F430 Supertest results

[st-anger]

NS: 7.55 min
HHR: 1.12,7
0-100: 4.0
0-160: 8.4
0-200: 12.6

car equipped with optional Corsas and CCM

[st-anger]

i´m a bit dissapointed as i estimated such a time with the std. tires and NOT with the optional Corsas... :?
with almost 500hp, e-diff and all the other state of the art techs, hmmmm, i´m afraid they still haven´t sortet out their suspension "issues"...

[RAMMIUS]

^^^ :lol: :lol: That time can`t be real . Of course the test was made by a german car (very) biased magazine , so....... :mrgreen:

Suspension problems ? :? In my knowledge the Skyhook is the most advanced system available .

Do you know something else ? :?

[st-anger]

^^^ :lol: :lol: That time can`t be real . Of course the test was made by a german car (very) biased magazine , so....... :mrgreen:

Suspension problems ? :? In my knowledge the Skyhook is the most advanced system available .

Do you know something else ? :?

...the mag will come out tomorrow in germany and i´ll get my copy a day later, this info is from a source of mine who gets the results always some days in advance, the test itself took place when the Radical set the (unofficial) lap record at NS, a buddy of mine was there when HvS testdrove the F430 for the Supertest at NS the second time, at the first attempt there were some problems - don´t know details, a Ferrari technican was there as well, it was NO car from Ferrari Germany but one of Fiorano, with italian plates, a yellow one, on the second occasion, the Radical test day with closed circuit, the weather was perfect - therefor the record from the Radical - so weather-issues cuoldn´t have been the problem...

äähhhmm, don´t know how familiar u´re with SA and the persons behind this mag, incl. chief editor HvS who does all supertests, well i know him in person and he´s definitely one of the few who´re NOT biased on any brand, e.g. i can tell u that HvS loves Ferraris and he used to race Ferrari Challenge - u see - not Porsche Cup :wink:

when it´s been AMS or whatever german mag i could have said "probably yes" but not with SA, sorry... :)

we´ll see when the full test is out - of course will get the mag, scan it and translate the most imp parts - check "mag-scans" the upcomming days...

[RAMMIUS]

Waiting for the article , or should I say the translation ? :wink:

This is gonna be a very interesting read :)

[yg60m]

Thanks in advance for the scan and the transaltion parts st-anger but it's true that we could have wait an even better time from the F430. 7:55 is not that far from the 997 Carrera S wich is heavier and has 135 bhp less ...

[nejcdolinsek]

Interesting.... Although I still can't understand how Porsches can be SO much faster around the ring. Quite frankly, I find it embarrassing for Ferrari to be so far off the pace.

Can't wait for the scan! :D

[RAMMIUS]

^^^ ditto :mrgreen:

[twboy1999]

Interesting.... Although I still can't understand how Porsches can be SO much faster around the ring. Quite frankly, I find it embarrassing for Ferrari to be so far off the pace.

Can't wait for the scan! :D

Ferraris are developed at Fiorano, which is a proper racetrack. Porsches are developed at the Nordschleiffe... which is everything but a 'conventional' racetrack :wink:

yupppp... totally agree..
if u put a 997s vs a 430 on any track, other than the ring, the 430 will rape it no matter what.. heck, it is faster than gallardo,, and every magazine praise for it's handling

[st-anger]

...i tend to say: let´s wait for the real F430 competitor, the 997 Turbo :mrgreen:

[nthfinity]

wow, this is a lot slower then i had expected :shock:

its still definately fast... but when comparing vs. a 996 GT3 (not even the RS) the C5 Z06... the Ferrari isnt anywhere near the level i would've expected with the new manatinio and e-diff... the 430 still has some road manners built into its suspension compared to the hardcore Enzo... but i guess still not enough to make it through NS as fast as it could...

i definately wonder what the problems they were having with the car during the first test, and im looking forward reading the scans. i wonder if its race-tuned suspension is just too stiff?

oh, and im definatley looking forward to the SA supertest of the 997 Turbo :twisted:
thanks for the heads up :)

[SFDMALEX]

Hm thats dead slow :? I couldnt care less but there is absolutly no fucking way it laps only a second faster then the CS :? All that power at NS....something was wrong.......but oh well :)

[SFDMALEX]

Ferrari isnt anywhere near the level i would've expected with the new manatinio and e-diff... up :)

Well all that shit is useless when you hit the track :wink: And I hope they turn every single possible driving aid off when the did the lap.

[nejcdolinsek]

Interesting.... Although I still can't understand how Porsches can be SO much faster around the ring. Quite frankly, I find it embarrassing for Ferrari to be so far off the pace.

Can't wait for the scan! :D

Ferraris are developed at Fiorano, which is a proper racetrack. Porsches are developed at the Nordschleiffe... which is everything but a 'conventional' racetrack :wink:

yupppp... totally agree..
if u put a 997s vs a 430 on any track, other than the ring, the 430 will rape it no matter what.. heck, it is faster than gallardo,, and every magazine praise for it's handling

Oh come on! You can't possibly compare the 997s and the F430... the very fact that you're even doing so shows what a joke Ferrari is around the ring :roll: As st-anger said, the 997 Turbo will be the real competitor, and by the looks of it, its gonna absolutely RAPE the F430. And all this is coming from a diehard Ferrari fan... :(

And by the looks of it, the F430 still isn't that much (if at all) faster around a "proper" racetrack than any eqivalent Porsche. IMO, Ferraris have never been faster than Porsches, but instead have always offered greater driving pleasure. Each have their own virtues.

[SFDMALEX]

Oh come on! You can't possibly compare the 997s and the F430... the very fact that you're even doing so shows what a joke Ferrari is around the ring :roll: As st-anger said, the 997 Turbo will be the real competitor, and by the looks of it, its gonna absolutely RAPE the F430. And all this is coming from a diehard Ferrari fan... :(

And by the looks of it, the F430 still isn't that much (if at all) faster around a "proper" racetrack than any eqivalent Porsche. IMO, Ferraris have never been faster than Porsches, but instead have always offered greater driving pleasure. Each have their own virtues.

Sorry man but thats rubbish.

360 and 996TT where head to head in every single test they did...

360CS was the better in the Vs. GT3 battle.

You write off the 430 just cause of this lap at NS? :?

whatever :roll:

[st-anger]

...unfortunately it (again) really seems to be that we can´t count in the NS for comparison - the playground are again just such unbelievable boring tracks like Fiorano, HHR, Monza,.....whatever - we had that discussion endless times before, but let me correct the one or other thing here

360: 1:15,1
TT: 1:14,6
and i won´t add here that the TT was 13sec faster............ :niet:

the other thing that keeps me wondering is why ppl still compare GT3 and CS :?:

imho: GT3 vs 360 and GT3-RS vs 360 CS

but i´m definitely with u Alex, although the NS time should have been better we can´t say the 430 is crap...
it´s just like that - i have quite some insight into industry pool session and therefore i know that Ferrari is more and more at the ring and i also know that they frequently rent workshops as they won´t show up in Meuspath where all the NS testing equipment and know-how is located, for "i don´t know" reasons which is a bit arrogant imo, so everyone expected a "real good" lap time due to the more testing/experience but well........... :|

[inso]

http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34588

[JoeHahn]

Hah - what a dissapointment. The acceleration was there but it cant even beat a Gallardo at Hockenheim with corsa tyres - that is nothing but horrible. Imagine what the Gallardo SE with corsa tyres and its shorter gear ratios will do to this thing, without even mentioning the 997 Turbo :roll: . Sorry, but the F430 got Gallardowned :lol:

[RAMMIUS]

IMO, Ferraris have never been faster than Porsches, but instead have always offered greater driving pleasure. Each have their own virtues.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

I recommend you to watch some Best Motoring videos to see how fing FAST Ferrari`s are compared to Porsche`s :twisted:

[golfiste]

ferrari is like honda but without vtec

[LotusGT1]

If you think Best Motoring has anything to do with objective testing you have little clue. It's entertaining, but those laps have as much reference value as the Top Gear laptimes. Little to none.

[golfiste]

thanks god for vtec and FERRARI

[st-anger]

If you think Best Motoring has anything to do with objective testing you have little clue. It's entertaining, but those laps have as much reference value as the Top Gear laptimes. Little to none.

AMEN :!:

luckily i´m not the only one seeing it exactly like that :good:

[golfiste]

st anger you see this :fist:

[RAMMIUS]

If you think Best Motoring has anything to do with objective testing you have little clue. It's entertaining, but those laps have as much reference value as the Top Gear laptimes. Little to none.



Best Motoring is VERY objective when testing NON Japanese cars .
And I do have a lot of clues , I reccomend the 2000 edition , Battle In Suzuka , and after you watch it , will talk.

Ooooo , actually it won`t be anything to talk about.

:lol: :lol:

[gucom]

:? golfiste what do you think your contribution to this discussion is? looks to me like ur asking for instaban...read the rules no personal attacks, and especially not when there isn't even a reason to be even the slightest bit upset...

as for the time, i too expected ferrari to be faster, and i too cant wait for hte 997TT's time on the 'Ring :D

[golfiste]

i was joking sorry :oops:

[gucom]

ow k i must have a bad sense of humour...
its just in the past we've been having some trouble here at JW with normal discussions turning into flame wars for nothing, so the no personal attack-rule was imposed...
but well lets get back on-topic :) i dont know that much about best motoring, its bin a couple of years since i last saw anything by them cos the japanes annoys me, but i dont think you can get more objective than SA...1 driver who knows the track absolutely by heart...im assuming he goes flat-out in every car, so then its as comparable as you can reasonably expect a test to be :)

[st-anger]

st anger you see this :fist:

:|

can´t follow your sense of humor as well and this is definitely NOT the kind of discussion i´m into :!:
maybe - when u´re done with flaming and joking - u could form a normal english sentence contributing in an adult discussion.

thank you.................

[SFDMALEX]

and i won´t add here that the TT was 13sec faster............ :niet:


Well knowing how the 360 behaves at high speeds I'm not surprised at all that the TT was faster. Talking with some 360 Challenge drives its a sensitive bitch on the limit, it's fast but it takes a lot of fine skill to keep it from snapping on you.

[RAMMIUS]

@ GUCOM

BMI`s principal tester is Matahoru Kurosawa aka Gan San a very experienced driver and Ex F1 pilot.

They test on real circuits :wink: even Formula 1 like Suzuka, and when they test
non japanese cars they are objective , unlike their european counterparts.

Probably St Anger our Porsche expert wasn`t happy at all to see Porches beaten on track by older Ferrari`s , in circumstances defavourable for the cars produced in Maranello . meaning the car with the fastest time had the last position on the start grile.

But hey , just watch the video :mrgreen:

[nejcdolinsek]

IMO, Ferraris have never been faster than Porsches, but instead have always offered greater driving pleasure. Each have their own virtues.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

I recommend you to watch some Best Motoring videos to see how fing FAST Ferrari`s are compared to Porsche`s :twisted:

Hmmmm.... like the time a black 360 Modena got raped in a straight line by a turbo? Or the time the F430 barely won against the 380 hp GT3 RS clubsport? And besides, I was referring to track times. I really don't care about acceleration. These cars are supposed to be made for racing, so its a little scandalous that Ferraris are that much slower around tracks than Porsches. The two brands may be neck to neck on a short circuit, but the gap only widens (in favor for Porsche) with a longer track.

Listen, as you probably know, I LOVE Ferrari, and its not like I'm trying to diss them. All I'm doing is being completely objective. The numbers do not lie. And don't believe this "german magazines are completely biased" crap, because blaming others never really gives much weight to an argument.

[SFDMALEX]

If you think Best Motoring has anything to do with objective testing you have little clue. It's entertaining, but those laps have as much reference value as the Top Gear laptimes. Little to none.

D00de, the BM guys drive like shit, but they drive all cars equally shitty. I am amazed at how you put top gear and BM in the same boat...little to non reference? Sorry but if you think that way then I wont even bother to have a discussion.... :?

I always saw BM as entertainment but little to non reference like top gear? :?

[SFDMALEX]

as for the time, i too expected ferrari to be faster, and i too cant wait for hte 997TT's time on the 'Ring :D

It will be faster then the F-car. Porkers will always lap the ring faster then their couterpart F-car, is there even a logical reason for that not to be the case?

[SFDMALEX]

IMO, Ferraris have never been faster than Porsches, but instead have always offered greater driving pleasure. Each have their own virtues.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

I recommend you to watch some Best Motoring videos to see how fing FAST Ferrari`s are compared to Porsche`s :twisted:

Hmmmm.... like the time a black 360 Modena got raped in a straight line by a turbo? Or the time the F430 barely won against the 380 hp GT3 RS clubsport? And besides, I was referring to track times. I really don't care about acceleration. These cars are supposed to be made for racing, so its a little scandalous that Ferraris are that much slower around tracks than Porsches. The two brands may be neck to neck on a short circuit, but the gap only widens (in favor for Porsche) with a longer track.

Listen, as you probably know, I LOVE Ferrari, and its not like I'm trying to diss them. All I'm doing is being completely objective. The numbers do not lie. And don't believe this "german magazines are completely biased" crap, because blaming others never really gives much weight to an argument.

Mate, your being as objective as me on a drunk saturday night.

I cant believe you even mention the F430 Vs. Clubsport "battle". Did you watch that even? Did you follow the discussion when that video was posted? lol man.....

And when did that rappage of the 360 take place? Damn all I remeber is them having a slight difference but to the eye a car length or two looks like something major.

You say a second difference at short track somehow makes a car that much faster? Do you know what goes into setting a proper lap time? Some two auto mag reviewrs going at it having only 20 hours experiance in each car = nothing.

Like RC once said.....damn Im quoting RC here.......all the new sports cars Z06s, 991s, F-Cars are run so close together that its all down to the driver to make up the difference.

[SFDMALEX]

Hah - what a dissapointment. The acceleration was there but it cant even beat a Gallardo at Hockenheim with corsa tyres - that is nothing but horrible. Imagine what the Gallardo SE with corsa tyres and its shorter gear ratios will do to this thing, without even mentioning the 997 Turbo :roll: . Sorry, but the F430 got Gallardowned :lol:

That Audi junk wont be able to do jack shit to either the F430 or 997TT....Audi should stick to building Audis.

[SFDMALEX]

@ GUCOM

BMI`s principal tester is Matahoru Kurosawa aka Gan San a very experienced driver and Ex F1 pilot.

They test on real circuits :wink: even Formula 1 like Suzuka, and when they test
non japanese cars they are objective , unlike their european counterparts.

Probably St Anger our Porsche expert wasn`t happy at all to see Porches beaten on track by older Ferrari`s , in circumstances defavourable for the cars produced in Maranello . meaning the car with the fastest time had the last position on the start grile.

But hey , just watch the video :mrgreen:

Well mate sorry but BM drivers drive like shit most of the time :wink:

However it is completly wrong to put BM in the same boat as Top Gear.


BM can give you a good idea of a cars performance but nothing concrete.

[st-anger]

hmmm, whenever i see a BM "comparison" there´re......i don´t know 4 to 6 different drivers....... and all in all it´s more or less only show - i mean RAMMIUS i don´t know how skilled u are at the track meaning how many km´s your have done in sportscars - i can tell u i have done some 100k km in cars like they test there therefore i think i can rank a driver just seeing him driving quite good as i´m not the worst driver myself - and when i see some of their sliding around and just catastrophic car control and feel - well sorry but they should better attend a decent racing school first and then try again.
i don´t know if u´d be in but i bet any youngster out of our motorsport program would beat them head to head easily........easily!!!
u´re talking like u´re quite into all that stuff but unfortunately i don´t see your point why u rate them so high? can u please comment on that in your upcomming post, don´t get me wrong, i definitely don´t just want to prove u wrong i´m only interested on the details of your estimation :)

another thing i clearly remember - their chief test driver Kurosawa´s been to date the only tester complaining in that form on the CGT - well, what a pitty when he can only handle the soft boiled cars with all their el. aids - it´s always quite funny seeing that they ALL leave PSM / TC on and not off :wink: quite a good indicator on how ambitious they are when they want to lap a clocked time :lol: - what he criticised on the GT is just ridiculous and then he even bought one for himself........ :roll:
it´s been just a pain in the ass when i saw his clocked lap at Suzuka, he´s been FAR away from the limit of the car especially on the brake !!!

personally i don´t have a problem when they do......whatever...... and when EVERY Porsche would loose even against a Ford Transit in their tests :lol: it´s like that, that industry don´t care at all and so do we, the only independent respected source for comparison is Sport Auto and their Supertest and i couldn´t think of any argument against that.

of course i´m open for all questions on all this and would be more than happy to participate in that discussion further :P

[gangajas]

hmmm, whenever i see a BM "comparison" there´re......i don´t know 4 to 6 different drivers....... and all in all it´s more or less only show - i mean RAMMIUS i don´t know how skilled u are at the track meaning how many km´s your have done in sportscars - i can tell u i have done some 100k km in cars like they test there therefore i think i can rank a driver just seeing him driving quite good as i´m not the worst driver myself - and when i see some of their sliding around and just catastrophic car control and feel - well sorry but they should better attend a decent racing school first and then try again.
i don´t know if u´d be in but i bet any youngster out of our motorsport program would beat them head to head easily........easily!!!


You must be joking :shock: :shock: :shock:

What the hell are you saying?????

They are professional racers. Some of them have won at Le Mans, others have won the GT500 and the Super Taikyu.

[gucom]

Hah - what a dissapointment. The acceleration was there but it cant even beat a Gallardo at Hockenheim with corsa tyres - that is nothing but horrible. Imagine what the Gallardo SE with corsa tyres and its shorter gear ratios will do to this thing, without even mentioning the 997 Turbo :roll: . Sorry, but the F430 got Gallardowned :lol:

That Audi junk wont be able to do jack shit to either the F430 or 997TT....Audi should stick to building Audis.

sorry m8 but thats simply a stupid comment, i dont think its necessary for me to explain why... :roll:

[golfiste]

it is simple whait is yellow and comes from the rising sun is banned on jabba

[st-anger]

hmmm, whenever i see a BM "comparison" there´re......i don´t know 4 to 6 different drivers....... and all in all it´s more or less only show - i mean RAMMIUS i don´t know how skilled u are at the track meaning how many km´s your have done in sportscars - i can tell u i have done some 100k km in cars like they test there therefore i think i can rank a driver just seeing him driving quite good as i´m not the worst driver myself - and when i see some of their sliding around and just catastrophic car control and feel - well sorry but they should better attend a decent racing school first and then try again.
i don´t know if u´d be in but i bet any youngster out of our motorsport program would beat them head to head easily........easily!!!


You must be joking :shock: :shock: :shock:

What the hell are you saying?????

They are professional racers. Some of them have won at Le Mans, others have won the GT500 and the Super Taikyu.

... i think without a racecar background they wouldn´t let them drive those tests and it definitely look good on the paper BUT i think we needn´t talk about the quality of their driving in the tests which is more or less a "let´s go out have fun" thing and not 110% concentrated on a real lap time :wink:
personally i think the main aim of BM should be entertaining track driving - and what´s so bad about that anyways - but again - this driving and the result is far away from a decent test and a decent test is ONLY a valid lap time when talking about such cars...
compare this with e.g. a lap of TG´s "Stigg" i mean this guy is also a bit too much sideways for my taste in their videos - therefore slower...but well...

in the end they may be all good drivers and even when they´ve been F1 drivers (which has nothing to do with sports car driving :wink: ) - in their "shows" their hard work for a good lap time ranking cars is more or less only show... :)

[SFDMALEX]

Hah - what a dissapointment. The acceleration was there but it cant even beat a Gallardo at Hockenheim with corsa tyres - that is nothing but horrible. Imagine what the Gallardo SE with corsa tyres and its shorter gear ratios will do to this thing, without even mentioning the 997 Turbo :roll: . Sorry, but the F430 got Gallardowned :lol:

That Audi junk wont be able to do jack shit to either the F430 or 997TT....Audi should stick to building Audis.

sorry m8 but thats simply a stupid comment, i dont think its necessary for me to explain why... :roll:

Stupid comment? How? Audi should stop trying to build super cars.

[SFDMALEX]

You must be joking :shock: :shock: :shock:

What the hell are you saying?????

They are professional racers. Some of them have won at Le Mans, others have won the GT500 and the Super Taikyu.

Doode listen to the man. They fucking suck! But they still arent as bad as Stig and top gear lap times.

[RAMMIUS]

There are some medium drivers there , but they only get the toys , the real cars are driven by competent drivers , in Japan this is how stuff works .

another thing i clearly remember - their chief test driver Kurosawa´s been to date the only tester complaining in that form on the CGT - what he criticised on the GT is just ridiculous and then he even bought one for himself........


Maybe he`s not the typical european ass kisser , and the guy knows a thing or two :wink: about how a sports car should be ?

I`ll give him credit :wink:
And I think he bought the car before testing that one .


it´s been just a pain in the ass when i saw his clocked lap at Suzuka, he´s been FAR away from the limit of the car especially on the brake !!!


Don`t mind if I ask , but how many laps of Suzuka do you have ? :roll:
Maybe he knows a little bit more than you , especially on that track , maybe the brakes didn`t reach the optimum temperature , or maybe he was just trying to know the car .



First you said

and when i see some of their sliding around


and then


it´s always quite funny seeing that they ALL leave PSM / TC on and not off



so these japanese drivers are quite good , if they manage to powerslide with PSM/TC put ON. :lol:

Not to mention that some don`t have nothing to switch off : the F40 and F50 that beat the crap out of Porsche .

Of course St Anger , youi`re a Porsche employee , very good for you , I don`t expect you to be objective :wink:

Take care

[SFDMALEX]

/\/\/\ Why are you even arguing mate? Do you watch how they drive? I couldnt care less if Micheal Shcumaher himself drive on BM the way they drive is not the proper way period!

And for your information most times Porkers win in BM.

[RAMMIUS]

^^^ nobody is arguing man :) just a decent conversation

I agree that some of them aren`t the best drivers but the others know their business.


And for your information most times Porkers win in BM.


I HIGHLY recommend (probably you have in the vault :wink: ) the 2000 edition with Ferrari vs Porsche .

Check it :wink:

[st-anger]

...u´re trying to tell me he is the straightedge what´s a sports car and which is not ???
he´s been the first complaining on the GT - on points all the others - also including Ferrari btw, how strage :wink: - told it´s just perfect....???....sorry but i can´t see your point here ?!

lol, of course i have NONE at Suzuka, but when i hear your comments i think u also have NONE experience on track driving at all - no warm brakes??? trying knowing the car??? all that on a clocked time??? my friend it´s better u stop arguing on things u´re probably a bit out-of knowledge but of course u can keep on, i won´t forbid it... :)

isn´t it like that ???
hope u know that systems like PSM allow a certain amount of transversal slip, calculated on the tires grip level, so u CAN go sideways in a Porsche up to a certain level - 17% if u want to know precise - but i think we agree that even 10% is NOT good for a good lap time and i haven´t talked about powerslides meaning slip percentages of over 30% - but i guess u´re also familiar with this...

definitely, i´m 110% with u that a F40,50 beats the sh** out of most of the Porsches, i never told anything different...
BUT the key word is "most" :wink:

well, u can see it this way, ok, seems like u don´t know me then :wink:
my work has nothing to do with my opinion on cars - u can believe that or not for sure - but again i´d like to invite u to give me some profound knowledge on WHY u think u can hold such declarations ?!

maybe u can tell me something about your background so that we can intensify the discussion a bit, would be my pleasure :)

[RAMMIUS]

...u´re trying to tell me he is the straightedge what´s a sports car and which is not ???


I think you`re forgeting one important thing : a lot of editors complained about the stiffnes of the clutch pedal .
Maybe with his background , Gan San knows a little bit more , than your average Joe.


lol, of course i have NONE at Suzuka, but when i hear your comments i think u also have NONE experience on track driving at all - no warm brakes??? trying knowing the car??? all that on a clocked time??? my friend it´s better u stop arguing on things u´re probably a bit out-of knowledge but of course u can keep on, i won´t forbid it...



Excuse me mister Porsche expert , but CGT has PCCB ( Porsche Composite Ceramic Brakes) they should be warmed to get the maximum performance out of them.
Correct me if i`am wrong.

YES trying to know/fell the car . Let me guess , if you`ll drive an MC 12 for the first time around a racing track , you`ll go full power from the first lap ? :lol: , or you`ll try to see how the brakes works, how it turns and so on.


definitely, i´m 110% with u that a F40,50 beats the sh** out of most of the Porsches, i never told anything different...
BUT the key word is "most"


An F40 from 1988 versus a 1998 GT2 , (isn`t the Porsche 10 years younger ?), the Porsche starting in face of the Ferrari and losing , similar power & torque figures.

That`s one example.


lol, of course i have NONE at Suzuka, but when i hear your comments i think u also have NONE experience on track driving at all



Well I see why your nick it`s St Anger :wink: you`re becoming irritated .

I mean , your Jabba`s Porsche expert and you`ve driven the CGT , so how can I say that these japanese have objective tests , you`ve seen 1 or 2 power sliding with a NSX and now you`re certain that they all are annoying shity bastards.

I say you should try and make the difference between them. Just a hint :)

[st-anger]

... :bah: hmmm, i´m sorry to see your willingness for a decent discussion is retrogressive with every post, but well...

...i mean........u must be joking comming with that "complaint" - "the stiffness of the clutch" :mrgreen:

buddy.......ever been in a race car ???
most likely not - i think u also have no idea about the PCCC - along with all the editors complaining about it, i recommend to ask ppl knowing at least a bit about such systems and then u may decide again.......deal ???
:wink:



indeed it has - completely forgot :lol:

as i´m not becoming irritated - why should i, i know i´m right and 20 years in automotive industry and "quite some" experience are on my side, sorry - it´s my pleasure to explain u the one or other thing HOW such a test is carried out normally, and let´s take the GT example - u wanted to tell me the brakes were somehow "cold", ok, as a skilled driver with F1 background he definitely knows that u have to brake ceramic brakes warm within a intro lap, this is no problem on the GT as the get warm quite soon as this is a road car and not a racing one were the rotors need more constant heat than the PCCBs, first point, second point and more important one, the tires, as u seem to know quite a lot u surely know that the P0-spec Michelins need at least 2.4 bar to "work" properly, i´m again sure someone told mr. Kurosawa that - and then with warm brakes and tires he could have braked later before many many corners but after the test i think he said he isn´t that familiar with the GT - and here we are, the next point, beeing familiar with the car, i think u won´t tell me that Kurosawa wanted to "get familiar" with the GT on his clocked lap and therefore braked "a bit" earlier every now and then, maybe it´s better when u FIRST get warm tires/rotors and used to a car before u want to compete against others :!:

well, am i right or not ???
since u haven´t answered my questions on all that i think it´s a "yes" and then it´s more or less obvious to me that u can only re-tell what u see and read on tv/mags - which isn´t a bad thing of course - but then u´re not open for some different insights from the real world - well your bad :|

last, i think we should definitely correct that as i never said they are "all annoying shity bastards" MY discussion base was and is that those test have nothing to do with a benchmarking of sportscars and are just entertaining for the mass, i think we both agree here and if not, well...end of discussion i´m afraid, as i know it´s like that and u just think u know without any background and i can´t go into greater details with so less knowledge on such complex things, sorry...

nevertheless, looking forward to another constructive discussion with u on another topic as u seem to have a really firm opinion on things which is basically a good thing :)

[nthfinity]

wow, i missed some good discussion...

TG, and BM are definatley entertainment reference for track conditions... well, Gan San was dealing with a CGT press car, which many have suspected of running softer settings then what the final production car may carry... explaining why he said some of what he said... and seeing videos of breaking points on other tracks in a CGT... its easier to estimate how well that car is able to stop... and definately on the BM suzuka attack... he wasnt going all that fast.

as somebody with very very minimal track experience (1 day... 1amazing day!) you can tell especially in BM that the drivers are doing so much for show, with clear pointings at making JDM cars seem much better then they actually are.... much like TG pushes Jags and Astons way more then the ever ought to. Basically... making a car look fast doesnt mean the car is going fast... some of us have been speculating that even int TG, they just edit various footage of running the air-field spliced together from what 'looks best' and it wouldn't suprise me one bit... that was something they couldn't do at all when they were mixing telemetry data in the original laps. pity.

in general, I love Ferrari... and perhaps more then Porsche... but i would much rather own a Porker equivilant and i am definately looking forward to the upcoming 997 T, and GT3 :twisted: i know im almost 100% guarenteed some up close time with turbo... and some of the F cars as well :-D

hey, st-anger, im interested in what may be expected at Suzuka with a CGT... i know thats not exactly something i really expect have happened or know, but i do wonder if PAG tested the CGT on their track dyno for various tracks around the world? its something that has been done with race cars of years past... and i wonder if this was included in the CGT's development?

[bmagni]

long nonsense discussion :P
its just a time from one track, so relax, though its far away from its competitors but its just a single test, which doesnt mean much... but well i was expecting it to be close to the Z06...
cant wait for that scan st-anger !

[dingo]

Hah - what a dissapointment. The acceleration was there but it cant even beat a Gallardo at Hockenheim with corsa tyres - that is nothing but horrible. Imagine what the Gallardo SE with corsa tyres and its shorter gear ratios will do to this thing, without even mentioning the 997 Turbo :roll: . Sorry, but the F430 got Gallardowned :lol:

That Audi junk wont be able to do jack shit to either the F430 or 997TT....Audi should stick to building Audis.

sorry m8 but thats simply a stupid comment, i dont think its necessary for me to explain why... :roll:

Stupid comment? How? Audi should stop trying to build super cars.

Have you actually spent any seat time in a Gallardo?

Can you please explain to me what I was imagining when I was in the Gallardo, what exactly is it that makes it "junk"?

[st-anger]

...besides the Nordschleife the GT´s only been tested on Weissach´s own track, Spa and of course Leipzig...

[LotusGT1]

D00de, the BM guys drive like shit, but they drive all cars equally shitty. I am amazed at how you put top gear and BM in the same boat...little to non reference? Sorry but if you think that way then I wont even bother to have a discussion.... :?

I always saw BM as entertainment but little to non reference like top gear? :?

Cute how you won't bother to have a discussion with me. However, if you knew how a BM race was set up you would talk differently.

Have you seen f.e. the M3 E46, Skyline, S2000, 350Z, Boxster video? I'll use it to illustrate my point. In this video drivers were blocking eachother ( drivers with different capabilities anyway) and some were constantly drifting. The Skyline (used as camera car) was fucking up the race anyway as it blocked half the cars continuously.

The drivers seen in BM are definately not bad, but all have different capacities and favorites. In a race it's harder to show the pace of the car ALONE per definition, simply for the fact that in these kind of shoot-outs there are tons of factors influencing laptimes and the results. You can't rule out the capacity the car has, which makes it hard to compare objectively.

In that way BM typically resembles Top Gear. TG uses one driver, but laps the cars under all kinds of different weather conditions. Also JC's personal preference is obvious in every episode. Entertaining yes, objective hardly.

Let me add the N-ring laptimes aren't set in stone either because of the same reason (different circumstances, differet factors influencing laptimes) but SportAuto at least tries to rule out as much possible factors as possible. At least they use the same driver and seek for similar weather conditions.

I won't bother to comment on your Audi comments as it shows you talk on a level I don't want to discuss on. If you think you can manage to actually discuss giving proper reasons why you believe certain things I'm willing to respond, but I don't like to discuss with guys replying like 9-year-olds.

And for future reference, at least TRY to get all your comments in one post, not 5 consecutive.

[|Nuno|]

Interesting... SA always seems to get very poor number with non-German cars, especially Ferraris and Vettes, but usually the not so good track results are also followed by poor acceleration numbers. This time, however, things are different - the acceleration numbers are good, but the track times aren't.

I noticed some weird things though... First of all, they "forgot" to mention that the tyres used were Pirelli P-Zero Corsa System, and not just Corsa... Hell, the Corsas aren't even availiable in the F430's size yet! That's a big difference righ there - the Corsas are much better than the Corsa System for track driving. I'd put the Corsas in the R compound category and the Corsa System somewhere between them and normal high performance street tyres. Yes, they're better than say the P Zero Rossos, but not THAT much. And I wonder why they fitted the car with them in the first place... :hmm: Judging by one of the pics in the scan (the windtunnel one), the car came with the regualr tyres, so it was SA's decision to fit the car with different tyres, I assume...? They did something similar with the M6, but in that test they timed the BMW with the Corsas (those yes, the "real" Corsas) and then with the regular tyres around the 'Ring, and surprise surprise, the Corsas didn't improve the time 'round the Ring...

Now, the 'Ring is in Germany and Porsche is German, so it's natural that their cars are faster than the equivalent Ferrari or Lamborghini over there, but an F430 with sportier tyres only 1 second faster than a 996 Turbo with 70 hp less and 150 Kg more...? Sorry, but unless the conditions on the Ferrari's test weren't the best, I don't buy it. And I didn't see any mention of that, so.

Hell, when Auto Zeitung tested the Turbo S and the F430 back to back, on their track the F430 (with regular tyres) was 1.6 seconds faster, this on a ~ 1:37 lap... Yes I know, totally different tracks, but still.


But here's what I found most interesting of all:


- 360 Modena:

Speed at Galgenkopf: 140 Km/h /// Speed at Doettinger Hoehe (top speed):257 Km/h

- Challenge Stradale:

Galgenkopf: 125 Km/h /// Doettinger Hoehe: 271 Km/h

- F430:

Galgenkopf:135 km/h /// Doettinger Hoehe: 273 Km/h


So, the CS, with only 25 hp more than the Modena and an exit speed of 15 Km/h less at Galgenkopf manages a 14 Km/h superior top speed, but the F430, with 65 more hp than the CS and a 10 Km/h higher exit speed at Galgenkopf only clocks 2 more Km/h than the CS?!?! :? Am I the only one who finds this strange? :hmm: Even stranger if you see that at Fuchsroehre, the Stradale is doing 232 Km/h, while the F430 does 255 Km/h...!

[SFDMALEX]

Hah - what a dissapointment. The acceleration was there but it cant even beat a Gallardo at Hockenheim with corsa tyres - that is nothing but horrible. Imagine what the Gallardo SE with corsa tyres and its shorter gear ratios will do to this thing, without even mentioning the 997 Turbo :roll: . Sorry, but the F430 got Gallardowned :lol:

That Audi junk wont be able to do jack shit to either the F430 or 997TT....Audi should stick to building Audis.

sorry m8 but thats simply a stupid comment, i dont think its necessary for me to explain why... :roll:

Stupid comment? How? Audi should stop trying to build super cars.

Have you actually spent any seat time in a Gallardo?

Can you please explain to me what I was imagining when I was in the Gallardo, what exactly is it that makes it "junk"?

Ah for Christ sake mate. Is everthing to you about numbers man?

If our hobby was about numbers then it would be boring as fuck! Get it?

I dont give a shit about how fast or how good a Galardo is. to me its a fucking audi, ugly car that doesnt make me wet my pants like a Diablo. Take it as you want.

Rant over.......sheesshhh

[SFDMALEX]

D00de, the BM guys drive like shit, but they drive all cars equally shitty. I am amazed at how you put top gear and BM in the same boat...little to non reference? Sorry but if you think that way then I wont even bother to have a discussion.... :?

I always saw BM as entertainment but little to non reference like top gear? :?

Cute how you won't bother to have a discussion with me. However, if you knew how a BM race was set up you would talk differently.

Have you seen f.e. the M3 E46, Skyline, S2000, 350Z, Boxster video? I'll use it to illustrate my point. In this video drivers were blocking eachother ( drivers with different capabilities anyway) and some were constantly drifting. The Skyline (used as camera car) was fucking up the race anyway as it blocked half the cars continuously.

The drivers seen in BM are definately not bad, but all have different capacities and favorites. In a race it's harder to show the pace of the car ALONE per definition, simply for the fact that in these kind of shoot-outs there are tons of factors influencing laptimes and the results. You can't rule out the capacity the car has, which makes it hard to compare objectively.

In that way BM typically resembles Top Gear. TG uses one driver, but laps the cars under all kinds of different weather conditions. Also JC's personal preference is obvious in every episode. Entertaining yes, objective hardly.

Let me add the N-ring laptimes aren't set in stone either because of the same reason (different circumstances, differet factors influencing laptimes) but SportAuto at least tries to rule out as much possible factors as possible. At least they use the same driver and seek for similar weather conditions.

I won't bother to comment on your Audi comments as it shows you talk on a level I don't want to discuss on. If you think you can manage to actually discuss giving proper reasons why you believe certain things I'm willing to respond, but I don't like to discuss with guys replying like 9-year-olds.

And for future reference, at least TRY to get all your comments in one post, not 5 consecutive.

Look mate, what is there to argue? I have every single BM vid that ever hit the net in my collection. Prolly about 50 cds, of full episodes. I love BM, but it doesnt take a genious to see that their driving is far from what a proper drive around the track should be.

It is good intertainment and a vague indicator of cars performance but thats about it.

However its not as bad as Top Gear.

[SFDMALEX]

Interesting... SA always seems to get very poor number with non-German cars, especially Ferraris and Vettes, but usually the not so good track results are also followed by poor acceleration numbers. This time, however, things are different - the acceleration numbers are good, but the track times aren't.

I noticed some weird things though... First of all, they "forgot" to mention that the tyres used were Pirelli P-Zero Corsa System, and not just Corsa... Hell, the Corsas aren't even availiable in the F430's size yet! That's a big difference righ there - the Corsas are much better than the Corsa System for track driving. I'd put the Corsas in the R compound category and the Corsa System somewhere between them and normal high performance street tyres. Yes, they're better than say the P Zero Rossos, but not THAT much. And I wonder why they fitted the car with them in the first place... :hmm: Judging by one of the pics in the scan (the windtunnel one), the car came with the regualr tyres, so it was SA's decision to fit the car with different tyres, I assume...? They did something similar with the M6, but in that test they timed the BMW with the Corsas (those yes, the "real" Corsas) and then with the regular tyres around the 'Ring, and surprise surprise, the Corsas didn't improve the time 'round the Ring...

Now, the 'Ring is in Germany and Porsche is German, so it's natural that their cars are faster than the equivalent Ferrari or Lamborghini over there, but an F430 with sportier tyres only 1 second faster than a 996 Turbo with 70 hp less and 150 Kg more...? Sorry, but unless the conditions on the Ferrari's test weren't the best, I don't buy it. And I didn't see any mention of that, so.

Hell, when Auto Zeitung tested the Turbo S and the F430 back to back, on their track the F430 (with regular tyres) was 1.6 seconds faster, this on a ~ 1:37 lap... Yes I know, totally different tracks, but still.


But here's what I found most interesting of all:


- 360 Modena:

Speed at Galgenkopf: 140 Km/h /// Speed at Doettinger Hoehe (top speed):257 Km/h

- Challenge Stradale:

Galgenkopf: 125 Km/h /// Doettinger Hoehe: 271 Km/h

- F430:

Galgenkopf:135 km/h /// Doettinger Hoehe: 273 Km/h


So, the CS, with only 25 hp more than the Modena and an exit speed of 15 Km/h less at Galgenkopf manages a 14 Km/h superior top speed, but the F430, with 65 more hp than the CS and a 10 Km/h higher exit speed at Galgenkopf only clocks 2 more Km/h than the CS?!?! :? Am I the only one who finds this strange? :hmm: Even stranger if you see that at Fuchsroehre, the Stradale is doing 232 Km/h, while the F430 does 255 Km/h...!

Wow now that you say all this damn...

I dunno wtf SA did but it clearly doesnt make sense.

Oh well...... :roll:

[|Nuno|]

^^

Yeah, I usually don't even pay much attention to this 'Ring times stuff, but this one got me wondering...

[SFDMALEX]

I really dont undersand how Galgenkopf exit speed is the F430 is slower then the Modenas, and the CS is even slower then that....I mean really...... :roll:

HOnestly with the information you gave above I will no longer take anything SA seriously.

[SFDMALEX]

The Nürburgring is a very variable racetrack... may be there was some humidity, or it was dry and sunny when the Modena was tested, I don't know. For sure makes you wonder...


Indeed, if all of the above have such a major impact on times then are all of the Nordscheleife times even relivant? :wink: Withouht consitancy its pointless if you ask me. Its one thing on a short track, but a long one?....

[ice]

Im with you. The 'Ring, in my eyes, has always been just far too big with far too many variables each run to ever provide a solid standard between cars. Also, on a track like the Ring, neutral AWD handling (ie:Gallardo, 911 turbo) will be better suited than the RWD F430.

[JoeHahn]

I really dont undersand how Galgenkopf exit speed is the F430 is slower then the Modenas, and the CS is even slower then that....I mean really...... :roll:

HOnestly with the information you gave above I will no longer take anything SA seriously.

Obviously it was a typo - maybe 120kph instead of 140kph?

[coloradosilver]

Hahaha! What a POS. The looks are there (IMO) and the sound is there, but the car is a slug around the track (for what it is, or what it's supposed to be).

I'm sticking with my assment that the new Z06 is still the way to go for the performance orientated entheuisast. Paying 100K more for a ferrari that can't keep up is something that someone might do just so they can say "Hey, I own an f430".

For the biggest performance value in the maret, the new z06 can't be beat.

F-430, What a joke.

[bmagni]

Hahaha! What a POS. The looks are there (IMO) and the sound is there, but the car is a slug around the track (for what it is, or what it's supposed to be).

I'm sticking with my assment that the new Z06 is still the way to go for the performance orientated entheuisast. Paying 100K more for a ferrari that can't keep up is something that someone might do just so they can say "Hey, I own an f430".

For the biggest performance value in the maret, the new z06 can't be beat.

F-430, What a joke.

fanboy :D
you're based in just a lap around the ring...
i bet if the z06 comes to be slower in the supertest u'll start saying lots of different stuff

[nthfinity]

fanboy
you're based in just a lap around the ring...
i bet if the z06 comes to be slower in the supertest u'll start saying lots of different stuff

concider this:
nobody else has run the ring hard in a F430 with the CCB, and sticky tires... HvS was the first... and Ferrari didnt test (at least much?) there

the C6, and new Z06 was tested on multiple race tracks around the world, including several weeks at NS... and they published thier results for 7:42.9 hot lap. HvS im nearly 100% sure is going to try to come close to that time (mabey without getting so out of hand-jumping lol)



Im with you. The 'Ring, in my eyes, has always been just far too big with far too many variables each run to ever provide a solid standard between cars. Also, on a track like the Ring, neutral AWD handling (ie:Gallardo, 911 turbo) will be better suited than the RWD F430.


also, the GT 3 in 996 trim is nearly faster then the new F430 with RWD and 100 less hp on tap... cars tuned on F1 race tracks alone wont performn nearly as well on a bumpy track like NS.

[|Nuno|]

Obviously it was a typo - maybe 120kph instead of 140kph?


No typo. Check www.track-challenge.com (all the tests there are from Sport Auto) if you still have any doubts, and the scans section for the F430 test. :wink:


the C6, and new Z06 was tested on multiple race tracks around the world, including several weeks at NS... and they published thier results for 7:42.9 hot lap. HvS im nearly 100% sure is going to try to come close to that time (mabey without getting so out of hand-jumping lol)

Will it? I doubt it mate. :wink:

Since you mentioned the C6, wasn't GM claiming it'd do a 7:59 lap...? And what did it do when SA tested it? 8:15, right? That's a 16 seconds difference. So, either GM was bullshitting and the C6 is a "POS", as someone eloquentely put it, or HVS wasn't trying too hard. I'll leave it for you to decide...

My guess is that when SA tests the Z06, it'll do somewhere between 7:51 and 8:00 minutes. But for the 997 Turbo, I'm thinking somewhere between 7:49 and 7:44... But by then people will probably "remember" all of a sudden that the results can't be compared because the 'Ring is a huge track with such variable conditions, and the cars weren't tested at the same time, etc... :P I could be wrong, obviously, but judging from previous tests, I doubt it.


cars tuned on F1 race tracks alone wont performn nearly as well on a bumpy track like NS.

Now this I don't understand. If you were talking about the Enzo or even the Stradale, then ok, but the F430? Really, I don't know where the idea that Ferraris are tuned on F1 tracks comes from... Save a few exceptions, the cars are tuned mainly on the street, NOT on Fiorano. Why do you think the hills around Modena are so famous? :wink: Fiorano, Monza, Muggelo, etc are just a part of the testing.

Just ask anyone who owns both a Ferrari and a (rear engined) Porsche which is faster, or more stable in the bumps. (Hint: the answer doesn't start with a "P"). :wink:

So, in theory, the Porsche (because of the rear engine setup) shouldn't be that fast in a bumpy track like the 'Ring? But it is - how come? :wink: Maybe the bumps aren't THAT important. Imagine that...

[SFDMALEX]

F-430, What a joke.

I'm sorry but I cant think no differnt of YOU as a joke when you jump to such conclusions based on.....what ever the heck you base it on...Here is every single car mag proclaiming the F430 to be "the best card in the world" and then you call it a joke.

It's ok if you like to hug the Z06 nuts but give credit where its due. Calling your self an enthusiast and then calling the F-430 a joke is well....a joke :wink:

By the way I bet the Z06 will do better just cause this lap of full of bullshit and doesnt make any sense.

[coloradosilver]

F-430, What a joke.

I'm sorry but I cant think no differnt of YOU as a joke when you jump to such conclusions based on.....what ever the heck you base it on...Here is every single car mag proclaiming the F430 to be "the best card in the world" and then you call it a joke.

It's ok if you like to hug the Z06 nuts but give credit where its due. Calling your self an enthusiast and then calling the F-430 a joke is well....a joke :wink:

By the way I bet the Z06 will do better just cause this lap of full of bullshit and doesnt make any sense.

Easy there. I said that I thought that the F430 was a joke and your remark is that I am a joke? That doesn't say much for your level of intellectual ability here. Personal attacks I don't think are warranted or appreciated.

My whole point is that you can have a car that is 1/3 the price of the ferrari and get better performance. So far the Z06 has the ferrari beat in every performance test done. I don't think your remark about "every car mag says the f430 is the best car in the world" is anywhere near the truth. I can think of plenty of cars that have been built that are better. In my opinion, the Z06 is one of them.

If you can justify your point in how the Ferrari is better (performance wise) or give me a list of every car mag saying with quotes about the ferrari being the best car in the world, your claim may be validated, but I seriously doubt that you can do that.

I have already conceded in my previous post that the ferrari may sound and look better, even the build quality is better than the Z06. But where performance is the issue...the ferrari looses to many other cars. If we now factor price into that equation, the Z06 is the way to go.

[RAMMIUS]

Hahaha! What a POS. The looks are there (IMO) and the sound is there, but the car is a slug around the track (for what it is, or what it's supposed to be).

I'm sticking with my assment that the new Z06 is still the way to go for the performance orientated entheuisast. Paying 100K more for a ferrari that can't keep up is something that someone might do just so they can say "Hey, I own an f430".

For the biggest performance value in the maret, the new z06 can't be beat.

F-430, What a joke.

The direct competitor of the Z06 it`s gonna be the Ferrari 600 , due to appear in 2006.

They have the same layout : big dispalcement, front mounted engines with RWD.

How can you compare a high displacement engine like Vette`s 7 litre with a 4.3 litre .
A little detail : 7 it`s wayyyy bigger that 4.3 , remember ?

I really like to see what you`ll say when Ferrari`s 600 will make the Z06 look slow and badly engineered :twisted:

About performance numbers , take a look at Road&Track :twisted:

Vette :

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0512_rivals_data_panel.pdf

and :

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0501_ferrari_data_panel.pdf


wooooow , superior figures for the Ferrari , what do you know , hmmmmm definetly a conspiration . :lol:

[RAMMIUS]

The new Ferrari 600 will be bigger, heavier... and probably slower around a track



Would you like to bet that it`s gonna be faster than the Z 06 ? :P


since they have the same spirit



What`s the same spirit ? :?

Central mounted engine vs front , high revv (F430 490 @ 8500rpm) vs medium revv (505 @ 6300rpm) and way bigger displacement .
And let`s not forget the different transmissions.

BTW , did somebody knows how much downforce the Z06 generates at 300km/h ?

I really don`t see the same spirit. :)

[LotusGT1]

Look mate, what is there to argue? I have every single BM vid that ever hit the net in my collection. Prolly about 50 cds, of full episodes. I love BM, but it doesnt take a genious to see that their driving is far from what a proper drive around the track should be.

It is good intertainment and a vague indicator of cars performance but thats about it.

However its not as bad as Top Gear.

As a reference for comparing cars based on performance both formats equally suck as they both are "vague" at best. Discussing which format is "vaguer" or suck more is a moot point. Both suck for objective comparing. It doesn't take a scientist to figure that out. And that was the initial point of discussion.

Hahaha! What a POS. The looks are there (IMO) and the sound is there, but the car is a slug around the track (for what it is, or what it's supposed to be).

I'm sticking with my assment that the new Z06 is still the way to go for the performance orientated entheuisast. Paying 100K more for a ferrari that can't keep up is something that someone might do just so they can say "Hey, I own an f430".

For the biggest performance value in the maret, the new z06 can't be beat.

F-430, What a joke.

Load of BS. The F430 does perfectly what it's supposed to do. It offers great performance and gives you an awe-inspiring vibe. It also gives you the pleasure of driving a Ferrari with all luxuries included. The package is great if you want to pay for it.

Z06 is a totally different car. New it's hard to beat on price/performance, but it does offer totally different experiences. Just as cool, but different. For arguments sake you could say it's a special version of the C6 whereas it should be compared to the upcoming F430 CS, but there's no point really.

If you want true performance go buy a second hand base car tuning the shit out of it. Built a track car if you want hardcore performance. For a quarter of the price it will slap the F430, Z06 or whatever you want to bring on in its face like there's no tomorrow.

There's no point in comparing a $75k Corvette with a $200k Ferrari. Different strokes for different folks. Few people will actually decide between the 2 and most people with those budgets will buy another car for daily commuting.

Silly discussion really.


The direct competitor of the Z06 it`s gonna be the Ferrari 600 , due to appear in 2006.

They have the same layout : big dispalcement, front mounted engines with RWD.

How can you compare a high displacement engine like Vette`s 7 litre with a 4.3 litre .
A little detail : 7 it`s wayyyy bigger that 4.3 , remember ?

I really like to see what you`ll say when Ferrari`s 600 will make the Z06 look slow and badly engineered :twisted:


Besides the flawed logic with comparing a big Ferrari GT to a more hardcore american sportscar the last sentence of your post really baffles me.
It would be quite a fucking disgrace when a $300k would be engineered worse than a $75k car.

That's like pointing and laughing how an Clio suckes because an S-class Mercedes offers more ride quality. Totally fucking pointless and a nice display of stupidity.

[RAMMIUS]

^^^ mate you really have an attitude problem :lol:

I strongly recommend a girl :wink:

BTW , next time try to bring some real argumnets , leave the rethorics aside.

Cheers

[coloradosilver]

Load of BS. The F430 does perfectly what it's supposed to do. It offers great performance and gives you an awe-inspiring vibe. It also gives you the pleasure of driving a Ferrari with all luxuries included. The package is great if you want to pay for it.

You're totally missing my point here. I'm not saying that the Z06 is the better car. I'm saying that if you're strictly concerned with performance, why would someone pay an extra $150K for a car that can't keep up with the Z06. The only reason I can think of is so they can say that they have a ferrari.

I already conceided that ferrari has better build quality and, um, well, thats about all it has better of. But the point is that if the only requirement an entheusiast has is performance, they'd be a fool to pay that much more for a car that isn't as good in that respect.

[RC45]

Wow - yet another flat-F1-track tuned Ferrari sucks majorly in the real world.

7m55s? That's 1 second SLOWER than the C5 Z06, and 10s+ slower than the C6 Z06.

With all that R&D, money and technology the new Ferrari sports car cannot even out do a budget mass produced sports car on a European track?

Now we KNOW the F430 is only being bought by posers and hairdressers.

Did we mention the C6 Z06 lapped with stock run-flat tyres :P

What a dissapointment this F430 is turning out to be - it's just an expensive trinket for the rich and famous to play with.

It sure is a apity that one of the cars all the posers and wannabes online aspire for is a just a wallory overweight underpowered slow arsed pig :P :) ;)

Why not face up to it silly Ferrari Fan-Boys - they are way over rated.

Looks like Porsche and Z06 are the last true sportscars around. While Porsche is an entire brand,, remember Z06 is just a single model.

You better not bet on that 600 holding the flag - it's just another lump lke the 550 and 575 - outclassed and outgunned in the real world... like the Nurburgring :)

Long live the GT2/GT3 and the Z06. :)

[coloradosilver]

Wow - yet another flat-F1-track tuned Ferrari sucks majorly in the real world.

7m55s? That's 1 second SLOWER than the C5 Z06, and 10s+ slower than the C6 Z06.

With all that R&D, money and technology the new Ferrari sports car cannot even out do a budget mass produced sports car on a European track?

Now we KNOW the F430 is only being bought by posers and hairdressers.

Did we mention the C6 Z06 lapped with stock run-flat tyres :P

What a dissapointment this F430 is turning out to be - it's just an expensive trinket for the rich and famous to play with.

It sure is a apity that one of the cars all the posers and wannabes online aspire for is a just a wallory overweight underpowered slow arsed pig :P :) ;)

Why not face up to it silly Ferrari Fan-Boys - they are way over rated.

Looks like Porsche and Z06 are the last true sportscars around. While Porsche is an entire brand,, remember Z06 is just a single model.

You better not bet on that 600 holding the flag - it's just another lump lke the 550 and 575 - outclassed and outgunned in the real world... like the Nurburgring :)

Long live the GT2/GT3 and the Z06. :)

Damnit RC.....Where were you for the beginning of this argument? I've been trying to hold the hill by myself here for sometime now. Nice to have reinforcements now though. :wink:

[RC45]

Damnit RC.....Where were you for the beginning of this argument? I've been trying to hold the hill by myself here for sometime now. Nice to have reinforcements now though. :wink:

Where was I? Out enjoying my red-neck chariot while running some errands. Now I get back and find out that not only am I out driving while others are dreaming - but I am driving what for all intents and purposes blows their worshipped chariot into the weeds.. ;)

But I digress, the hread was about how one of the arguably most experienced and skilled drivers in the world, struggled to post a half decent track time in what is supposed to be the epitomy of ferrari road going engineering.

What a joke... ;) Just as the Z06 is made more "European" to appeal to snobs, and laps their on yardstick track quicker than most every other road car can - the F430 gets heavier, slower, weaker and more wallory and soft to appeal to an American audience... :P ;)

Oh - the irony :P ;)

[bmagni]

Wow - yet another flat-F1-track tuned Ferrari sucks majorly in the real world.

7m55s? That's 1 second SLOWER than the C5 Z06, and 10s+ slower than the C6 Z06.

With all that R&D, money and technology the new Ferrari sports car cannot even out do a budget mass produced sports car on a European track?

Now we KNOW the F430 is only being bought by posers and hairdressers.

Did we mention the C6 Z06 lapped with stock run-flat tyres :P

What a dissapointment this F430 is turning out to be - it's just an expensive trinket for the rich and famous to play with.

It sure is a apity that one of the cars all the posers and wannabes online aspire for is a just a wallory overweight underpowered slow arsed pig :P :) ;)

Why not face up to it silly Ferrari Fan-Boys - they are way over rated.

Looks like Porsche and Z06 are the last true sportscars around. While Porsche is an entire brand,, remember Z06 is just a single model.

You better not bet on that 600 holding the flag - it's just another lump lke the 550 and 575 - outclassed and outgunned in the real world... like the Nurburgring :)

Long live the GT2/GT3 and the Z06. :)

fanboy, you've turned into all that you hate :roll:
what a disappoinment ? cause of a lap time... riiiight... its not the best time ever, i know...
I'm still waiting for the C6 z06 official time, not one it supposedly made.

And how come you know its a disappointment if you havent driven either of the cars ??? the all skeptic, anti-mags RC45 is basing his comments on a respected mag review... Oh, and for the record, drivers who have actually driven both, still prefer the f430, the same thing that happened with the 360 and c5 z06... :wink:

[SFDMALEX]

Damnit RC.....Where were you for the beginning of this argument? I've been trying to hold the hill by myself here for sometime now. Nice to have reinforcements now though. :wink:

Where was I? Out enjoying my red-neck chariot while running some errands. Now I get back and find out that not only am I out driving while others are dreaming - but I am driving what for all intents and purposes blows their worshipped chariot into the weeds.. ;)

But I digress, the hread was about how one of the arguably most experienced and skilled drivers in the world, struggled to post a half decent track time in what is supposed to be the epitomy of ferrari road going engineering.

What a joke... ;) Just as the Z06 is made more "European" to appeal to snobs, and laps their on yardstick track quicker than most every other road car can - the F430 gets heavier, slower, weaker and more wallory and soft to appeal to an American audience... :P ;)

Oh - the irony :P ;)

Oh for fucks sake mate, have an ounce of objectivity and read the argument brought up by the Ferrari side...

Please dont sink to the lowest of the low by spitting out dramatic hatred withouht bothering to do half an hour worth of research.

[RC45]

Oh, and for the record, drivers who have actually driven both, still prefer the f430, the same thing that happened with the 360 and c5 z06... :wink:

And you have driven both as well I spose.

Funny then that all the F360 and F360CS owners I have seen actually visit online, own both the C5 Z and the 360/360CS - with one of them already having upgraded to the C6 Z.

We see the same thing with the GT3 etc ;)

All that money, all those hours of testing, F1 victories and engineering - wind tunnel time R&D - and still it's just an expensive trinket. ;)

WHo cares what "they" prefer anyway - given that most of the "they" (generic magazine testers) couldn't afford to pay the insurance for the Ford GT, let alone the F430 - who really cares what "they" prefer...? It's not like "they" live with the ar and drive it home everyday and to work every morning... ;)

"They" are just fulfilling your and every other dreamer fantasy by validating what you wish was true ;)

Amazingly the actual owners of the F-cars are far more accepting and respectful of the "competition" than the fan-boy dreamers are ;)

I mean, just spend 5 minutes on FChat and you will realize the biggest fan-boy ravers don't even drive cars, let alone own Ferraris... :P

Just facefacts - the car sucks and ow you have to lash out at anyone near... ;)

The last true Ferrari was the F40 - everything else is just a pretender...

[SFDMALEX]

/\/\/\

The last true Ferrari was the F40?

I officialy will not talk to you about cars ever again...you hit the sea floor mate, with a ferrari tied to your leg pulling you down....



P.S If you are writing a long retaliation post then dont bother, I wont read it. I'm going to go watch that Top Gear F430 review again...oh and that little trip to the mountans where it went agains the GT40 and THe Zonda......bon voyage!

[RC45]

/\/\/\

The last true Ferrari was the F40?

I officialy will not talk to you about cars ever again...you hit the sea floor mate, with a ferrari tied to your leg pulling you down....

Merry Christmas to you to old chap :) ;)

You Tifosi are so easy to set on fire... :P ;)

And the F40 sis the last true F-Car... it is a drivers car - maybe THE drivers car... the soul of Enzo with the body of Pininfarina - nothing else ;)

[SFDMALEX]

You Tifosi are so easy to set on fire... :P ;)

;)

Please dont put me in the same boat as a bunch of dumb fucking idiots who dont know jack shit about jack shit.

I assume your a "not getting laid enough, midlife crisis, redneck hick mother fucker who sleeps with a 44 magnum under his pillow and uncle sam over head watching chuck norris in Walker, Texas Ranger" just cause you fancy a plastic bodied live rear axle automobile.

[RC45]

You Tifosi are so easy to set on fire... :P ;)

;)

Please dont put me in the same boat as a bunch of dumb fucking idiots who dont know jack shit about jack shit.

I assume your a "not getting laid enough, midlife crisis, redneck hick mother fucker who sleeps with a 44 magnum under his pillow and uncle sam over head watching chuck norris in Walker, Texas Ranger" just cause you fancy a plastic bodied live rear axle automobile.

If that's what it takes to daily drive 420rwhp... then I guess so ;) :P

I'll give the "last true Ferrari" to the F40, and "best looking" to the F355 ;) - everything after that was created to please the XBox generation ;)

[LotusGT1]

You're totally missing my point here. I'm not saying that the Z06 is the better car. I'm saying that if you're strictly concerned with performance, why would someone pay an extra $150K for a car that can't keep up with the Z06. The only reason I can think of is so they can say that they have a ferrari.

I already conceided that ferrari has better build quality and, um, well, thats about all it has better of. But the point is that if the only requirement an entheusiast has is performance, they'd be a fool to pay that much more for a car that isn't as good in that respect.

No I don't. If the only requirement is performance they built their own racer slapping everything on the track mentioned here for a portion of the prices mentioned. Seldomly performance is the only requirement for buying a sportscar. Your statement the F430 is a joke triggered my response...

Anyway, different strokes for different folks does apply here. The fact that you can't come up with more reasons to buy a Ferrari doesn't mean there are none. You're not exactly objective (this is not a flame as everybody has bias in one way or another), neither am I. The only "conclusion" we can draw from this whole debate is that the F430 has mildly dissapointing track performance. How representative the times are however is questionable....

^^^ mate you really have an attitude problem :lol:

I strongly recommend a girl :wink:

BTW , next time try to bring some real argumnets , leave the rethorics aside.

Cheers

I have a girl, thanks. However, you are debating built quality and speed comparing 2 cars which are about $200k apart in price. If I leave rethorics out I might as well ignore everything you said in this topic, because it doesn't come close to sensible or objective discussion.

LOL, I don't need to bring arguments when the discussion is idiotic to begin with. But alas, if you can't handle a discussion based on factual information, ask Jabba fto create a kindergarten forum where you can BS all day long :)

LOL@RC. Predictable, however the outcome is funny ;)

[RAMMIUS]

If you would be just a little bit smart you would see that I didn`t start the comparo between the F430 vs Z06 , that is 150000 vs 75000 $

:roll:

[RC45]

If you would be just a little bit smart you would see that I didn`t start the comparo between the F430 vs Z06 , that is 150000 vs 75000 $

:roll:

If you would be just a little bit smart you would see that I didn't start the comparo between the F430 vs Z06, that is $150,000 vs $68,000 - I ended it ;)

All that money, all that R&D time, all that effort and the car cannot even lap the number one all round performance car benchmark track while being driven by one the most familar drivers in the world with the circuit in question more than 1squicker than the last model... That is very dissapointing... :P

Let's forget the C5 Z06 (7m56s) and the C6 Z06 (7m42s) numbers... and just look at the 360CS (7m56s) numbers... :P

The new, improved F 430 barely beats the old model ;)

How sad.

At least with Porsche, they move forward, not backwrad, while each odel gets better and stronger and faster. ;) Ferrari simply gets more boutique model and snooty as they churn out questionable cars like the FXX. (questionable becuase this is the only way Ferrari matches the Carrera GT - with a non-street legal track-only car that they keep for the customer.. ;) Porsche is so confident in their CGT - they send them home with the customer ;))

You guys will shit your pants when the FXX laps the Nurburgring slower 7m54s... ;)

Face it - cars tuned at Fiorina and other Formula 1 billard smooth tracks are just not upto real world use.

Thanks God Porsche (and every other manufacturr with any brains) use the Nurburgring to develop their cars.

Ferrari is the only holdout who refuses to do developent work at the ring... and it shows.

Now I like Ferrari as much as the next guy (well maybe a little less ;) :P) but...

...when a $50,000 mass-produced budget car can turn as fast times 2 years ago as the latest F-car can... YOU have to admit, something is rotten in the state of Maranello... ;)

[RAMMIUS]

If you would be just a little bit smart you would see that I didn't start the comparo between the F430 vs Z06, that is $150,000 vs $68,000 - I ended it



Have I said something about you RC ? I doubt :)

Anyway , Merry Christmas to you too

[RC45]

If you would be just a little bit smart you would see that I didn't start the comparo between the F430 vs Z06, that is $150,000 vs $68,000 - I ended it



Have I said something about you RC ? I doubt :)

Anyway , Merry Christmas to you too

Doesn't matter - I just wanted a chance to state the obvios... again ;) ---

The facts have shown themselves.. al the Tifosi have no ability to ever admit or even consider that their "new hero car" may not be all it is cracked up to be ... ;)

Just once - it would be nice for the fan-boys(and girls) to take the prancing horse-penis out their mouths long enough to admit Ferrari is NOT the be-all and end-all - and is like any other mechanical composition, riddled with flaws and faults... ;) -- and this new one particularly is just not the second coming of Jesus... ;) hehe

I wished y'all Merry Christmas a while ago alread y ;)

[bmagni]

Let's forget the C5 Z06 (7m56s) and the C6 Z06 (7m42s) numbers... and just look at the 360CS (7m56s) numbers... :P

still no official times, we all know factory calimed times, and anything related with the factory calimed times is to make the car better for the costumer, and as we are tlking bout the mass produced C6, I wouldn't be surprised it got something extra... still I can get surprised

The new, improved F 430 barely beats the old model ;)
right, in the ring, and that's it...


At least with Porsche, they move forward, not backwrad, while each odel gets better and stronger and faster. ;) Ferrari simply gets more boutique model and snooty as they churn out questionable cars like the FXX. (questionable becuase this is the only way Ferrari matches the Carrera GT - with a non-street legal track-only car that they keep for the customer.. ;) Porsche is so confident in their CGT - they send them home with the customer ;))

you just throw out anything that can bash Ferrari in any way and basically everytime you're wrong cause you basically don't know much bout Ferrari... Fanboy "the FXX is the only model that matches the CGT" - First of all, do you know the performance figures ?? The Enzo performs much better than the CGT - i know, you're next reply will be the CGT handles better - One of the demands of di Montezemolo was to design the Enzo without any visible wings. So no wings mean less drag, less drag means less corner grip (i thought you knew that) so in the end the Enzo is a great engineering achievement, no big wings, like the one the CGT has, and it handles as good as the CGT, unlike the Mclaren F1, that has to use extra wings to handle better...


You guys will shit your pants when the FXX laps the Nurburgring slower 7m54s... ;)
good one :D


Face it - cars tuned at Fiorina and other Formula 1 billard smooth tracks are just not upto real world use.
Does this ring any bell ??? Would an F1 perform so smoothly at the ring ?? I guess not. Ferrari produces is a car that performs like an F1, Ferrari doesn't care about the Nurburgring or anything like it, they just make cars the Ferrari way -taking all they know from the F1 and putting it into a road legal car in many ranges-.



Thanks God Porsche (and every other manufacturr with any brains) use the Nurburgring to develop their cars.

Ferrari is the only holdout who refuses to do developent work at the ring... and it shows.

There you go, you said it, Porsche - Develops in the ring, therefore performs much better in the ring...
Ferrari doesn't, then they won't perform as good...
wow that was hard to figure


...when a $50,000 mass-produced budget car can turn as fast times 2 years ago as the latest F-car can... YOU have to admit, something is rotten in the state of Maranello... ;)
or something isn't made they way you think it should be done, and makes you think its wrong... very simple

[RC45]

Let's forget the C5 Z06 (7m56s) and the C6 Z06 (7m42s) numbers... and just look at the 360CS (7m56s) numbers... :P

still no official times, we all know factory calimed times, and anything related with the factory calimed times is to make the car better for the costumer, and as we are tlking bout the mass produced C6, I wouldn't be surprised it got something extra... still I can get surprised

Your uninformed bias shows right there. ;) - you just assume because it's a mass produced cheaper car it MUST be inferior and performance claims MUST be false... ;)

The 7m56s is an official time - no ands, ifs or buts about it. And as for the C6 Z... like the C5 Z it did get etra things.. extra weight from race seat, race harness and fire system, requirements for driver safety - so we could be sure a car without the extra 60lbs or more of crap woudl go quicker.. ;)


The new, improved F 430 barely beats the old model ;)
right, in the ring, and that's it...

Yet more fan-boy rhetortic... the Ring is representative of real world roads.. because it is... a real world road... ;) Few owners of any car get to lap Fiorina to experience the "Ferrari feeling" ;) - most just pose outside the opera house and preen their leather jackets.. ;)



At least with Porsche, they move forward, not backwrad, while each odel gets better and stronger and faster. ;) Ferrari simply gets more boutique model and snooty as they churn out questionable cars like the FXX. (questionable becuase this is the only way Ferrari matches the Carrera GT - with a non-street legal track-only car that they keep for the customer.. ;) Porsche is so confident in their CGT - they send them home with the customer ;))

you just throw out anything that can bash Ferrari in any way and basically everytime you're wrong cause you basically don't know much bout Ferrari...

Actually - most of the time I am correct.. ;) - you just don't want to accept that a Ferrari fan such as myself that is a REALIST says it like it is.

Ferrari is not the be all and end all of everything. ;)

I know far more about Ferrari than you think I do... hence my opinion is the way it is. :) Besides which, I was Ferrari spotting when you were literally still in diapers ;)


Fanboy "the FXX is the only model that matches the CGT" - First of all, do you know the performance figures ?? The Enzo performs much better than the CGT - i know, you're next reply will be the CGT handles better -

This is all that counts... handling is the translaiton of all that power and ability into some useful form.

Just like the dragster accelleration and Veyron top speed are of no real use without the handling to harness either. :P

The Enzo and now the Enzo FXX are rather pointless academic excercises - as most Enzo owners/crivers have their cars on real world roads, not billard smooth F1 tracks - F1 performance in a street car is great for bragging rights, but little else.

Again t he FXX is not street legal in any way imaginable - so Ferrari again shows it can only meet the competition with "spcial one off models" ;)


One of the demands of di Montezemolo was to design the Enzo without any visible wings. So no wings mean less drag, less drag means less corner grip (i thought you knew that) so in the end the Enzo is a great engineering achievement, no big wings, like the one the CGT has, and it handles as good as the CGT, unlike the Mclaren F1, that has to use extra wings to handle better...

But the FXX needs wings.. so the design could not have been THAT good :) ;)



You guys will shit your pants when the FXX laps the Nurburgring slower 7m54s... ;)
good one :D

But true... :P ;)



Face it - cars tuned at Fiorina and other Formula 1 billard smooth tracks are just not upto real world use.
Does this ring any bell ??? Would an F1 perform so smoothly at the ring ?? I guess not. Ferrari produces is a car that performs like an F1, Ferrari doesn't care about the Nurburgring or anything like it, they just make cars the Ferrari way -taking all they know from the F1 and putting it into a road legal car in many ranges-.

Which means they are one-off signe purpose cars - with no real way to meet or beat Porsche ;)



Thanks God Porsche (and every other manufacturr with any brains) use the Nurburgring to develop their cars.

Ferrari is the only holdout who refuses to do developent work at the ring... and it shows.

There you go, you said it, Porsche - Develops in the ring, therefore performs much better in the ring...
Ferrari doesn't, then they won't perform as good...
wow that was hard to figure

Well - Nurburgring is open for Ferrari to test there - it is their loss. It was believed that there would be no way to have F1 like performance on regular roads... Porsche have proved this is possible - so all round the CGT can not only beat the Enzo around a a track, but also be driven to the track and back far quicker and safer :P

So - to get back on topic, the F430 loses out to the rest of the Porsche stable (and some even "lower" cheaper cars as well ;)



...when a $50,000 mass-produced budget car can turn as fast times 2 years ago as the latest F-car can... YOU have to admit, something is rotten in the state of Maranello... ;)
or something isn't made they way you think it should be done, and makes you think its wrong... very simple

Well - well - ell - well....finally the truth comes out... and this the pot calling the kettle black ;) --- something isn't made they way you think it should be done, and makes you think its wrong... very simple<---- isnt this what you guys use to argue about the "cheap fit and finish" and "boring german styling" ect when arguing against other cars? ;) :P

Anyway - who said I don't like Ferrari ?? I just don't "worship" them (or any other car for that matter) - I see them all for the flawed, error-prone, compromised designs they are ;)

And the F430 is right up there with the Hyudais and Kias... ;)

[mv]

All that money, all that R&D time, all that effort and the car cannot even lap the number one all round performance car benchmark track while being driven by one the most familar drivers in the world with the circuit in question more than 1squicker than the last model... That is very dissapointing... :P

Let's forget the C5 Z06 (7m56s) and the C6 Z06 (7m42s) numbers... and just look at the 360CS (7m56s) numbers... :P

The new, improved F 430 barely beats the old model ;)

How sad.


How come you compare the regular F430 with a CS version of the old one. Same thing as you'd compare the old C5 Z06(7,56) with the regular C6 (8,15). The regular 360 did it in 8,09 so it's quite an improvement.

[ice]

The whole point of ferrari isnt to get the best time at a SINGLE, 7 minute track(which is stupid to use as a statistical basis for comparing cars, especially when the car wasnt developed on it), but to bring the experience of a race car to the street, and to allow drivers to exploit the performace to as much a degree as possible. I dont know what you are reading, but anything ive read, and the people I know whove driven the F430 say it is liekly one of the best drivers car they've ever driven ( Two of these men both drive Porsches by the way). Do you think it's coincidence that it is so often compared to the F40?

The Ring is used as a marketing tool above all else, a gimmick used by Porsche(as well as Audi, BMW and the rest) to market thier cars. Real world? Please, in the real world a car like the CGT is hell to live with, it's suspension too harsh and snappy, its rideheight too low, its clutch almost ridiculous in practicality. The f430 strikes the PERFECT balance between useability and performance. Ill GLADLY give up a half second on a common track I will never be on in order to have the ability to exploit more performance 90% of the time. I think most people understand and agree with this.

The CGT's value on the market is dropping like a rock, coincidence? People dont want it because the "REAL WORLD" is actually nothign liek the ring, in the real world you need to stop and go, handle wet pavement, ect..

It may be GREAT on the ring (the place it was born), but on any other race track i have not seen any data saying its equal to or better than the Enzo. In fact, I havent found a source yet that concludes the CGT is better than the Enzo in any way, and when emotion is brought into the mix, ive seen the Enzo walk away with head to head victories.

As much as Tifosi have a bias, Porschephiles have one just as extreme, and vette lovers too. I love all of these cars, the Z06 included(I drove one here in Oshawa ontario during the summer, thank you very much). I love how people want to justify a bias or preference, completely subjective in nature, by trying to use "fact". People dont like ferrari's becuase of the reasons everyone on this baord sees 4 times a day, just as people dont like porsches for other reasons. They arent valid reasons half the time, just bias manifesting itself through opinion. if you dont like the F430, say it, but dont start talking bullshit about its only strength being build quality(the Z06 is great, but still drives with numb steering and poor communication through its chassis, on of the ferraris greatest assests) Yes, I am disapointed with the F430's track times, but that is only a fraction of its appeal, just like the Z06's chassis weaknesses do not have a great effect on its overall appeal.

*edit

Hell, you need only look at the quote in the post above me to see how Enzo himself would like the F430. It isnt about how fast you go, its about how you go fast.

[RC45]

Thank God we are getting some response from old-time yet low post-count posters ;)

It get's old with the same 7 yahoos (myself included :P) being the only voicesheard... ;)

JW lives at last ;)

[ice]

sometimes it takes just the right "fool" to rise up my anger enough to post :P

But im just kidding, I understand your points against the F430, and yea, i wish it was faster on some tracks, but overall it still would be the car Id want to drive each and every day, and you only need to watch the Top gear with hammond and clarkson watching captain slow rip thourgh those mountains with that sexy F430 to know why.

[RC45]

[homer simpson]
HHHHMMMM..... F355's....
[/homer simpson]

;)

[nthfinity]

dani... the 355 was something very special indeed ;)

in any case... besides price brackets... if Ferrari really want to keep up with thier chief competitor, Porsche... they absolutely have to test at the Ring. It shows wholey that they dont, and it is unfortunate.

in 5 years time when the next-next 911 GT3 and the F430 replacement are supertested and Ferrari isnt just lagging behind a little... but are behind the 911/Z06/Viper/FGT [replacement] around most tracks, and the only thing Ferrari has left is their engine noise, racing heritage, and badge... sure the car is going to be fast... but just not on the same playing field as the other monikers... even a M3 S4, RS4 etc. beating a prancing horse around a track...

it definately is my opinion that ferrari isnt what they used to be... and mabey loosing in F1 could turn things around... who knows?

[dingo]

The F430 is getting rave reviews by everyone who has driven one - I really don't see the big concern about Ferraris future that you're all referring too. :?

[RC45]

The F430 is getting rave reviews by everyone who has driven one - I really don't see the big concern about Ferraris future that you're all referring too. :?

Fast n the Furious got rave reviews as well ;)

[ice]

No it didnt, people hated that movie.

And id say its hard to find someone who has anythign negative about the F430 to say, aside from this debate about the Ring laptime. Well, anyone who matters that is :P

You know, this reminds me a lot about the whole Ford GT40 debate. Everyone and thier mothers know the GT40 beat the ferraris at le mans. Fantastic. Its too bad Ferrari won the overall championship, both years. I guess when a company invests all thier development costs into a single track, it sorta happens this way, Should it come as any suprise, and for that matter, is it any great achievement that a company like Ford, with a huge budget, designed a car for a single race and won it, yet lost the championship?

[nthfinity]

You know, this reminds me a lot about the whole Ford GT40 debate. Everyone and thier mothers know the GT40 beat the ferraris at le mans. Fantastic. Its too bad Ferrari won the overall championship, both years. I guess when a company invests all thier development costs into a single track, it sorta happens this way, Should it come as any suprise, and for that matter, is it any great achievement that a company like Ford, with a huge budget, designed a car for a single race and won it, yet lost the championship?

well.... in a giffy... so, if you dont want to read....Ford won outright 66, and 67 when rule changes occured... then 68, 69 were privateers that were more then competitive ;)

history cant be changed :)
Ford tested the GT40 Mark II extensively – both in the wind tunnel and on a special dynamometer that simulated a 48-hour run of the Le Mans circuit – and at the start of the 1966 season, GT40 began a four-year domination of endurance racing
In the 24 hours of Daytona, Ken Miles and Lloyd Ruby headed a 1-2-3 sweep for Ford. The Sebring 12-hour also saw a trio of Fords take the checkered flag in sequence.

Ford led at the start of the 1966 Le Mans, and had been nearly unchallenged as darkness fell. By dawn on Sunday, their leads were so significant that they were ordered to slow down for reliability's sake. By noon, 10 of the 13 Fords entered, many of them sponsored by private teams, had been eliminated, and the three remaining cars cruised toward a 1-2-3 victory and Ford's achievement of the "triple crown" of endurance racing – in just its third season.

Dearborn's Own Mark IV Proving that the victory over Ferrari and the others was no fluke, Ford entered and won Le Mans in 1967, this time in all-new car! The GT40 Mark IV was an all-Dearborn creation, born to some degree in response to criticism that the earlier cars were simply English machines funded by big American pockets. So different were the Mark IVs, for example, that they were constructed of aluminum honeycomb bonded with the latest aerospace techniques, instead of steel.

The 1967 Le Mans hosted GT40's most dramatic duel with Ferrari. Ford led early but lost three of its seven cars to nighttime crashes; the Gurney/Foyt car continued, though, beating the 2nd and 3rd place Ferraris by only four laps. Moreover, the "lazy liters" 427 engine in the winning Ford earned the coveted "Index of Thermal Efficiency" award for highest performance on the least amount of fuel – an achievement which the Europeans considered as important as overall victory.

Not surprisingly, the FIA quickly capped engine displacement at 5 liters, but the European component of "Ford Total Performance" was far from complete. Under Gulf Oil sponsorship, the Mark I GT40s returned to win Le Mans in 1968, and then again in 1969. That final Le Mans for GT40 was one of the most exciting in the history of endurance racing, with a margin of victory of just two seconds after 24 hours of intense competition!

By 1969, the winning GT40 had 425 BHP and was timed at 217 mph along the Mulsanne Straight. The GT40 and its speed were instrumental in sweeping rule changes which were introduced after the 1969 race in order to curb the high speeds of GT racing. The new rules were introduced at the end of 1969 and limited engine size, ending the GT40's successful winning run at Le-Mans.

[ice]

That proves my point, the Ford was designed with only these high speed tracks in mind, which is why it lost the overall championship. Winning Le Mans is great, but when you build a car for that place you are not compromising on the components of the car to make it strong at a different type of track. The ferrari's goal was to win at more than two or three tracks, making it the better car for the championship. It would be like a current F1 team building a car and setting it up to be successful at a place like Monaco, but losing in most other places. Whats the point?

[ice]

Well... personally I remember the GT40 as a great endurance car (one of the bests actually) while the Ferraris by then were... just the Ferraris by then :wank: Le Mans is different, is bigger and more important than anything else... probably even more than the overall championship itself :P

That may be so, but the overall championship would give a much better perspective on the car itself then a single race can, no matter how long. And I hope people do not forget the Ps, P4's and P3/P4. The single most successful race car of the series, and probably one of the best looking cars all time. I mean, have you seen a Gt40 go for over 5,000,000 pounds?

[RC45]

in the GT40 case, just to say 'hey Enzo, my cars are faster than yours and everybody knows it' :D

..and then to have the FIA change the rules to give Enzo a chance again - only to be beaten by the Germans and Porsche - until the rules are again changed to aid Ferrari to win... ;) :P

[nthfinity]

..and then to have the FIA change the rules to give Enzo a chance again - only to be beaten by the Germans and Porsche - until the rules are again changed to aid Ferrari to win...

tis unfortunate really ;)

That proves my point

except it proves my point.. .Ford won the Championship in 66 and 67... not just the major races :roll: then when they changed the rules to let Enzo win again(factory support was pulled) , privateers running the old GT4 mk II's with the steel-tube british chassis, and smaller engines still beat Ferrari for 2 more years at Lemans.

[RC45]

:prr: :popcorn:

[RAMMIUS]

..and then to have the FIA change the rules to give Enzo a chance again



I would you like to do 2 things :

1. Exactly what rules were changed
2. How did that helped Ferrari

It would be nice to clear things up.

[LotusGT1]

If you would be just a little bit smart you would see that I didn`t start the comparo between the F430 vs Z06 , that is 150000 vs 75000 $

:roll:

I never claimed so.


The direct competitor of the Z06 it`s gonna be the Ferrari 600 , due to appear in 2006.

They have the same layout : big dispalcement, front mounted engines with RWD.

How can you compare a high displacement engine like Vette`s 7 litre with a 4.3 litre .
A little detail : 7 it`s wayyyy bigger that 4.3 , remember ?

I really like to see what you`ll say when Ferrari`s 600 will make the Z06 look slow and badly engineered :twisted:

For arguments sake the Ferrari 600 will be around $250k-$300k. That was the car you compared with the Z06. About $200k difference.

I almost get insulted when you try to say others "aren't smart". :twisted:

[nthfinity]

I would you like to do 2 things :

1. Exactly what rules were changed
2. How did that helped Ferrari

It would be nice to clear things up.

primarily, the rules limited the engines displacement to take the edge away from Ford... the 'lazy' dohc 427 cid engine was pushing the Ford at 217 mph (faster then anybody else from that year) and it proved reliable.... where the Ferraris just couldnt compare thier high-stress engines to it at all for endurance racing. the FIA then limited the displacement to 5.0 liters/302 CID.... so then Ford pulled its support, and privateers were still able to (just) win Le mans the next few years still before Porsche saw this as an opertunity, and they simply obliterated everything ;)

so... in reality, it "didn't" help ferrari... but it definately took ford out of the picture from LM racing.

[|Nuno|]

The Ring is used as a marketing tool above all else, a gimmick used by Porsche(as well as Audi, BMW and the rest) to market thier cars. Real world? Please, in the real world a car like the CGT is hell to live with, it's suspension too harsh and snappy, its rideheight too low, its clutch almost ridiculous in practicality. The f430 strikes the PERFECT balance between useability and performance. Ill GLADLY give up a half second on a common track I will never be on in order to have the ability to exploit more performance 90% of the time. I think most people understand and agree with this.

Finally someone gets it... This 'Ring time stuff has gotten way out of proportion. I guess GM's, Porsche's and etc. marketing departments did a good job... :P

[RC45]

The Ring is used as a marketing tool above all else, a gimmick used by Porsche(as well as Audi, BMW and the rest) to market thier cars. Real world? Please, in the real world a car like the CGT is hell to live with, it's suspension too harsh and snappy, its rideheight too low, its clutch almost ridiculous in practicality. The f430 strikes the PERFECT balance between useability and performance. Ill GLADLY give up a half second on a common track I will never be on in order to have the ability to exploit more performance 90% of the time. I think most people understand and agree with this.

Finally someone gets it... This 'Ring time stuff has gotten way out of proportion. I guess GM's, Porsche's and etc. marketing departments did a good job... :P

Wrong.

Wrong on so many fronts.

The Nurburgring was "the most demanding track" LONG before it became "cool" and "in vogue" to talk about the Nurburgring.

There is a reason Porsche has been creating the some of the greatest all round real world performance cars for the longest time... because if a car is tuned and honed for the Nurburgring. then it is ready for 90% of all other condition in the world - not the other way round.

:)

The reason the Nurburgring is such a good tuning tool, is because it has enough bumps, dips, crests, turns and straights to be sure that any car that does well there is NOT to harshly sprung or dampened... ;)

Again - you guys defeat yourselves with your own logic.. ;)

By definition Formula 1 cars are the epitome of performance - correct? Yet they are too harshly sprung and dampened to be usable on general public roads - or the Nurburgring.. ;)

:popcorn:

[|Nuno|]

The Ring is used as a marketing tool above all else, a gimmick used by Porsche(as well as Audi, BMW and the rest) to market thier cars. Real world? Please, in the real world a car like the CGT is hell to live with, it's suspension too harsh and snappy, its rideheight too low, its clutch almost ridiculous in practicality. The f430 strikes the PERFECT balance between useability and performance. Ill GLADLY give up a half second on a common track I will never be on in order to have the ability to exploit more performance 90% of the time. I think most people understand and agree with this.

Finally someone gets it... This 'Ring time stuff has gotten way out of proportion. I guess GM's, Porsche's and etc. marketing departments did a good job... :P

Wrong.

Wrong on so many fronts.

The Nurburgring was "the most demanding track" LONG before it became "cool" and "in vogue" to talk about the Nurburgring.

There is a reason Porsche has been creating the some of the greatest all round real world performance cars for the longest time... because if a car is tuned and honed for the Nurburgring. then it is ready for 90% of all other condition in the world - not the other way round.

:)

The reason the Nurburgring is such a good tuning tool, is because it has enough bumps, dips, crests, turns and straights to be sure that any car that does well there is NOT to harshly sprung or dampened... ;)

Again - you guys defeat yourselves with your own logic.. ;)

By definition Formula 1 cars are the epitome of performance - correct? Yet they are too harshly sprung and dampened to be usable on general public roads - or the Nurburgring.. ;)

:popcorn:

No need for all that text, I actually agree with most of what you said. ;) What I meant is that most people who quote the 'Ring times do it because of exacly what you said - it's now in vogue. It's the marketing at work. It is out of proportion - in the end, it's just another twisty road. :P


And by the way, there are some cars that aren't exacly public road friendly (the Radical, for instance), that therefore shouldn't do well on a "real world" track like the 'Ring, and yet they do. ;)


Anyway, this was about the F430 Supertest, and I'm still waiting for a plausible explanition for those trap speeds...

[SFDMALEX]

You boys still fighting about? Good thing I diteched this thread a while ago.....no keep it inline cause I dont want to moderate this thread....you know reading all the junk will probably get me posting in here again hehe

[JoeHahn]

I dont see how it cant be a typo...

Obviously if SA is so anti Ferrari they would make all their times horrible, instead of making just the F430 time horrible. So is their 360 time good or is it shit and the F430 one really shit?

[ice]

Wrong.

Wrong on so many fronts.

The Nurburgring was "the most demanding track" LONG before it became "cool" and "in vogue" to talk about the Nurburgring.

There is a reason Porsche has been creating the some of the greatest all round real world performance cars for the longest time... because if a car is tuned and honed for the Nurburgring. then it is ready for 90% of all other condition in the world - not the other way round.

:)

The reason the Nurburgring is such a good tuning tool, is because it has enough bumps, dips, crests, turns and straights to be sure that any car that does well there is NOT to harshly sprung or dampened... ;)

Again - you guys defeat yourselves with your own logic.. ;)

By definition Formula 1 cars are the epitome of performance - correct? Yet they are too harshly sprung and dampened to be usable on general public roads - or the Nurburgring.. ;)

:popcorn:[/quote]

Ok, go easy there RC. The ring isnt some absolute authority, like I said it is only one track, no matter how long. And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars. It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives, yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure?

Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made. Isnt this what the Ring is supposed to achieve, but clearly hasnt in the CGT's case? I understand the RIng is a very useful tool, but it is not the most important one in developing the car, and judging by the ways Ferraris have handled lately, not even neccesary in all cases.

The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it.

Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade.

[RC45]

And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars.

Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars.. ;)


It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives,

Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. ;) - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... :P -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value ;)


yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure?

There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable ;)

The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there :) -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger... ;)

I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are ;)


Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made.

You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar ;)


The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it.

And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch.. ;)

Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used.

One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason ;)

This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits.


Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade.
It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors ;)

The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be ;)

[allanlambo]

And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars.

Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars.. ;)


It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives,

Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. ;) - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... :P -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value ;)


yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure?

There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable ;)

The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there :) -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger... ;)

I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are ;)


Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made.

You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar ;)


The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it.

And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch.. ;)

Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used.

One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason ;)

This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits.


Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade.
It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors ;)

The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be ;)


Rc45, yet again talking out your ass.

This will be the first time you will catch me praising a Ferrari in a long time. Having recently returned from vacation, and having spent some time not only in a 430, but a 430 F1, and a 6 speed, not to mention my test drive of the Bugatti Veyron. Anyways, calling the Ferrari slow is ludicrous. But first the drive of the Ferrari, I will stick with the F1, as the 6 speed was dissapointing, while the F1 is superb. The transmission is flawless, much better than the early Gallardo Egear ( this has changed with the new 06 Gallardos though, I drove that too). The shifts are lightning fast, the ergonomics of the car are great, although i prefer the levels of support you have in the Gallardo. The noise from the 430 is also glorious. To give you some real world insite as to the speed of the 430, it is faster straightline than an early Gallardo. I was also able to race my modified Lotus Esprit, which just barely nudges my friends Gallardo in a straightline race, against my buddies bone stock 430 F1. In an identical race where my Esprit beats an 04 Z06 by 3 car lengths, a Gallardo by 1/4 car ( his front bumper is at my door) and a Viper SRT10 by 1 car length, from 30mph to 130mph, the Ferrari 430 beat me by atleast 5 car lengths. Inmo, from a roll, the 430 will run closely with a new C6 Z06, I think the C6 will still edge it out, but barely. Real world dyno results of the 430. Bone stock dynoed 435rwhp. Also as a measure, I raced the same 430 in my bone stock Murcielago from 50-130 mph, and the Murcielago beats it by approx 1- 1 1/2 car lengths. As speeds increase, no doubt the Murcielago would pull harder, but starting at 50mph, the Murci is really loafing along in 2nd gear.

Now the Gallardo SE, really is all together a totally different animal than the early Gallardo. When I first drove a Gallardo Egear, I walked away knowing I definitely wanted a 6 speed. The new Egear, is fantastic, shifts as good as, or better than the 430. One thing I do like better on the 430, is that you do not hear the pump actuators on the F1 as you do on the Egear. In outright speed, I dont know if the SE is faster than the 430, but it is atleast its equal. With the Se, given the choice between the 430 and SE, I would choose the SE. Unfortunately for me, I wont be getting either as I have an 06 Pearl White Gallardo Spyder on order.

Now RC45, please give your review of the Buggatti Veyron, so I can compare that with my actually driving it.



P.S I am a wanker, I crave cock like a dog craves sweet candy. My dick is so small I bang fat chicks without any penetration.

[RC45]

And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars.

Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars.. ;)


It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives,

Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. ;) - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... :P -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value ;)


yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure?

There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable ;)

The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there :) -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger... ;)

I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are ;)


Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made.

You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar ;)


The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it.

And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch.. ;)

Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used.

One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason ;)

This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits.


Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade.
It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors ;)

The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be ;)


Rc45, yet again talking out your ass.

This will be the first time you will catch me praising a Ferrari in a long time. Having recently returned from vacation, and having spent some time not only in a 430, but a 430 F1, and a 6 speed, not to mention my test drive of the Bugatti Veyron. Anyways, calling the Ferrari slow is ludicrous. But first the drive of the Ferrari, I will stick with the F1, as the 6 speed was dissapointing, while the F1 is superb. The transmission is flawless, much better than the early Gallardo Egear ( this has changed with the new 06 Gallardos though, I drove that too). The shifts are lightning fast, the ergonomics of the car are great, although i prefer the levels of support you have in the Gallardo. The noise from the 430 is also glorious. To give you some real world insite as to the speed of the 430, it is faster straightline than an early Gallardo. I was also able to race my modified Lotus Esprit, which just barely nudges my friends Gallardo in a straightline race, against my buddies bone stock 430 F1. In an identical race where my Esprit beats an 04 Z06 by 3 car lengths, a Gallardo by 1/4 car ( his front bumper is at my door) and a Viper SRT10 by 1 car length, from 30mph to 130mph, the Ferrari 430 beat me by atleast 5 car lengths. Inmo, from a roll, the 430 will run closely with a new C6 Z06, I think the C6 will still edge it out, but barely. Real world dyno results of the 430. Bone stock dynoed 435rwhp. Also as a measure, I raced the same 430 in my bone stock Murcielago from 50-130 mph, and the Murcielago beats it by approx 1- 1 1/2 car lengths. As speeds increase, no doubt the Murcielago would pull harder, but starting at 50mph, the Murci is really loafing along in 2nd gear.

Now the Gallardo SE, really is all together a totally different animal than the early Gallardo. When I first drove a Gallardo Egear, I walked away knowing I definitely wanted a 6 speed. The new Egear, is fantastic, shifts as good as, or better than the 430. One thing I do like better on the 430, is that you do not hear the pump actuators on the F1 as you do on the Egear. In outright speed, I dont know if the SE is faster than the 430, but it is atleast its equal. With the Se, given the choice between the 430 and SE, I would choose the SE. Unfortunately for me, I wont be getting either as I have an 06 Pearl White Gallardo Spyder on order.

Now RC45, please give your review of the Buggatti Veyron, so I can compare that with my actually driving it.

P.S I am a wanker, I crave cock like a dog craves sweet candy. My dick is so small I bang fat chicks without any penetration.

Is this all you fragile ego is good for?

Name dropping and bragging?

You sadly live for "online justification" - please fukc off back to where you came from.

I don't recall you being part of the previous conversation - if I need you head to rest my beer on while you blow me I'll give you a call.

[allanlambo]

And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars.

Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars.. ;)


It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives,

Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. ;) - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... :P -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value ;)


yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure?

There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable ;)

The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there :) -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger... ;)

I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are ;)


Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made.

You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar ;)


The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it.

And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch.. ;)

Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used.

One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason ;)

This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits.


Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade.
It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors ;)

The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be ;)


Rc45, yet again talking out your ass.

This will be the first time you will catch me praising a Ferrari in a long time. Having recently returned from vacation, and having spent some time not only in a 430, but a 430 F1, and a 6 speed, not to mention my test drive of the Bugatti Veyron. Anyways, calling the Ferrari slow is ludicrous. But first the drive of the Ferrari, I will stick with the F1, as the 6 speed was dissapointing, while the F1 is superb. The transmission is flawless, much better than the early Gallardo Egear ( this has changed with the new 06 Gallardos though, I drove that too). The shifts are lightning fast, the ergonomics of the car are great, although i prefer the levels of support you have in the Gallardo. The noise from the 430 is also glorious. To give you some real world insite as to the speed of the 430, it is faster straightline than an early Gallardo. I was also able to race my modified Lotus Esprit, which just barely nudges my friends Gallardo in a straightline race, against my buddies bone stock 430 F1. In an identical race where my Esprit beats an 04 Z06 by 3 car lengths, a Gallardo by 1/4 car ( his front bumper is at my door) and a Viper SRT10 by 1 car length, from 30mph to 130mph, the Ferrari 430 beat me by atleast 5 car lengths. Inmo, from a roll, the 430 will run closely with a new C6 Z06, I think the C6 will still edge it out, but barely. Real world dyno results of the 430. Bone stock dynoed 435rwhp. Also as a measure, I raced the same 430 in my bone stock Murcielago from 50-130 mph, and the Murcielago beats it by approx 1- 1 1/2 car lengths. As speeds increase, no doubt the Murcielago would pull harder, but starting at 50mph, the Murci is really loafing along in 2nd gear.

Now the Gallardo SE, really is all together a totally different animal than the early Gallardo. When I first drove a Gallardo Egear, I walked away knowing I definitely wanted a 6 speed. The new Egear, is fantastic, shifts as good as, or better than the 430. One thing I do like better on the 430, is that you do not hear the pump actuators on the F1 as you do on the Egear. In outright speed, I dont know if the SE is faster than the 430, but it is atleast its equal. With the Se, given the choice between the 430 and SE, I would choose the SE. Unfortunately for me, I wont be getting either as I have an 06 Pearl White Gallardo Spyder on order.

Now RC45, please give your review of the Buggatti Veyron, so I can compare that with my actually driving it.

Is this all you fragile ego is good for?

Name dropping and bragging?

You sadly live for "online justification" - please fukc off back to where you came from.

I don't recall you being part of the previous conversation - if I need you head to rest my beer on while you blow me I'll give you a call.

All you can do, is talk ou tof your ass, and post your gay thoughts. Hows your Z06? whats that, like an 18k car now? Ill trade you 1/2 my watch for it?

[coloradosilver]

And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars.

Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars.. ;)


It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives,

Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. ;) - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... :P -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value ;)


yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure?

There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable ;)

The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there :) -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger... ;)

I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are ;)


Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made.

You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar ;)


The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it.

And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch.. ;)

Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used.

One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason ;)

This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits.


Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade.
It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors ;)

The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be ;)


Rc45, yet again talking out your ass.

This will be the first time you will catch me praising a Ferrari in a long time. Having recently returned from vacation, and having spent some time not only in a 430, but a 430 F1, and a 6 speed, not to mention my test drive of the Bugatti Veyron. Anyways, calling the Ferrari slow is ludicrous. But first the drive of the Ferrari, I will stick with the F1, as the 6 speed was dissapointing, while the F1 is superb. The transmission is flawless, much better than the early Gallardo Egear ( this has changed with the new 06 Gallardos though, I drove that too). The shifts are lightning fast, the ergonomics of the car are great, although i prefer the levels of support you have in the Gallardo. The noise from the 430 is also glorious. To give you some real world insite as to the speed of the 430, it is faster straightline than an early Gallardo. I was also able to race my modified Lotus Esprit, which just barely nudges my friends Gallardo in a straightline race, against my buddies bone stock 430 F1. In an identical race where my Esprit beats an 04 Z06 by 3 car lengths, a Gallardo by 1/4 car ( his front bumper is at my door) and a Viper SRT10 by 1 car length, from 30mph to 130mph, the Ferrari 430 beat me by atleast 5 car lengths. Inmo, from a roll, the 430 will run closely with a new C6 Z06, I think the C6 will still edge it out, but barely. Real world dyno results of the 430. Bone stock dynoed 435rwhp. Also as a measure, I raced the same 430 in my bone stock Murcielago from 50-130 mph, and the Murcielago beats it by approx 1- 1 1/2 car lengths. As speeds increase, no doubt the Murcielago would pull harder, but starting at 50mph, the Murci is really loafing along in 2nd gear.

Now the Gallardo SE, really is all together a totally different animal than the early Gallardo. When I first drove a Gallardo Egear, I walked away knowing I definitely wanted a 6 speed. The new Egear, is fantastic, shifts as good as, or better than the 430. One thing I do like better on the 430, is that you do not hear the pump actuators on the F1 as you do on the Egear. In outright speed, I dont know if the SE is faster than the 430, but it is atleast its equal. With the Se, given the choice between the 430 and SE, I would choose the SE. Unfortunately for me, I wont be getting either as I have an 06 Pearl White Gallardo Spyder on order.

Now RC45, please give your review of the Buggatti Veyron, so I can compare that with my actually driving it.

Is this all you fragile ego is good for?

Name dropping and bragging?

You sadly live for "online justification" - please fukc off back to where you came from.

I don't recall you being part of the previous conversation - if I need you head to rest my beer on while you blow me I'll give you a call.

All you can do, is talk ou tof your ass, and post your gay thoughts. Hows your Z06? whats that, like an 18k car now? Ill trade you 1/2 my watch for it?

But thats the beauty of RC's car. You can get the performance of your $200,000 ferrari for a tenth of the price. And as far as depreciation goes...be careful to do your research before you talk about ferrari. If you buy a new ferrari, within a few years it will have dropped 50K in price. It's because they're not worth what ferrari charges. People with money buy them because they can, not because they're worth it.

[LotusGT1]

Hey, there's Allan again...

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/4755/allan7el.jpg

I'm glad there are no pictures of me circulating on the net where I'm making middle finger gestures like some kind of degenerate.

Nice to see the guy back which sole purpose is to brag on the internet to some complete strangers.

[coloradosilver]

Hahaha...What a wanker. Don't think he'll be around on this site very long. I don't think he's used to sites that have standards such as this one.

Just goes to show...money can but any idiot a Lambo, but as for a cure for being an ignorant asshole....not for sale in any store.

[allanlambo]

I love that picture. It goes out to all Corvette owning losers.

But you are right, money can buy any idiot a Lambo, just takes a special kind of idiot to be able to earn the money to buy one. Now what kind of an idiot does it take to buy a 30K Chevy, with 10 year interest free financing?

[coloradosilver]

Beats me, I paid cash and got the title the day I drove it home. (41K)

I didn't mean that all idiots buy lambos, just that all those who buy lambos are idiots. For performance for money, it's a very impulsive, poser, irrational, illogical purchase. Many other cars on the market offer better performance for a fifth of the price. The only reason that I can see someone buying one is so they can say "I have a lamborghini". It's nothing special, like I said all it takes is money. It would be something one would do to show off when they have no other assets or features about themselves that would attract other people. And for all I know you didn't earn a dime of that money, it could have been a trust fund or an inheritance that you didn't deserve at all. I could be wrong, you may have earned it fair enough. But two things about your statement above bother me if thats the case. 1) You think it takes a "special kind of idiot" to earn that kind of money. This gives total disrespect and inconsideration to people who have worked hard their whole lives and have legitimately earned every cent they have. And 2) You're obviously quite narrow minded to think that all corvette owners have to take out a "10 year interest free" loan to get that car. Many who own these cars have plenty of money, but have the common sense to buy a car that offers the performance of your Lambo at a fraction of the cost.

Quick question....Where did you scome from all of a sudden. It says that you've been a member for over two years now, but only have 89 posts (at the time of me writing this). Why have you all of a sudden decided to show up and try to impress people?

By the way...we have a rule here about comments about driving in or riding in cars. Show us the pictures or shut up. If you did go drive a Veyron as you have stated, you woud have no doubt taken pictures as that would be the drive of a lifetime for any auto entheusiast. I'm not saying that you didn't, but we need the pics if we are to give any merit to your claims.

[JoeHahn]

I didn't mean that all idiots buy lambos, just that all those who buy lambos are idiots.

Hey personal choice is personal choice - just because one idiot drives a lamborghini, doesnt mean they are all idiots. Back up on the unnecessary bashing :)

[coloradosilver]

I didn't mean that all idiots buy lambos, just that all those who buy lambos are idiots.

Hey personal choice is personal choice - just because one idiot drives a lamborghini, doesnt mean they are all idiots. Back up on the unnecessary bashing :)

Apparently you didn't read HIS post: "Now what kind of an idiot does it take to buy a 30K Chevy, with 10 year interest free financing?" So dopn't be too quick to yell at me.

I'm not saying that it isn't a good car, it is. They're fast, nice to be in, and handle quite well. But the second you factor in the money they cost, it just isn't warranted.

There's a reason thet allanlambo has been banned from ferrarichat.com and Z06vette.com, He's not the sort we want here either.

[SFDMALEX]

Has no one noticed my handy work? :(

[coloradosilver]

Has no one noticed my handy work? :(

huh?

[nthfinity]

^^^^^^
allenlambo makes periodic appearances...

mostly to be condicending to those who he has called 'peasants'

which is being a total asshole IMO... i've met people who are 100x more successful then mr Allenlambo, who love talking to people who share the same interests... i dont know how much he makes... but i guarentee that he's nowhere near the wealth that these other amazing people are...

each of these guys started out at similar places as where people like me are at, and want to give their advices...

the only asshats ive met like allenlambo are in the 1-5 million/ year gross.

which makes me think that allen is somewhere closer to that, or as much as 2x that... not at all like the entrapanuers i've met, or like our own Jabba, and Bobbafett.



on a side note...
people who buy cars like the Diablo/cirtain Ferraris/Porsches/supercars etc. arent always posers... those cars do something special that a car like a Vette just cant...

some people who buy them are definately fanboy poseurs... but the cars often are not IMO.

[SFDMALEX]

Has no one noticed my handy work? :(

huh?

blah :(


Check alan fuckheads first post.

[nthfinity]

Check alan fuckheads first post.


it was hard to find it among the huge quotes being used...

[coloradosilver]

Check alan fuckheads first post.


it was hard to find it among the huge quotes being used...

I'm still looking, a little lost I must admit.

EDIT: Got it!

And yes, he is a wanker. Good job..quite subtle.

[SFDMALEX]

hehe I just made some corrections so maybe now it will be noticed :twisted:

[coloradosilver]

Well done. I wonder if he'll stick around and bitch at people or just leave.

[nthfinity]

Well done. I wonder if he'll stick around and bitch at people or just leave.
he'll do what he always does... just look up his past posts

he tries to raise hell for a couple days, then disappears for 6-7 months

[RC45]

he tries to raise hell for a couple days, then disappears for 6-7 months

I am not sure if you are describing a person or an STD?

[nthfinity]

he tries to raise hell for a couple days, then disappears for 6-7 months

I am not sure if you are describing a person or an STD?
LMAO!!!!

well, im no physician, but what an interesting prognosis :P