Both the American and European 6.0 has the fule tank over the rear axel and the smaller trunk.

Once again, proving yourself an Idiot. This article is about the 5.7 Liter GTO, not the 6.0 liter.

Stop cluttering my internets with crap!

Obviously that fuel tank move was made in some of the later 5.7s as well as all the 6.0s. That’s what this article is saying. But you did teach me something. Before seeing this article I did not know that some of the later 5.7’s has this same problem. Thanks a lot for the link!! It has been bookmarked! And thinks for being so nice!! :roll:

actually, no; the only 5.7's that had this tank were the US built 5.7 GTO; and none others.

This is the same thing that's been said for the last 4 pages, yet you fail to grasp on this simple item... I can't figure out why. :|

[Mattk]

The Holden Monaro retains its value relatively well in Australia. Not sure about the Vauxhaull or the Pontiac, because it won't have the same status there.

[graywolf624]

What the fuck?! LOL Nice selective quoting! There were comparing the previous European Monaro with the newer European Monaro, NOT THE European with the American!!
Only one problem einstein.. The American one always had the gas tank in that place from new!

Obviously that fuel tank move was made in some of the later 5.7s as well as all the 6.0s. That’s what this article is saying. But you did teach me something. Before seeing this article I did not know that some of the later 5.7’s has this same problem. Thanks a lot for the link!! It has been bookmarked! And thinks for being so nice!!
*shakes his head...* I'm done with this guy.. Anyone else want to kick him around?

Heres what you have to work with:
A man who believes that 2 cars in different countries, not even produced in the same year, with engines for sale/proven engine tune/gas tank differences (the 5.7l in the US always had the gas tank in the same location), steering system differences, body differences, side of the car you drive on differences will handle the same.
Who is up for the challenge?

[dm_h_2007]

Sorry mr Dm_H_2007, but you are in fact another internets idiot

Because the Monaro-to-GTO transformation was hasty—about 17 months, says GM—there wasn't much time or budget to thoroughly alter the car. The biggest change involved moving the fuel tank from below the trunk floor to inside the trunk—to help keep the GTO from becoming a fireball in rear-end collisions. The 18.5-gallon plastic-encased tank offers a range of about 350 miles while chopping the trunk almost in half, cutting cargo space down to about two golf bags' worth.

........

BARRY WINFIELD
Having visited Holden's operations in Australia, where I drove the Holden Monaro on which this Pontiac is based, I was looking forward with great anticipation to driving a GTO in the States.
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto.html

What does 5 seconds of googling provide? a car that is BASED on a Monaro, not the SAME car. Good job blanco Nino, but your ass just got sacked.

LOL nice try! That is just pointing out the problem of both the European and American 6.0. They talked about it on Top Gear. So sorry that was a good try but that just supports what I have been saying in this thread out of control, it does not prove me wrong. Both the American and European 6.0 has the fule tank over the rear axel and the smaller trunk.

Once again, proving yourself an Idiot. This article is about the 5.7 Liter GTO, not the 6.0 liter.

Stop cluttering my internets with crap!

Obviously that fuel tank move was made in some of the later 5.7s as well as all the 6.0s. That’s what this article is saying. But you did teach me something. Before seeing this article I did not know that some of the later 5.7’s has this same problem. Thanks a lot for the link!! It has been bookmarked! And thinks for being so nice!! :roll:

actually, no; the only 5.7's that had this tank were the US built 5.7 GTO; and none others.

This is the same thing that's been said for the last 4 pages, yet you fail to grasp on this simple item... I can't figure out why. :|

You cant figure out why? because its not true! The last two or three links have been articles about the European models have this tank location problem!!!

[dm_h_2007]

Obviously that fuel tank move was made in some of the later 5.7s as well as all the 6.0s. That’s what this article is saying. But you did teach me something. Before seeing this article I did not know that some of the later 5.7’s has this same problem. Thanks a lot for the link!! It has been bookmarked! And thinks for being so nice!!
*shakes his head...* I'm done with this moron.. Anyone else want to kick him around?

Heres what you have to work with:
A man who believes that 2 cars in different countries, not even produced in the same year, with engines for sale/proven engine tune/gas tank differences (the 5.7l in the US always had the gas tank in the same location), steering system differences, body differences, side of the car you drive on differences will handle the same.
Who is up for the challenge?

Why dont you just complete the challenge of proving the American 6.0 does not have the same fuel tank location issue as the European models first before trying to change the subject, again!

[graywolf624]

^Because I dont have too.. All I have to prove is that one of the cars clarkson tested, either the 5.7 or the 6.0 is not the same as the 2004 5.7 or the 6.0 2005 or 2006. I've essentially done that.

The last two or three links have been articles about the European models have this tank location problem!!!
Yes, 6.0 models. The American model in 2004 of the 5.7 Liter had this same gas tank from new.. Not the European models. Yet another difference. 2004 5.7L euro model... gas tank different then.. 2004 5.7L american model.

Your arguements are slipping further.

[nthfinity]

The last two or three links have been articles about the European models have this tank location problem!!!
Yes, 6.0 models. The American model in 2004 of the 5.7 Liter had this same gas tank from new.. Not the European models. Yet another difference.

Isn't that what I have been saying? as well as you?

the C + D article is about the GTO, not the Euro monaro platform.

[graywolf624]

^Sometimes we have to repeat it for people who are slow.. I wonder who that could be.. Maybe the guy who still doesnt understand weve given him a difference sheet about 3 miles long so far.

This is why I usually decide it isn't worth my time.. Each time you back them into a corner they change arguements or just say.. oh well that difference doesnt matter.
First it was show me one difference and Ill admit your right.
Then it was show me one person going to trade an 04 for an 05..

Now its.. but the 6.0 has the same engine...

I have two objects.. an apple and an orange..
I can compare them..
but if on the other side i have a pear and an orange...
I cant say the comparison of the second set relates to the first in any way.

[dm_h_2007]

Finally a straight forward explanation. All the American 5.7 GTO's had this fuel tank problem. I can buy that. But you never once said this. Al Fucking Gore was the only one that finally said it and provided a link to it.

You could have (and would have if you knew it) simple said “oh but all the American 5.7’s have the same fuel tank location issues as the 6.0s, it was only the early European 5.7’s that didn’t”.

I’m done here and Al Fucking Gore wins.

[dm_h_2007]

The last two or three links have been articles about the European models have this tank location problem!!!
Yes, 6.0 models. The American model in 2004 of the 5.7 Liter had this same gas tank from new.. Not the European models. Yet another difference.

Isn't that what I have been saying? as well as you?

the C + D article is about the GTO, not the Euro monaro platform.

No you never once said that. Neither of you did. Try to go back and quote yourself where you said this once.

Al Fucking Gore is the only one that said and proved that all American 5.7's had the same fule tank loaction issue. You were saying the very opposite, trying to say that the American 6.0 model somehow didnt have this problem!!

[graywolf624]

^Who exactly do you think Al gore is.. lol..

Man hes thick mates.

[TopGearNL]

Who is Al Gore?

[dm_h_2007]

^Who exactly do you think Al gore is.. lol..

Man hes thick mates.

Even if "Al Fucking Gore" is you, you didnt actually get down to making a point until that post from that ID on the 4th or 5th page!

[graywolf624]

Not me senior...

And I made my point with rhd lhd... Your lack of physics knowledge and the fact that we all pointed out the gas tank to you 3 pages ago not with standing. Go back and read both me and Nfinitys first posts. We both mention the gas tank movement, we just don't in your words, provide link. Why? It is common knowledge.

[nthfinity]

basically the same car does not equate to the "same" car. for differences on the suspension set up, it was written about in 2004 when the GTO came to the US; i'm sure there are some magazine scans of it somewhere.

still, where do you think 8,000,000$ was spent on bringng the car over here? certainly not soley on the fuel tank ;)

5 links of amature information doesn't equate to an engineering certainty, now does it?



"The Pontiac GTO was relaunched in the United States in late 2003, based on the Holden Monaro


Bingo, based does not equate to same car, same suspension geometries, epa testing, crash testing ;)



Fuel tank , suspension gemotries (need to make up the differnce in weight bias due to tank) LHD conversion, EPA conversion, Crash testing

All obvious, why do you need an engineer to tell you the obvious?


government regulations mang, its kind of a no brainer

fuel tank and revised suspension (minimally due to revised fuel tank) is a no brainer

LHD, you conced, but call it "easy"

EPA emissions testing; rigorous, sure GM are experts, but this is nessisary; and altogether very different to Encap IV... no brainer

Crash testing: every car in the US that isn't kit built, imported in numbers over 300 per year, and for show + display requires full Ann Arbor Gov. DOT crash testing, GM had modified the car to pass side saftey by including a steel torsional bar... this regulation doesn't exist in europe, uk, or austrailia.. again, a no brainer


actually, no; the only 5.7's that had this tank were the US built 5.7 GTO; and none others.

This is the same thing that's been said for the last 4 pages, yet you fail to grasp on this simple item... I can't figure out why. :|

I guess I never once mentioned the fuel tank, did i?

[Al Fucking Gore]

Who is Al Gore?

:ninja:

[dm_h_2007]

Not me senior...

And I made my point with rhd lhd... Your lack of physics knowledge and the fact that we all pointed out the gas tank to you 3 pages ago not with standing. Go back and read both me and Nfinitys first posts. We both mention the gas tank movement, we just don't in your words, provide link. Why? It is common knowledge.

You NEVER ONCE said that all the 5.7s in the USA had the fuel tank over the axel!! You were trying to claim the very opposite over and over.

And again, professor, tell us which is better and why, the LHD F430 or the RHD F430? Or if one is not "better" please try to explain how they are different. :roll:

And I love the way you always come off sounding so condescending, do you have a degree in Physics? I don’t. But I have read some very good books on Quantum Physics written for the layman. I have read “Faster than Light” by Nick Herbert, “The Strange Story of Quantum” by Benesh Hoffmann, and my personal favorite, this book changed the way I look at the world and life, “Quantum Physics: Illusion or Reality?” by Alastair Rae!

[dm_h_2007]

basically the same car does not equate to the "same" car. for differences on the suspension set up, it was written about in 2004 when the GTO came to the US; i'm sure there are some magazine scans of it somewhere.

still, where do you think 8,000,000$ was spent on bringng the car over here? certainly not soley on the fuel tank ;)

5 links of amature information doesn't equate to an engineering certainty, now does it?



"The Pontiac GTO was relaunched in the United States in late 2003, based on the Holden Monaro


Bingo, based does not equate to same car, same suspension geometries, epa testing, crash testing ;)



Fuel tank , suspension gemotries (need to make up the differnce in weight bias due to tank) LHD conversion, EPA conversion, Crash testing

All obvious, why do you need an engineer to tell you the obvious?


government regulations mang, its kind of a no brainer

fuel tank and revised suspension (minimally due to revised fuel tank) is a no brainer

LHD, you conced, but call it "easy"

EPA emissions testing; rigorous, sure GM are experts, but this is nessisary; and altogether very different to Encap IV... no brainer

Crash testing: every car in the US that isn't kit built, imported in numbers over 300 per year, and for show + display requires full Ann Arbor Gov. DOT crash testing, GM had modified the car to pass side saftey by including a steel torsional bar... this regulation doesn't exist in europe, uk, or austrailia.. again, a no brainer


actually, no; the only 5.7's that had this tank were the US built 5.7 GTO; and none others.

This is the same thing that's been said for the last 4 pages, yet you fail to grasp on this simple item... I can't figure out why. :|

I guess I never once mentioned the fuel tank, did i?

Nice try but saying a bunch of general info that is true for all cars is not the same as pointing out the fuel tank issue in this particular car! The fuel tank location issue was the main point of this argument for the start and had you know that all the American 5.7s had this problem you would have said it very clearly and not mixed it in with a bunch of other crap.

I'm supposed to believe that Greywolf who did not know that the difference between the two engines was 50HP and not 80HP DID know that there were 5.7s made with the fuel tank over the rear axel in Europe but not in America!??!? LMAO yeah right!

[nthfinity]

Nice try but saying a bunch of general info that is true for all cars is not the same as pointing out the fuel tank issue in this particular car! The fuel tank location issue was the main point of this argument for the start and had you know that all the 5.7s had this problem you would have said it very clearly and not mixed it in with a bunch of other crap.[/quote]

except for the fact that GM spent that 8 million on the original 5.7 to bring it here; which is the first one that came here, which is why it had to pass all that testing, and development to pass that testing... surely there was a reason why I kept mentioning it, and the dev. for the US market, right? nothing was hidden there.

[graywolf624]

You NEVER ONCE said that all the 5.7s in the USA had the fuel tank over the axel!! You were trying to claim the very opposite over and over.
Uhh... no... Not once.. I said the 5.7 in the US had a different location of the fuel tank to the european car. Thats all I ever said. Go back and read the first page.. (the art of losing a debate, changing your opponents words)

And again, professor, tell us which is better and why, the LHD F430 or the RHD F430? Or if one is not "better" please try to explain how they are different.
See below, the concept of moving weight around the car and the effect on handling.. Try the experiment and then get back to us.

on Quantum Physics written for the layman. I have read “Faster than Light” by Nick Herbert, “The Strange Story of Quantum” by Benesh Hoffmann, and my personal favorite, this book changed the way I look at the world and life, “Quantum Physics: Illusion or Reality?” by Alastair Rae!
Quantum physics has about as much to do with engineering a car as the color of the paint man... First off, I went to an engineering school, which means some of my closest friends are now designing cars like the gto.
Second off, with the use of modeling software on the computer I have designed a race car suspension.
Third, this is simple physics. Go get your self a bag of manure that weighs 200 lbs.. Drive around.. with it in the rear right seat.. Then park and move it to the rear left... You will note a significant change in handling. The same applies to the steering.
Then theres the lengths of the steering inputs, the ability to line up the transmission correctly for the new location of the stick.. I told you all these and you just decided without a link youd ignore me.. As you will no doubtedly do again.

[graywolf624]

I'm supposed to believe that Greywolf who did not know that the difference between the two engines was 50HP and not 80HP DID know that there were 5.7s made with the fuel tank over the rear axel in Europe but not in America!??!? LMAO yeah right!
Yes you are.. Why.. Cause the first thing every article about the 5.7L gto said when it came out was that the fuel tank was different then all the other countries the car was being sold. It was screamed from every article when the car was launched. Its much easier to remember something like that when its pointed out a million times then 2 bhp numbers you read about, the first of which was over 3 years ago.

[dm_h_2007]

Nice try but saying a bunch of general info that is true for all cars is not the same as pointing out the fuel tank issue in this particular car! The fuel tank location issue was the main point of this argument for the start and had you know that all the 5.7s had this problem you would have said it very clearly and not mixed it in with a bunch of other crap.

except for the fact that GM spent that 8 million on the original 5.7 to bring it here; which is the first one that came here, which is why it had to pass all that testing, and development to pass that testing... surely there was a reason why I kept mentioning it, and the dev. for the US market, right? nothing was hidden there.[/quote]

Considering how long we have been arguing, no you didn't know it! Give me a break! You would have just said it, and understandingly so. You would have said something to the effect of "You are right that some of the European 5.7s were better because of the fuel tank locations. But by the time of the USA release that was changed for safty reasons".

Now that "Al Fucking Gore" (and I dont care if that is one of your alternate IDS or not) supplied a link, which if you look back was all I was ever asking for!, you are trying to say you knew it all along.

[dm_h_2007]

I'm supposed to believe that Greywolf who did not know that the difference between the two engines was 50HP and not 80HP DID know that there were 5.7s made with the fuel tank over the rear axel in Europe but not in America!??!? LMAO yeah right!
Yes you are.. Why.. Cause the first thing every article about the 5.7L gto said when it came out was that the fuel tank was different then all the other countries the car was being sold. It was screamed from every article when the car was launched. Its much easier to remember something like that when its pointed out a million times then 2 bhp numbers you read about, the first of which was over 3 years ago.

BULLSHIT!

[graywolf624]

Considering how long we have been arguing, no you didn't know it! Give me a break! You would have just said it, and understandingly so. You would have said something to the effect of "You are right that some of the European 5.7s were better because of the fuel tank locations. But by the time of the USA release that was changed for safty reasons
And you still don't have it right. The European 5.7s didnt change to the US fuel tank till at least a year later. And yes we did know. As I pointed out it was in every article about the then new gto you could read.

[graywolf624]

Considering how long we have been arguing, no you didn't know it! Give me a break! You would have just said it, and understandingly so. You would have said something to the effect of "You are right that some of the European 5.7s were better because of the fuel tank locations. But by the time of the USA release that was changed for safty reasons
And you still don't have it right. The European 5.7s didnt change to the US fuel tank till at least a year after US launch (read the post dates March 2005). And yes we did know. As I pointed out it was in every article about the then new gto you could read. In fact, Im about 90 percent sure if I dared you to find a review of the 04 gto you couldnt find a journalist review that didnt mention it was the only one with the funky gas tank.

Yeah bullshit. We both just pointed out the fuel tank difference to you cause we had nothing better to do.

[dm_h_2007]

You NEVER ONCE said that all the 5.7s in the USA had the fuel tank over the axel!! You were trying to claim the very opposite over and over.
Uhh... no... Not once.. I said the 5.7 in the US had a different location of the fuel tank to the european car. Thats all I ever said. Go back and read the first page.. (the art of losing a debate, changing your opponents words)

And again, professor, tell us which is better and why, the LHD F430 or the RHD F430? Or if one is not "better" please try to explain how they are different.
See below, the concept of moving weight around the car and the effect on handling.. Try the experiment and then get back to us.

on Quantum Physics written for the layman. I have read “Faster than Light” by Nick Herbert, “The Strange Story of Quantum” by Benesh Hoffmann, and my personal favorite, this book changed the way I look at the world and life, “Quantum Physics: Illusion or Reality?” by Alastair Rae!
Quantum physics has about as much to do with engineering a car as the color of the paint man... First off, I went to an engineering school, which means some of my closest friends are now designing cars like the gto.
Second off, with the use of modeling software on the computer I have designed a race car suspension.
Third, this is simple physics. Go get your self a bag of manure that weighs 200 lbs.. Drive around.. with it in the rear right seat.. Then park and move it to the rear left... You will note a significant change in handling. The same applies to the steering.
Then theres the lengths of the steering inputs, the ability to line up the transmission correctly for the new location of the stick.. I told you all these and you just decided without a link youd ignore me.. As you will no doubtedly do again.

LMAO!! You went “an engineering school"??? But didn’t get an engineering degree?? How cute!! So now that makes you an engineering expert?

Let’s see, I went to UMASS in Boston and took night classes at Harvard in Philosophy, wow just think of all the subjects I'm an expert on outside of my business degree just because I went to those schools and had friends in those majors!!

Dude that’s like one of the most pathetic things I have ever read!!!

[nthfinity]

Nice try but saying a bunch of general info that is true for all cars is not the same as pointing out the fuel tank issue in this particular car! The fuel tank location issue was the main point of this argument for the start and had you know that all the 5.7s had this problem you would have said it very clearly and not mixed it in with a bunch of other crap.

except for the fact that GM spent that 8 million on the original 5.7 to bring it here; which is the first one that came here, which is why it had to pass all that testing, and development to pass that testing... surely there was a reason why I kept mentioning it, and the dev. for the US market, right? nothing was hidden there.

Considering how long we have been arguing, no you didn't know it! Give me a break! You would have just said it, and understandingly so. You would have said something to the effect of "You are right that some of the European 5.7s were better because of the fuel tank locations. But by the time of the USA release that was changed for safty reasons".

Now that "Al Fucking Gore" (and I dont care if that is one of your alternate IDS or not) supplied a link, which if you look back was all I was ever asking for!, you are trying to say you knew it all along.[/quote]

sorry mate, but I don't have time to post as other people; but i can let somebody know whats going on, a small benefit of being at JW for 3 years :)

BTW, I hope you stick around, and tollerate all the wonderful arguments! :D

[graywolf624]

LMAO!! You went “an engineering school"??? But didn’t get an engineering degree?? How cute!! So now that makes you an engineering expert?
I never said I was an expert. I said it means I know my shit. Get a degree from an engineering school you are required to take engineering classes. I have a computer science degree you jackass (along with a mba and a minor in economics). This still means I had to take advanced physics, unlike a humanity class they don't just let you off the hook in a real engineering school. Maybe if I was on the management train. It also means when I set to designing my camaros suspension I had my physics major college roomate sit down with me and help in the design. I used a full blown modeling program and corner weighted the entire damn car. Trust me, I know a change in position of key items in a car will effect handling.

[dm_h_2007]

Considering how long we have been arguing, no you didn't know it! Give me a break! You would have just said it, and understandingly so. You would have said something to the effect of "You are right that some of the European 5.7s were better because of the fuel tank locations. But by the time of the USA release that was changed for safty reasons
And you still don't have it right. The European 5.7s didnt change to the US fuel tank till at least a year after US launch (read the post dates March 2005). And yes we did know. As I pointed out it was in every article about the then new gto you could read. In fact, Im about 90 percent sure if I dared you to find a review of the 04 gto you couldnt find a journalist review that didnt mention it was the only one with the funky gas tank.

Yeah bullshit. We both just pointed out the fuel tank difference to you cause we had nothing better to do.

I'm fully aware of the dates involved and tht the USA never recived any of the none-flawed fule tank models now that I have read that article. Again if 90% of the articles you read about the GTO at lanched zeroed in on that problem and you knew it all along, you would have easily found dozens of link when I asked for them over and aver. And lets not forget that when you guys were talking about the fule tanks you were trying to argue that the American 6.0s DID NOT have this problem!!

I can quote you too -

"Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it. "

THE USA MODELS DO NOT HAVE A FUEL TANK IN A DIFFERENT LOCATION FROM THE EUROPEAN MODELS AFTER LATE 2003! So this is all bullshit and proof you had no idea that it was only the early European 2003 GTO's that didnt have this problem at this point in the conversation!!

[graywolf624]

"Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it. "

THE USA MODELS DO NOT HAVE A FUEL TANK IN A DIFFERENT LOCATION FOR THE EUROPEAN MODELS AFTER LATE 2003! So this is all bullshit and proof you had no idea tht it was only the early 2003 GTOs that didnt have this problem in the USA or anywhere else!
Actually you still dont get it.. ITs not late 2003.. Its late 2004. And actually I did know this. Why didnt I post a link.. Because I was too busy explaining to you the concepts of corner weighting as it relates to rhd and lhd.. And you were too busy ignorign anything I said to even think about our comments about gas tanks. Had you asked I would have given you specifics. Again its common knowledge..
As you said even top gear touched on it..

And lets not forget that when you guys were talking about the fule tanks you were trying to argue that the American 6.0s DID NOT have this problem!!
Nope.. never once said that.. In fact, do a search here on the gto. Youll find I commented on just this particular decision in the 5.7Liter back a full year before it was even released to the public. I said the American car had the problem, the euro didnt.. Referining to the 5.7. I did not denote years, though obviously were talking about a top gear review of an early 5.7.

[dm_h_2007]

[quote]"Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it. "

THE USA MODELS DO NOT HAVE A FUEL TANK IN A DIFFERENT LOCATION FOR THE EUROPEAN MODELS AFTER LATE 2003! So this is all bullshit and proof you had no idea tht it was only the early 2003 GTOs that didnt have this problem in the USA or anywhere else!
Actually you still dont get it.. ITs not late 2003.. Its late 2004. And actually I did know this. Why didnt I post a link.. Because I was too busy explaining to you the concepts of corner weighting as it relates to rhd and lhd.. And you were too busy ignorign anything I said to even think about our comments about gas tanks. Had you asked I would have given you specifics. Again its common knowledge..
As you said even top gear touched on it..

And lets not forget that when you guys were talking about the fule tanks you were trying to argue that the American 6.0s DID NOT have this problem!!

Nope you are not going to W Bush me here. That was not an explanation. Answer the question. Why did you say "Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it. " ??

When it’s not true. The American GTO does NOT have a different fuel tank location from other markets at all, only different from the very early Ausi Monaros. So why did you say it? That is a incorrect statement.

[graywolf624]

Nope you are not going to W Bush me here. That was not an explanation. Answer the question. Why did you say "Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it. "

When it’s not true. The American GTO does NOT have a different fuel tank location from other markets at all, only different from the very early Ausi Monaros. So why did you say it? That is a incorrect statement.
Actually.. It is true bud.

The American GTO 2004 has a different gas tank then the same years UK Vauxhall Monaro as well. Since we are talking about the 2004 American GTO as compared to the 2006 American GTO.. And you are trying to use the 5.7 L Vauxhall Monaro versus the 6.0L Vauxhall Monaro VXR as a proxy. It is a perfectly true statement. Care to argue no changes in handling/weight occurred between the 2004- 2006 Monaro 5.7L other then the gas tank.. Id sure like to take that bet too. A 2006 5.7L gto doesnt exist for comparison. There is none. Hence the car in 2004, the comparable car, being different from the same year car in Europe or Australia.. Kinda kills your arguement.

[nthfinity]

A 2006 5.7L gto doesnt exist for comparison. There is none.

strange enough, the 2003 GTO tips the scales in total the same as the 2006 GTO (us only... no idea about europe/aussi)

[graywolf624]

^^According to the link I posted 3 pages ago they redid the Vauxhall for 2005 with bigger brakes plus improved suspension
Not to mention the addition of 19 inch wheels.

Obviously with the same 5.7L engine the 2005 car is going to handle significantly different then the 2004 5.7l in the euro market. So essentially we'v negated all methods of comparison UK to US for 5.7 vs 6.0

[dm_h_2007]

Nope you are not going to W Bush me here. That was not an explanation. Answer the question. Why did you say "Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it. "

When it’s not true. The American GTO does NOT have a different fuel tank location from other markets at all, only different from the very early Ausi Monaros. So why did you say it? That is a incorrect statement.
Actually.. It is true bud.

The American GTO 2004 has a different gas tank then the same years UK Vauxhall Monaro as well. Since we are talking about the 2004 American GTO as compared to the 2006 American GTO.. And you are trying to use the 5.7 L Vauxhall Monaro versus the 6.0L Vauxhall Monaro VXR as a proxy. It is a perfectly true statement. Care to argue no changes in handling/weight occurred between the 2004- 2006 Monaro 5.7L other then the gas tank.. Id sure like to take that bet too. A 2006 5.7L gto doesnt exist for comparison. There is none.

Thank you. I already conceded that I was under the false impression that ALL the American 5.7s (2004) were the same as the mid 2003 European Monaros that did not have the fuel tank location issue. I know that’s wrong from Al Fucking Gores link.

All GTO’s sold in the USA have this problem.

But all the Monaro/GTOs, 5.7 or 6.0, sold after 2004 anywhere in the world have this same fuel tank location issue.

And like I said the 5.7 LS1 is still more desirable to modders than the 6.0 LS2, which I said on the fist page.

[graywolf624]

But all the Monaro/GTOs, 5.7 or 6.0, sold after 2004 anywhere in the world have this same fuel tank location issue.
But the point is.. There were no 5.7L sold in the US after 2004. And for 2005 they changed the brakes, suspension, and any number of other things.
Which means you cant compare the US 5.7L 2004 to how the 5.7L 2006 in the UK stands up to the 6.0 in the Uk. IT doesnt work.

[dm_h_2007]

But all the Monaro/GTOs, 5.7 or 6.0, sold after 2004 anywhere in the world have this same fuel tank location issue.
But the point is.. There were no 5.7L sold in the US after 2004. And for 2005 they changed the brakes, suspension, and any number of other things.
Which means you cant compare the US 5.7L 2004 to how the 5.7L 2006 in the UK stands up to the 6.0 in the Uk. IT doesnt work.

Well yes and no. How many times do I need to say I learned that there were none of the "good" 5.7 fuel tank config models sold in the USA from Al Fucking Gore's post? I was WRONG about this!! I fully admit this!

But I don;t agree with " brakes, suspension, and any number of other things". Other than the engine there were no suspension changes from the 5.7 to the 6.0! The GTO board thread you linked said that very clearly! Other than the LS2 the only difference between the 5.7 and the 6.0 is the brakes!

[TopGearNL]

But all the Monaro/GTOs, 5.7 or 6.0, sold after 2004 anywhere in the world have this same fuel tank location issue.
But the point is.. There were no 5.7L sold in the US after 2004. And for 2005 they changed the brakes, suspension, and any number of other things.
Which means you cant compare the US 5.7L 2004 to how the 5.7L 2006 in the UK stands up to the 6.0 in the Uk. IT doesnt work.

Well yes and no. How many times do I need to say I learned that there were none of the "good" 5.7 fuel tank config models sold in the USA from Al Fucking Gore's post? I was WRONG about this!! I fully admit this!

But I don;t agree with " brakes, suspension, and any number of other things". Other than the engine there were no suspension changes from the 5.7 to the 6.0! The GTO board thread you linked said that very clearly! Other than the LS2 the only difference between the 5.7 and the 6.0 is the brakes!

Well Vauxhall did fiddle with the suspension when they made the Vxr 6.0 Litre

Or is this about the GTO?

[graywolf624]

*Sigh.. Read above man.. Im not talking about the difference between the 5.7 and 6.0..

Im talking about the difference between the euro 5.7 in 2004 and the euro 5.7 in 2005. If you admit the early year 5.7 werent the same.. And no US 5.7 existed after 2004.. And the euro 5.7 was redone in 2005.. That means there is no euro equivelent to the 2004 gto to compare too. Even without the numerous other differences we've pointed out, the one car isn't going to have the gas tank in the same spot, the other isn't going to be suspended or braked the same.

the 6.0 is the breaks!
Its brakes.

[dm_h_2007]

*Sigh.. Read above man.. Im not talking about the difference between the 5.7 and 6.0..

Im talking about the difference between the euro 5.7 in 2004 and the euro 5.7 in 2005. If you admit the early year 5.7 werent the same.. And no US 5.7 existed after 2004.. And the euro 5.7 was redone in 2005.. That means there is no euro equivelent to the 2004 gto to compare too.

the 6.0 is the breaks!
Its brakes.

Yeah who said anything about a euro equivalent? Im talking about the Ausi 2003 GTO that Clarkson tested, and I assumed was available in at least some other countries at that time besides AUS. Going by Clarkson’s column and James May's and Richard Hammand's comments in Top Gear episodes about the “new” Vauxhall Monaro in the UK not being as good as the “old” one because of the fuel tank issue you would have to surmise that they sold that “good” Monora at least for a time in England!

But if you are now trying to claim that the only place the “good” 5.7s were sold was in Australia?? I would have to say prove it and also write Top Gear and tell them they were wrong.

And pointing out typos to me is pretty low. I know how to spell brakes as I’m sure you know and I am typing a lot and very fast and getting tired. That’s a pretty lame thing to bring up.

[TopGearNL]

*Sigh.. Read above man.. Im not talking about the difference between the 5.7 and 6.0..

Im talking about the difference between the euro 5.7 in 2004 and the euro 5.7 in 2005. If you admit the early year 5.7 werent the same.. And no US 5.7 existed after 2004.. And the euro 5.7 was redone in 2005.. That means there is no euro equivelent to the 2004 gto to compare too. Even without the numerous other differences we've pointed out, the one car isn't going to have the gas tank in the same spot, the other isn't going to be suspended or braked the same.

the 6.0 is the breaks!
Its brakes.

It wasn't a comment towards you Graywolf. :|

[graywolf624]

But if you are now trying to claim that the only place the “good” 5.7s were sold was in Australia?? I would have to say prove it and also write Top Gear and tell them they were wrong.
No. My claim is you cant compare the 04 gto to any other car around the world. It has no direct comparsion. Meaning you can't say whether the 5.7L was a better handler then the 6.0 based on some other countries car.