Top Gear Mishap

[pimrusis]

levensnevel was quoted as saying "Which since the Jaguar D-Type disaster in series 2 (of Top Gear) seems highly unlikely to me. "

To what is he referring, I haven't heard of this incident. Did the stig crash a car?

[graywolf624]

Is that when the jag took a flying leap off the end of the carrier?

[levensnevel]

Pimrusis and Graywolf,

no it wasn't the car which was dumped at sea at the beginning of serie 3.
It happened in some 8 months ago during the prepration of an episode for serie 2. The victim was an original Jaguar C type, the one that actually won the 1953 LeMans 24hr race :cry: :cry:
The horror story goes as follows:

qte...
Top Gear 'trashed historic jaguar'
By Lewis Smith

JEREMY CLARKSON'S Top Gear BBC team were called a "bunch of joy-riding hooligans" yesterday and accused of damaging one of Britain's most cherished cars, the jaguar that won the 1953 Le Mans 24-hour race.
The C-type, now worth several million pounds, was the first to average more than 100mph for the race and marked a revolution in racing design that helped jaguar to dominate Le Mans during the 1950s.
To celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the victory, the BBC borrowed the car and put it through a series of spins and high-speed manoeuvres on a runway. When the car was returned to its owner, the son of one of the winning drivers, he said he found that the vehicle had been "trashed".
The drive-shafts were mangled, the clutch destroyed, the rear tyres had all the tread burnt off them and the car was in need of immediate repair.

Adrian Hamilton, whose father, Duncan, and co-driver, Tony Rolt, drove the jaguar at Le Mans in 1953, was incensed at the car's treatment. "They were just throwing the car around as if they were some hoodlums who had nicked a Fiesta out of a car park in Birmingham," he said.
"When we got the jaguar back it had obviously been hammered. The idiot who drove it showed no respect for a unique piece of racing history. He drove it like a complete lunatic."
The car, one of only three of its kind still surviving, was driven at Dunsfold airfield in Surrey by Top Gear's regular racing driver, Perry McCarthy, known on the programme as Stig, who is himself a Le Mans competitor, accompanied by James May, a presenter with the programme since 1999.
A BBC spokeswoman said the way the car was driven was the result of a misunderstanding. "The production team asked if it was OK for them to 'drive the car hard'," she said. "Mr Hamilton said it was, but unfortunately both parties have differing opinions of what hard driving is.
"Top Gear has no intention of upsetting Mr Hamilton, the car is being repaired and both parties are in discussion about the cost."
...unqte

Read this information on the messageboard of PistonHeads dot com back in mid june of this year.

[fishfreek]

I guess Mr Hamilton has not seen many Top Gear shows to know what Driving Hard means to them.

ANyone got the vid clip of this hard driving?

[levensnevel]

Someone who was actuallly present when it happened wrote in a thread on the PistonHeads messageboard:

qte..
This was ona few weeks ago. I remember it well...
The Stig was driving, with the new presenter in the passenger seat. And yes, thats all they did: burn outs, doughnuts etc etc.
..unqte

Not sure if TG ever aired the Jaguar C-type bit.
If it was it should have been on sunday 22nd of June 2003. So if it was actually aired and anyone happened to capture that part, plse :roll:

[pimrusis]

Wth? Why would they do donuts and whatnot in such an historic car? Thats terrible. Save that crap for Ferrari's.

[hgt]

It sounds really sad. But I guess it is exagerated a little. I don't think that Stig is so stupid to drive an antique way over it's limits. :?:

[kramerman]

You just never know I guess.. sometimes it almost hurts to see those nice cars get thrown around the way that they do with tyres squeling and burning and what not... A little bit is ok, but too much is almost like wilful damage to the cars internals.

[flat6]

That kind of stuff should only be done on cars designed to be abused... most modern sports cars, for instance.

[pimrusis]

Yea, not old antiques that frequent breaking (like old Jags, or so I read)

[mhn3773]

i think as long is as it was repaired by TG everything is fine...they probably shouldn't have tried to give it back like that...but all cars can be repaired..drive shafts clutchs and tires are things that were replaced many many times while the car was running lemans..so it will not hurt its historical value by replacing those parts

[Ivanhoe]

bah they always blow things out of proportions...

[levensnevel]

MHN3773,

Money isn't the miracle cure for everything.
Cars which are the integral part of a nation's automotive heritage should be handled with respect and care and driven by able drivers like e.g. Alain de Cadenet and Tiff.
Back in 1953 all was forged, built and assembled manually by craftsmen, a bread of men which have become almost extinct in 2003. And I do know that todays LeMans winners are modular built so that gearboxes can be changed in a whisker during the race but I know for sure that when Jazza's grandson presents the 2053 edition of TopGear such gearboxes will be as rare as the skills of the 1953 craftsman in 2003.

[McP]

A lot of famous classic cars are still ‘driven hard’ today. Take for instance all the cars that take part in the Goodwood revival race.

They did show their C-type report on TG, I have it on my PC (21mb divx).
I would like to upload it to this site, but I don’t know how...

Maybe Mr Hamilton is just annoyed with TG because the told a rather interesting anecdote about the driver: He was completely drunk when driven (winning) the LeMans race. :o

[TeflonTron]

Driving hard at Goodwood is not the same as doing doughnuts, handbrake turns and nailing the clutch until they break.

[McP]

The reslult of racing the Jaguar Project 212 (value 3 million pounds)
at Goodwood is (just a random example):
http://home.planet.nl/~phaff006/cap0082.jpg
and the result of TG's C-type test is just a few worn-out parts.
So , i agree, there is a difference between racing at Goodwood and the TG test.

[pimrusis]

That was a race right? Not a joyride?

[McP]

Judging from what TG showed on TV (I wasn’t there when it was recorded), I wouldn’t call it a joyride, just a standard TG report, with the standard tire smoke (of course, its TG :wink: ).

[Tumbler]

can and has been replaced so who cares....

[snacky]

All this time I assumed the stig was tiff. btw, they practically NEVER test ALL the cars under the same weather conditions. and all that sliding around the stig does just slows the cars down and adds seconds to the laptimes. I think each manufacturer should provide their own test driver to maximize each car's potential.

[levensnevel]

Snacky,

the beauty of an 'independant' autoprogram on the telly is that able drivers who are not on the paylist of the manufacturer of the car in question do all the driving.
Otherwise it is all an excercise in futillity.
And do you really feel that those laptimes are the final verdict ? As far as I'm concerned they are just an indication of the car's potential, using the 'same' driver each time gives you a valid reference point, that's all.

[TeflonTron]

can and has been replaced so who cares....

Who cares? Oy vey!! his is about a fundamental lack of respect for other people's property. If I lent them my *insert expensive car* and all they did was bust it up, I would not be happy. Racing at Goodwood is one thing, as you accept that the car could crash, but lending it to Top Gear to drive "hard" is something else.

[snacky]

levensnevel,

I want the driver to post up fastest possible lap times, not subjectively rate/review the cars, that makes independence a non-issue.

What did that guy that handed over the jag expect from top gear? I wouldn't give those guys my R/C car to test :lol: obviously he shoulda put some stipulations on the program like "you break it, you pay for it."

[TeflonTron]

I'm sure that he would have expected nothing more than a little respect. People forget that Top Gear used to do many, many reviews that had no spinning wheels, smoking tires and all the rest. Money is not the issue here. What is the issue, is the fact that Top Gear didn't have the respect to look after someone else's property.

[levensnevel]

Snacky,

If you want fastest laptimes you have to watch championships like e.g. F1, CART or BTCC. TG is supposed to be an objective program about passengercars for a wide audience. Nowadays it is all about infotainment. The only way you can compare passengars driving characteristics in an objective manner is how 5th Gear did:
> 1 circuit
> 1 driver
> 2 or more cars which are driven back 2
If I remember correctly there was an episode in the 2nd series in which featured a green TVR T350C. Der Stig drove the car around the circuit in two different settings, 1 set up for a circuit and the normal set up as it left the Blackpool factoryd,. Richard the Midget drove with both set ups on the public road. Suppose you can gues which set up was the fastest on the circuit and which setting the most driveable on the road. And you might remember with which car Der Stig smashed the laptimes of the Subaru WRX and the new Honda Civic Type R. If you do, you also know how Jazza felt about the car when he had driven it on a several B-roads.
So TG laptimes is a nice gimmic which they use as a red line throughout the series but it has no value whatsoever.

[McP]

I agree with levensnevel completely, the TG laptimes, in this form, have no real value. I hope TG will change this in the new series.
They have tried to make it a more ‘level playing field’ when they emptied water tanks on the track to make sure that the track was always wet (in most corners). They stopped doing this because they didn’t have enough water (it was too expensive).

[McP]

With the Goodwood example I was just trying to put the TG C-type incident into perspective.

I think it’s horrible that these (automotive) museum pieces get damaged.
If it were up to me (which it clearly isn’t) I would ban ‘driving hard’ with these rare classics.
Then Goodwood would show the original cars in the car park, and do a parade lap with them, and the racing would be done with replicas.
The Jag project 212 (from my earlier post) has been turned into a replica, in my opinion, when they repaired it after its crash.

Putting it into perspective again:
The celebration of 100 years of airplanes at Kitty Hawk: they tried (and failed) to recreate the original flight of the Wright brothers. They used a replica plane and not the original plane (don’t know if it still exists).

[stradale]

The Jag project 212 (from my earlier post) has been turned into a replica, in my opinion, when they repaired it after its crash.



Can I put this into perspective? :wink:

If it had been crashed one year after it was built and it had been repaired it would still count as the original car. You'd be amazed how many 'original classics' have been damaged throughout the years and have lots of parts that aren't the original parts that were fitted by the factory. You can't avoid that if you want them to be used. I understand it's a bit of a shame, but I like to see that they're still driven today and carparts simply don't last a lifetime.

[altedza]

regardless, with the money im sure the show has, they should repair ALL damages incurred to borrowed materials, whether they be cars, roads, etc. thats really jacked ;/

[jaybv6]

regardless, with the money im sure the show has, they should repair ALL damages incurred to borrowed materials, whether they be cars, roads, etc. thats really jacked ;/

Not true. I am sure that some insurance company somewhere pays the damage. If cars are lent out for demo then it's the manufacturers insurance company that pays up.

My best mate used to work at a Porsche Dealership. About 5 years ago he gave me look round the showroom and workshop. He pointed to a 911-993 Carrera 4 that was in the workshop. It was a beautiful looking example and looked mint. He then told me to take a look at the front. I walked round and the front wheel was halfway in the drivers door. I asked what happened and he told me that the car had been used by Top Gear's Tiff Needell had he had munted it big time. The car was then delivered back to the Dealership in this condition and they had to fix it. Not too sure who paid for it though.

[snacky]

levensnevel,

you're thingking about it way too much it, that's way too elabrate and unneccessary. they just need the fastest driver for each car under same or similiar weather conditions. and the car should be bone stock from the showroom. otherwise you get into a world of "what ifs" and no comparison would be enough.

I just want a quick comparison of relative fastest possible lap times between cars. if each manufacturer provide their own "ringer race driver" and conduct the test within common weather conditions that would be enough. then they cant say " well the stig sandbaggged." but as it stands, the way top gear does their testing does not give a good indicatiion of relative speed between cars. the way they're testing they're saying an rx8 is only 0.8 secs slower than an 911 turbo in the wet. it's a useless comparison.

and btw. if I also disagree with the way 5th gear conducts their tests. It's fun to watch , but all that oversteer and sliding around slows the cars down.

[snacky]

They stopped doing this because they didn’t have enough water (it was too expensive).

Top gear can't afford to to put on sprinklers? hahahaha . they're covering their ass coz they know they should have cars tested under the same ( or similar) weather conditions.

but seeing from their point of view, they do have deadlines and they can't control the weather. they should just do their testing on a track where the weather's more consistently dry.

[pimrusis]

They aren't going to build an indoor track snacky. And in Britian that is the only way your plan will work. Plus, do you know how much money it would cost to soak a race track with water? Do you know how much it would cost if they had to do it in the sun, which they would have to, during the summer? And do you also realize that they would have to keep it soaked for the length of time to get the car tested (since they run it a few times because of crashes and other things). They would have to do that every week, and sometimes for more than one car. No that won't work.

[snacky]

indoor track? do it in britain?! hahahahhahaha !!! lmfao !!!

all they have to do is use a different track where it doesn't rain as much, like maybe in Southern cali, or Southern France.

indoor track ! hahaha! too too too funny lmfao ! hahahahha

(and yes I know quarter midgets run indoor arenas, but I dont think they can do a good test of street cars in an indoor arena, not enough straights)

[levensnevel]

Snacky,

with respect to 5thGear I was referring to the episode in which they did the head 2 head comparisons of a proper circuit with, if I remember correctly:
> Aerial Atom vs Radical SR3
> Audi TT vs Nissan 350Z and
> BMW Z4 vs Porsche Boxter
When it comes to the dry / wet / damp discussion of the track my guess is that they prefer a damp / mildly damp surface of the track because that reduces the tyrewear considerably.

[pimrusis]

indoor track? do it in britain?! hahahahhahaha !!! lmfao !!!

all they have to do is use a different track where it doesn't rain as much, like maybe in Southern cali, or Southern France.

indoor track ! hahaha! too too too funny lmfao ! hahahahha

(and yes I know quarter midgets run indoor arenas, but I dont think they can do a good test of street cars in an indoor arena, not enough straights)

God Snacky, keep quiet. Test in Southern California? So you want to fly, JC, a film crew, and the car (s) to southern California (or even southern france) every week after they do their reviews on the Top Gear base? Thats brilliant (and since Snacky obviously can't recognize it, this is sarcasim).

[snacky]

levensnevel,

I have to agree with you on those 5th Gear tests, they're better than the TG tests. but again, all that sideways driving scrubs off speed and throws off the laptimes. but anyways, many thanx to Jabbasworld for posting em. sideways driving is still THE MOST FUN to watch. I think the Best Motoring series is probably better for seeing relative speed between cars. I just saw the 2004 R&T speedchannel test vids, that would be probably be the best amongst what I've seen so far.

pimrusis,
yeah, you're right. it wouldn't be economical for TG to test in Socal, but they can hire me and some of my buddies here to do it for em :wink:, btw I did say they cant control the weather or television deadlines. OR... OR.... we can enjoy TG for its highly entertaining content and watch others shows ( listed above) to see relative speeds between cars.

so yeah, all kidding aside, I agree with both of u and I disagree on some points too.

I dont know if you guys get autoweek over there. in the us autoweek sometimes has current race drivers give opinions on product. I wonder how many wrecks those guys have had over the years.

[frodefe]

I thought that the identity of the STIG was a secret...?

[MercedeSChink]

Ouch, sounds like a huge misunderstanding. We finally know who Stig is!?

[cavallino]

Top Gear does seem careless when they are driving their cars sometimes but they also do this for their viewers enjoyment. I would prefer the stig driving my car than Tiff Needle. The reason for it is that after Tiff Needle drives your car, there is no rubber left on your back tires. I also remember Mr. Pagani himself telling Vicki not to drive the Zonda Roadster Tiff Needle style on a 5th Gear show because the Zonda actually belonged to a customer.