M5 oil question

[BACR]

I have just got an E39 BMW M5 but it drinks oil at a rate of about 4 litres per 1000km. I use Mobil 1 oil as that was what was recomended to me by the last owner.

Is this ok or is it drinking too much oil?

Should I maybe use a different oil?

[saadie]

:shock: :shock:

pics or stfu :fuck:


this might help .. http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-360.html :roll:

[BACR]

i havnt got pics at the mo, but help is much appreciated.

Thanks for the link to the thread, looks like my engine is drinking too much oil.

Any more help would be much appreciated.

[saadie]

e36 and e46 are 3 series .. you car is a E39 .. i think .... ok im confused :?

check this out .. http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24980&start=0
btw .. ZfrkS62 works for bmw ... drop him a pm or wait for him to see the tread :wink:

[BACR]

Yes i mean e39, i changed it.

Thanks Saadie for the help, after reading that post from ZfrkS62 im sure he will have an answer.

[Shinigami]

It's definitely drinking too much oil. 4 liter in 1000km's? C'mon, alarm bells should be ringing by then. I've used less then a liter after driving 26,000km's on my SLK.

[nthfinity]

oil pressure lights should be turning on with that much gone... (or at least some service light)

if you have an e39 M5... im guessing you have a point+shoot digital camera... lets get some costom shots of your ride... if magwheel could do it; so can anybody :wink:

[ae86_16v]

BMW S engines usually drink oil, but I am not sure the rate you are drinking at. For comparison sake, American E36s will drink about 0.5 to 1 quart every 3 to 5k miles.

[Shinigami]

hmmm, a quart is like a liter isn't it?

I find a liter of oil used per ~5000km's too much for a modern (non-supercar) engine.

[StanAE86]

1 quarter = .95 liters

.62 miles = 1 kilometer

So...you're going through 4.23 quarts every 621.37 miles

That's waaaay too much oil no matter what you're driving. On my E34 M5, it was a "loosely" built motor, based on the M1 race motor and the manual told us to expect 1 quart per 1000-1500 miles. Normal oil consumption should be covered in your manual. I would expect 1 quart by the time you need an oil change...in say 5,000 - 8,000 miles.

You'll have to excuse everyone's suspicions here, but without a custom shot, nobody really will believe you have the car you say...a lot of people claim they have cars when they don't. At 4 quarts every 600 miles, and you asking if this is normal...I'm starting to doubt you also.

[BACR]

Well its not my car really, its my dad's. The last owner said that it drinks alot of oil but we never thought it would be this much. Will get custome shots still if you want? Thanks for your help though.

Does anyone know what the problem may be and how much it could cost to fix?

[BACR]

We recently also have had a tapping noise, and after someone looked at it they said that thats the vanoof valve timers and could be around 5000GBP to fix. They have also said that its cylinder lining has broken down causing poor oil consumption.

Has anyone else had these problems and do you have any more info?

[gigdy]

lemon

[Shinigami]

Your dad bought a dud.

[sameerrao]

I have the Evo magazine buyer's guide for the E39 M5 and I quote:

"The fabulous V8 is a technical masterpiece but it has a huge appetite for oil. It is not unusual to go thru 0.5 litre every 1000 miles. In fact, some M5s consume up to a litre of oil every 1000 miles and this is still within factory tolerances .... as miles rack up the rate of consumption seems to slow down and a change to Castrol S helps slow it down further."

Supercarfreak and Z man will more authorative on this but I thought I would post something I read about...

Search here for more info http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=3

[TransAm]

About this E39 M5


Is there blue smoke out of the exhaust pipes under acceleration? :?:

[sentra_dude]

How many miles does your particular M5 have on it, and what year is it? That might help the more knowledgeable on this subject help you out with the problem more. Anyway you cut it though, 4 quarts for ~600 miles is way too much oil.

Does the car make blue/white smoke on start-up?

Also, some custom shots, or even any pictures, would be nice. ;)

[ZfrkS62]

ok, i'm going to give him the benfit of the doubt here and help out with this because this is also going to apply to other engines in more ways than one i am sure.

First off, Mobil 1 has never been recommended for BMW as far as i know. I'm guessing they were using 5w-30 as these days everyone seems to think that is the universal oil. Problem is, as the engine wears, it becomes too thin at operating temps to be effectively controlled. This becomes prominent in the 150,000 mi+ range, and most Chevys this age don't even consume 4 qts in 600 miles :?

There should be a sticker on the radiator core support that says what oil should be used. If it says Castrol 5w-30 Synthetic, then switch to Castrol TWS 10w-60 which is a motorsport oil developed for the S engines. This may help a little, but not drastically.

4qts in 600 miles really sounds as if there should be thick blue smoke behind you at all times :? or at least large puddles of it everywhere you park. So to me, it sounds like you ought to have a pretty bad oil leak from the valve cover gaskets. That would be the first place i'd check. next in line is the front crank seal, oil pan gasket and timing cover gaskets. While they are at it, ask them to check the engine vent hoses and valves. If the valves are bad and have sealed off the engine venting, then engine vaccumm will skyrocket and could be pulling oil though the valve seals.

On the note of valve seals, if they are fading, then at idle and deceleration you'll see blue smoke puff out the rear. Reason being, this is when vaccumm is the highest and puls the oil through the valve seals and into the cylinder. I haven't seen these really go out though.

There is the possibility that the cylinder walls are breaking down which would render the oil control rings all but useless.

If there is no sign of oil leaks, or clouds of smoke that are not caused by the tires, then take off the radiator cap and see if what's inside looks like a chocolate milkshake. If it does, then your head gaskes are blown and you're going to need them along with all the radiator/heater hoses because now that they are contaminated, the rubber has broken down and the hose wil more than likely fail at the worst possible moment, ie the middle of traffic in a strange place.

All i can say is have your dad take it to the dealer and let them look at it. The rattling you were hearing from the Vanos assemblies was more than likely caused by oil starvation or air pockets because the Vanos units use high oil pressure to adjust the cam timing. This should go away once you fill the oil to the right level and allow it to push through the system. It could also be the lifters caused by the same problem. If the Vanos system was jammed or not adjusting correctly, you would have a check engine light and a fault would be stored.

I hope i've been able to help. It's a bit difficult to asses the situation without knowing how many miles are on the car or what year it is. Good luck and if you have anymore questions please feel free to post them here, the BMW thread linked earlier, or PM me :D Let us know how it turns out.

[BACR]

Wow, thanks ZfrkS62. I really appreciate it. The car has 60,000 miles on the clock and is from '99. The tapping noise only occurs at idle and really makes it sound like a diesel. Does this explian anything? I heard that the '99 M5 id notorious for making a diesel noise at idle. Thanks again

[ZfrkS62]

Wow, thanks ZfrkS62. I really appreciate it. The car has 60,000 miles on the clock and is from '99. The tapping noise only occurs at idle and really makes it sound like a diesel. Does this explian anything? I heard that the '99 M5 id notorious for making a diesel noise at idle. Thanks again

Ok, i have one last suggestion that you can try. It may take about 30 minutes to do and goes back to what i was saying about the lifters being oil starved. What you are saying about the noise at idle, really seems to fit.

1: Check oil level and top off as needed

2: Let the engine idle until operating temp is reached. open the hood and listen or the noise.

3: if you can hear the noise and verify it from the valve train, run the engine with no load (a/c off, in neutral) between 2500 and 3000 rpm or 3 minutes

4: let the engine return to idle. oili pressure should return to minimal after 15-30 seconds. Listen for the noise again. If the noise is still present, then repeat steps 3 and 4 up to 5 times.

5: if after the 5th attempt, the noise is still present, run the procedure again a 6th time but hold RPM's for 15 minutes.

If the noise is gone, then the problem was just air in the system. if the noise is still present, then take it to the dealer and tell them what is happening, and explain that you tried the bleeding procedure outlined in SIB 11-01-01. However, i feel i should say that this bulletin number is from BMW-NA so i am not 100% sure it will be the same # in Europe as you have more engines than we do.

[BACR]

Well after a lot of investigating, and a lot of help (thank you), these were the final thoughts (writing in red) from someone who had the problem before, which I thought I would share with JabbasWorld:


First off, Mobil 1 has never been recommended for BMW as far as i know. I'm guessing they were using 5w-30 as these days everyone seems to think that is the universal oil. Problem is, as the engine wears, it becomes too thin at operating temps to be effectively controlled. This becomes prominent in the 150,000 mi+ range, and most Chevys this age don't even consume 4 qts in 600 miles Totally agree, this engine should only be run TWS and nothing else! Unfortunately TWS is only available from BMW dealers although Halfords now sell the same under a different brand name (from memory it is called React or something similar) If you are using any oil other than TWS it would invalidate your warranty, BMW are that particular about this.

There should be a sticker on the radiator core support that says what oil should be used. If it says Castrol 5w-30 Synthetic, then switch to Castrol TWS 10w-60 which is a motorsport oil developed for the S engines. This may help a little, but not drastically. My oil consumption dropped markedly with this oil (to about a litre/600 miles)

4qts in 600 miles really sounds as if there should be thick blue smoke behind you at all times or at least large puddles of it everywhere you park. So to me, it sounds like you ought to have a pretty bad oil leak from the valve cover gaskets. That would be the first place i'd check. next in line is the front crank seal, oil pan gasket and timing cover gaskets. While they are at it, ask them to check the engine vent hoses and valves. If the valves are bad and have sealed off the engine venting, then engine vaccumm will skyrocket and could be pulling oil though the valve seals. Again I agree- but start with the obvious. Is there any evidence of oil in the dirt on the back of the car? Clean out the inside of the exhaust tips so they are shiny and see how long it takes them to go black- my car took less than 100 miles. I did have a leak from the valve cover gaskets and it showed as oil around the ABS unit, the oil cap and the exhaust manifolds. Replacing these is a £500 job. I imagine you do not have pools of oil underneath the engine though, so aside of the obvious he has pointed out it seems unlikely the problem is a leak and more likely it is being consumed.

On the note of valve seals, if they are fading, then at idle and deceleration you'll see blue smoke puff out the rear. Reason being, this is when vaccumm is the highest and puls the oil through the valve seals and into the cylinder. I haven't seen these really go out though. Possible but unlikely with such a low mileage. Rev the car and see when the smoke comes out- it will smoke, they all do. If it blows blue under load I would suggest its a bore lining problem. If it only smokes when you're off the throttle (you will need to be followed to see this) then it is likely to be valve guides. Another really expensive job as there are 32 of them and both heads have to be removed, stripped and rebuilt.

There is the possibility that the cylinder walls are breaking down which would render the oil control rings all but useless. BMW now admit that some early M5's (MY 99-00) are suffering from this. Mine was but I could not get BMW to admit it. They did numerous tests incl. compression and oil drain tests and all were inconclusive. A new engine is £12,000! The damage to the bore linings is due to poor grade fuel with high sulphur contents which eat the linings. They allegedly changed the linings for the M5 to stop this but now it seems the early ones were missed.

If there is no sign of oil leaks, or clouds of smoke that are not caused by the tires, then take off the radiator cap and see if what's inside looks like a chocolate milkshake. If it does, then your head gaskes are blown and you're going to need them along with all the radiator/heater hoses because now that they are contaminated, the rubber has broken down and the hose wil more than likely fail at the worst possible moment, ie the middle of traffic in a strange place. Unlikely to be the reason for the oil consumption- but have you had high water temperatures? It is worth checking.

All i can say is have your dad take it to the dealer and let them look at it. The rattling you were hearing from the Vanos assemblies was more than likely caused by oil starvation or air pockets because the Vanos units use high oil pressure to adjust the cam timing. This should go away once you fill the oil to the right level and allow it to push through the system. It could also be the lifters caused by the same problem. If the Vanos system was jammed or not adjusting correctly, you would have a check engine light and a fault would be stored. This is all true. It has to be worth trying the procedure he details but I fear it is unlikely to cure it. The problem with the VANOS is really well known on the E36 M3 and the E39 M5. By all means do all you can to try and fix it, but sadly I fear it will be fruitless. Repairing the VANOS is £5,000 but it does include new head gaskets and valve gaskets at least!

Great car but when they start going wrong, the bills are huge. I have just read an article in BMW owner by one of the journalists who bought one. He paid £21k for a 2000 car and in the first month of ownership it cost him £3500 in failed components.

Common failures are:

Air flow meters- rough running symptoms

Oil Consumption

VANOS

rear anti roll bar drop links

clutch slipping



This was some great help and the M5 was fixed by putting the right oil in and giving it a good blast to clear the engine!

Hope this helps for anyone else who may have the same problems.

[ZfrkS62]

Great to hear that your engine is happy again BACR :D

Unlikely to be the reason for the oil consumption- but have you had high water temperatures? It is worth checking.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

i guess he's taking the literal term of "oil consumption". if the oil is skirting between the oil galleys and water jackets by way of head gasket, then the oil is not going back to the pan. When oil doesn't go back to the pan, it can't read on the stick. :lol:

The rear sway bar drop links that he mentions i am assuming are the end links. all the are are ball joints that secure the sway bar to the strut i have seen these go out, but another common problem is the brackets which hold the sway bar to the subframe. After constant flexing, these eventually break off at the point where it sets in the subframe mount. pretty cheap to fix and i believe the part has been updated since it was first engineered.

anyway, glad to see the problem was fixed just by switching oils. Now you can get to enjoying the car without worrying about that pesky oil light :P :D

[ViperASR]

Sounds like your going to be needing an engine rebuild. I'm no expert on BMWs, but it is burning a TON of oil, its like you putting as much gas as oil in it. The tapping sounds like it could be a bit deal, especially with the amount of oil it is burning.

[ZfrkS62]

Sounds like your going to be needing an engine rebuild. I'm no expert on BMWs, but it is burning a TON of oil, its like you putting as much gas as oil in it. The tapping sounds like it could be a bit deal, especially with the amount of oil it is burning.

This was some great help and the M5 was fixed by putting the right oil in and giving it a good blast to clear the engine!

Hope this helps for anyone else who may have the same problems.


did you not notice the second page? :lol:

[ViperASR]

Sounds like your going to be needing an engine rebuild. I'm no expert on BMWs, but it is burning a TON of oil, its like you putting as much gas as oil in it. The tapping sounds like it could be a bit deal, especially with the amount of oil it is burning.

This was some great help and the M5 was fixed by putting the right oil in and giving it a good blast to clear the engine!

Hope this helps for anyone else who may have the same problems.


did you not notice the second page? :lol:

whooops :oops:

[TopGearNL]

Great to hear its running fine again!

This is my favourite M5 and I hope to own one one day!

So thanks for the info and solutions to the problems, they can come in handy! :D