mclaren F1's do handle badly - proof!

[nthfinity]

http://www.dpccars.com/car-movies/07-27-06pageMclarenF1.htm

in the second video; you can clearly see the car just lets loose w/out warning; as he tries time and time again to hold a slide...

BTW, im sure the F1 fan base will love the video :P

[pterps]

I am sure it has nothing to do with the handling of the car and everything with the handling of the driver. Looks like he really has no idea what to do with the car, and don't forget this is his first test drive with the car, so he doesn't have an idea how the car is going to react.
And his wife or GF is really annoying. :twisted:

[nthfinity]

^^^

a typical fan boy responce "it cant be the car, its the driver"

in responce to that, look at the way he handles the car, he has some serious driving experience... the speed of his reflexes is very quick, his downshifting; the way he grasps the wheel.

but go ahead, and think its just the driver, or the weight distro with a passenger.

what you see in this video is the exact same thing i've been talking about for quite some time; with direct contact with a licenced racer who has one.

seems like too much coincidence to me 8)

[LotusGT1]

Yes, and Tiff Needell, a known and experienced driver, loved the handling of the F1. He got amazingly excited when driving that car. At the Pistonheads forum there's an owner of the F1, simply adoring it. The character might not be to everybodies taste, but claiming the F1 is a bad handling car from such video is kinda funny. You see the driver in this video just slams on the gas without any attempt to get some grip. Doesn't show too professional. I can't see if the track is moist, or whatever the circumstances are....

[nickthaskater]

That guy seemed to have a bit more talent than your average driver, to put it on him is kind of silly in my opinion. As for him "trying time and time again to hold a slide", I don't really think that was the case, it looked like he was just out having fun and pushing the car, and scaring the shit and piss out of his girl haha.

[nthfinity]

~lotus...

ah, another fanboy responce :P

its so painfully obvious; but go ahead and think the way you do... but no other 600 hp/ 3000 lb. (or lesS) car i've seen behaves like that even with a judicsous throttle

~nick

he eventually learned that he couldn't... yet even after spinning some time after she says "no spinning, i hate spinning" he still tries to do a roll-on drift; and it goes right around.

the slides he tried at the beginnning were snap oversteer, then severe understeer...

[pterps]

^^^

a typical fan boy responce "it cant be the car, its the driver"

in responce to that, look at the way he handles the car, he has some serious driving experience... the speed of his reflexes is very quick, his downshifting; the way he grasps the wheel.

but go ahead, and think its just the driver, or the weight distro with a passenger.

what you see in this video is the exact same thing i've been talking about for quite some time; with direct contact with a licenced racer who has one.

seems like too much coincidence to me 8)

I am not a hughe fan of the F1, so it's not typical fan boy response. As I said to me it looks like the problem is the driver and not the car. And I can imagine it is because it's his first testdrive. And you don't hear me saying I would do better when driving this car! :D
And please don't take it up too personal, I don't attack you :wink:

[nthfinity]

^^^^^^ oh trust me, i dont take it personal; i've just finally found some proof to back up my claims and i'll make damn sure to use it hehe :o 8) :D

[JoeHahn]

It does look as if there is a severe lack of response from the steering wheel while trying to hold the slides and the violent way it flicks the car in the wrong direction. I know alot of people tend to have problems with high horsepower cars but in this case it may be the high horsepower car :wink:

insane acceleration through 2nd and 3rd gear however

[5vz-fe]

I don't give a shit how bad it handles...why??...coz that bitch is just so annoying I closed that video.

[nthfinity]

some proof..

this is a new mclaren owner trying to scare/showoff for his anoying ass girlfriend on an extremely uneven surface. this dude is far from professional. he just slams the gas without any finesse. and since when are macca's designed to do drift style donuts? as lotus said, Tiff's review back in the day is all i need to see to know that this is one of the greatest cars ever made.

yes, it is some proof; you just choose to look at it from a biased eye. If the video showed something different, i still would've posted, and said.... "I was wrong, look how well this handles!"

[nickthaskater]

I really don't think it's anything conclusive... I doubt the McLaren is a car you can just jump right into and go off and pull some D1-esque drifts for miles, which is what it sounds like you expect him to be able to do.

[nthfinity]

no, of course not D1 drifts.....

first, it doesnt have the lock to do that... but I'm very sure that every other supercar out there from teh Jag XJ220, Vector W8, Pagani crapola F, Enzo, CGT, Ford GT, F430, etc. etc. all are able to give warning where the limit is, and let you control the car with a slide; and catch.

even the SLR you could run the slide.... still with quite some wheel effort.

which is my point.

a car where you can feel the limit better allows for approaching those limits more kandidly. on a track, if you cannot feel it, you might be losing 2-3-4 seconds per lap because you dont know whats going to happen if you stradle the limits.

so many people claim they want a better handling car; not some "american garbage" or whatever that is "only fast in a straight line".... so they take their GTi over a Z06, or such a car... well ,clearly you would want that GTi over the Mclaren F1 (you as in those people)


on an extremely uneven surface. this dude is far from professional. he just slams the gas without any finesse.


how much more even do you want it? there was only one section where you could hear/see bumps, and that was when he was on the straightaway high speed run.

and finesse on the gas, i urge you to watch the video again, he starts right off trying that; just to get pwned by the handling of that car....

minor snap, catch, throttle.... but its suddenly heavy understeer.
minor snap, big snap, catch, around.... rinse repeate

[nickthaskater]

Dude, this was (IIRC) his first test drive of the car, I doubt anyone could master such a machine on their first try, let alone on a rather uneven surface as he was on with a screaming bitch beside him.

That's the point you seem to be missing. This video is far from an accurate respresentation of what the car can and cannot do.

[nthfinity]

^^^
yet other people (EG Jeremy Clarkson) are able to slide the CGT on his first try... and many others with other exotic supercars with similar, or more power.

[nickthaskater]

His first try? Man, it's a TV show, of course they're not going to show you his failed attempts. He's lost control in cars a hell of a lot less powerful than a CGT before.

If you want to go by TV shows, then the McLaren must be a pretty damn good car, since Tiff adores it, and he had no problem running the shit out of it.

[Fleischmann]

Women..hahaha..."look there orange is also on the steering wheel, how cute". I would hardly call this a benchmark test, I prefer to believe Tiff and other professional drivers opinions then just by watching a video of ana amtauer driving it. In the right hands it would do better, though that is not the sole purpose of the car.

[nthfinity]

nick

tif never once tested its handling limits FYI... the goose bumps from him came when ever he came on throttle, which i've never once doubted the mighty M power engine ;)

and i just said "for example".... there are others i know, and have seen do such crazy things on thier first try... sure they spin too.... but on thier first day/ few hours they've got a serious hang of the car in such ideal testing conditions

[5vz-fe]

Just in case ppl fogot Tiff's review :wink:

YouTube

[nickthaskater]

Just in case ppl fogot Tiff's review :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJU8OPNzfOk
He also drove one on a track for Fifth Gear's "Greatest Cars" show (along with the F40 and Modena), which is the segment I was referring to.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1067798682779462372

And PS. Tiff did push pretty damn hard through the corners in that review 5vz posted, and he made several comments about the handling as well.

[nthfinity]

Just in case ppl fogot Tiff's review :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJU8OPNzfOk

I've you've ever been to a track, you can tell he's not pushing it, hence my comment. running the limit of adhesion on a track is quite a bit noisier ;) BTW trackdays are fun!

...... and notice when he says oversteer, the car really isn't exactly sidways more then the guy in the video could successfully get.

the ending sideways bit was very twitchy.. but succesful, but still not as impressive as his /others sidways work in many many other cars. the balance on the basic F1 just isn't htere.... the LM is likely different...

[PaulGT2164]

hrmm.

have any of you actually driven one?

nope. so this whole argument is pointless

lets not also mention the fact that the car is old, very old in supercar years, and technology.

the macca is a awesome car, even today, and it was way ahead of its time. the fact it was a major automotive milestone (as far as super/hypercars go) is undeniable.

tiff seemed to like it. but i havent had any experience with it so im not gonna say either way.

its a great car, it was then, still is, but lets not forget its age, and forget the fact no one in this thread has driven one, so honestly no one here can make even a guess on how it handles.

[JoeHahn]

The car that Tiff drives is also the XP4 prototypes, not the full-on road car. The dive and squat is quite alarming on the track, more so than you'd see on something like a Boxster or a V8 Vantage.

[r2r]

Handles badly! what?? Based on this video!!

Are we being serious here?

All this video is showing is the guy having fun with the car nothing more nothing less!

I bet if we went back to the year 1994 when this car was released, we wouldn't be having this conversation on how supposedly bad it handles, because we might have forgot how far we have gotten in car performance technology. Being so critical about how the handling of a car like this is not what exoticars are about!

To me its about 3 things; innovation, looks, and power.

And this car succeeds in all three!

[davide]

Handles badly might be a harsh word to say...

hard to handle good might be a better way saying it! I'd too have trouble hadnling a 600bhp supercar...

[yg60m]

The car that Tiff drives is also the XP4 prototypes, not the full-on road car. The dive and squat is quite alarming on the track, more so than you'd see on something like a Boxster or a V8 Vantage.

True it dives and squats but it's Tiff's favorite Supercar anyway :wink: And I doubt that he would love a bad handling car ...

[nickthaskater]

The one he drives in the Greatest Cars clip is a regular production F1, albeit with the high downforce kit.

[jadeddjay]

no, of course not D1 drifts.....

first, it doesnt have the lock to do that... but I'm very sure that every other supercar out there from teh Jag XJ220, Vector W8, Pagani crapola F, Enzo, CGT, Ford GT, F430, etc. etc. all are able to give warning where the limit is, and let you control the car with a slide; and catch.

even the SLR you could run the slide.... still with quite some wheel effort.

which is my point.


the only way to possibly make this point regarding the video is to see one of him driving each one of the cars you mentioned and try to do the same things with those cars

even then if he drives another car better.. then it suits him better but it doesnt mean that it handles better than all others.

yould you NOT buy a car based on incar footage of this ass driving with his annoying wife? i definitly wouldnt. nor will i form any opinions based on it.

like its been said before this argument is pointless and there is no proof about anything... no proof about the handling of the car, his abilities, nor intentions in the video

anyway... whats the story behind this dude anyway.. did he win the lottery or soemthing? lol.. that will me one day >: )

hopefully <: \

[nickthaskater]

According to someone who knows him personally on fchat: "he is the son of the man who wrote the protocall for the ATM machines. Dan "aquired" (INTERESTING STORY)the company which went public and whalla".

He doesn't own the F1 anymore either, he's now got a Zonda S, on top of several other high-end ubercars.

[jadeddjay]

lucky guy, thats awesome

one day... one day.. lol

[nickthaskater]

Edited my post ^

Turns out there's another Dan Kennedy who happens to be quite a bit older haha, so yea, hence my earlier mistake.

[Shinigami]

A video clip cannot accurately convey how a car drives, IMO. Whilst it can give a notion and provide the viewer with an idea, I'd much rather reserve such comments until I've had a go in one myself (well, here's hoping).

[rave426]

Handles badly might be a harsh word to say...

hard to handle good might be a better way saying it! I'd too have trouble hadnling a 600bhp supercar...

Thats the answer I was looking for.

I think u got this one scrwed up Nth. Yes I am a fan of the F1, because of the engineering aspect, but I am also an unbiased person.

I cant remember but didnt the F1 win some LM races back in the day. How many good LM race cars do you know that were based of off bad handling road cars?

I think the F1 is just a handful to drive, not a bad handling car. I dont think anyone on this board as seen videos of people consistently hold a Carrera GT in a slide. Not just a tail flick........ A slide. I dont see anyone calling it a bad handling car.....just a handful to drive.

I dont think the F1 is the best handling car but to say its bad is terrible assumption. Apparently its twitchy.....but so is the Carrara GT, apprarently its unforgiving at the limits.....so is the Carrera GT.

But for some reason we love these twitchy, unforgiving cars and personally I would rather have an F1 over any supercar ever developed......with the Zonda F and Ferrari F50 coming in a close 2-3 :D

[RC45]

I cant remember but didnt the F1 win some LM races back in the day. How many good LM race cars do you know that were based of off bad handling road cars?

They cahnged the aerodynamics significantly to win that one ;)

[LotusGT1]

~lotus...

ah, another fanboy responce :P

its so painfully obvious; but go ahead and think the way you do... but no other 600 hp/ 3000 lb. (or lesS) car i've seen behaves like that even with a judicsous throttle


Your "proof" is mediocre at best. A bad quality video of some random guy (ok, he seems to know what he's doing) sliding all over the place. I take Tiff's assessment over that one. I'd take the assessment from an actual owner (posting at Pistonheads) over yours, sorry. Like I said, you can see crap in the video you posted. How's the surface, what are the conditions, etc?

I'm sure the F1 is quite a bitch to master...but that doesn't make it a bad handling car. It's an early 90s car, of course it is not as polished as the SLR, Veyron, CGT etc. 20 years of development will always show. It would be sad if current supercars wouldn't have improved so much. But for its time it was a masterpiece, and it's still impressive today.

I'm not the one with the fanboy response here...your topic smells from your dislike for this car ;) I once saw a video of a guy crashing his F50 at pathetic low speeds. Must be a bad handling car :twisted:

[nickthaskater]

I cant remember but didnt the F1 win some LM races back in the day. How many good LM race cars do you know that were based of off bad handling road cars?

They cahnged the aerodynamics significantly to win that one ;)
F1 LM ;)

You can also get the downforce package on the regular F1 as well.

[jorge]

http://www.jabbasworld.net/photopost/data/500/stfu_vader.jpg

It´s natural, he is just applying too much power when turning in a damp surface. The video doesn´t prove anything.

A regular car will not do that, but a car with 627hp and a weight of little more that a ton....

[StanAE86]

That's Dan Kennedy in the video...and some stupid GF.

As much as I like reading nth vs. everyone else :lol: and would love to play devil's advocate, I gotta' agree with the masses here...Dan doesn't know what he's doing.

The problem he's having is maintaining the slip angle of the car. He's nailing the throttle to break traction, but once it does, he's letting off again, causing the car to grip again. Typical beginner drift problem. So, what you're seeing is the car fighting between the threshold of grip and slip. You've got these huge rear tires on the thing, so if you want the car to slip/drift, you've got to apply a fair amount of power. Once you let off, the tires bite.

He also looks like he's adding too much steering input when he tries to break traction. By doing that, the car goes into a tight spin when it loses traction, but that's not what Dan looks like he wants. It looks like he wants to do a big donut (drift a big circle), so, he lets up on the gas to stop the spinning, in hopes that it will give him the chance to dial out steering and do a bigger donut. But when he does that, the tires bite, he doesn't have enough throttle to break the rear tires and he pushes.

I had this problem on my old...Corolla. haha. Now hear me out...drifting the AE86 was a blast. However, when I rebuilt it for high power, I had to relearn to drive the car. Dicking around in a skidpad, I had the same problems that Dan is having in the video. I would hit the accelerator and turn the steering and start pushing because I didn't have enough power to break the rear tires loose. Then, the turbo would kick in and break rear traction...but then...I would have too much steering input and the car would spin out. If I lifted on the throttle, the tires would bite again, and I would push. Dan's situation is the same, but he's being awfully rough with the throttle, rather than modulating it. If he tried harder, he could do the big drift because the motor is n/a and the power is linear and right there. Whereas I struggled at first, because of the turbo lag the car had.

In the end, nth...YOU'RE WRONG!! :wink:

Although I do think the McLaren is probably harder to drive, I don't think it's a poor handling car by any means... :wink:

Maybe he should have given me the McLaren and he could practice in the Corolla... :lol:

[dutchmasterflex]

Oh come on nth... SURE the F1 may not be the best supercar in your opinion, but you cannot just say that it doesnt handle.. I can't check the video at the moment.

And you really can't expect to drive ANY high powered car at it's limit the first time you sit in the drivers seat..

Not to mention the car isn't really setup for power sliding.. its almost along the lines of drifting an formula 1 car.


No I am not a McLaren F1 fan boy ;p

[momodels]

:shock: this is a dream :drool: :drool: Navigation looks cool too :lol: Thanks a lot for the video. :wink:

[fordgt84]

im not too keen on the F1, only thing i like about it is its engine...i saw that guy on tv once, with that same car on some car programme...bought a ferrari when he was like 20...i'd say he was just trying to scare his ''im gonna shoot u if u dont shut the f**k up" wife, but his reactions were really instinctive...anyhoo i wud've spent my money on a ford gt, 430, v8 vantage, gt 500e and a house instead of the mclaren :roll:

[StanAE86]

Well, he got the McLaren back when it came out and none of those cars were out back then, unless you're talking about the classic GT500 and not the new one that's out. The McLaren is actually quite "vintage" isn't it? :wink:

[Svensson]

Not only is this a Stan, your arguments also don't make any sense, at all. Like a lot of people said before, this is Dan Kennedy's first drive and he's just having fun and scaring his wife. Nothing more, nothing less.

By the way, what's so great about his downshifting? I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching. At one point he even locks the rear wheels while shifting down to first gear and letting out the clutch too abruptly. True, his reflexes are quick, but that alone doesn't make anyone a good driver.

http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40813

[pagani]

I have to agree with tiff when he said this good handling car.
This will slay most current supercars maby not the veyron in a straightline.
And the man in the video is just playing with his new toy and tryin it out.
:D :o

[jakaracman]

Sorry, but there's only one obvioust thing in the vid: the driver can't handle the car. His steering/throttle coordination is all wrong ...
@nthfinity: start watching tiff's review at 6tm minute, there's plenty of on the limit stuff (8:30 is most interesting).
All in all: when the driver is not on the same level as the car, interesting things happen - and people start blaming the car, usually.

[nthfinity]

oh, i've watched it many times @ every fanboy ;)

and so Dan Kenedy is just an idiot who can't drive? look at his technique.

I base my opinions on DIRECT contact with those who have driven the so called infallable F1, and those who have owned the F1.

the Bugatti EB110 dont suffer this issue, the F40 doesn't suffer this issue, the Vector W8 doesn't, the Jag XJ220 doesnt; so saying "well, its old tech by modern standards" is just stupid.

And BTW, I knew so many would disagree with this standpoint.... what suprises me is thenumber of people that seem to have switched sides.

oh, and don't believe everything you read on the Intardweb oh... and the LM is a different car, i stil say the F1 is a poor handling unbalanced car even with the LM aerokit, unless the suspension is reworked... perhaps then it behaves differently... but most F1's aren't LM's, or GTR's etc.

[nickthaskater]

lol here comes the 'intardweb' comments...

And nth, no one has said the F1 is infallable.

[StanAE86]

Having watched the video earlier today, I have to say that using the word "technique" is a stretch of the word...at least to me, as it implies some skill. I saw very little, if ANY skill in how Dan was driving in the video.

While I know there are those that say the F1 is flawed in the ways you have pointed out, I think it's a stretch to say it's a poor handling car. I think it's a likely a difficult car to drive, but like someone said earlier, so is the CGT. But it is rewarding when driven correctly.

But you know...I've never driven it, so this is all basically based on what I've read and seen. Although there weren't any problems during this ride:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/7128/M5/McLarenRide.html

But yeah yeah yeah...nth is gonna' say that's the GTR. :D

[sentra_dude]

Ok Nth, you say you have talked to owner(s) of the F1, etc...well I took it upon myself to pose this as a question to the resident F1 owner over on Pistonheads.com, probably one of the most knowledgable people about the F1 on the internet (and one who obviously has extensive experience with the car) and a very nice guy, you should ask him a question about the F1, he'll most likely answer if you aren't a dick about it. Here's what he said:

flemke,

On another forum this video has been posted as "proof" that McLaren F1's handle badly. Quoting: "you can clearly see the car just lets loose without warning; as he tries time and time again to hold a slide...".

What would be your response to that? Does the stock suspension qualify the car as having bad handling, or just flawed handling? Also, I'm wondering how easy it would be to 'drift' any 600+hp & low weight MR car on a damp runway... Thanks in advance!
I'm not the best guy to be addressing this, but I know two guys who can maintain a drift in the F1 pretty much indefinitely. (They are not owners.)
With no disrespect to the person who's driving in the video, I'm not sure that he should be one's reference point for assessing how the car handles.
I wouldn't say that the car handles badly, and, indeed, I have seen masterly drivers make it do tricks.

I think that you have it right with the word "flawed", in the following sense.
The car was intended to provide a certain combination of high speed, ride quality and comfort, grip, and handling characteristics - a particular driving and riding experience.
That resulting combination was one with which I was uncomfortable. It would not have been what I chose, and I suspect that the majority of owners who drive the cars (maybe that's two dozen-ish) would prefer something a bit different as well.
Because all one reads about is how this is the perfect car, however, perhaps these folks assume that this is the way it ought to be.

It is true that the back end can break loose without warning, but that is not in power oversteer. Rather, it is in the transition from at-or-above-the-limit understeer to near-the-limit oversteer.
In power oversteer it is fairly benign, considering that it is mid-engined with that big P-to-W ratio.

I think flemke's response means more than anyone else's since not only has he actually DRIVEN the car (unlike I'd imagine everyone in this topic), but he also OWNS one. Yes, it has flawed handling...if you've read any of what he's said about the car he doesn't claim it to be perfect...but has that kept him from saying its one of the best cars he's driven on many occasions, nope! :D

[TNT]

Nth, you aren't taking any consideration on the drivers part. you don't know anything about the driver, you ASSume that it is the car. If you look the runway is damp, he did just get it, he is out having fun, the g/f is saying don't spin (thus he is trying), listen to the throttle, etc. you can't win this battle. :wink:

[nthfinity]

Great post Sentra!

and i hope the fan boys read that post as well.

Nth, you aren't taking any consideration on the drivers part. you don't know anything about the driver, you ASSume that it is the car. If you look the runway is damp, he did just get it, he is out having fun, the g/f is saying don't spin (thus he is trying), listen to the throttle, etc. you can't win this battle. :wink:

Wrong, watch the video again, this time with your eyes open :wink:

~Also, i base my opnions on two separate owners; I've found out both have histories in racing; one a gentleman racer, the other a long history in racing.

what they have said is exactly what i have posted, and what pistonheads' flemke had mentioned above in sentra's post; so it IS the car.


I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching


OMG, welcome www.thefastandferious.net :roll: can you see his feet? thats right

Handles badly! what?? Based on this video!!

Are we being serious here?

All this video is showing is the guy having fun with the car nothing more nothing less!

I bet if we went back to the year 1994 when this car was released, we wouldn't be having this conversation on how supposedly bad it handles, because we might have forgot how far we have gotten in car performance technology. Being so critical about how the handling of a car like this is not what exoticars are about!

To me its about 3 things; innovation, looks, and power.

And this car succeeds in all three!
yeah, of course I'm as serious as what i mentioned to you before too.

If we went back to 1994, and i knew the same folks i know now, my opinion is the same.

you compare the handling of the competing supercars of that era, the F40/F50, the Vector W8, the Jaguar XJ220, the Bugatti EB110.... all didn't behave AT ALL like this. keep in mind, the F40 is a 1988 tech, the Vector is 1992 tech, the Bugatti is those same years, and the Jag had "wooden" brakes... but never once was the handling balance an issue...

how is it that McLaren couldn't make a car that light handle as well, or better then the others? its beyond my comprehension.

and you above all others should know that style is in the eye of the beholder. I dont find the F1 particularly attractive, or ugly; but rather neutral.... and i have tremendous respect for its powerplant, and liniar accelelration...

but straight line speed is not what makes a supercar a supercar... its the balance, which the F1 just doesn't have right.

[TNT]

to each his own i guess :| :P

[Svensson]

I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching


OMG, welcome www.thefastandferious.net :roll: can you see his feet? thats right

What kind of lame comment is that? :roll: You're the one that praised his excellent downshifting skills and now you're trying to be funny because you can't answer my question. What's so great about slamming the gearstick in a lower gear as he is clearly doing? Like I said, he's not even matching revs before letting out the clutch, hence the locking of the rear wheels. And you don't need to see his feet, you should be able to hear a blip of the engine when that happens, which you can't. So I ask again: What's so great about his downshifting?

This is what I call great downshifting skills:
:arrow: http://www.gscdownloads.com/leh/sebring/GT3RSatSebring.wmv
:arrow: Double Clutch Downshifts - YouTube

[rave426]

I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching


OMG, welcome www.thefastandferious.net :roll: can you see his feet? thats right

What kind of lame comment is that? :roll: You're the one that praised his excellent downshifting skills and now you're trying to be funny because you can't answer my question. What's so great about slamming the gearstick in a lower gear as he is clearly doing? Like I said, he's not even matching revs before letting out the clutch, hence the locking of the rear wheels. And you don't need to see his feet, you should be able to hear a blip of the engine when that happens, which you can't. So I ask again: What's so great about his downshifting?

This is what I call great downshifting skills:
:arrow: http://www.gscdownloads.com/leh/sebring/GT3RSatSebring.wmv
:arrow: Double Clutch Downshifts - YouTube

Ok the second video isnt all that impressive. Honestly me and and friend of mine can beat that.

But the first video........My GOD..... That is without a doubt the most impressive downshifting skills I have ever seen. I'm not going to even act like I am at that level right now. Hopefully I'll get there when I get a new car next year and get out of my "dad picked it out because i'm in school" chevy impala.
:o

If anybody actually attempts to master downshifting when givent he chance (like me) then you will know how hard it is to get that perfect rev match every time.

But this guy is flawless.........Very impressive shifting techniques.....Though it looks like he does need to work on reducing his mid corner lift off.

Anyway thats a great vid. Thanks

[nthfinity]

I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching


OMG, welcome www.thefastandferious.net :roll: can you see his feet? thats right

What kind of lame comment is that? :roll: You're the one that praised his excellent downshifting skills and now you're trying to be funny because you can't answer my question. What's so great about slamming the gearstick in a lower gear as he is clearly doing? Like I said, he's not even matching revs before letting out the clutch, hence the locking of the rear wheels. And you don't need to see his feet, you should be able to hear a blip of the engine when that happens, which you can't. So I ask again: What's so great about his downshifting?

This is what I call great downshifting skills:
:arrow: http://www.gscdownloads.com/leh/sebring/GT3RSatSebring.wmv
:arrow: Double Clutch Downshifts - YouTube

anybody who mentions dubble clutching 95% has no idea what it is; what its benefits are, and where its uses are.

dubble clutching IS NOT used in driving a car, driving a car hard, driving a race car; unless you are so-called dubble clutching based on the FAST and the Ferious movies.

rev matching? i do see some rev matching; albiet, not at high rpm ;)

[5vz-fe]

Martin Brundle review of Macca F1
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8373681072916073474

A great turn in to the corner and the nose of the car goes in well, but mid corner, the steering gets a bit heavy and dead, that was a disappointment. On the exit the traction was superb and the general balace of the car, understeer and oversteer was just what I wanted, but the brakes was a major disappointment...just couldn't hold a candle to the ones on the Enzo.

The video has all the cars you compare with the Macca with, and the Macca F1 win out.

Mika also choose Macca, but of course, I am sure u will say he's biased.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1251269809245339526

[rave426]

^^ Double clutching is what big-rigs use to upshift isnt it. :?

I heard it once but really am not sure since i have never needed to use it.

[5vz-fe]

Double clutching is the days where trans has no syncros..

[nthfinity]

and notice, that car IS NOT a 'standard' F1... and, he is a former F1 pilot, where lightning reflexes have long been part of his game...

also, the Bugatti seems to handle equally well, the F40 does, the XJ220 does as well based on his own verbal acount.... where he praises the other cars handling

basically saying 'the bugatti will oversteer over a crest' and the 'xj220 will get a heavy steering unexpectedly'

but def. notice this car is NOT the same F1 that has no real benefit aero package like this....

was this car a LM, or aerokited? it does look lower then a standard F1 too...

[Svensson]

anybody who mentions dubble clutching 95% has no idea what it is; what its benefits are, and where its uses are.

dubble clutching IS NOT used in driving a car, driving a car hard, driving a race car; unless you are so-called dubble clutching based on the FAST and the Ferious movies.

rev matching? i do see some rev matching; albiet, not at high rpm ;)I am perfectly aware of what double de-clutching is and what it is used for, otherwise I would not mention the term. Whether or not it is really useful in daily driving is an entirely different discussion, but fact is that it's the most pure and complex way of downshifting and it's the nicest way to treat a gearbox. My point is that it shows skill, that's why I mentioned it in the first place.

I'm not saying the guy can't drive, I just think his downshifting is nothing to write home about. It's nothing more then average plus he's locking up the rear wheels (no rev-matching).

But back to the main topic: You mentioned some interesting points, but I'm still far from convinced the F1 is a bad handling car. Especially judging from a video of a guy who's just having some fun and not seriously attempting to balance the car in any way. :P

[Svensson]

^^ Double clutching is what big-rigs use to upshift isnt it. :?

I heard it once but really am not sure since i have never needed to use it.No, double clutching is what you saw in the second video I just posted. Combined with heel-and-toe, it has 2 functions. It saves the synchromeshes of your gears and smooths out the downshift, as there's no jerk when you release the clutch.

[5vz-fe]

and notice, that car IS NOT a 'standard' F1... and, he is a former F1 pilot, where lightning reflexes have long been part of his game...

but def. notice this car is NOT the same F1 that has no real benefit aero package like this....

was this car a LM, or aerokited? it does look lower then a standard F1 too...

Just in case ppl are confused by the different versions of the 100 Macca
YouTube

This is Jackie Stewarts view
Interview with Jackie stewart - YouTube

[nickthaskater]

The GTR Longtail is undoubtedly my favourite F1 of them all.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6100/scannen10597afkt4.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scannen10597afkt4.jpg)

Chassis 27R. Absolute perfection.

[5vz-fe]

^^ :shock: :shock:

[nthfinity]

The GTR Longtail is undoubtedly my favourite F1 of them all.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6100/scannen10597afkt4.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scannen10597afkt4.jpg)

Chassis 27R. Absolute perfection.

OMG, welcome to japanese wild tuning machines :puke: IMO

[nickthaskater]

Huh? Japanese wild tuning machines? It's a fucking racecar man.

[novass]

The GTR Longtail is undoubtedly my favourite F1 of them all.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6100/scannen10597afkt4.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scannen10597afkt4.jpg)

Chassis 27R. Absolute perfection.

:shock: Holy hell! Is that a car or some kind of space craft?

[nickthaskater]

That'd be the GTR Longtail...

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8994/scannen10576akba9.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scannen10576akba9.jpg) http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8329/scannen10658lehf7.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scannen10658lehf7.jpg)

[TypeLT]

Holy annoying, open the damn passenger side door and spin!

[sentra_dude]

Great post Sentra!


how is it that McLaren couldn't make a car that light handle as well, or better then the others? its beyond my comprehension.

but straight line speed is not what makes a supercar a supercar... its the balance, which the F1 just doesn't have right.

Here is the answer, straight from the source:



Do you have any thoughts as to the reasons behind the handling problems on the F1? Not the actual physical causes, but as to why it was built that way. Compromises in design or engineering? Or even not keeping it "down to earth" enough to cope with real-world driving situations?

P.S. How do the windows work? Which bit(s) open? Just the bottom part?
dredge,

The lower part of the window opens. As it happens, when you're driving with one or both open, it creates a draft that pulls into the cockpit the odour generated by the radiators, which is rather unpleasant.

Your general question is a good one, upon which I have spent many hours reflecting.
It would be indiscreet of me to go into all that I know (which of course is a fraction of the whole story).

Some of the factors that relate to this questions must surely include:
- We are judging the car by 2006 standards and experience; road car design has come a great distance since the F1 was designed in the early '90s.
- The company had never made a road car (ignoring the three prototypes that Bruce McLaren made in the '60s). The chief designer had never been involved in the production of a road car (ignoring the Rocket, which is really a single-seater race car with indicator lights). The chief road-tester was a Formula One driver. HELLO???
- They wanted a comfortable car that would accomodate at least two people and enable them and their luggage to travel across a continent in relaxation and at speed. At the same time they wanted a car with a huge NA engine, carbon brakes, diffuser, no rear wing, carbon tub, mid-engine functioning as a stressed member, no power steering or traction control or ABS. Not necessarily a collection of things that are perfectly compatible.
- In proportion to the size of the challenge that they set out for themselves, their budget was small.
- Various forms of technology - and most especially tyre technology - were still in their early stages. McLaren tried to push all the boundaries. When you do that, you are lucky to succeed in some areas; it is very unlikely that you will succeed in all.

The Veyron programme has cost perhaps 10 times as much as the F1 programme did. It was undertaken by a company with massive experience in developing and building road cars, and with none-too-shabby recent experience building race cars. The Veyron is as least as compromised as the F1 is, but in entirely different ways.

Building a truly great car is hard to do - a lot of guys have tried, and a lot of guys have died.

[PaulGT2164]

i think of reading most of this thread and the constant pointless arguing. i am now stupider.

[sentra_dude]

Not too overwhelm everyone with these 'quote' posts, but I hope they shed some light on this debate, and I find it very interesting to read what an owner & enthusiast has to say about this car, I hope everyone else does as well.

This is a bit off-topic, but since the Big Bug invariably comes up whenever the F1 is mentioned, I'll throw this last flemke quote in:

[on the Veyron]
I have ridden in and driven them. They are amazingly competent - and I do mean "amazingly". Feel like they weigh 30-35% less than they actually do. Acceleration is intense by the standards of anyone but Don Garlits and John Force. The brakes and chassis poise are great. Build quality is at the F1 level, although in a higher-volume way. And what a gearbox! The way the thing shifts gears - you actually don't notice that it's happening, and yet when you've gone from a standstill to 150 it pretty obviously has done.

Unless you live in Germany, however, the car is pretty pointless as a driving machine.
It's got a few ugly details (such as engine-turned aluminium console and horseshoe radiator surround) that stand out like sore thumbs.
Worst of all, the car has no charisma, no personality. It makes a Carrera GT seem like a barrel full of monkeys.


In the end, no matter what the shortcomings of the F1, it is still a fantastic car, and I still consider it to be my favorite car, and one of the best in the world, despite not being perfect. Knowing a car has faults does not mean its ruined, it is just being realistic.

[nthfinity]

In the end, no matter what the shortcomings of the F1, it is still a fantastic car, and I still consider it to be my favorite car, and one of the best in the world, despite not being perfect. Knowing a car has faults does not mean its ruined, it is just being realistic.


spoken like an unbiased, and true car lover.

Sentra, you are EXCACTLY hitting on one of the points of this thread's existance. It is O K that I'm not a fan of the F1; and that doesn't affect anybody. It is tiresome that it has been widely accepted as this penultimate machine by everyone it seems. That is such a detracting point to even wanting to like this car. If people build it up so much... they get disapointed by the real deal; and are left in bewilderment.

Real potential owners/and owners are among the few who think in terms of reality with the F1.

Where I disagree with mr. Flemke is that I am not comparing the F1 to modern supercars; but the ones' of the Thatcher era. Sure, there are things the F1 did better; such as the CF Monicoque Chassis is superior to the F40, and F50's chassis; and only topped by the CGT, and perhaps the Enzo's semi Monicoque.

referring to the cost of development.... the EB110 spent 30 million developing the prototype... Vector spent 30 million brining 22 cars to friution (17 production cars) and who knows about the Jaguar XJ220, and F40....

the fact is, the Vector's compromises were in terms of reliability; the use of its semi automatic 3 speed gearbox... yet it is remarkably comfortable to drive on any road surface across the US. It's largest problem these days is the lack of use for its tires; which were able to pull 1 G back in 1991... were those tires more advanced then when the F1 was brought to market?

Supercars have flaws, and that is OK; we don't have to put them on such a pedistal; as they definately aren't deserving.

anyway..... there is still one more point to this threads' existance... lets see if that comes out of the woodwork.

[nickthaskater]

Of course the Macca is not perfect - but from here to state that it handles badly there's a looong looong way IMO :D
Which is all anyone in this thread has said really. I haven't seen any fanboys proclaiming that the F1 will outhandle modern supercars and that it's faultless and touched by the hand of god, but I have seen plenty of people willing to concede that the F1 isn't perfect.

[LotusGT1]

Agreed with Dani and Nick. The initial starting point of this topic was nothing short of BS. This topic reeks after a certain dislike for this car. It's fanboy behavior, just from the negative angle...

I haven't seen people here claim the F1 is perfect, but for its time, and even today, the F1 is an impressive car.

For the record, Mika drove the McLaren F1 XP5, the last prototype built.

[nthfinity]

Of course the Macca is not perfect - but from here to state that it handles badly there's a looong looong way IMO :D
Which is all anyone in this thread has said really. I haven't seen any fanboys proclaiming that the F1 will outhandle modern supercars and that it's faultless and touched by the hand of god, but I have seen plenty of people willing to concede that the F1 isn't perfect.

where have i compared its handling to modern supercars, I am comparing them to the OLD supercars.

why start this topic, because this video shows exactly what Flmeke has stated, because this video shows eacactly what I have been saying for some time about its handling.

It is a bad handler for its era, it is a bad handler against its competion. I'm sure it handles better then a minivan from the era; but even a minivan has more predictible behavior ;)

about "stench" Lotus, your comments are as fanboy as the worst offenders.

what does mika hakkonen have to do with how the car handles? because he signed off on its gemoetries?

Arton Senna signed off on the NSX, yet it doesn't behave anywhere near as poorly on the limit...

[nickthaskater]

I didn't say you compared it to modern supercars, I was referring more towards you saying that all the fanboys say how godly it is (implying that it holds up to even modern supercars), and actually you have mentioned the CGT several times as well.

[LotusGT1]

where have i compared its handling to modern supercars, I am comparing them to the OLD supercars.

why start this topic, because this video shows exactly what Flmeke has stated, because this video shows eacactly what I have been saying for some time about its handling.

It is a bad handler for its era, it is a bad handler against its competion. I'm sure it handles better then a minivan from the era; but even a minivan has more predictible behavior ;)

about "stench" Lotus, your comments are as fanboy as the worst offenders.

what does mika hakkonen have to do with how the car handles? because he signed off on its gemoetries?

Arton Senna signed off on the NSX, yet it doesn't behave anywhere near as poorly on the limit...

I'm not a fanboy, I don't even care so much for supercars these days anymore. Sure, it would be a blast to drive, but my preferences lie closer to an M5 or a Z06, the cars that are actually somewhat realistically achievable one day in my life.

You come with the most crappy video, applaud it as it would be the ultimate proof, and wonder why so many people are sceptical about it. It's just like the topic you openend at F-chat a long time ago...another mediocre attempt to get your point across.

Being difficult to drive doesn't equal bad handling. The F1 isn't the end of all, and it can be a bitch to drive according to some people that actually drove it, but it is a competent car. Flemke's comments relate to the fact that the F1 has poor day-to-day usability, and can be tricky. It's not a flawless car by any means, but a damn capable one in the right hands.

About Hakinnen, you wondered which kind of F1 he drove in that clip (see page 4), I merely explained that to you. The video 5vz-fe was down, hence me explaining it. Good luck finding the proper context next time... :roll:

[McLaren4eVa]

Well he isn't exactly feathering the throttle when doing the turns he's simply florring whenever he gets the chance, and I don't think you become a serious driver just by grasping the wheel in a certain way. You can grasp the wheel of any car like that even if its a civic. I think that test drive was more about testing the cars ultimate power and impressing his bambino like girlfriend rather than trying to get the best handling.

[saadie]

"mclaren F1's do handle badly"

uhh you're wrong .... if you are not a good enough driver to keep the car going .. its your fault ...

the veyron is a bad handling car .....
remember one of the first vids released of that car ..... it spun on the corner .. the driver was trying to recover it by giving tracting ... all the wheels startes spinning ... he tried everyting but couldnt control the spin ... .

this car is a bad handling car ...

[LotusGT1]

Found this...covers it pretty well

In corners, it is not as stable as Ferrari huge-wing F50, nor as grippy as Bugatti's 4WD EB110. Despite the rigid carbon fiber monocoque structure, F1's tiny dimension, lightness and relatively lack of down force cannot cope with its huge torque and acceleration at some circumstances, e.g., powering at low gear through slow corner. In such case, tyre slips or even the lost of rear end (oversteer) may occur. In fact, 2 of the 4 early development cars were crashed by the heads of McLaren and BMW Motorsport during testing.

At low speed, the short travel of throttle pedal make slight output hard to be precisely controlled. Any slightly more step would suddenly increase the power. In this respect, a precision foot is needed. Besides, steering tends to understeer at low speed. At higher speed, down force builds up and the car become more stable and the steering become more neutral.

To extract all its potential out, you need to be a more-than-average driver, and have some practice to get used to its character. Once you have learned the secret of controlling driving line by precise co-operation of throttle and steering, your F1 will corner fast and secure and leave all other supercars behind.

Seems to explain why Tiff thought it handled brilliantly, and Jeremy didn't like it so much :D

[saadie]

^^ yeh exactly ....

this car is made for racing drivers :P ....

remember that episode in which jakie stewart was tutoring james .....
remember that part when he said .. dont feather or use the throttle in the cornet .. wait till the time you get onto the exit . then floor it ..... 8)

[nickthaskater]

Haha yea, it doesn't seem like Jeremy's 'Powaaaaarrrr!'-heavy right foot would be a great match with the F1.

[f1legend]

Found this...covers it pretty well

In corners, it is not as stable as Ferrari huge-wing F50, nor as grippy as Bugatti's 4WD EB110. Despite the rigid carbon fiber monocoque structure, F1's tiny dimension, lightness and relatively lack of down force cannot cope with its huge torque and acceleration at some circumstances, e.g., powering at low gear through slow corner. In such case, tyre slips or even the lost of rear end (oversteer) may occur. In fact, 2 of the 4 early development cars were crashed by the heads of McLaren and BMW Motorsport during testing.

At low speed, the short travel of throttle pedal make slight output hard to be precisely controlled. Any slightly more step would suddenly increase the power. In this respect, a precision foot is needed. Besides, steering tends to understeer at low speed. At higher speed, down force builds up and the car become more stable and the steering become more neutral.

To extract all its potential out, you need to be a more-than-average driver, and have some practice to get used to its character. Once you have learned the secret of controlling driving line by precise co-operation of throttle and steering, your F1 will corner fast and secure and leave all other supercars behind.

Seems to explain why Tiff thought it handled brilliantly, and Jeremy didn't like it so much :D

This explains it very well, although I am not sure about: "Once you have learned the secret of controlling driving line by precise co-operation of throttle and steering, your F1 will corner fast and secure and leave all other supercars behind."

The F50 handels better on the track, if you look at the Best Motoring tests, lap times at Suzuka in the F50 where a lot lower than the ones with the McLaren F1. And quite frankly those people know how to drive.
As explained above, the F50 was a high-downforce car. So in order to put a fast laptime you were given a better basis with the F50, than with a McLaren F1.
In a straight line there is not even a comparison since the amazing BMW powerplant and the McLaren's weight equal an acceleration which monsters the F50.

This if you compare two cars from the same era. Compared to modern supercars, the F1 still maintains its advantage in acceleration, also because modern supercars have put on weight in order to cope with safety regulations etc..

If however, you look at handling and cornering speeds, there are 2 supercars that are truly amazing. The Carrera GT and the Pagani Zonda F, both achieving 1.4 G of lateral acceleration (Sport Auto Supertest), which is something the F1 would never have achieved, because:

1. It had a relatively soft setup (this is something you actually can see from various videos) and therefore bodyroll that neither the Porsche or the Pagani show to that extent.

2. Tyres that have evolved dramatically. The F1 tyres are simply outdated, the newer Pilot Sport 2 on the CGT and Zonda F give those cars the possibility to achieve much higher speeds trough corners. However, it would not be sufficient to mount the new PS2 on a F1, since the whole suspension setup was not conceived for those tyres and therefore the result could be worse than with the original rubber.

The McLaren is a fantastic piece of engineering, what amazes me personally is the materials and packaging. To put this power into such a tiny car, with all the heat that needs to be dissipated, is an incredible achievement and I believe it is still unmatched in these aspects.

[McLaren4eVa]

^^ Yeh your right the F50 is a downforce car because ferrari wanted that car to be a Race car for the road whereas the McLaren was meant to be the ultimate road car so it doesn't have a huge rear wing or aerodynamic elements. However the F1 LM is a much better handler because it is a derivative of a race car.

Fifth Gear recently showed a comparison between a F1 Race car converted for road use and and Enzo and the F1 showed no signs of twitchin or a loose rear end. I also very much agree with the fact that you need to be a more than average driver to drive an F1 oh and that driving skill does NOT match your wallet size. It is a million dollar car afterall.

[yg60m]

The F50 handels better on the track, if you look at the Best Motoring tests, lap times at Suzuka in the F50 where a lot lower than the ones with the McLaren F1. And quite frankly those people know how to drive.
As explained above, the F50 was a high-downforce car. So in order to put a fast laptime you were given a better basis with the F50, than with a McLaren F1.


Sorry but I don't remember Best Motoring testing a road McLaren F1 in Suzuka. The McLaren was tested in Tsukuba as well as the F50 and the fastest was the McLaren ... 1m04s61 vs 1m05s81

Moreover, the Enzo is a downforce car, even more than the F50 and it doesn't help the wrong people to crash them as we have seen many examples recently ...

[LotusGT1]

BTW, I don't recall Best Motoring being anything close to objective. They'd let a Skyline win...always :)

[rave426]

Really who cares anymore. The car is damn awsome - lightweight and aero dynamic technology that rivals modern cars. An engine from heaven. Why does it matter years latter about the handling.

And why in the hell hasnt BMW made an engine like that for a modern supercar.

They better have a mean V12 in their that upcoming supercar........or else.........or else I'm gonna write some bad stuff about it. :x

[f1legend]

[quote=f1legend]


Moreover, the Enzo is a downforce car, even more than the F50 and it doesn't help the wrong people to crash them as we have seen many examples recently ...

Did I ever say the McLaren was not safe? Sorry, but I just do not understand what you mean. There are numerous crashes of any high performance sports cars.
I just said the F1 is not able to reach the same cornering speeds as other cars. This does not make a car unsafe. Usually, cars that let go at around 0.90-1.1G have a much friendlier boundary line, you know when it is going to happen and have the time to catch it. Less latral G forces means less energy. If a car lets go at 1.4G you have the devils own job in catching it. You will not have the same amount of time to react.
This is also the reason why you do not see powerslides in F1 anymore (like in the 70s). The cornering speeds are that high, that when a car starts to slide it is almost imposible to catch it, at least when the car starts to slide at a peak of lateral G forces.

You are right, there is no road test of the McLaren F1 on the Suzuka track, I confused it, the comparison is on Tsukuba and the faster car is the F40. It is actually puzzling to see the F50 behind, since the weight distribution in corners is much better than the McLaren's. I can only think of the incredible power of the F1 and the terrible lack of torque in the F-50 (power from 5500revs up) to explain the result (which would explain the faster F-40 time).

In this discussion it looks to me that some people cannot accept the fact, that the F1 road car is not able to achieve the same speeds in corners as other supercars becaus of the concept of the car. In my eyes it does not diminish the achievements one bit.
I just believe it is wrong to say, that the F1 road car will outrun anything else on the track when it simply doesn't because it has not the abilities to as explained

If you look at the Road and Track and other skidpad tests, the F1 did not reach the same lateral acceleration as other supercars, and this is what makes you fast on a racetrack (not a banked high speed circuit). Obviously the McLaren boys will now reply that neither of the F1 tests, where the Macca did worse than other cars is objective.

In the Best Motoring acceleration test between the F1 and the Veilside Supra, the F1 won by a considerable margin, so I guess they do not put the Japanese cars above every other.

[f1legend]

Really who cares anymore. The car is damn awsome - lightweight and aero dynamic technology that rivals modern cars. An engine from heaven. Why does it matter years latter about the handling.

And why in the hell hasnt BMW made an engine like that for a modern supercar.

They better have a mean V12 in their that upcoming supercar........or else.........or else I'm gonna write some bad stuff about it. :x

True, since they developed the F1 V12 from the inline 6 of the M3, they could as well take the present inline 6 engine and build a 6.4 litre V12 with the same principle.
The problem is probably the usual one, money. Engine development nowadays ranges from 30-60M €. As an engineer, how are you ever going to justify that investment for a few hundred cars in front of the board of some big faceless car company.
With the new regulations regarding emissions and on board diagnosis costs shave exploded. These are probles, that BMW did not have to face in the early 90s, when they developed that engine.

[TeflonTron]

The McLaren's engine is derived from the M5/5 Series, if I remember correctly.

[5vz-fe]

The McLaren's engine is derived from the M5/5 Series, if I remember correctly.

M5 at that time is using a Straight 6 3.4

Probably from 750, 850's V12

M70B50 -> S70B56 -> S70/1 (prototype) -> S70/2 (93 Macca F1) -> S70/3 (96 Macca F1)

[nthfinity]

The McLaren's engine is derived from the M5/5 Series, if I remember correctly.

M5 at that time is using a Straight 6 3.4

Probably from 750, 850's V12

M70B50 -> S70B56 -> S70/1 (prototype) -> S70/2 (93 Macca F1) -> S70/3 (96 Macca F1)
not that I know.... but is it perhaps not based off any other engine? IT just is its' own design?

[rave426]

The engine was specially designed for the F1.

Macca gave BMW their requirements and BMW followed through. Actually the engine was heavier than Macca asked for, but BMW also gave them more power then they asked for.........So it all worked out.

I really dont think it was derived from any existing engine........at least from what i know.

Edit -the guy above was right

Well.......It's "roots" seem to be from the engine in the special edition bmw 850CSi BMW Motorsports Vehicle..............but I really doubt anything is the same except for the base block, because the 850 made no where near the amount of power the F1 did.

So all in all........yes it was custom built based of nothin really.......IMO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_F1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M70#S70B56

[McLarenboy]

nthfinity is just looking for some attention, we should only really listen to people who actually driven it! And even then your personal opinion still isen't made up about a car until you have driven it yourself.

let's forget this video concerning the handling of the car for this reason

btw: an american driving a hardcore european racer dating a couple of years ago. No way he's got skills to control that car :fist:

[TeflonTron]

The McLaren's engine is derived from the M5/5 Series, if I remember correctly.

M5 at that time is using a Straight 6 3.4

Probably from 750, 850's V12

M70B50 -> S70B56 -> S70/1 (prototype) -> S70/2 (93 Macca F1) -> S70/3 (96 Macca F1)

Yes, that's it: the 850! I remembered the "5" in the model name and misremembered it as a 5-Series.

[LotusGT1]

BMW's motorsport division BMW M custom-built a 6.1 L (6064 cc) 60-degree V12 BMW S70B56 engine with aluminum alloy block and head, 86 mm x 87 mm bore/stroke, quad overhead camshafts for maximum flexibility of control over the four valves/cylinder and chain drive for the camshafts for maximum reliability. The resulting engine was slightly heavier than Murray had originally specified but also considerably more powerful.

It was custom built.


btw: an american driving a hardcore european racer dating a couple of years ago. No way he's got skills to control that car :fist:

Don't be stupid.

[5vz-fe]

http://www.vrchlabi.cz/e30/ruzne/enginenumber/

S70 S70B56 5576ccm V12 2 380 @ 5300 550 @ 4000 1992 ? Chain 165 no E31 850CSi //M Tweaked M70
S70/1 6064ccm 4 550 1990 86x87 VANOS E31 M8 (concept, unofficial car)
S70/2 627@7400 651 @ 7000 1993 266 TAG DME McLaren F1 double M3 ? :-)
S70/3 635 1996 McLaren F1


oh, I mean derive from, not really from from 750, 850 :D

[rave426]

btw: an american driving a hardcore european racer dating a couple of years ago. No way he's got skills to control that car :fist:

Hey guy, u need to speak for your own driving, and not worry about generalizing about how an ENTIRE COUNTRY of people drive.

Comments like that usually come from people who cant do it themselves.

[jakaracman]

It's just that this guy cant handle this car. And it's not the car's fault. He's really too slow, imprecise with steering and uncooordinated with throttle ...

[pitfield]

loving how much coke that guy and his missus had just snorted in the car park before going into the McLaren showroom, off their heads. Safe.

I'd be over the moon, i'll take mine in white with black wheels. Shame I'd be wishing I'd bought the LM edition parked in front of me.

[novass]

btw: an american driving a hardcore european racer dating a couple of years ago. No way he's got skills to control that car :fist:

Go make a waffle, moron :fist:

[nthfinity]

loving how much coke that guy and his missus had just snorted in the car park before going into the McLaren showroom, off their heads. Safe.

I'd be over the moon, i'll take mine in white with black wheels. Shame I'd be wishing I'd bought the LM edition parked in front of me.

and you are basing this off of what?

you seriously have some serious issues.

Am i looking for attention? no.

This is a valid debate.

thanks Lotus, i had thought the engine was a special development specifically for the F1; and not based off another car.

BTW McLarenboy, what are you basing this opinion on?

[saadie]

maccas engine was developed specially for it .....
it came out 30 to 60 kg's heavier then the requierment ..

maybe thast why the car is sooo muucchhh twitchy :mrgreen:

[nthfinity]

maccas engine was developed specially for it .....
it came out 30 to 60 kg's heavier then the requierment ..

maybe thast why the car is sooo muucchhh twitchy :mrgreen:

you see.. here's the problem with that... they tested thier cars with the engine; so they obviously could've worked out its understeer ---> snap murder over steer etc. issues in testing.... they are afterall, race engineers

[LotusGT1]

About the validity of this debate....see what I wrote on page 5 :lol:

[nthfinity]

About the validity of this debate....see what I wrote on page 5 :lol:

and what i wrote on pages 1,2,3,4,5 ;)

its an entirely valid debate, validated even by the pistonheads member who owns/owned one.

just because you accept that it isn't a good hanlding car (or do you) doesn't mean that the masses somehow think that its not got such a remarkable flaw; whereas it is not the king of supercars... and perhaps there simply can't be

look at the responces where people say it simply can't be true, and its all the driver, not the car. that validates this thread.

[saadie]

lol ... hes just one person :P
anyway ....
handling bad dosnt mean it isnt a great car :prr:

[LotusGT1]

^^
The starting point of this thread remains stupid. Basing an opinion on that mediocre video is stupid, presenting and applaud it as the ultimate proof is stupid, and claiming the F1 is a bad handling car is stupid. Also, saying we're all fanboys because we disagree with your ramblings is stupid, misinterpreting Flemke's words and say the F1 handles bad is stupid, etc etc. And good going with the Intardweb...

Draw your own conclusions about the so-called validity of this thread :lol:

Appearantly after 6 pages you still haven't figured out my opinion and the general one in this thread. I'll break it down in very few words one more time, and I sincerely hope your ongoing discussion which isn't a discussion ends....

We all know the McLaren F1 is not a flawless car. In the right hands it is an impressive and capable car though. It can be a bitch to drive, but it's not a bad handling car. "To extract all its potential out, you need to be a more-than-average driver, and have some practice to get used to its character. Once you have learned the secret of controlling driving line by precise co-operation of throttle and steering, the F1 will corner fast and secure". It can however be tricky sometimes....

[LotusGT1]

lol ... hes just one person :P
anyway ....
handling bad dosnt mean it isnt a great car :prr:

Yeah, but you know how important I am ;);) :lol:

[nickthaskater]

To draw a bit of a comparison, though slightly extreme, using nthfinity's logic here, one could say that a Formula 1 car is a bad handling car, simply because it's not easy to drive.

[nthfinity]

ah, so you are a fanboy

and, my opinions are not soley based on the video; but as i keep reiterating, what other highly skilled drivers have told me.... thier opinions are 100x stronger then mine, and yours.

Flemke points out these same flaws.

Being an above average driver? id wager its much more then that... especially with your last line


It can however be tricky sometimes....


the fact is, its tricky everytime you try and get near the limit.... and unlike a proper car, you cant skirt the limit

have you ever been to a track day? where there are some 3000+ lap guys there.... see how they drive, listen, watch and see if you can really call Tiff's track show an aggressive track session.

[nickthaskater]

have you ever been to a track day? where there are some 3000+ lap guys there.... see how they drive, listen, watch and see if you can really call Tiff's track show an aggressive track session.
How many of those guys are driving 620hp McLaren F1s?

[LotusGT1]

ah, so you are a fanboy

and, my opinions are not soley based on the video; but as i keep reiterating, what other highly skilled drivers have told me.... thier opinions are 100x stronger then mine, and yours.

Flemke points out these same flaws.

Being an above average driver? id wager its much more then that... especially with your last line


It can however be tricky sometimes....


the fact is, its tricky everytime you try and get near the limit.... and unlike a proper car, you cant skirt the limit

have you ever been to a track day? where there are some 3000+ lap guys there.... see how they drive, listen, watch and see if you can really call Tiff's track show an aggressive track session.

Bullshit. Simply bullshit.

Yes, I've been to trackdays (Nurburgring), and yes, Tiff drove pretty spirited. And no, he didn''t push the limits, as few would do with a $1 million loaner.

However, you are the fanboy here, starting this whole bullshit discussion with the posting of a crappy video. Although backpaddling now, you were applauding it for being the ultimate proof. If you have so much experience around exotics, I find it shocking you present that specific shitty video as ultimate proof. Makes me wonder how much you really know.

However, as Flemke said before at Pistonheads, and now, it's a tricky car at its limits. That means you need to be skilled to drive it at its limits. That doesn't imply it's a bad handling car....

[nthfinity]

you call me a fanboy, but this is simply based on nothing.... is it so hard that you cannot see something with an unbiased eye?

If the video showed a well balanced car while skirting the limits; that would be me posting "OMFG, teh MACCA is a good handler, too bad its ugly" topic



the reason i call you a fanboy is that you aren't providing evidence of otherwise. I have... you simply are blinded by your petty obsession with the original most expensive car in the world. and cling to it as if its' your only child. this is evident in post after post that you make here, and other threads.

you call the video shitty; sure its low quality, but you can clearly see what is happening.

is it the ultimate evidence? definately not..... but it sure is adiquate.

Ultimate would require data logging, track time with an average track day enthusiast, and a racing driver.

but nothing is impossible

BTW, im done arguing with your pointless "BS BS BS" responces; anybody with a legitimate responce willing to continue this thread in a nice and civil manner, like many of us had been doing?

[IMKAOS]

IMO u can make ANY car look poorly by putting an idiot behind the wheel thats not hard to do... put this driver behind the wheel of an elise and I bet he could manage to make that look like shit too :roll:

[LotusGT1]

The video shows a guy mindlessly ramming the gas of a 627Hp lightweight car. Well, what a surprise it acts unbalanced then. That video is not "adiquate" as it isn't showing or proving anything. That you're not able to comprehend that is not my problem.

You are the one that keeps making this topics about the McLaren, here and at F-chat. And everytime the discussion is based on nothing. You have this deep down hatred against this car or something, because you keep posting new topics full of shit about it again. I merely reply because it's amusing how you keep finding new crap like this video to start this discussion over and over again. LOL@the unbiased eye....who are you kidding?

Like I said, I don't even care for all these superexotics anymore these days....I'm not the fanboy here...

About the civil matter, it would help if you'd stop calling everybody a fanboy because they disagree with you. Especially if those have a good reason for doing so.

[nthfinity]

for the record, I didn't make any topics in Fchat about the F1. I mearly replied to an existing topic... which has been dead for a good 6 or 7 months now.

[Svensson]

Once again... calling that video proof is pure nonsence. It shows the first drive of Dan in his car, doing the first few miles. He's just having fun trashing the car around and scaring his wife. You can hardly call him an experienced driver, let alone being experienced in driving this particular car.

In the discussion I had with you concerning his downshifting/heel-and-toe, you pointed out that I couldn't see his feet. Well, I'l turn this around on you: If you would have been able to see his feet, you could see him being very agressive on the throttle. And now you're surprised that a 627bhp car with short-traveling throttle-paddle reacts snappy and bites at him? Come on, who are you fooling. This only proves that you need to be extremely gentle with your right foot if you don't know exactly what you're doing. Maybe even more so compared to the other supercars you mentioned, but that does not make it a bad handling car.

[pitfield]

loving how much coke that guy and his missus had just snorted in the car park before going into the McLaren showroom, off their heads. Safe.

I'd be over the moon, i'll take mine in white with black wheels. Shame I'd be wishing I'd bought the LM edition parked in front of me.

and you are basing this off of what?

you seriously have some serious issues.

Am i looking for attention? no.

This is a valid debate.

thanks Lotus, i had thought the engine was a special development specifically for the F1; and not based off another car.

BTW McLarenboy, what are you basing this opinion on?

.....on the fact that I would like one in white with black wheels you knob.

[RC45]

You can hardly call him an experienced driver,

And you know his because... he told you so?

I have met sports car and super car owners, who while not actual revenue earning professional racing drivers, still have 1000's and 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of laps at vairous race tracks in various cars.

Perhaps this gent is one such person.

As shocking as it may sound, some super addicted track junky sports/supercar owners put down 5000 or more laps a year at track days - and then even many hundreds more racing in some sports car leagues/series - surely this begins to qualify people as "experienced drivers.

Oh - btw, these are the folks Porsche and Ferrari build their "entry level race cars" (GT3, GT3RS & CS's etc) for - not the autobahn and Starbucks crowd.

So - back on topic ..... there are MANY folks who have so much experience they can jump into a car and after a few minutes begin to come to grips with how a car works and then apply thewir experience and knowldge to thrashing it - and perhaps they may, within a few minutes of driving it, expose some not-so-savoury flaws...

This video of the Macca F1 may very well be such an example..... or it may not... but I am going to guess it probably is.... until someone proves otherwise... ;)

[rave426]

Well Martin Brundle or whatever likes the handling for the most part.............its a repost but its right here:

http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42319

The F1 is at the VEEEEEEEEERRY END :roll:

[LotusGT1]

You can hardly call him an experienced driver,

And you know his because... he told you so?

I have met sports car and super car owners, who while not actual revenue earning professional racing drivers, still have 1000's and 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of laps at vairous race tracks in various cars.

Perhaps this gent is one such person.

As shocking as it may sound, some super addicted track junky sports/supercar owners put down 5000 or more laps a year at track days - and then even many hundreds more racing in some sports car leagues/series - surely this begins to qualify people as "experienced drivers.

Oh - btw, these are the folks Porsche and Ferrari build their "entry level race cars" (GT3, GT3RS & CS's etc) for - not the autobahn and Starbucks crowd.

So - back on topic ..... there are MANY folks who have so much experience they can jump into a car and after a few minutes begin to come to grips with how a car works and then apply thewir experience and knowldge to thrashing it - and perhaps they may, within a few minutes of driving it, expose some not-so-savoury flaws...

This video of the Macca F1 may very well be such an example..... or it may not... but I am going to guess it probably is.... until someone proves otherwise... ;)

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions....

This whole topic started with the assumption of Nth that this guy could actually drive, without as single shred of proof. But, seeing the guy slamming the gas as a madman makes me and others think otherwise. It was also posted and applauded as the ultimate proof the F1 can't handle.

However, I take the positive opinion of known capable drivers over a shitty video showing some random guy going nuts behind the wheel of a McLaren, which Nth sees as "the ultimate proof" the McLaren can't handle..

So the "And you know his because... he told you so" routine applies to the starter of this topic.

[LotusGT1]

for the record, I didn't make any topics in Fchat about the F1. I mearly replied to an existing topic... which has been dead for a good 6 or 7 months now.

http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37495

Ok, so you started it at page 2. Big fucking deal, it still was a lame attempt. BTW, look at the owners comment at page 5.

According to a long time F-chat member he's legit (page 6).

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97397&page=5

[nthfinity]

Lotus, you are a broken record... thankfully, I wont resort to your same stupidity.

loving how much coke that guy and his missus had just snorted in the car park before going into the McLaren showroom, off their heads.

and you are basing this off of what?

you seriously have some serious issues.

Am i looking for attention? no.

This is a valid debate.

thanks Lotus, i had thought the engine was a special development specifically for the F1; and not based off another car.

BTW McLarenboy, what are you basing this opinion on?

.....on the fact that I would like one in white with black wheels you knob.

again, what are you basing anything you write on? calling me a knob doesn't help your "they snort coke" argument

[jorge]

http://www.jabbasworld.net/photopost/data/500/deargodplsmakeitstop7dy.jpg

[pagani]

Here is newer video of dan driving the car.
And he even has the car under control no bad handling.
I kown this video is a repost but it can help with this topic.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=4382931953247936883&q=Discovery+Channel
:D :lol: :wink:

[LotusGT1]

Lotus, you are a broken record... thankfully, I wont resort to your same stupidity.


You can't back up your flawed logic. Thankfully I'm not the only one that notices it. See you in a month, where you will probably start another pointless topic with "the ultimate proof". Get over it.

:roll:

[bmagni]

Found this...covers it pretty well

In corners, it is not as stable as Ferrari huge-wing F50, nor as grippy as Bugatti's 4WD EB110. Despite the rigid carbon fiber monocoque structure, F1's tiny dimension, lightness and relatively lack of down force cannot cope with its huge torque and acceleration at some circumstances, e.g., powering at low gear through slow corner. In such case, tyre slips or even the lost of rear end (oversteer) may occur. In fact, 2 of the 4 early development cars were crashed by the heads of McLaren and BMW Motorsport during testing.

At low speed, the short travel of throttle pedal make slight output hard to be precisely controlled. Any slightly more step would suddenly increase the power. In this respect, a precision foot is needed. Besides, steering tends to understeer at low speed. At higher speed, down force builds up and the car become more stable and the steering become more neutral.

To extract all its potential out, you need to be a more-than-average driver, and have some practice to get used to its character. Once you have learned the secret of controlling driving line by precise co-operation of throttle and steering, your F1 will corner fast and secure and leave all other supercars behind.

Seems to explain why Tiff thought it handled brilliantly, and Jeremy didn't like it so much :D

so to drive it well you need to be a "more-than-average driver". sorry but thats just plain stupid... "not stable" and "not grippy" can't mean "great handling car"...

it should be more like "Once you have learned the secret of controlling driving line by precise co-operation of throttle and steering, taken many hours of drving classes, stuck a big wing on it and modified the aerodynamics, your F1 will corner fast and secure and leave all other supercars behind." :P

[RC45]

Here is newer video of dan driving the car.
And he even has the car under control no bad handling.
I kown this video is a repost but it can help with this topic.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=4382931953247936883&q=Discovery+Channel
:D :lol: :wink:

Off topic:

That video is some cool eye candy but is a very poor information source.

It is a terrible produciton.

The narration is the type of crap so-called car experts spew all the time - it makes it sound like no car maker even thought of a sports car before the Macca, and would have you believe that others like the Phantom or Maybach are the first cars to ever be uber-luxurious.

It comes across as a propaganda/PR show for the makers showcased.

Poor factual presentation, but nice eyecandy viewing.

[jadeddjay]

yea i liked the angles and the shots of the cars in regular traffic... that dude in the f1 though is such a cocky prick... the enzo guy is so much more mature about it.

back to topic:
i think its funny that in the video he doesnt seem to be too unimpressed with the handling of the car... lol

[LotusGT1]

so to drive it well you need to be a "more-than-average driver". sorry but thats just plain stupid... "not stable" and "not grippy" can't mean "great handling car"...

The car can be a handful at its limits, but it's not unstable or lacking grip as you seem to imply...

As an owner says...

As the owner of at least one McLaren F1 and the past owner of an Enzo I can tell you from personal experience that there is no comparison between the two cars.

The Enzo is crude, noisy, uncomfortable and an absolute horror to drive for any length of time. While the car does perform on the track I doubt there are many out there who would ever get the opportunity to use it in that fashion. I signed an agreement with Ferrari not to sell the car for one year, and I counted down all 365 days till I could say goodbye.

The F1 on the other hand is an absolute joy to drive. Every time I go for a drive I wish it was not over. It is a pleasure in every sense of the word.

I have had an opportunity to drive the Bugatti and it is a wonderful automobile. The performance, particularly the transmission, is spectacular. The only comment I would make between the Bugatti and the F1 is that the Bugatti weighs about twice as much, and you feel it. One of the beauties of the F1 is how light it is. With no power steering or other assists, you really never feel the need.

The modern car which comes closest to the F1 in driving pleasure is the Porsche Carrera Gt. It could use a system like the Enzo to raise the front.

In summary there is nothing that comes close to the F1, and I think the Bugatti proves that with the current laws, nothing ever will again.

[pagani]

The mclaren f1 is just to hardcore only for the very best drivers.
Maby a gt wing and better brakes than this would be perfection.
I agree complety whit you lotusgt1.
:D :D 8)

[nthfinity]

As an owner says...


i can't help but notice this quote makes no mention about the handling balance of the car.

[rave426]

^^ Nth is determined on this one.

Everybody might as well quit, because it looks like the procecutor and the defense are both fucking the the judge.

Nobody will win.............

[saadie]

lol ... this is going no where .....

im gonna say this once .. weather anyone likes it or not ... :P

McLaren F1 is not a bad handling car 8)

[dutchmasterflex]

Anything handles better than a Hi Lux..

[dash]

nthfinity: oh dude, You have completely no idea what are You talking about, no idea, zero. Probably because of the "bad handling" that car was totally dominating at race tracks since the car appeared? Yeah... just listen to the guy with Lotus on his avatar... :roll:

[nthfinity]

nthfinity: oh dude, You have completely no idea what are You talking about, no idea, zero. Probably because of the "bad handling" that car was totally dominating at race tracks since the car appeared? Yeah... just listen to the guy with Lotus on his avatar... :roll:
just another fanboy.

notice the race version has quite some modifications to aid its' winning ways... and in no way does the true production car handle like the GTR, LM or whatever letters you want to insert.... although, im sure the aero kits do help it at speed ;)


^^^

a typical fan boy responce "it cant be the car, its the driver"

in responce to that, look at the way he handles the car, he has some serious driving experience... the speed of his reflexes is very quick, his downshifting; the way he grasps the wheel.

but go ahead, and think its just the driver, or the weight distro with a passenger.

what you see in this video is the exact same thing i've been talking about for quite some time; with direct contact with a licenced racer who has one.

seems like too much coincidence to me 8)


this is a typical thread and post of a hater!!

to complain about a cars handling from a vid of a douche bag that doesn't seem to care about taking it a little on the easy side with the engine of the new car.

for anyone to try and criticise any cars handling from a vid like this is to show complete idiocy!!

just a pair of fanboys right in a row.

yes, i do loath the McLaren F1; and this video demonstrates what has been discussed previously... without my previously seeing this video BTW.

in the end, it is my unbiased look at this video in hopes that i would be wrong, and mistaken; and have to dislike the F1 for its style ; and its fan-base alone.

you show me the handling tests where it doesn't suck... Tiff clearly doesn't push the car that hard in any of the TG videos; but hey... if you see that as Tiff pushing hard, then good for you; enjoy the car. since its my observations alone; and if you want to agree, or disagree.... i could really care less TBH.

I think there has been enough evidence posted within this VERY topic to suggest the F1 has serious balance issues, posted by both Sentra_dude, and Lotus; besides this "end all proof" :-p that the F1's are piss poor handling cars for what it is.


what did this video spark?

a discussion, which led to more evidence of the SAME thing i've been talking about for many moons; even brought up by the McLarens' fan base here.

I have no real idea why the car is so loved by so many; but honestly.... the car is no hero; nor does it deserve that kind of attention; besides its' rarity.

the car is definately not deserving, anymore then any other exotic. It simply doesn't belong on a pedistal; as people will get let down by its performance if/when they ever actually get in contact with it, drive it, ride in it etc.

[5vz-fe]

I have no real idea why the car is so loved by so many; but honestly.... the car is no hero; nor does it deserve that kind of attention; besides its' rarity.


First off, I think you have some issues in labeling ppl, u are almost implying that if you don't hate the F1, you must be a Fanboy. I don't think that's polite.

A person could
- feel respect for the F1
- has F1 is one of the list of cars they like
- has F1 cameout on top of the list of cars they like
- thinks F1 is OK
- thinks F1 is inferior to the cars of same period
- simply hate the F1 and fail to see any qualities of F1 that surpass other super cars of the same period

...etc

For me, I respect the F1 for its speed, ground breaking center driving position design, chassis design, advance electronics (remote diagnostics), use of NA engine instead of Turbo charged alternative (F40 EB110 XJ220 ..)


the car is definately not deserving, anymore then any other exotic. It simply doesn't belong on a pedistal; as people will get let down by its performance if/when they ever actually get in contact with it, drive it, ride in it etc.

You sounded like you know many Macca owners, and also driven the car to a point where you find all the flaws.

[nthfinity]

You sounded like you know many Macca owners, and also driven the car to a point where you find all the flaws.

driven it..... no; know a former Macca owner? yes, spoken with another, yes.


LOL, why do people love this car?? why do people love any and all american POS none handeling "sports" cars??



that is what i have been waiting 8 pages for :) :D :D 0X :twisted:

[TeflonTron]

Nth is like a Mini-RC45.

Anyone agree?

:lol:

[nthfinity]

Nth is like a Mini-RC45.

Anyone agree?

:lol:

TeflonTron is like big- Pitfield

Anyone agree?


how about instead of name calling, you refute the poor handling characteristics that even a pair of owners agree exist in the so-called "ultimate road car."

so, if you notice the post above; this brings about a very good point.

finally some people are seeing the McLaren F1 as a poor handling car... so lets take this a bit further

the McLaren F1 is bloody fast in a strait line
American "sports" cars are bloody fast in a strait line
Eropeans, and well.... too many people, love the McLaren F1
American "sports" cars are loved by many in the US, and otherwise called " "so called sports cars" in Europe.
Europeans claim they prefer a good handling car over a fast one with decent handling.

Yet, this poll
http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42305&start=0
shows europeans largely prefering strait line rockets; with the ocassional true handling biased car. the SL65 is not a handler.

so, in conclusion, many of these european's are actually much closer to the same likes and wants as Americans. Also, Americans seem to generally prefer the balanced approach in this same poll.....

So, with this in mind, perhaps Europeans here are more minded like they precieve Americans? and the Americans are more minded how the Europeans precieve themselves?

so with those conclusions, the F1 will be chosen over a lesser powered car with a more balanced approach.

the results show for themselves, and i am only the bearer of this news :)

[5vz-fe]

You sounded like you know many Macca owners, and also driven the car to a point where you find all the flaws.

driven it..... no; know a former Macca owner? yes, spoken with another, yes.


I know that even knowing a Mclaren owner is quite rare (given that there's only 100 copies), but talking to 2 ppl is by far an accurate ground for such a generalization. You are a reasonable person (this macca thread aside), 2 point on a plot is really not considered a plot rite? :wink:

Let's make an end to this and call it inconclusive shall we?

[rave426]

Well Nth... If you dont like the F1 for anything else. You should like it for its engineering exellence.

Remember it was made AGES ago - with regards to available technology.

It manages to balance incredible acceleration with an awsome top speed......which isnt alway the case depending on if ppl know they are doing with the engine and gear ratios. Even more impressive when the only livable production cars that compete with it in these catagories today have at least about 200 more hp.

It can actually go the speed without flying off the road - showing great aero dynamic technology (seems better than the Kon CCX at least)

The damn car can hold 3 ppl for goodness sakes via its genius use of a center driving position.......I mean how many other supercars of this level can do that.

IMO opinion, from a mechanical/automotive engineering standpoint the only other car to compete with it is the Veyron. To get that much reliable, livable power, disipate that much heat, and create a dynamic transmission that can withstand those stresses, yet be as smooth as anything on the road.............Is simply incredible.

Fine......if you think it handles bad........You have your agrument and thats your opinion.

But there is no reason not to like what is possibly one of the greatest automotive/engineering achievements we will see in our lifetime.

[Jabba]

But there is no reason not to like what is possibly one of the greatest automotive/engineering achievements we will see in our lifetime.

I don't like it because IMO its easily the ugliest "supercar" ever made, well that was until the SLR came along, but its still a close second :lol:

It would be like having the best lover in the world in bed that also has a face like a pig !