CSL on the Nürburgring

[frodefe]

http://temp.andycam.net/hawk-tv3.jpg

Two laps: (right click, and <<save as>>)
http://www.camaro.no/CSL_Ring/evono-cslring05-part1.avi
http://www.camaro.no/CSL_Ring/evono-cslring05-part2.avi

(edit: fixed the obvious spelling error)

[5vz-fe]

I believe this is the BMW CSL ....but thanks regardless

[RC45]

Nice ride along.. I am just surprised at how long the M3 CSL takes to get to speed, and then only just managed to top 250kmh... That's only only 155mph.

Grteat soundling car, but does seem to be drasticly underpowered.

[Just_me]

Nice ride along.. I am just surprised at how long the M3 CSL takes to get to speed, and then only just managed to top 250kmh... That's only only 155mph.

Grteat soundling car, but does seem to be drasticly underpowered.

the car has 360hp and a speedlimiter at 250km/h. you can choose to delimit your CSL so Im surprised he havent done it on this car.

Data:
0-100km/h in 4.8 sec
0-200km/h in 16,8 sec

[cooperluke]

I think it's the first time I hear M3 CSL and underpowered on the same post.... :D But yes, beeing here sat in front of the computer, it's seems a bit slow! :D

[Gilles27]

yes for the price hike they could make `something more´ to this already fabolous engine... instead the complicate fiber based diet. Love the additional graphics thanks alot.

[RC45]

the car has 360hp and a speedlimiter at 250km/h. you can choose to delimit your CSL so Im surprised he havent done it on this car.

Data:
0-100km/h in 4.8 sec
0-200km/h in 16,8 sec

0-100 in 4.8s is quite slow... - the M3 CSL is supposed to represent the ultimate street incarnation od the M3... and 360hp (crank hp) is about 300rwhp... not that much for "the pinnacle M3".

It seems to be about as quick as a Lotus Exige.

Like I say - great video, great sound, great specs on the car, but way slow. ;)

Considering how long it took him to pul 250km/h, who knows how much more speed he could have made up even if delimited.

Even if you watch at other places on the track, he barely ever gets over 170kmh... thats 100mph chaps ;) - the engines sounds like its going 500mph ;)

[yg60m]

Thanks mate, slow or not I love the CSL :wink:

[RC45]

Thanks mate, slow or not I love the CSL :wink:

...not as much as the same video filmed with a pair of GT3 RS's though... right ?? ;)

[yg60m]

Thanks mate, slow or not I love the CSL :wink:

...not as much as the same video filmed with a pair of GT3 RS's though... right ?? ;)

:lol: I am not sure. But I am waiting for the same vid with a C6 Z06 :wink:

[Athilla]

Nice post man ! :D

[RC45]

Thanks mate, slow or not I love the CSL :wink:

...not as much as the same video filmed with a pair of GT3 RS's though... right ?? ;)

:lol: I am not sure. But I am waiting for the same vid with a C6 Z06 :wink:

You are not alone ;)

[e46drew]

0-100 in 4.8s is quite slow...



realy,,,,, thats kinda fast :wink:

[RC45]

^^ not really ;)

[e46drew]

^^ not really ;)

yes really,
percentage wise, of the cars out there, ya, thats kinda fast :clap:

[RC45]

^^ not really ;) percentage wise don't we collectively ignore almost all cars when comparing to sports cars.. right? ;)

Otherwise by that logic an 18 second 1/4 mile is flying :P

[e46drew]

^^

I agree with ignoring most irrelevant b/s, but are there more then 100 currant prduction cars that are faster, no-don-thingk-so

fo-shizzel :rainbowafro:

[RC45]

^^ well, doesn't Mercedes have like 120 different AMG models with sub 5s 0-60mph - granted none of them can handle or turn, but they seem to have flooded the world with straightline beasties.. ;)

And forgive me for judging all these "fast cars" against the 25,000 odd 0-60 in 4s push-rod V8 powered Z cars that GM sold from 2000 though 2004 ;)

You can pick one up for under $30K these days, so as far as how "exclusive" 0-60 in 4s is these days, it's not really :)

Of course the exotic materials and fancy doodads stuck all over the CSL are part of the whole deal, but it's not exactly M5 terrirtory right ;)

[Just_me]

the car has 360hp and a speedlimiter at 250km/h. you can choose to delimit your CSL so Im surprised he havent done it on this car.

Data:
0-100km/h in 4.8 sec
0-200km/h in 16,8 sec

0-100 in 4.8s is quite slow... - the M3 CSL is supposed to represent the ultimate street incarnation od the M3... and 360hp (crank hp) is about 300rwhp... not that much for "the pinnacle M3".

It seems to be about as quick as a Lotus Exige.

Like I say - great video, great sound, great specs on the car, but way slow. ;)

Considering how long it took him to pul 250km/h, who knows how much more speed he could have made up even if delimited.

Even if you watch at other places on the track, he barely ever gets over 170kmh... thats 100mph chaps ;) - the engines sounds like its going 500mph ;)


You are just happy it dont have an extra 200 hp, it would be a nighmare for you, seeing it killing Z06 and stuff on tracks. so instead of whining that the car is underpowered you should be thankfull :lol:

[RC45]

You are just happy it dont have an extra 200 hp, it would be a nighmare for you, seeing it killing Z06 and stuff on tracks. so instead of whining that the car is underpowered you should be thankfull :lol:

No - I actually welcome it to have extra power, I am really tired of having to pull over and wait for modded M3's to catch up when we go driving in the backroads.. :P

The reason I do not have an M3 (always wanted one though) is that it is really a lot of hype with not much substance and far too high of a price.. ;)

[RC45]

hype

bingo! the #1 reason i hate M3s.

Welcome back fellow partner in espionage crime... I wondered when we could again agree on something... ;) :P

[dirim]

I own a CSL thus may be a bit biased :) but I thought listing some facts would be beneficial for your discussion.

As you know the CSL has 3.2 lt in-line engine. At 360ps it translates to 112.5 ps/lt which is amongst the highest NA engines ever produced. Certainly the heighest in non-dream car range. It cannot be reliably made more powerful. That's why BMW will most likely switch to V8 in the next generation M3 to keep up with the power wars between the German manufacturers. I'd rather see lighther cars personally which makes sportive driving much more fun. :(

Sport Auto lapped the Nordschleife in a CSL at 7min 50sec which is again faster than anything remotely in its price range. For reference some representative times are: Corvette C6 8:15, M6 (new) 8:09, M5 (new) 8:13, M3 (manual) 8:22, Audi RS4 8:25, 911 (996) GT3 RS(*) 7:47, 911 GT3 7:54, GT3 Cup(*) 7:49, Ferrari 360 8:09, 360 CS(*) 7:56, Ferrari 430 F1 7:55, Honda NSX-R(*) 8:09, Ford GT 7:52, SLR Mclaren 7:52, SL 55 AMG 8:06.

(*) Times with sport tires like the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on the CSL.

During the same test it pulled 1.4g again highest probably of any car tested by SportAuto.

In conclusion, I wouldn't call CSL slow. It's not a drag racer though. It's not as fast as most of the cars I've mentioned above on a straight line but it shines at carrying speed into the corners. That's where it makes up its time. It's suited best to fast tracks. That's why it's difficult to drive the CSL fast because it takes skills, experience and 2xballs (not that I have any of them to make a claim :P ) to corner fast whereas anyone can put the pedal to the metal on the straight. That's probably what we're seeing on the videos under discussion here.

I hope this info helps. Take care all...

[RC45]

I own a CSL thus may be a bit biased :) but I thought listing some facts would be beneficial for your discussion.

As you know the CSL has 3.2 lt in-line engine. At 360ps it translates to 112.5 ps/lt which is amongst the highest NA engines ever produced. Certainly the heighest in non-dream car range. It cannot be reliably made more powerful. That's why BMW will most likely switch to V8 in the next generation M3 to keep up with the power wars between the German manufacturers. I'd rather see lighther cars personally which makes sportive driving much more fun. :(

Sport Auto lapped the Nordschleife in a CSL at 7min 50sec which is again faster than anything remotely in its price range. For reference some representative times are: Corvette C6 8:15, M6 (new) 8:09, M5 (new) 8:13, M3 (manual) 8:22, Audi RS4 8:25, 911 (996) GT3 RS(*) 7:47, 911 GT3 7:54, GT3 Cup(*) 7:49, Ferrari 360 8:09, 360 CS(*) 7:56, Ferrari 430 F1 7:55, Honda NSX-R(*) 8:09, Ford GT 7:52, SLR Mclaren 7:52, SL 55 AMG 8:06.

(*) Times with sport tires like the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on the CSL.

During the same test it pulled 1.4g again highest probably of any car tested by SportAuto.

In conclusion, I wouldn't call CSL slow. It's not a drag racer though. It's not as fast as most of the cars I've mentioned above on a straight line but it shines at carrying speed into the corners. That's where it makes up its time. It's suited best to fast tracks. That's why it's difficult to drive the CSL fast because it takes skills, experience and 2xballs (not that I have any of them to make a claim :P ) to corner fast whereas anyone can put the pedal to the metal on the straight. That's probably what we're seeing on the videos under discussion here.

I hope this info helps. Take care all...

Interesting read - however that 7m50 with semi-slick tyres is not that impressive alongside the 7m54 of the much cheaper and mass produced C5 Z on full tread street tyres.. ;)

And after all thyat I really do hope the CSL is much much faster than a chipped, piped amd heavily tuned E46 M3 :P

http://media.rc45.net/media/BMW.jpg
Video :arrow: http://media.rc45.net/media/slowbeemer.zip

[Just_me]

[

Interesting read - however that 7m50 with semi-slick tyres is not that impressive alongside the 7m54 of the much cheaper and mass produced C5 Z on full tread street tyres.. ;)

]

Every time he mention comes from sportauto, your s is a factory time. What is the time for CSL done with the factory driver?

Its a shame Sportauto never tested C5 Z06, Im so looking forward to see sportauto test C6 Z06 around the ring.

PS AC shnitzer drove M3 CSL (modified chassisettings) on nordschleife in 7.36 min

[Just_me]

first of all man, it's not reliable in the first place. BMW have realised their mistake in trying to push a small engine to produce that much power...they KNOW it's not reliable....one of my friends is very good friends with Chris Bangle, and he said the engineers at BMW are definitely not gonna mess around with small N/A engines anymore........lighter cars aren't gonna happen with many german makes in the near future....safety is too high of a priority right now.

the solution...they're following Audi and going turbo ;)Why keep selling the M3 and why the hell did they made the engine more advanced in CSL and why does the Z4M use the M3 engine if the engine is so unreliable? Make no sense.

If I remember correct, the new RS4 dont have turbo (thank God for that).
Are you sure you kow stuff about Audi? :lol:

[RC45]

[

Interesting read - however that 7m50 with semi-slick tyres is not that impressive alongside the 7m54 of the much cheaper and mass produced C5 Z on full tread street tyres.. ;)

]

Every time he mention comes from sportauto, your s is a factory time. What is the time for CSL done with the factory driver?

Its a shame Sportauto never tested C5 Z06, Im so looking forward to see sportauto test C6 Z06 around the ring.

PS AC shnitzer drove M3 CSL (modified chassisettings) on nordschleife in 7.36 min

But do remember the "factory time" was set by a US company that risks severe legal ramifications if they make false claims.

That alone is incentive to not lie ;) - Mazda had to swallow a lot of money just because they misquoted the RX8 power output by a few KW.

The times provided by GM (and validated by independent observers - one of which is a JW contributor.. ;)) are the real deal.

[LotusGT1]

M3 CSL in Germany - 85.000 €
Z06 in Germany - 80.000 €

Much cheaper is relative. And in the end the M3 descents from a sedan, where the Z06 is a sportscar by default. Different approach for different tastes.

[RC45]

M3 CSL in Germany - 85.000 €
Z06 in Germany - 80.000 €

Much cheaper is relative. And in the end the M3 descents from a sedan, where the Z06 is a sportscar by default. Different approach for different tastes.

Is it true you cannot use the boot of the CSL because the cardboard floor will fall out if you put a bag of dog food in there? ;)

And the C5 Z cost no where near 80K at the time.. - the new Z is so far ahead of the CSL it is not afair comparison.

I really like the CSL, but in my opinion ;), all M3's are way underpowered to really enjoy as an all rounder.. :P

I mean look how much stronger even a stock C5 Z is compared to a modded M3. Thats essentially my point.

The video of CSL laps is awesome - no doubt about it, but as a hipo car enthusiast I know for me, the M3 (even the CSL) would get boring pretty quick. It is nice to have some HP under your arse to use when you need to is all I am saying ;)

[LotusGT1]

C5 Z was never available in Germany.

Rest is opinion :)

Like I said, both cars are too different breeds that hardly can be compared.

In your opinion cars like the RS4, AMG line-up and the CTS's all must have the same basic problem. Not enough speed. But at the end of the day it all depends on what you want in a car. V8 or I6, 2 or 4 seats, premium finish versus polish plastic ;), 2 doors or 4, etc....can't have all.

BTW, M3's don't seem to respond very well on mods anyway. Haven't seen much (if any) 400hp+ M3's.

[nthfinity]

C5 Z was never available in Germany.

Rest is opinion :)

BTW, M3's don't seem to respond very well on mods anyway. Haven't seen much (if any) 400hp+ M3's.

if i recall, there is a vacuum on the induction; and things like a supercharger to 4psi yeilds tremendous results... such as in Dinans S3 M3 with 423 hp.

but you are right, its not like tuning a small block :wink:

[RC45]

C5 Z was never available in Germany.


Yet there is a waiting list for people in Europe trying to buy and import used C5 Z's... and they selling the few C6 Z's as soon as they land ;)

[Just_me]

[

Interesting read - however that 7m50 with semi-slick tyres is not that impressive alongside the 7m54 of the much cheaper and mass produced C5 Z on full tread street tyres.. ;)

]

Every time he mention comes from sportauto, your s is a factory time. What is the time for CSL done with the factory driver?

Its a shame Sportauto never tested C5 Z06, Im so looking forward to see sportauto test C6 Z06 around the ring.

PS AC shnitzer drove M3 CSL (modified chassisettings) on nordschleife in 7.36 min

But do remember the "factory time" was set by a US company that risks severe legal ramifications if they make false claims.

That alone is incentive to not lie ;) - Mazda had to swallow a lot of money just because they misquoted the RX8 power output by a few KW.

The times provided by GM (and validated by independent observers - one of which is a JW contributor.. ;)) are the real deal.

I only listen to sportauto I trust them better than factory times but if factory times is more valid for you then I wont force you to change your mind :lol:

Maybe this is something for you:

2007 CTS Super V, powered by a 7.0-liter 505-hp LS7 V8 lifted directly from the Corvette Z06

The Super V also features custom bodywork, huge rear tires, larger exhaust pipes and an engine sound unlike any other CTS.

With the new CTS slated for arrival as a 2008 model, speculation is that Cadillac will offer this exclusive model as a last hurrah for the exiting first-generation CTS.

If that’s not powerful enough, wait for the next-generation CTS Super V, which is rumored to be equipped with the LS9 engine—a supercharged 6.2-liter V8 with 600 hp. But you’ll be waiting at least until the 2010 or 2011 model year for that one.

http://cwimg.us.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CW&Date=20060328&Category=FREE&ArtNo=60327014&Ref=V2&Profile=1024&MaxW=490

[RC45]

^^ Old news already posted in Musclee Car Section - but it is good that you are taking note ;)

Afterall, GM is about to go bankrupt and will soon be bought by a Euro auto maker (see Daimler Chrysler :P) and then you will no longer be able to "hate" on Yank Cars - as they will probably be owned by a Euro brand... hehe

[LotusGT1]

C5 Z was never available in Germany.

... and they selling the few C6 Z's as soon as they land ;)

Same applies for the Bugatti Veyron and the Kia Sorento. Nice benchmark you have ;)

[dirim]

I like the leveled discussion with several interesting viewpoints. Have some comments on different points being brought up.

Trunk floor:
Someone asked whether the trunk floor of the CSL was really cardboard thus not useable? Cardboard is Jeremy Clarkson's humorous was of saying it's special lightweight material. The technical name of the material is paper-honeycomb sandwich. It's used in aircraft industry a lot and is quite strong. No problems with the shopping bag. :D Actually there are several lightweight materials used intelligently where it really makes a difference to keep the costs low as opposed to going Carbon Fiber everywhere.

Sport Auto vs Factory:
The interesting thing about Sport Auto tests, in addition to them taking this seriously and being objective that the same driver (H. v Saurma) drives all the cars eliminating driver bias. When you compare factory times, you will always have some bias.

Semi-slick Tires:
Semi-slick cup tires is believed to make about 4 sec difference at the ring. Note that many other hard core sports car are also tested with that tire. There is always the debate whether this is fair or not. IMO if it's standard on the car, it is. Otherwise, you can argue that the ceramic brakes are not fair as well if you see my point.

Reliability:
All BMWs have the same warranty and the CSL is not less reliable than other models. I know people who had driven their CSLs more than 10K Km on the ring. Of course the wear and tear is higher on hi-revving, fast cars compared family cars.

More HP etc.
Like anything else in life, there is no perfect car. They're all compromises of some sort. CSL comes from a sedan coupe. Seats 4 people comfortably and does a good joob as a sports car. Some other cars, are designed as two seaters, with less or no luggage space etc. It all depends on what you expect/need in a car. Different strokes for different folks.

For those asking for more power, 360hp is more that what most people can effectively use already. I really would like to see a trend to reduce car weight instead of increasing HP. A 1200Kg 300hp car is much more interesting and fun than a 1700Kg 500Hp car.

Best Regards,

[RC45]

I like the leveled discussion with several interesting viewpoints. Have some comments on different points being brought up.

Trunk floor:
Someone asked whether the trunk floor of the CSL was really cardboard thus not useable? Cardboard is Jeremy Clarkson's humorous was of saying it's special lightweight material. The technical name of the material is paper-honeycomb sandwich. It's used in aircraft industry a lot and is quite strong. No problems with the shopping bag. :D Actually there are several lightweight materials used intelligently where it really makes a difference to keep the costs low as opposed to going Carbon Fiber everywhere.


This makes sense.

We have a balsawood/resin sandwich floor in our cars, so light weight strong material is better than a sheet metal :)

[Just_me]

^^ Old news already posted in Musclee Car Section - but it is good that you are taking note ;)



but i asked if it was something for you? No answer?

[RC45]

^^ Old news already posted in Musclee Car Section - but it is good that you are taking note ;)



but i asked if it was something for you? No answer?

Yes it is.. however I am not going to buy any car newer than 2003 - especially not a GM car... far too many opportunities for "big brother" data aquisition with the new systems ;)

As it is people think OnStar is all fun and games, ut considering the service can unlock you car, sending other signals to tamper with/aletr or manipulate the car is a short step away.

Having your driving patterns recorded and observed is also not a good idea.

There is no need for anyone to monitpr where I go, how soon I got there or how fast I traveled between stops ;)

Not to mention accident reconstruciotn from screeds of on-board stored data.. :)

So - a 1st generation CTS-V is as far as I would go... :)

[nthfinity]

^^^
with a second generation motor :wink:

[bmwdriver]

cool link
Tkx

[RC45]

^^^
with a second generation motor :wink:

That's a given.. 408 stroker LS2.. AFR heads.. MTI tuned... 540 N/A RWHP
Hhhhhmmmmm push-rods...

;)

[Kiran]

The CSL might not have enough torque but it still is an extremly fast car. Look at the Sportauto time it puts down on the NS. I don't remember it exactly but I thought it was something like 7.52.

Not every car has to be a 500hp machine.

I'll give it a month before you'll be saying that Smart's should be equipped with at least a V8 :wink:

[RC45]

The CSL might not have enough torque but it still is an extremly fast car. Look at the Sportauto time it puts down on the NS. I don't remember it exactly but I thought it was something like 7.52.

Not every car has to be a 500hp machine.

I'll give it a month before you'll be saying that Smart's should be equipped with at least a V8 :wink:

This comeback is a little late.. a CSL owner already quoted NS times and trunk space ;)

And it's amazing how people will use the "power is not everything " when defending a car, yet in the same breath worship the ground a another of their hero cars roll on because itt has "more power".. AMG for example... :P ;) hehe