View Full Version : Read em and weep...
http://www.z06vette.com/gallery/data/500/6038Image002.jpg
Caplax40
09-16-2005, 11:04 PM
I see a blurry number then a .2...is that 6.2lbs per hp? I guess I could go find that ad in my Road & Track.....BUT I DEMAND AN ANSWER! :)
skituner
09-16-2005, 11:14 PM
merry fucking chirstmas, its still a corvette.
Caplax40
09-16-2005, 11:24 PM
merry fucking chirstmas, its still a corvette.
Great here we go....cue RC45's rebuttal.....
merry fucking chirstmas, its still a corvette.
Great here we go....cue RC45's rebuttal.....
What rebuttal?
"it's still a corvette" is a typical fanboy, benchracer, wannabe, camry driving losers answer ;) BTW - Which Ferrari does he drive? :P :lol:
Facts are facts.
62lbs/hp - the number is just another in a long stream of numbers that validate how the C6 Z06 is just continuing what the C5 Z06 started 5 years ago.
The fact that eye-ball squashing performance was now available for "ordinary folks" pisses all the wanna-be posers off no end.
:)
Must suck to be a supporter of something "just for the image" :P
Those numbers again:
sub 3.6ish-s 0-60 - 11.6ish-s 1/4 mile @ 125mph+, 7m42s Northloop, 200mph top speed - and all this for $65,000USD ;)
stracing
09-16-2005, 11:44 PM
yea yea, still makes me wish i had a camry though :P
Caplax40
09-17-2005, 12:26 AM
merry fucking chirstmas, its still a corvette.
Great here we go....cue RC45's rebuttal.....
What rebuttal?
"it's still a corvette" is a typical fanboy, benchracer, wannabe, camry driving losers answer ;) BTW - Which Ferrari does he drive? :P :lol:
Facts are facts.
62lbs/hp - the number is just another in a long stream of numbers that validate how the C6 Z06 is just continuing what the C5 Z06 started 5 years ago.
The fact that eye-ball squashing performance was now available for "ordinary folks" pisses all the wanna-be posers off no end.
:)
Must suck to be a supporter of something "just for the image" :P
Those numbers again:
sub 3.6ish-s 0-60 - 11.6ish-s 1/4 mile @ 125mph+, 7m42s Northloop, 200mph top speed - and all this for $65,000USD ;)
Whoa. That's a lot of hostility to a guy with an opposing view. I would think that a moderator would show a little more respect and maturity.
merry fucking chirstmas, its still a corvette.
Great here we go....cue RC45's rebuttal.....
What rebuttal?
"it's still a corvette" is a typical fanboy, benchracer, wannabe, camry driving losers answer ;) BTW - Which Ferrari does he drive? :P :lol:
Facts are facts.
62lbs/hp - the number is just another in a long stream of numbers that validate how the C6 Z06 is just continuing what the C5 Z06 started 5 years ago.
The fact that eye-ball squashing performance was now available for "ordinary folks" pisses all the wanna-be posers off no end.
:)
Must suck to be a supporter of something "just for the image" :P
Those numbers again:
sub 3.6ish-s 0-60 - 11.6ish-s 1/4 mile @ 125mph+, 7m42s Northloop, 200mph top speed - and all this for $65,000USD ;)
Whoa. That's a lot of hostility to a guy with an opposing view. I would think that a moderator would show a little more respect and maturity.
Not one iota of hostility. :) the Relpy is peppered with smiling emoticons. :)
He can have any opposing view he wants. It is after all his view, right or not ;)
The numbers - they don't lie.
There was once a time when Ferraris had more than image to carry their street cars to the top of the performance heap - sadly those days are gone ;)
Again - the numbers speak for themselves :P ;)
yea yea, still makes me wish i had a camry though :P
Sure it does ;) :P
saadie
09-17-2005, 05:07 AM
im not trying to be funny but where do the Enzo and Zonda go on that list??
and the CCR :?
im not trying to be funny but where do the Enzo and Zonda go on that list??
and the CCR :?
Probably exactly where cars that cost MILLIONS of dollars should go ;)
HoboPie
09-17-2005, 02:39 PM
I'd like to point out that while it's very impressive it's not the only factor, especially when the numbers are that close. For example, the F430 is apparently noticably quicker in a straightline than a Gallardo, yet the power to weight is worse.
bmagni
09-17-2005, 02:46 PM
why dont you post hp/lt ???? :wink:
why dont you post hp/lt ???? :wink:
Becasue that's an acedemic number that losers use to justify their piss slow over priced heaps of crap :P ;)
Why don't you post price/Le Mans wins....??? ;)
When the flag drops the bullshit stops - but you knew that :)
gucom
09-17-2005, 03:10 PM
Why don't you post price/Le Mans wins....???
RC, RC, RC u disappoint me there m8...u KNOW that corvette has way less wins, even if u only count 911's and not all-out race cars, than porsche. for the record porsche won the Le Mans 24 hours outright 16 times, 1 of those being 911 (1978 935 was 911-derived) and the number of class victories in Le Mans...i think they stopped counting at 40 or so :P and how many does corvette have? 4? 5?
and in case u say only the current generation counts...i believe porsche has won the GT2 class ever since the 996 started racing on le mans, which was probably in '98 or so...
Why don't you post price/Le Mans wins....???
RC, RC, RC u disappoint me there m8...u KNOW that corvette has way less wins, even if u only count 911's and not all-out race cars, than porsche. for the record porsche won the Le Mans 24 hours outright 16 times, 1 of those being 911 (1978 935 was 911-derived) and the number of class victories in Le Mans...i think they stopped counting at 40 or so :P and how many does corvette have? 4? 5?
and in case u say only the current generation counts...i believe porsche has won the GT2 class ever since the 996 started racing on le mans, which was probably in '98 or so...
Gucom, Gucom, Gucom - you disapoint me there m8... you do the typical "ricer fly by move"....
It is obvious that when one considers the Corvette is a SINGLE car not a manufacturer, that the comparison would be to the class entered and races run since the model in quesiton was conceived ;)
Nice try though :P
gucom
09-17-2005, 03:30 PM
ok so as i said, even if u just count 911's they still have WAY more wins than corvettes...nice try of covering that up though :P
ok so as i said, even if u just count 911's they still have WAY more wins than corvettes...nice try of covering that up though :P
The 911 doesn't run agains the Vette - if it did it would lose - so it doesn't :P
gucom
09-17-2005, 04:09 PM
ok i looked it up couldnt find 2004 resutls fast enough they might follow later...but considering the 911's are in a class lower, look at how few laps there have been between the 1st vette and the 1st 911 in the last couple of years (and in 2001 a couple of 911s actually beat all corvettes!):
2005 -17 laps
2004 ?? laps
2003 -6 laps
2002 -13 laps
2001 +5 laps
2000 -8 laps
at the +/- 330-350 laps they cover, and considering the 911 is a class lower, most of these differences are nothing at all...so dont be too sure that porsches wouldnt beat the vettes if they were in GT1...and otherwise porsche could turn the GT2 roadcar into a racecar for the GT1 series if thats allowed, and beat the crap out of the vettes :P
also these porsches were all privateer teams, while the vettes were sort of factory teams (pratt and miller being a sort of "corvette racing" just like prodrive was aston martin racing in 2005)
artypossum
09-17-2005, 04:09 PM
I usually don't post, today's an exception though;because of this ridiculous post. Christ, why give a shit about the bloody performance of cars? It's childish. Squabbling about the hp/lb ratio or le mans victories of a car or another is not being passionate, it's being blind. Forthermore, why be so narrow minded and hate particular cars, they are just cars; you can't hate one until you drive it. It's silliness, truly.
I usually don't post, today's an exception though;because of this ridiculous post. Christ, why give a shit about the bloody performance of cars? It's childish. Squabbling about the hp/lb ratio or le mans victories of a car or another is not being passionate, it's being blind. Forthermore, why be so narrow minded and hate particular cars, they are just cars; you can't hate one until you drive it. It's silliness, truly.
It's a good thing you seldom post - it appears when you do they are incoherent rantings... ;)
What have you driven that you base your opinions on? ;)
gucom
09-17-2005, 04:30 PM
RC plz be so kind to shine your light of wisdom over the figures i jsut presented? :P :wink:
RC plz be so kind to shine your light of wisdom over the figures i jsut presented? :P :wink:
Who cares about laps? ;) Lets see winner / losers board. :P
1zippo1
09-17-2005, 04:34 PM
I would love to see the Z06 tested on the NS by SportAuto.
And a review by Tiff or Jason Plato would be welcome as well...
I would love to see the Z06 tested on the NS by SportAuto.
And a review by Tiff or Jason Plato would be welcome as well...
We would all like to see these tests.. ;)
But will they be honest is the real question... ;)
artypossum
09-17-2005, 04:36 PM
Rc45, perhaps take some english lessons. I don't need to drive anything to tell you all that it is just bloody trivial, all of it. I'll tell you that the Z06 is the fucking greatest if it really means so much to you, my point is, I don't give a fuck. It's fine that you worship that car, just don't go about insulting others because they don't share your opinion.
gucom
09-17-2005, 04:49 PM
RC plz be so kind to shine your light of wisdom over the figures i jsut presented? :P :wink:
Who cares about laps? ;) Lets see winner / losers board. :P
cheap way of getting out of it RC, very cheap. Thing is, as i said even in a class lower porsche is very close to the vettes, and since they race in different class there is no winner between them. if u look at class victories though, porsche humiliates corvette completely.
I would love to see the Z06 tested on the NS by SportAuto.
And a review by Tiff or Jason Plato would be welcome as well...
We would all like to see these tests.. :wink:
But will they be honest is the real question... :wink:
aw man RC after all that stuff about US car mags being or not being biased and all, u give us THIS???
about Tiff and Jaso, of the televised car reviews they are probably the most serious. and the SA Supertest is number-wise the most reliable source of information IMO...so lets jsut hope it'll test the car and then accept the results as true?
bmagni
09-17-2005, 04:49 PM
why dont you post hp/lt ???? :wink:
Becasue that's an acedemic number that losers use to justify their piss slow over priced heaps of crap :P ;)
What about the M5's lb/hp, its sure much more higher than all this cars and in a straight line performs the same, or the opposite, the Veyron thet has a 4.XX lb/hp and accelerates like hell but in the twisties the story is different, so I don't think these numbers say much. So IMO you're doing the same thing "losers" do just with different numbers. Its just another variable ;)
Those numbers again:
sub 3.6ish-s 0-60 - 11.6ish-s 1/4 mile @ 125mph+, 7m42s Northloop, 200mph top speed
These are the important numbers
- and all this for $65,000USD
If Ferrari or Lambo or Porsche had a plant to mass produce a car, it would be equally priced, and it would perform the same. But they don't sell quantity, they sell quality.
The Vette, is a car for the mass, besides as its mass produced, it isnt made of the best quality, GM makes cars for the mass. Sure they've made it better each year, but nothing made in a machine has the same quality as a handcrafted product. ;)
If its all about the performance lets talk just about that, and not prices nor interiors.
Why don't you post price/Le Mans wins....??? ;)
When the flag drops the bullshit stops - but you knew that :)
Cause price/LM wins is totally different, theyre not running stock, the cost of each car is different, besides GM is one of the car companies with most resources, so they can invest a bit more money in that. Advantage to GM :D
gucom
09-17-2005, 04:52 PM
ow and if its just price/performance ratio ur talking about, get an Ultima GTR or a Radical or a Caterham or something like htat
Rc45, perhaps take some english lessons. I don't need to drive anything to tell you all that it is just bloody trivial, all of it. I'll tell you that the Z06 is the fucking greatest if it really means so much to you, my point is, I don't give a fuck. It's fine that you worship that car, just don't go about insulting others because they don't share your opinion.
If it bothered you that much why reply :)
The Z06 is not the greatest, never has been and never will be. Perhaps YOU need to take some English lessons. That way when you read emoticon peppered sarcy rhetoric on a web forum you wont get you juvenile panties in a wad. :)
Read the topic again: It is simple stating that the numbr are out, and they are good. :)
Thing is, as i said even in a class lower porsche is very close to the vettes, and since they race in different class there is no winner between them. if u look at class victories though, porsche humiliates corvette completely.
Imagine for a moment GM did not make just one Corvette with 3 variants.. but did as Porsche and Ferrari do, create mild street, regular street, wild street, uber street and then even race-only versions from $50,000 all the way to $400,000.
Then they would be able to flood each and every clas with multiple versions of cars that are rehomolagate year afetr year to fill every possible category that exists.
You would then also see "class dominance and field dominance" from GM the company.
The reality is they don't - so you have Corvette the CAR versus the entire fields of many manufacturers.. :)
So to once again take a breath of reality, the CAR Corvette took on the Class GT and if I am not mistaken won 2000, 2001, 2002 and then 2004 and then 2005 or something like that? (Can't be bothered to Google these facts.. )
Anyway, it is a case of enetering for X years - and winning X-1 or soemthign liek that.. quite an achievment for a CAR versus entire companies that race multiple classes with multiple pupose engineered race cars ;)
BTW where is Porsches entrant in this class ? ;)
ow and if its just price/performance ratio ur talking about, get an Ultima GTR or a Radical or a Caterham or something like htat
Hardly the same thing.
The cars in the Z06's class offer something those go-carts do not.
Practicality. :)
Otherwise.. guess what all us high performance car nuts with a budget would be driving :)
Common sense my man... common sense ;)
Sir_GT
09-17-2005, 07:18 PM
im not trying to be funny but where do the Enzo and Zonda go on that list??
and the CCR :?
Probably exactly where cars that cost MILLIONS of dollars should go ;)
Well, I'm not trying to be funny, but wouldn't a properly engined Elfin Clubman (or a Type-R engined Ariel Atom) smoke everything on that list?
graywolf624
09-17-2005, 08:24 PM
So while Ferrari and Porsche wich are relativly small companies yet very sucsesfull cuz of what they are,(yes I know they are not that small at least not Ferrari, but compared ) makes cars for alot of classes to be "the best" in their class and pretty much are on the podium in every class they puts one in..... GM who are a enourmous company only manage to make one car, and this are not a competitor to the others in anything apart from the performance they have managed to get out of it in the last years, earlier vettes have been a joke performance wise IMO.....and its a known fact that American car companies have been to Europe to "learn" about handling
Not to throw gas on the fire.. But brembo... One could also argue the europeans have been to america to learn about engines, given how many of them use american engines in their cars.
Gm makes plenty of good cars in other classes, but only one for performance. But if you want to focus on that level, then you need to think more fiat as the controling interest in ferrari as compared to gm controlling interest in corvette. Then they look roughly similar.
im not trying to be funny but where do the Enzo and Zonda go on that list??
and the CCR :?
Probably exactly where cars that cost MILLIONS of dollars should go ;)
Well, I'm not trying to be funny, but wouldn't a properly engined Elfin Clubman (or a Type-R engined Ariel Atom) smoke everything on that list?
Sure.. up to 150mph.. ;) WHich means that they would dominate the race for - oh say.. 17 seconds :P
im not trying to be funny but where do the Enzo and Zonda go on that list??
and the CCR :?
Probably exactly where cars that cost MILLIONS of dollars should go ;)
umm well first off neither one of the cars i mentioned is in the millions range.
2nd off, for the price of a 430 you could buy what 2 maybe 3 vettes, so technically they are not in the same category so one shouldn't be comparing the 2.
and 3rd, the Vette is chevy's top sports car correct?? and yet you try to compare it to Ferrari's low end sports car, that just doesn't seem fair. if your going to compare 2 cars they should be in the same category and the vette being chevy's top car and the Enzo being Ferrari's top car they are the ones that you should be comparing to one another.
comparing chevy's top sports car to Ferrari's low end sports car to make your self feel better about owing a vette is ridiculous. compare apples to apples man.
and its not Ferrari's fault that chevy chooses to go for outright speed over a total package, of speed, power, quality, technology, and handling, which of course a total package will always cost more.
i have always found it funny how magazines most of the time only compare the vette and the gt40 which are the top sports cars from their manufactures to Ferrari's low end sports car. tisk tisk!!!!
Spoken like typical fanboy. :)
graywolf624
09-17-2005, 10:24 PM
have always found it funny how magazines most of the time only compare the vette and the gt40 which are the top sports cars from their manufactures to Ferrari's low end sports car. tisk tisk!!!!
No offense but this is utterly rediculous. Comparing the top level car regardless of cost is just retarded. I could make you a car that costs a billion a car personally that would blow everything else away, but what does that prove? That with enough money you can hire the right people to do anything. You need to compare the car to the car in its class. In effect performance wise the f430 and gt40 are in the vettes class(even if price wise theres some descrepency). The enzo is in a whole other class.. Gts versus supercars.
Yet more proof you subscribe to the poser way.. :) ;)
Price seems to be the most important thing for you - and if that is how you were raised, so be it. ;)
I guess the fact that the F430 costs $200,000+ is the most importnt thing. This way only people of a certain station in life are allowed entry. ;)
Some people don't care to join the country club - of course the members all say it's because they can't afford it :P
:)
So the only comparison you have is price then?
Interesting.
graywolf624
09-17-2005, 10:59 PM
and the top of the line chevy sports car shouldnt be compared to the bottom of the line Ferrari.
Why?
They are both gts, they both have performance as there main objective and perform equivellently, they both use high technology...
Just about the only things I see different are the ferrari has a better interior and the corvette has better reliability.
The enzo is a super car..
The vette and f430 are gt cars.
Entirely different class.
Yet again top of the line is pointless.. If I got someone to back a billion dollar car that does everything the best, does that make me the best car manufacturer? The best at performance? The best at anything really?
No.. at some point you can do almost anything given enough money.
graywolf624
09-17-2005, 11:02 PM
well why not compare the standard vette to the 430?? why compare the z06??
If you want to compare the zo6 to the stradale go ahead.. But it isnt out yet is it?
graywolf624
09-17-2005, 11:04 PM
What does chevy building or not building a supercar have to do with the zo6 compared to the f430? I mean ferrari doesnt make a minivan, but you don't see me considering that part of the equation.
So the only comparison you have is price then?
Interesting.
im a little confused, as you were the first one to mention anything about money here.
im not trying to be funny but where do the Enzo and Zonda go on that list??
and the CCR :?
Probably exactly where cars that cost MILLIONS of dollars should go ;)
you were the one to FIRST say that they are in the same class due to price, and all i have to say is that price doesnt make a difference.
ill reapeat my self for the 3rd time now, each company chooses to go about things thier own way and if one car costs more then the other so be it, that doesnt mean that they arent in the same class.
its really simple and im suprised how you are having such a hard time understanding it.
The fact that a $65,000 car can run beat a $200,000 car and run up on the heals of a $400,000 car - but get trounced by a $million dollar is rather more of a bolster for the lower cost car and a damning of the higher priced car ;)
Afterall, the idea is that the more money spent, the better it ought to be. Right?
Well it seems for the same money there is nothing.
For twice the money there is nothing.
For thrice the money there is nothing.
For four time the money there is nothing.
However, around five times the money this get interesting... ;)
It seems that only near 8 times the money is there a marked performance difference.
Again - for you it seems that to be good it must be expensive - but numbers again show otherwise... ;)
hehe
graywolf624
09-17-2005, 11:13 PM
You have some weird ideas man.
When a company produces a product that competes directly with another product(the ferrari f430 and the vette) that doesnt mean they are competing on every product they make. In fact, other then perhaps a cache pushing down or up associating the car with other member cars, the other cars in there fold matter absolute 0. The cars are in the same category cause they are cross shopped. There is no market category called xs top of the line car. People dont go out and buy from the category... If that were the case toyota wouldnt be the top seller in the world for sure. People look for certain charachteristics on cars that pertain to the persons usage thereof. When they are adequately similar they are considered in the same class. The f430 is adequately similar to the vette.
graywolf624
09-17-2005, 11:14 PM
well you dont want to compare the top Ferrari to the top chevy, simply cause the top Ferrari is considered a supercar. thats not Ferrari's fault.
Why would I consider it anyones fault? The zo6 isnt in the supercar class and it isn't supposed to be. It is in the gt and thus the f430s class. Thus it needs to be compared to the f430.
ok ill leave the Enzo out of this for a sec.
the Z06, modified vette correct??
430, standard correct??
now do you feel better that it takes a modified vette to do better then a standard 430??
I'll bite :P
Well - we went throurgh this with the C5 Z06 and the 360CS already.
The C5 Z06 blows the F360 into the weeds - and runs neck and neck with the 360CS.
The same seems to be developing in teh C6 Z06 vs F430 battle - as in it blows it away ;) - so no doubt the F430CS will run wheel to wheel with the C6 Z06.
So again proof they are performance class equals.. but price unequals ;)
and when you speak of price, you forget that the vette is HUGELY MASS PRODUCED where as the 430 isnt, and that going to play a large part in the price of the car also the vette is hardly a total package where as the 430 is. in clarkson's words "its damn perfect" or something along those lines.
also lets not forget that each car manufacture has different goals to achieve and i highly doubt that Ferrari's goal is "lets do better then chevy" where as i would bet my life one of chevy's goals is "lets do better then Ferrari", its typical american ego.
What has ego got to do with it? GM has again produced a car that is the performance equal of all the cars people want - but few can afford.
That's what it's all about.
In order for you to enjoy this kind of performance, you either have to suck it up and drive the "cheap" Z06 (which it seems you couldn't od - because you are all about image ;)) - or dream, because you don't have the $250,000 to get a car that has the kind of performance you dream of ;)
And if you are stinking rich and want to prove your wealth, knock yourself out ;)
didnt they 430 challenge debut recently??
The Challenge is not street legal ;)
artypossum
09-18-2005, 04:01 AM
Excuse me, has anyone mentioned which car would post a better time on a curvy mkontain pass?
gucom
09-18-2005, 06:57 AM
hmmm erm for ronin...if ur comparing 2 cars, ur just comparing those 2 cars, where they stand in their companies' order doesnt matter, ur just comparing those 2 cars nothing else.
now as for the le mans discussion that seems to be kind of forgotten, Corvette makes a race car out of their sports car, so does porsche. The porsche is in a lower class and raced by sort of small independent teams. the vette is in the higher class and raced by a factory-backed team. still the porsche is very close.
the fact u like to ignore is that theyre both race cars based on REGULAR road cars. its not like the GT3 is some hyper race car with just enough practicality to get a license plate, its a normal road car.
ah well at the end of the day i'd still want other cars rather than a vette, cos the vette simply doesnt inspire me as much as those other cars, i dont get really fascinated by the 'vette where other cars do fascinate me. for the 115k euros a Z06 costs here in holland, i could also get me a 2nd hand 993 Turbo, or a lotus exige and rent an appartment for a couple of years...
graywolf624
09-18-2005, 10:04 AM
now do you feel better that it takes a modified vette to do better then a standard 430??
How the hell is a car sold at the plant modified? Its a seperate model maybe, but neither the stradale or the zo6 are modified. Neither gm nor ferrari are tuner companies or individuals changing others cars here.
and when you speak of price, you forget that the vette is HUGELY MASS PRODUCED where as the 430 isnt, and that going to play a large part in the price of the car also the vette is hardly a total package where as the 430 is. in clarkson's words "its damn perfect" or something along those lines.
Non mass produced only makes a difference if you want a car that no one else has, otherwise its also moot. As for total package thats what is called a matter of opinion. In this case its also one given by a person who a) hasn't reviewed the vette. b) is well known to be bias.
also lets not forget that each car manufacture has different goals to achieve and i highly doubt that Ferrari's goal is "lets do better then chevy" where as i would bet my life one of chevy's goals is "lets do better then Ferrari", its typical american ego.
Actually ferrari does say lets do better then its competitors. Not necessarily Chevy. It isn't about ego, its that to sell a product in this world of ours you have to develop a better product then the other guy. Take a simple marketing class and you'll learn that.
For the record I love ferraris.. I dream of owning a 308, irrational though it is. That doesn't change whether the zo6 can be compared to the f430. As for the outcome, I'm not going to comment cause I dont have to make that decision (sadly)
Excuse me, has anyone mentioned which car would post a better time on a curvy mkontain pass?
You are excused - and at the current time we have a 7m42s from tyhe Nurburgring... as close to such a mountain pass as we have at the moment - and are awaiting the F430 time for a Northloop lap. :)
But don't hold your breath, the F360 was no where near the C5 Z.. and the F360CS again matched it.
So whether you like it or not, it seems that each generation of Z06 and FxxxCS are pretty evenly matched... ;)
You could call them "performance peers" - but I am sure you won't.. :)
******
BTW.... this thread was not conceived to start a "Z06 beats all" debate. Because anyone with a brain and a pulse knows this is not true... ;)
The thread was simply a way to post a set of numbers that until now have always shown "other" makes at the top of the list... ;) But not any more.. :P
|Nuno|
09-18-2005, 01:13 PM
But don't hold your breath, the F360 was no where near the C5 Z.. and the F360CS again matched it.
True, but what you seem to forget is that in the Ferrari's case we're talking about an independent magazine test, which by the way (just like the C6's test, had pretty poor acceleration numbers). The C5 Z06's 7:56 time, on the other hand, is a factory claimed time with a factory driver and car. Not quite the same. :wink:
Not that I'm doubting GM's claims, but it simply isn't a good basis for comparison... Different drivers, different day, etc... Even more on a track like the 'Ring, being as long and demanding as it is.
Not that I'm putting the C6 Z06 down. It's a great deal, at least in the U.S. If you're only interested in numbers, it's the way to go. No questions about it. With that said, it lacks (to me) many things that a Ferrari has to offer, like the sound, feel, styling, etc...
On a side note, all this Vette talk got me thinking... I mean, I dream of owning a Ferrari one day but I doubt I'll be able to afford a newer (faster) model. But I'm also interested in track events, where a fast car would be ideal. A cheap fast car that could be also used on the road, but not an everyday car - a track beast, just without all the transportation hassles... Over here, the Vette costs about 115 000 € and has a baaad image - no one will buy it, so the depreciation will be crazy. So yeah, I kinda see myself buying a used one in 6 or 7 years...
Just how bad is the depreciation in the U.S.?
Over here, the Vette costs about 115 000 € and has a baaad image - no one will buy it, so the depreciation will be crazy. So yeah, I kinda see myself buying a used one in 6 or 7 years...
Just how bad is the depreciation in the U.S.?
Well - the people who want Z06's in Europe imported them at great expense since the end of 2000. (the 2001 model) :) Some new, some used.
Some are stock, some are modded. Some mild.. and some 800rwhp+ wild.. ;)
The 115,000 € is the C6 Z06 you are referring to.. correct? Well - first off, the car hasn't had a chance to be bought and sold and used value determined,but overall for what it is and the folks that buy it, it will probably see the same depreciation over time that F-Cars and P-Cars suffer from.
You will be alarmed to see how badly F-Cars and P-Cars depreciate in Europe compared to how they keep their value here.
It's all about the scarcity and demand - right?
The fact that the overall quality of an F550 is as good as an F360 Vert seems to make no difference to the market place here.
The F360 Vert still costs more used, than a similar generation F550 (or F575 for that matter).
The 550 cost $220,000 new.. yet you saw them sitting used on dealer floors for $150,000 not selling while a used F360 carried a sticker of $260,000+ during the F360 feeding frenzy.
And truth be told, the F550 is the better more traditional Ferrari than the F360 any day.
So - back to the C6 Z06, you will still need money - lots of it, to get one, used or new. Set your sights on importing a used C5 Z06 from the USA and have a blast for the next 7 years ;)
|Nuno|
09-18-2005, 05:47 PM
Well - the people who want Z06's in Europe imported them at great expense since the end of 2000. (the 2001 model) .:) Some new, some used.
Yeah, pretty much all of the Vettes that I've seen over here are imported from Germany. That's what makes them cheap - you pay less taxes the older the car is, and few people want Vettes. Hell, I bet that if I walked down the street right now and asked people about the Vette, out of 10, maybe 1 or 2 would know what it is...
The 115,000 € is the C6 Z06 you are referring to.. correct?
Yep.
You will be alarmed to see how badly F-Cars and P-Cars depreciate in Europe compared to how they keep their value here.
Yeah, I know. You U.S. people are weird. :lol: I mean, I've seen F430's selling for $300K and more. Seriously, I love the car and would buy it if I had the money, but $300K?! That's just crazy. Again, if I had the money, I could walk into the Ferrari dealership tomorrow and buy a new F430 without the waiting list crap. Gotta love Europe. 8)
And over here, some Porsches actually hold their value better than the Ferraris. The 993 is a good example - it has kept its value very well. The 996, unless it's the Turbo, not so much.
The fact that the overall quality of an F550 is as good as an F360 Vert seems to make no difference to the market place here.
The F360 Vert still costs more used, than a similar generation F550 (or F575 for that matter).
The 550 cost $220,000 new.. yet you saw them sitting used on dealer floors for $150,000 not selling while a used F360 carried a sticker of $260,000+ during the F360 feeding frenzy.
And truth be told, the F50 is the better more traditional Ferrari than the F360 any day
Again, over here things are a bit different, but I see your point. :) As a used car, the 360 is a terrible deal. The 550, on the other hand, is almost a bargain.
But here in Portugal, the GT's hold their value a litle better, though the V8's still have the uper hand. Which is strange, if you think that the 12's are rarer and at least as good. :hmm:
A good 2000 550 will set you about 130, 000 €, while a Modena of the same year will be around 120, 000 € (without options). Not bad, if you consider that these cars actually get driven. :) But in the U.S., you could sell a 2004 360 Spider now for what you bought it. That doesn't happen here.
And in Portugal there's other thing that helps Ferrari's resale values. They are RARE. So far this year, only 14 new cars have been sold.
So - back to the C6 Z06, you will still need money - lots of it, to get one, used or new. Set your sights on importing a used C5 Z06 from the USA and have a blast for the next 7 years :wink:
Yeah, for sure. A 2002 C6 Cabrio goes for about 65/70 K €, with all the options. But new, it costs around 100, 000 €... That's crazy depreciation, but still a lot of money.
But I'm just thinking out loud, really. I don't even have a license yet... It's just an idea that pleases me - having a street legal track car. The Vette is just another option... And for now, studying the market is all I can do.
Besides having good grades to get a job with a decent pay check, obviously. :mrgreen:
And sorry for the off topic. :oops:
graywolf624
09-18-2005, 06:02 PM
they are only a US engine far back as lot of them if not most have been developed further to make them better engines...
The same goes for the handling brembo. The US has had good handling cars for longer then you give credit. (the c4 back in the 80s and the camaro of the time were equivellent to the porsches and things in their price range, albeit a focus more stiffly sprung hurting wet weather). I'd say youd have to at least go back to the early 80s maybe further.. The american muscle car hasnt been typical in my lifetime. Now if you want to claim credit for the tr6s and such from the 70s go ahead.. But that means the Americans get credit for the engines too. Several of your favorite cars nowadays were designed by Americans too, globalization kinda makes defining a country where the product comes from useless. In fact I wouldnt give credit to America or any other country or say any has the best car development from a design standpoint in todays day and age. That being said if you say something moronic like you did about handling Im going to hit you back on it. Or do we need to talk about how the designer from several key new cars in europe are American, there made in mexico, parts come from germany, ect.
but GM are more than Chevrolet and thats one brand under the great GM umbrella and the only true performance car would be the vette, even if there are hairdresser editions of that one too....
Ferrari are a dedicated performance company under Fiat and not the same as GM at all.....
Hence gm should be compared to fiat as I said.. Not ferrari.
Though gm as a whole does have other performance cars/sports cars:
vx770, monaro, the new solstice, cadillac cts-v (to name but a few)
Sir_GT
09-19-2005, 04:53 PM
im not trying to be funny but where do the Enzo and Zonda go on that list??
and the CCR :?
Probably exactly where cars that cost MILLIONS of dollars should go ;)
Well, I'm not trying to be funny, but wouldn't a properly engined Elfin Clubman (or a Type-R engined Ariel Atom) smoke everything on that list?
Sure.. up to 150mph.. ;) WHich means that they would dominate the race for - oh say.. 17 seconds :P
Actually, IIRC, a properly engined Elfin Clubman uses the same small-block V8 that the Corvette uses, and Elfin said that they can tune it all the way up to 800 bhp. IIRC, this is what the boys behind the Ultima also say.
So theoretically, they should smoke everything on that list. Full stop.
...but, as you've said... although you can use a Clubman daily, (and an ultima to some respect) I do not actually think they have a boot. At least not one the size of the Vette's. So as an overall package, I must say the Vette really does have a strong case going for it.
Oh, and there is actually another car that matches the Vette's 0-60 time, also has a boot, is similarly priced, AND has rear seats.
It's called an EVO VIII FQ-400. :)
graywolf624
09-19-2005, 05:42 PM
but the you dont need to go further back in time on the vette than pre RC`s and they where pigs in the handling department....
False.. the corvette from the 80s handled well compared to its competition at the time. Now granted the cars of the 80s all were behind at that time, but thats another story. Youd have to go back to the stingrays to find a poor handling vette for its time period. Put an 80s corvette against almost any 80s car of remotely close price on a race track and it will hold its own.
I dont need to go all the way back, but if we are to do that we end up with the European cars as the first ones anyway so........
If we were doing that I could mention where almost all the european manufacturers failed and are owned by the Americans now.. Or that the American sales have always dwarfed the europeans.. But yet again, Im trying to show you how moronic that is, cause there is no American car anymore.. Or european car anymore.. Or any other car any more.. The ctsv is as much american as is european.. But the new bmws are as much european as they are American. The distinction has blurred and I doubt youll find a single car that has been designed, parts all made, assembled and sold all in the same country.
I just got done reading stories about Americna styling influences on European cars in terms of colors and shapes. The same day I read a story the other way.
Yes maybe GM should be compared to Fiat, but Ferrari should be compared to Chevrolet and then it still would be the poor lonesome Vette against a wolfpack of Ferrari`s who would destroy it as a full package......
Why would anyone compare a mainstream manufacturer with a good car to a primary supercar luxury car manufacturer. A fairer comparison would be fords aston.. I don't like aston, but they are certainly competition for ferrari.
Neema702
09-19-2005, 05:52 PM
you know... i sat down and wrote about a page of my argument, and then realized everything I'm about to say has either already been said, or will just add diff, yet similar dimensions to previous arguments that are opinion based, and therefore will never be resolved.
so instead... i would just like to tell RC45 that most car enthusiasts will agree with you in that the Z06 is an AMAZING fucking car. not only can it run with most exotics, but it can smoke cars 2 and 3 times its price. but who gives a shit. YOU DONT COMPARE A Z06 to a Ferrari, Lambo, or any other exotic. They are in 2 diff catagories. most ferrari owners will never walk away from a race, after getting killed by a z06 saying "i wish i had that car." im not sure if i can say the same for the z06 owners, or at least for most z06 owners.
a z06 is bought by somone who cant afford a new ferrari, and would like to run with them if he ever sees one. you dont buy a ferrari so that you can beat the z06's of the world, you buy a ferrari because its a FERRARI. and when i say that, you know what i mean RC45. c'mon man, you know you would love to own a ferrari. you can park it right next to your ferrari slayer :D
i mean, i think its great that the new Z06 can do a 3.6, and that ferrari claims the F430 does a 4 (3.5 from other sources). but if given the choice, do you think the F1, LeMans, etc... racers of the world would take a Z06 or a F430? and i dont think you can really call them "fanboys."
graywolf624
09-19-2005, 05:55 PM
you buy a ferrari because its a FERRARI
That is the definition of fanboy though. Your buying the car for your view of the badge rather then any realworld facts. Not that I see any problem with that cause Id do it myself, but that is the reason why.
Neema702
09-19-2005, 06:04 PM
sorry graywolf, i should have elaborated on that point. when i say FERRARI, i dont just mean its popularity and history, im talking about the responsiveness around a corner, im talking about throttle response, im taking about the feel of the clutch, the feel of the shifter, the interior of the car, the looks of the car, etc....
bmagni
09-19-2005, 06:16 PM
So to once again take a breath of reality, the CAR Corvette took on the Class GT and if I am not mistaken won 2000, 2001, 2002 and then 2004 and then 2005 or something like that? (Can't be bothered to Google these facts.. )
Firs of all its GTS class :D
2000 was won by a Team Oreca Viper, my favorite GTS cars ever, IMO from 1997-2000, they were the best looking and best performers, in 2000 they were the overall winners of the Daytona 24, first time a GTS did that :shock:
2001,2002 were won by vettes
2003 - Ferrari 550 M
2004, 2005 - vettes again
graywolf624
09-19-2005, 06:19 PM
im talking about the responsiveness around a corner, im talking about throttle response, im taking about the feel of the clutch, the feel of the shifter, the interior of the car, the looks of the car, etc....
How do you know the vette doesnt have all but the interior(remembering looks are in the eye of the beholder). Have you driven it? Have you driven the f430?
sorry graywolf, i should have elaborated on that point. when i say FERRARI, i dont just mean its popularity and history, im talking about the responsiveness around a corner, im talking about throttle response, im taking about the feel of the clutch, the feel of the shifter, the interior of the car, the looks of the car, etc....
Where are you in Texas... there is bound to be a Z06 owner near you that will take you for a spin... I'm pretty sure you may have slightly different opinion after some edumacation.. ;)
Just because the Z06 is the "poor mans hot rod" doesn't mean it gives up anything to the "image" cars. :)
Neema702
09-20-2005, 10:34 AM
i live in the great city of sugar land, right next to you. and although i dont have the pics or vids to prove it, i have ridden in a C5 Z06, and although ive never even seen the F430 in person, i have ridden in a 360, and i gotta tell you RC45... the Z06 is a beast, but that 360 is something else. the feel of a 360, far outweights the grunt of a Z06.
i live in the great city of sugar land, right next to you. and although i dont have the pics or vids to prove it, i have ridden in a C5 Z06, and although ive never even seen the F430 in person, i have ridden in a 360, and i gotta tell you RC45... the Z06 is a beast, but that 360 is something else. the feel of a 360, far outweights the grunt of a Z06.
Feel schmeel.. :)
The car behind is still slower.. ;)
But if image is important, then have at it.
Neema702
09-20-2005, 11:09 AM
lol... well said RC
Actually it would and did.
There are back to back tests September 1988 for example - the 214hp 911 Club Sport vs 245hp C4 Z51 had the Vette the clear winner by Car & Drivers tests ;)
April 1991 the 285hp C4 ZR1 vs top dog 315hp 911 Turbo was again crowned the overall (including handling again) winner.. ;)
They may be old and plastic - but they werer not all dogs ;)
And again in December 2004, the C6 Z51 fairly clobbered the 911 Carrera... ;)
Neema702
09-20-2005, 02:47 PM
not sure about the C4 comparisons, but as for the C6, the vette only won by one point, and 5 of those were from value. if you look at powertrain, they both scored 46 out of 50, and if you look at chassis (performance, steering feel, etc...) the porsche got a 59 out of 60, while the vette got a 53 out of 60.
both still great cars, but the porsche has that "feel and response" i was talking about earlier...
not sure about the C4 comparisons, but as for the C6, the vette only won by one point, and 5 of those were from value. if you look at powertrain, they both scored 46 out of 50, and if you look at chassis (performance, steering feel, etc...) the porsche got a 59 out of 60, while the vette got a 53 out of 60.
both still great cars, but the porsche has that "feel and response" i was talking about earlier...
Feel and response is subjective. :)
The article Dec 04 C&D article is about as biased as it can be.
The fac is the C6 Z51 blew the Carrera out of the water on every count. They then loaded subject "feelings" to skew the numbers. I mean reading the article it is so obvious they begrudgingly gave hte C6 Z51 the win.
The first say the Vette is the obvious choice, faster lighter, quicker, turns better, stops better and is $20K cheaper.. then they go on about some other crap.
The bottom line is EVERY Carrera owner I have EVER met - bar none - got the car to show they could afford it and have "reached" that certain staiton.
Period.
Very few have the balls to admit they bought the "image" that Porsche portrays.
If they really wanted a true "sports car" they would have bought something faster and or cheaper.
Some people have so much money they get "Silver Spooned" into the "image" thing... more power to them, but they will also have the latest and greatest TV, stereo and clothes - as well as do all the "image correct" things with their spare time.. ;)
Again, more power to them.
But to try and pass of a winner/loser in any comparison as the "one with the high society image" as the winner - is just stupid - and elitist... ;)
But - hey more power to you.
If you have the money and you were raised that way - flaunt it. :)
If you don't really care about what other people think or say, you will choose what you like - without any need for justification :)
This is true for watches, cars, houses, jewelry and clothes and any other material possesions you car to value yourslef by.
Sadly, some people even choose life partners by these criteria. ;)
Cool stats....I like the corvettes....however, personally, i'd rather have a 911....but it'as a great car...
graywolf624
09-20-2005, 09:04 PM
Feel is subjective of course.
nthfinity
09-21-2005, 01:20 AM
I must say tough its kind of pathtetic to try and make the vette out to be more than it is in Lemans dude....the few wins the vette got are nothing compared to other manufactors.....and if you think Porsche are afraid to face the vette you are in lala land......
im sure stuttgart isnt very worried, but 911 sales are currenly down, while vette sales are up :P
to begin with, the vette is a highly tuned engine making a fair amount of power while still being reliable... the small block has 50 years of development, where they have had reliability for far longer then a new engine made for the new model poseur car.
next, the chassis, and suspension are simply beyond the development of european competition, all without the high d/f aero development.
I must say tough its kind of pathtetic to try and make the vette out to be more than it is in Lemans dude....the few wins the vette got are nothing compared to other manufactors.....and if you think Porsche are afraid to face the vette you are in lala land...... :roll:
I missed this one... ;)
Remember the Vette has an 80% win record at Le Mans... :P They only tried what, 5 times.. (maybe 6) and have won it 4 times. Not bad for a loser plastic car with no history... ;)
Shinigami
09-21-2005, 07:35 AM
Very good numbers from the Vette. Good to see there's some great strides being made in the American automotive industry.
However, having said that...
Whoa. That's a lot of hostility to a guy with an opposing view. I would think that a moderator would show a little more respect and maturity.
Not one iota of hostility. :) the Relpy is peppered with smiling emoticons. :)
Just my two cents, but you use smilie emoticons to such a degree, they completely lose their meaning when reading your posts ;)
Everytime I read one of them, it gives me a feeling you're not only taking the reader for an idiot, but at the same time you're trying to kiss up and make friends by adding a wink at the end ;)
And he's not the only one who thinks that as a mod, your behaviour is less then amusing and turns me off the forum ;)
You insult others on a very frequent basis (in this very thread too) and of course you find the need to add a wink at the very end of the sentence (not just post) as a little reminder of "whack, I hit you. Oh, I'm sorry, it was just a joke" type of attitude ;)
Just my two cents... in any case, you'll reply to this with another one of your 'witty' remarks, insult me a bit, and of course you'll add another smilie at the end ;)
And he's not the only one who thinks that as a mod, your behaviour is less then amusing and turns me off the forum ;)
Maybe you are just a hyper sensitive Euro-type and need to lighten up - then again you could just be a stuckup prick.. :roll:
You insult others on a very frequent basis (in this very thread too) and of course you find the need to add a wink at the very end of the sentence (not just post) as a little reminder of "whack, I hit you. Oh, I'm sorry, it was just a joke" type of attitude ;)
Maybe you are just a hyper sensitive Euro-type and need to lighten up - then again you could just be a stuckup prick.. :roll:
Just my two cents... in any case, you'll reply to this with another one of your 'witty' remarks, insult me a bit, and of course you'll add another smilie at the end ;)
Apparently you are just a hyper sensitive Euro-type and a stuckup prick.
Although, it is more likely you just have a superior image of yourself - and the slovenly behaviour of someone not priviledged to be at your executive social station in life probably bothers you even more - I mean no doubt you have more serious and pressing money making engagments than reading my crap anyway.
If you don't like to read my comments don't bother. :fist:
Oh - and that's not a smiley - it is an actual insult. :roll:
P.S. 9 times out of 10 the reader is an idiot. Again - notice there is no smiley.
zondaland
09-21-2005, 10:07 AM
And he's not the only one who thinks that as a mod, your behaviour is less then amusing and turns me off the forum ;)
Maybe you are just a hyper sensitive Euro-type and need to lighten up - then again you could just be a stuckup prick.. :roll:
You insult others on a very frequent basis (in this very thread too) and of course you find the need to add a wink at the very end of the sentence (not just post) as a little reminder of "whack, I hit you. Oh, I'm sorry, it was just a joke" type of attitude ;)
Maybe you are just a hyper sensitive Euro-type and need to lighten up - then again you could just be a stuckup prick.. :roll:
Just my two cents... in any case, you'll reply to this with another one of your 'witty' remarks, insult me a bit, and of course you'll add another smilie at the end ;)
Apparently you are just a hyper sensitive Euro-type and a stuckup prick.
Although, it is more likely you just have a superior image of yourself - and the slovenly behaviour of someone not priviledged to be at your executive social station in life probably bothers you even more - I mean no doubt you have more serious and pressing money making engagments than reading my crap anyway.
If you don't like to read my comments don't bother. :fist:
Oh - and that's not a smiley - it is an actual insult. :roll:
P.S. 9 times out of 10 the reader is an idiot. Again - notice there is no smiley.
Maybe you're just an arrogant American :wink:
On second thoughts not possible after all Americans and their products are the best the world has to offer :wink:
Neema702
09-21-2005, 10:12 AM
hey RC, feel free to talk shit about me too for what im about to say. but shit man, calm down a little bit. your getting way to defensive over subject matter that doesnt mean anyhting. we are all just expressing opinions, but i have a feeling u think ur opinions are facts.
the only reason i even brought up the numbers from the C/D article was because of your statement: "And again in December 2004, the C6 Z51 fairly clobbered the 911 Carrera...", then you go on to say "The fac is the C6 Z51 blew the Carrera out of the water on every count. They then loaded subject "feelings" to skew the numbers. I mean reading the article it is so obvious they begrudgingly gave hte C6 Z51 the win." Now... these are staright up opinions, and cant be backed with any hard evidence, unless of course you know the writers of the article and can have them come explain it to us themselves.
your clowning on people because they have a different opinion then you, and thats not cool. if you wanna defend your argument, do it with style and maturity, not thru belittleing and put-downs.
and if you think about it... to say something like "P.S. 9 times out of 10 the reader is an idiot. Again - notice there is no smiley." just shows a lack of character. your insulting 90% of the people that respond to this forum and thats not cool. because ill tell you one thing, i may be 21, but im also a graduate from the # 1 accounting program in the country (McCombs School of Business at UT Austin), an Internal Auditor for HP and getting ready to go to a top 15 law school, so lets not throw out insults when you dont know people. those 9 out of 10 you mentioned, might actually be very highly achieved and intelligent individuals that just might not want to fight with you.
Neema702
09-21-2005, 10:14 AM
nthfinity
next, the chassis, and suspension are simply beyond the development of european competition, all without the high d/f aero development.
are you fucking serious....!
hey RC, feel free to talk shit about me too for what im about to say. but shit man, calm down a little bit. your getting way to defensive over subject matter that doesnt mean anyhting. we are all just expressing opinions, but i have a feeling u think ur opinions are facts.
ACtually when facts are facts - thats what they are.
Opinions are just that.
Disprove a SINGLE fact I offer - if you can.
However, people are free to have whatever opinion they choose.
Oh - and I am quite calm - but I will still call an idiot an idiot if they can't accept a fact.
Such as X is lighter than Y - or X is faster than Y - or X stps quicker than Y - or X is cheaper than Y.
If you don't like X - That is your opinion - but the FACTS of X vs Y are plain and measured.
Thanks :)
the only reason i even brought up the numbers from the C/D article was because of your statement: "And again in December 2004, the C6 Z51 fairly clobbered the 911 Carrera...", then you go on to say "The fac is the C6 Z51 blew the Carrera out of the water on every count. They then loaded subject "feelings" to skew the numbers. I mean reading the article it is so obvious they begrudgingly gave hte C6 Z51 the win." Now... these are staright up opinions, and cant be backed with any hard evidence, unless of course you know the writers of the article and can have them come explain it to us themselves.
Read the article and YOU see the words on paper - complete with contradictions of "feeling".
Again - not disputable.
See - before I bother posting something, I verify that is it factul.
Period.
your clowning on people because they have a different opinion then you, and thats not cool. if you wanna defend your argument, do it with style and maturity, not thru belittleing and put-downs.
Kiss my arse MF. Theres your "style".
Lemme guess - you drive an Audi because it is more stylish than a Camry. :roll:
and if you think about it... to say something like "P.S. 9 times out of 10 the reader is an idiot. Again - notice there is no smiley." just shows a lack of character. your insulting 90% of the people that respond to this forum and thats not cool.
There's no smiley because this is just about true.
Many people respond as if they know something different to what has been measured and quanitified - when in fact they are stating an opinion as if it is fact.
When I state an opinion I make it clear that's what it is .
But when I post a fact - that's what it is - until someone shows a different result form a different test.
Period.
because ill tell you one thing, i may be 21, but im also a graduate from the # 1 accounting program in the country (McCombs School of Business at UT Austin), an Internal Auditor for HP and getting ready to go to a top 15 law school, so lets not throw out insults when you dont know people. those 9 out of 10 you mentioned, might actually be very highly achieved and intelligent individuals that just might not want to fight with you.
Well you "preppy" schooling makes you better equipped to rule the world.. simply by station - doesn't mean you are any more intelligent of better than the next.
You are just lucky enough to have been borne into enough status wealth and support to have access to the right path to "that station where youthink people are better".
Good luck.
nthfinity
next, the chassis, and suspension are simply beyond the development of european competition, all without the high d/f aero development.
are you fucking serious....!
Yes he is.
Funny how all the people who claim that Porsche-this, and Ferrari-that are not actually owners of the cars.
When a GT3 owner steps up and says "My car is superior to another because I have experienced it as such" I acknowledge that they know because they have experience on which base their opinions.
Any one else is a fan boy.
Period.
BTW, same goes for Lambo or ferrari or Viper etc.
People who DRIVE those cars have a basis to challange - fanboys don't.
They should merely state "their opinion".
How about making a fact based comback?
Neema702
09-21-2005, 02:04 PM
Hey RC, i was trying to be nice and mature; but i can see now, that it doesnt work with some fucking trash like yourself. fuck your piece of shit car, fuck all your opinions, and if your really a man, i fuckin live in ur city bitch, so why dont u come talk shit to my face instead of talkin shit on a fuckin forum like some faggot.
everyone on this forum has been calm and patient with u, and all you do is critisize and insult, and why... because you drive a piece of shit Z06 and think you know your shit.
for a 38 year old, you sure are dumb as fuck. your logical argument makes sense, good for you. but it is irrelevant to this conversation. you tried to back up your argument by citing articles in magazines, and when i showed those arguments worked against you, all u had to say was "feel shmeel" like some rtarded uneducated sack of ass.
and as for this whole "You are just lucky enough to have been borne into enough status wealth and support to have access to the right path to "that station where youthink people are better". You can kiss my ass, me and my family have worked our asses off to get where we are now. we started form nothing and made somehting of ourselves, we didnt turn out to be some fuckin american trash like yourself.
no one is argueing with you about the times of cars, or their 0-60's and such, the argument is based on porsche and ferrari making a better all-around car then the z06. and you dont have to admit that, i know you know it, and if you dont, then fuck... you really are as dumb as shit.
You have been proven wrong on this forum several times RC and you know it, its just not that much fun to do it anymore as you just run away when you are owned and stop posting in that thread......
With all due respect.
I have no reason to post "lies" about a car - and then try stand by it.
I post facts with reagrd to cars and specifically the car in quesiton.
I know a lot more about the car, and am privvy to far more accurate data from significant sources than most folks.
As I say - I won't post a fact about a car if its not accurate. Why would I? I have no need to.
At other times an interpretaiton of a political viewpoint or standpoint may appear different - but I have no reason to post a fact this is untrue and try calim otherwise.
But by the same token another opinion based on some fact may be opposite to mine - BUT THE FACT IS STILL THE SAME. Capish?
I wouldn't do it and have no reason to.
Now many of you people to choose to DOUBT some of the facts I provide - but that does nto change them.
Period.
With regard to "being owned" on factual issues - bullfucking shit.
Ganging up on me and trying to show my opinion on certain fact does nto equate to having facts disproven - especially with reagrd to certain cars.
Hey RC, i was trying to be nice and mature; but i can see now, that it doesnt work with some fucking trash like yourself.
You were not being nice or mature - you are just of the opinion that F-cars and P-cars are better - and when someone says they are not, youget all ansty. I am actually chuckling and laughing at just how pent up and angry you folks get.
You are of the opinion that I trash beacuse I simply called your bullshit and countered it.
It didn't take long for you to suddenly start with direct insults... turns out your shit does stink after all.
fuck your piece of shit car, fuck all your opinions, and if your really a man, i fuckin live in ur city bitch, so why dont u come talk shit to my face instead of talkin shit on a fuckin forum like some faggot.
There you go - thats what you have felt all along - if it's not from the fanboy list, it must be shit and the people who have them must be shit too. :)
Looks like you were as predictable as ever.
So now you want to come beat me up to prove you point. Go ahead. If it makes you feel better to want to beat kick mame and other wise attack people to prove you are superior - go ahead.
The truth is simple - you are of the opinion that "inferior" (in your opinion) shit is just that - and in no way could ever be factually equal or better - since it doesn't fit in with your opinion of "good".
Again - thats your fixation on material luxury and exclusiveness.
everyone on this forum has been calm and patient with u, and all you do is critisize and insult, and why... because you drive a piece of shit Z06 and think you know your shit.
Be patient? Who needs to be patient. Just because I present facts and don't subscribe to the "expensive" is better and fuck the cheap and tacky, the people that do (subscribe to the "expensive" is best idea) are showing patience by listening to opposing opinion based on fact?
How arrogant and superior of you and all you 'friends" are to assume that your opinion is so "perfect" that listening to anyone else is displayng patience.
This is the truth.
for a 38 year old, you sure are dumb as fuck. your logical argument makes sense, good for you. but it is irrelevant to this conversation. you tried to back up your argument by citing articles in magazines, and when i showed those arguments worked against you, all u had to say was "feel shmeel" like some rtarded uneducated sack of ass.
Thats right - try bolster your status and station by arrogantly stating that even thoough the facts point one way, your opinion is the other because thats the where the "image" is.
and as for this whole "You are just lucky enough to have been borne into enough status wealth and support to have access to the right path to "that station where youthink people are better". You can kiss my ass, me and my family have worked our asses off to get where we are now. we started form nothing and made somehting of ourselves, we didnt turn out to be some fuckin american trash like yourself.
Oh - so at 20 you built your family wealth position and status. You parents/grandparents may have started form nothing, but you rode on their coat tails.
no one is argueing with you about the times of cars, or their 0-60's and such, the argument is based on porsche and ferrari making a better all-around car then the z06. and you dont have to admit that, i know you know it, and if you dont, then fuck... you really are as dumb as shit.
So now you are taking a subject measure and extrapolating that to mean that is "must be better".
Again - I am telling you it is not factually better, some people have the opinion it is better.
Period.
For years I get you fanboy types all up in arms because this is exactly what I present and people are simply to arrogant to acknowledge factually the one is better - but some folks subjectively choose to igone this and choose other wise.
More power to them - that's their opinion and they are entitled to it - but don't try make out that the facts back this subjective view - as by it's very definition it is - subjective.
Oh - and BTW I do know my shit.
*******
ANY WAY:
Back to the topic:
Read the numbers and weep because they are better than the fanboy mobile posted numbers.
********
There was no need for this diversion if these facts would simply be accepted without a huge argument that they are "wrong".
Just admit they are correct - and then add your subjective opinion is opposite.
Nothing wrong with that.
Any way - I am off to prepare for a Hurricane - I tire of this exchange... bybe bye.
Anonymous
09-21-2005, 05:52 PM
Hey RC, i was trying to be nice and mature; but i can see now, that it doesnt work with some fucking trash like yourself.
You were not being nice or mature - you are just of the opinion that F-cars and P-cars are better - and when someone says they are not, youget all ansty. I am actually chuckling and laughing at just how pent up and angry you folks get.
You are of the opinion that I trash beacuse I simply called your bullshit and countered it.
It didn't take long for you to suddenly start with direct insults... turns out your shit does stink after all.
fuck your piece of shit car, fuck all your opinions, and if your really a man, i fuckin live in ur city bitch, so why dont u come talk shit to my face instead of talkin shit on a fuckin forum like some faggot.
There you go - thats what you have felt all along - if it's not from the fanboy list, it must be shit and the people who have them must be shit too. :)
Looks like you were as predictable as ever.
So now you want to come beat me up to prove you point. Go ahead. If it makes you feel better to want to beat kick mame and other wise attack people to prove you are superior - go ahead.
The truth is simple - you are of the opinion that "inferior" (in your opinion) shit is just that - and in no way could ever be factually equal or better - since it doesn't fit in with your opinion of "good".
Again - thats your fixation on material luxury and exclusiveness.
everyone on this forum has been calm and patient with u, and all you do is critisize and insult, and why... because you drive a piece of shit Z06 and think you know your shit.
Be patient? Who needs to be patient. Just because I present facts and don't subscribe to the "expensive" is better and fuck the cheap and tacky, the people that do (subscribe to the "expensive" is best idea) are showing patience by listening to opposing opinion based on fact?
How arrogant and superior of you and all you 'friends" are to assume that your opinion is so "perfect" that listening to anyone else is displayng patience.
This is the truth.
for a 38 year old, you sure are dumb as fuck. your logical argument makes sense, good for you. but it is irrelevant to this conversation. you tried to back up your argument by citing articles in magazines, and when i showed those arguments worked against you, all u had to say was "feel shmeel" like some rtarded uneducated sack of ass.
Thats right - try bolster your status and station by arrogantly stating that even thoough the facts point one way, your opinion is the other because thats the where the "image" is.
and as for this whole "You are just lucky enough to have been borne into enough status wealth and support to have access to the right path to "that station where youthink people are better". You can kiss my ass, me and my family have worked our asses off to get where we are now. we started form nothing and made somehting of ourselves, we didnt turn out to be some fuckin american trash like yourself.
Oh - so at 20 you built your family wealth position and status. You parents/grandparents may have started form nothing, but you rode on their coat tails.
no one is argueing with you about the times of cars, or their 0-60's and such, the argument is based on porsche and ferrari making a better all-around car then the z06. and you dont have to admit that, i know you know it, and if you dont, then fuck... you really are as dumb as shit.
So now you are taking a subject measure and extrapolating that to mean that is "must be better".
Again - I am telling you it is not factually better, some people have the opinion it is better.
Period.
For years I get you fanboy types all up in arms because this is exactly what I present and people are simply to arrogant to acknowledge factually the one is better - but some folks subjectively choose to igone this and choose other wise.
More power to them - that's their opinion and they are entitled to it - but don't try make out that the facts back this subjective view - as by it's very definition it is - subjective.
Oh - and BTW I do know my shit.
*******
ANY WAY:
Back to the topic:
Read the numbers and weep because they are better than the fanboy mobile posted numbers.
********
There was no need for this diversion if these facts would simply be accepted without a huge argument that they are "wrong".
Just admit they are correct - and then add your subjective opinion is opposite.
Nothing wrong with that.
Any way - I am off to prepare for a Hurricane - I tire of this exchange... bybe bye.
LOL always the mindless resort to threats, people on the internet are so easy to wind up to, not that you'd ever do that :P
Hope you and everyone else there stays safe through the hurricaine
Hell RC Im all for the no show all go...Im not buying the most bling for my buck we are the same there, but I dont feel the need to pull out my car all the time even if it can hang with some of the P and F cars....
I enjoy my car for what it is...(now its only work, but still)....
I love my car and what it is capable of, but as a whole package alot of F and P cars are a better one
Subjectively there is no doubt, the "whole pacakge" is impressive - if you are into impressing people .
If you pull up in an Enzo girsl will get wet, boys will shoot their load... and over all your "image" will be as powerful as ever...
But unless you ARE that person and and you DO have an Enzo to arrive in - it's all just subjective dreaming ;)
No one says dreams aren't cool, but just as much some people think they are tirde over the Z... imagine ho wtired some of us non-fanboys are tired of hearing about "the overall package" from people who don't actually have "the over all package" under their backsides.. :)
nthfinity
09-21-2005, 09:14 PM
nthfinity
next, the chassis, and suspension are simply beyond the development of european competition, all without the high d/f aero development.
are you fucking serious....!
Yes he is.
Funny how all the people who claim that Porsche-this, and Ferrari-that are not actually owners of the cars.
When a GT3 owner steps up and says "My car is superior to another because I have experienced it as such" I acknowledge that they know because they have experience on which base their opinions.
Any one else is a fan boy.
Period.
BTW, same goes for Lambo or ferrari or Viper etc.
People who DRIVE those cars have a basis to challange - fanboys don't.
They should merely state "their opinion".
How about making a fact based comback?
yes, i am serious; since i had posted it. :roll:
albiet, i would rather have a Porsche 911 GT3, Turbo, GT2, and CGT then the new Z :wink: (particularly in 997 form as they are released... )
im a huge fan of cars made from BMW, Audi, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Koenigsegg, pagani zonda f, Bugatti (as an excersize, and style) Aston Martin, a few Jags, etc. but clearly, the Z is far from a pretender in the group, as the Ford GT is superior in many qualities to our beloved pasta rockets, and is close in all respects.
i will argue my opion has the new Z looking very good, and over the years they have added cirtain european flairs to the car, some good, others suck.
but in pure regards to this automobile's performance; it simply cannot be argued against. and people who argue agaisnt it simply have absolutely no basis for that besides a strawman argument.
graywolf624
09-21-2005, 09:37 PM
well maybe i used the wrong word, but the zo6 is a ENHANCED model of the standard vette and since when does someone has to be a tuner to modify anything. modify is a general term meaning that something was changed, any time you buy a car and you say "i want this and that option" the car gets modified.
Say what? So if I add any option the cars modified? I guess there are no non modified cars in existance, cause I can't think of a single car thats primarily bought with the base spec.. Even ferraris.
yes Ferrari of course wants to do better then their competitors, but chevy isnt one of them.
That depends on if Chevy makes a car thats comparable to theres and will thus take away sales. They have. It might not be a huge cannibalization but there will be people who buy a zo6 instead of a f430 and pocket the extra(or modify or whatever)
who is this coming from, you??
Of course, I have been a tifosi since I was old enough to know what a car is. Probably directly related to watching magnum pi as a youngin..
graywolf624
09-21-2005, 10:11 PM
adding a option to a car, and chaning what it would generally come with. yes that modifing the car.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=modify
1. To change in form or character; alter.
Except the z06 model of the corvette generally comes with the engine transmission ect. And it isnt an option on the corvette. ITs a seperate model technically unlike the z51 option. Yet again, no cars are not modified under your definition.. In which case we are comparing modified to modified cause a f430 isnt going to be base spec either.
umm, i find it very hard to believe that anyone who would go to a Ferrari dealer and then opt out to buy a vette and pocket the money. sorry, it might just be me but i dont believe that for one sec. you can state and claim all you want about that.
I know someone who has done just that personally.
graywolf624
09-21-2005, 10:56 PM
didnt have anything to say about one of my other comments. just curious as to what you would come up this time
Huh?
I said they are competitors on a specific car based on whether people cross shop them and I know someone who has in the past.
though a 430 is base spec,
Ok youve managed to confuse me.. Whats base spec.. Any option as you describe above? A certain set of options? The car without options?
Perhaps you should say the 430 stradale will be more the sporty version while the regular 430 is more about luxury?
nchs09
09-24-2005, 12:59 AM
merry fucking chirstmas, its still a corvette.
Great here we go....cue RC45's rebuttal.....
What rebuttal?
"it's still a corvette" is a typical fanboy, benchracer, wannabe, camry driving losers answer ;) BTW - Which Ferrari does he drive? :P :lol:
Facts are facts.
62lbs/hp - the number is just another in a long stream of numbers that validate how the C6 Z06 is just continuing what the C5 Z06 started 5 years ago.
The fact that eye-ball squashing performance was now available for "ordinary folks" pisses all the wanna-be posers off no end.
:)
Must suck to be a supporter of something "just for the image" :P
Those numbers again:
sub 3.6ish-s 0-60 - 11.6ish-s 1/4 mile @ 125mph+, 7m42s Northloop, 200mph top speed - and all this for $65,000USD ;)i must admint the corvette is a fantstic car. but those looks inside the car makes it such a shit car.
the power the looks outside dont get me wrong. i have no problem with that :p
btw dont get offended :x
nthfinity
09-24-2005, 01:41 AM
The difference when driving a car like the Enzo, the CGT, the Zonda the SLR and those kind of cars compared to driving a Z like you do are that you wouldnt feel the need to try and "prove" how fast they are all the time to boost your own ego....you would know it with yourself that very few road legal cars can hold a candle to your car...and at the end of the day thats what its all about if you want to admit it or not.....
i'd have to disagree. Vette (Z06) owners never have anything to prove to each other, and a vast portion of the automotive community already knows its one of the best road legal cars one can purchass in terms of performance; and there is no ego boost... so in that the new Z is sooo good, and the very few cars in the world can hold a candle to it... then its no different for a vette then these other hypercars... and i have to disagree with that
a hypercar is something else altogether. and the vette was never meant to take away anything from them. never; nor can it.
the italian sports car, and european sports cars, of them, we really can only compare the newest released cars, such as the Gallardo, F430, Ford GT, and Z06 (am i missing any?) cirtainly, porsche will be releasing the new Turbo and GT3 over the next year, which to me really is the benchmark to go by... Audi never had anything to compare against it; the M3 really never was a direct competitor; but it will still be facinating.
does any of this mean that the z is a better car? well, it gets the job done better anyway in a more visceral way invovling the driver more then an E-dif can... but it doesnt try do do everything that the F430, and Gallardo shoot for; and in no way is anywhere near the unique-like experience of owning something truly exotic.
graywolf624
09-24-2005, 11:14 AM
so lets say someone was looking at the vette and had intentions on buying it, but decided to pick up a 2nd hand Ferrari. and yes he just happens to be qualified by Ferrari's standards.
does this mean that now that are competitors cause they were crossed shopped.
Actually it means that particular ferrari used is a competitor.
That wouldnt be a ferrari thing though, that would be ferrari dealers competing with new chevy dealers.
I beg to differ on the Z06 owners as our very own seem to feel the need to to bring it up in every discussion known to mankind, comparing it to cars far beyond what the Z06 can dance with or should be compared to......
Do remember Rc isnt the typical vette owner... :lol: :P
Not to mention Ive seen many a ferrari owner in a mid life crisis thinking they have something to prove as well. Not all owners are alike remember.
its just like any car man, but it just happens that we are talking about a 430. well the 430 comes standard from factory with a 6 speed manual, where as the 7 speed paddle is a option. and me personally i wouldnt get that option.
2 problems..
The zo6 is a seperate model, it is not an option code. It has its own base and options.
And second, so 7 speed is one you consider.
What about the carbon ceramic brakes?
Paint color based on sample?
Racing Seats?
leather luggage set?
navigation system?
electric seats?
runflats?
hi-fi?
options list:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/ferrari/f430/100615755/options.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.pricebox..1.Ferr ari*&action=1&x=73&y=19
Can you name a single car on the road that is bought with no options? Where do you draw the line, does ferrari now make 50 versisions of the f430 based on its option list?
Sir_GT
09-24-2005, 11:22 AM
It's nice that Vette owners are proud of their cars, but if anything, it's no different or any more special than owning an Impreza or an Evo. Both of those cars offer supercar performance (especially the new UK-tweaked Spec-C Impreza) at mice's prices, combined with practicality as an added bonus.
It's the same as the vette, except that the vette is less practical, but sexier.
Comparing a Vette to a Ferrari is like comparing a Scooby to an AMG or an M-car.
You would like to think of yourself as of equal standing to owners of the latter cars, because (factual or not) you believe that your car can better theirs in performance, but in truth, you simply couldn't afford the more desirable car.
"Penis envy", I think that's what Freud called it. :roll:
HeilSvenska
09-24-2005, 03:34 PM
It's nice that Vette owners are proud of their cars, but if anything, it's no different or any more special than owning an Impreza or an Evo. Both of those cars offer supercar performance (especially the new UK-tweaked Spec-C Impreza) at mice's prices, combined with practicality as an added bonus.
It's the same as the vette, except that the vette is less practical, but sexier.
Comparing a Vette to a Ferrari is like comparing a Scooby to an AMG or an M-car.
How can you compare the Corvette to a Subaru or a Mitsubishi? A Corvette is a lot more special than a WRX. Besides Corvettes are more similar to Ferraris then they are to Subarus. Corvettes were designed from the start to be sports cars, not just homologation pieces of rally cars which were already based on fourdoor sedans/saloons. I'm not saying that Ferraris and Corvettes are equals, but i have to say that they run a nearly parellel course. And in some fields, Corvettes sometimes outshine Ferraris & Porsches in numerical figures.
And you don't compare Scooby itself to the AMG/M cars, you compare the Subaru Tecnica International with AMG/M cars. besides you can really do so when/if AMG makes A-Klasse and B-Klasse AMG models. and M with M1 or something
nchs09
09-24-2005, 04:01 PM
this is such a stupid argument. u guys bash one car and praise the other nd the other person does the same. grow up ffs
taygunho
09-24-2005, 04:22 PM
vette is a really good sports car
looks good and pretty fast has a wonderful sound and also cheap
but i prefer 911. IMO 911 is suitable for daily drive. one of c5 owner sad that its hard to parking and you have to visit gas station very often. and in turkey it is too hard to find its part. also you have to pay much more tax than 911 because of engine displacement.
if i want to buy a sports car i prefer european made sports car.
graywolf624
09-24-2005, 06:01 PM
one of c5 owner sad that its hard to parking and you have to visit gas station very often. and in turkey it is too hard to find its part. also you have to pay much more tax than 911 because of engine displacement.
Uhh.. the corvette gets better mph and is the same dimensions as the 911.
As for engine displacment, kinda retarded youd pay tax based on something that has nothing to do with pollution or gas usage.. oh well.. Glad I dont live there.
graywolf624
09-24-2005, 10:15 PM
how does a Ferrari being used all of a sudden make it a competitor to a vette?? used or new, the Ferrari is still a EXOTIC car and the vette new or used is still a joe-schmo car.
The definition of a competitor is any cars that compete for your money that is a similar product. Used versus new if your looking for a performance car they are competition.
As for exotic, frankly that word lost its meaning a long time ago... Theres really no such thing.
i would be willing to bet that some if not alot of the hybrid cars are probably bought with no options, it all depends on the person buying them. not everyone is going to be like you that needs every little gadget to say they have it.
Have you never bought a new car? I don't think Ive ever seen a base car on a dealer lot. They want you to buy cars with options. Has nothing to do with me wanting every little gadgets, and more to the fact that youll almost never see a car with no options. That includes hybrid cars.. Go to your local dealer and ask to see a car with no options.. They might offer to strip one or order one, but I can almost guarentee they wont have one. Youd be suprised the options on the hybrids by the way, considering most of the people who buy them are the same yuppies you see in star bucks. They cant live without their useless amenities.
and Ferrari will do what ever they think is needed. when there is a huge waiting list, like there was for the 430 i think its safe to say that Ferrari doesnt need to worry about what to make and when those orders are placed the people at the same time add what ever they want. so Ferrari doesnt need to make 50 versions for every option.
Hey it was your arguement that the car wasnt base if it had options not mine.. Ferrari has 50 standard options available. That means under your definition ferrari has 50 versions. Now would you like to tweak your definition of modified to put some sort of limit on the significance of options? And while your at it you need to ignore that the zo6 is (repeated one more time for the hard of hearing) a seperate model, not an option code.
By the way, neither does gm have to worry about sales of vettes. Hell they dont even need to worry about sales of the solstice. They are both backordered... So your point is what?
what does someone who is having a midlife crisis have anything to do here?? having problems within thier life, where they feel the need to do something to make them selves feel better really shouldnt be brought into the mix of things in this discussion.
I believe the discussion was whether corvette owners have something to prove.. Thats based on one corvette owner we have here.. Im showing you that doesnt necessarily have anything to do with the car, given I just gave you an example of ferrari owners that do the same thing.
I beg to differ on the Z06 owners as our very own seem to feel the need to to bring it up in every discussion known to mankind, comparing it to cars far beyond what the Z06 can dance with or should be compared to......
The vette are a great car I have never said anything else and meant it, but its a great car for what it is and thats the thing.... for what it is!!!!.....its a cheap, low quallity fast american eco box... nothing more....
That doesnt mean it could or should be comapred to a exotic cuz they are far more than the vette have ever been and probably ever will be......
but hey its opinions and nothing more....I dont think the vette should be compared to a F car or a P car anymore than a BMW, Audi or Merc they are just a different car and doesnt aim for the F-P car segment......maybe Audi with their new LeMans thingy, but we just have to see what it can do before we know...as of now they dont have anything that should be compared......and neither are the vette a contender......
Who honestly gives a flying fuck?
I don't.
But the only time you or anyone else "gives the Vette credit" is when the obvious and true specs are rammed down your throat.
It's not about comparing - it's about actually daily enjoying a car that can and does run and gun with exotics that 99% of the population only dream about.
It's about spreading the word that while we all "dream about the exotics" (even I do.. :P) you don't have to DREAM about daily driving an affordable 0-60 in 4s, 12s 1/4 mile, 60-0 in 105ft, 7m56s Nurburgring lapping Super Sports Car.
That's what it is about.
But the truth seems to be that fanboys are so blind that instead of admitting and then enjoying the existence of an affordable Super Sports Car - they hate on it because it is affordable. :P
The C6 Z06 is exactly what the C5 Z05 was/is - just much more.
That is why when people bring up the "exotics are the only cars worthy of recognition for being fast" fucking bullshit - I bring up the fact that ALL the exotics have going for them is price and image - they do not have exclusive performance any more.
I just evacuated Houston with 2 million other people, and not only used less gas than most auto 4 cylinders in the traffic - I had a fucking ball doing it.
:)
:fist:
Ho hum... :P ;)
Originally posted by LG Motorsports
The car has about 55 miles on it. I varied the power during the drive over here to help with a small break in. I am sure they will loosen up but the hp will probably not go up much.
Torque MGMT is horrible. We will not be able to tune these cars for a while until the software is sent to us. It is not available at the moment.
Thanks
Lou Gigliotti LGM
(Results below)
http://lgmotorsports.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/on%20the%20dyno%2C%20front.JPG
http://lgmotorsports.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/Runs1%20and%202%20stock%202006%20Z06.jpg
RESULTS: 443. rwhp 413. rwtq
graywolf624
09-28-2005, 09:26 PM
Not bad.. About standard driveline losses.
Extremely smooth tourque curve and nice hp in the upper rpms..
Are you trying to sell me one rc.. lol
I am going to have a hard time keeping my C5 Z06 for my daughter as I promised her, and patiently wait to buy a C6 Z06 later on.
The temptation to trade it in on a used C6 Z next year is rather strong :) hehe
The good news is the new revavled C6 Z06 shocks are a direct bolt-on for the C5 Z... and folks are verifying the brakes as well.
The astonishing part is that the C6 Z06 shocks are only $199.99 for a set of 4.
Talk about a cheap upgrade :P
nthfinity
09-28-2005, 10:13 PM
what i find amazing is how much i appreciate the new Z even more then the C5 Z :o really, the only part of the car im still reserved stylistically is the front grill; beans really.
that 55 mile dyno run is wonderful, very very very smooth considering how few miles have been broken into it... are we still assuming 17% power loss from the crank to the wheels?? :shock: 530 SAE hp? :twisted:
gray, i think just about everyone would love to have the new Z on this site; even if some of them deny it :lol:
sometimes its nice every so often to have a car that can virtually sell itself :)
Dedum dee dum.. lala la..
Just for fun, I pulled the air filter out and did a cold pull. What a car.
LG
http://lgmotorsports.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/487rwhp%20C6%20%20Z06.JPG
So the Horsepower race begins.. there will probably be more N/A 600hp street driven C6 Z06's on the prwol than total Enzo's Murcis and CGT's produced.. :twisted:
This is not a good time to try impress your girlfriend/wife/SO with your new Porsche, Ferrari or Lambo... especially not with a C6 Z06 around... ;)
Hi guys,
All this information is with our LG pro Long Tube system WITH cats.
This Z06 is owned by REDLINE OIL president, Tim Kerrigan. He had the car sent directly to us at LG Motorsports. We appreciate his confidence in us.
I will start with some facts. We installed the headers today with only one minor change to our 3" mid pipes. The C6 necks down to 2.5" but the Z06 has 3" mufflers. This only required a small change in our system to eliminate the 2.5" neck down and continue our 3" pipes to attach to the stock 3" mufflers.
ok Results. First I have to clarify some knowledge that I gained in the last 24 hours. Without being able to tune the PCM, Temperature makes a big difference. I am sure that Temperature also lowered our Base line numbers also. So the 443rwhp would have been higher had we cooled the car down more before we did 2 runs back to back.
Our "After" header install numbers were not up to where we thought they should be so we let the car cool down for about 30 minutes then we did 4 pulls in a row with only 2 minutes seperating each pull.
There is no way that I was going to just pick the best After pull and call it good.
Here is all the information for you to digest. the temp on the 3rd or 4th after pull was about equal to the baseline pull, so use this information wisely.
Also note that once we can get into the computer we will be able to go in and "affect" the changes in timing and other parameters that are pulling the power out.
The air fuel went from a 12.2 on the best run to an 11.7 on the worst run (in the 4 run graph)
The first graph is the base line, with a warm engine) against the cool engine pull with a 30 minute cool down.
The second graph is 4 pulls in a row, 2 minutes apart showing heat build up and the effects of the heat on the power.
Base line/After header install with cool engine
http://lgmotorsports.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/after%20header%20install.JPG
4 pulls in a row below
http://lgmotorsports.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/After%20Header%20Install%2C%20back%20to%20back%20r uns.JPG
You can see that the computer pulls about 16 rwhp out and 13rwtq
by doing 4 pulls back to back within 6 minutes total from starting the first pull.
Tuning will solve this easily.
Sir_GT
09-29-2005, 10:05 PM
The astonishing part is that the C6 Z06 shocks are only $199.99 for a set of 4.
Talk about a cheap upgrade :P
Well, they're not exactly aluminum 5-arm multi links to begin with, are they? :)
The astonishing part is that the C6 Z06 shocks are only $199.99 for a set of 4.
Talk about a cheap upgrade :P
Well, they're not exactly aluminum 5-arm multi links to begin with, are they? :)
A couple things... we are only talking about the shocks... and the suspension is actually an independent SLA, with aluminium upper and lower control arms and steering knuckels.
:)
Any which way you slice it, this car was the best performance value in 2000 as a 2001 model, and is again the same thing in 2005 as a 2006 model.
:)
500hp+ in stock form, 560hp+ with an exhaust - 600hp+ with some mild engine mods.
Read 'em and weep.... ;)
Sir_GT
09-29-2005, 10:19 PM
The astonishing part is that the C6 Z06 shocks are only $199.99 for a set of 4.
Talk about a cheap upgrade :P
Well, they're not exactly aluminum 5-arm multi links to begin with, are they? :)
A couple things... we are only talking about the shocks... and the suspension is actually an independent SLA, with aluminium upper and lower control arms and steering knuckels.
:)
Any which way you slice it, this car was the best performance value in 2000 as a 2001 model, and is again the same thing in 2005 as a 2006 model.
:)
500hp+ in stock form, 560hp+ with an exhaust - 600hp+ with some mild engine mods.
Read 'em and weep.... ;)
Lol. Touchy. :)
It's a good car, I already agreed with you. Relax. :)
The only reason it's not flying over here is the price. £55k for the standard one, not the Z06. (I think the Z06 is somewhere around 65 or 70k) Which basically moots the whole value for money argument... which is why people here will still buy Porsche's.
In the US though... it's a different story. :)
e46drew
09-29-2005, 10:23 PM
what i find amazing is how much i appreciate the new Z even more then the C5 Z :o really, the only part of the car im still reserved stylistically is the front grill; beans really.
that 55 mile dyno run is wonderful, very very very smooth considering how few miles have been broken into it... are we still assuming 17% power loss from the crank to the wheels?? :shock: 530 SAE hp? :twisted:
gray, i think just about everyone would love to have the new Z on this site; even if some of them deny it :lol:
sometimes its nice every so often to have a car that can virtually sell itself :)
nope :agrue: I'll have to get a Porsche 911 gt3, or a 360. with its poor
comstruction, there is a large cross beam that hits my head, I cant sit up.
I'm only a little over 6 feet tall, but thud thud there it knocking my head,
leaving a bruse :bad-words: . so I'll get somthing that had some thought
put into the inside of the car, not just the motor...
^^^ What are you talking about? Cross beam?
Lol. Touchy. :)
All in good fun ;)
nthfinity
09-29-2005, 10:36 PM
what i find amazing is how much i appreciate the new Z even more then the C5 Z :o really, the only part of the car im still reserved stylistically is the front grill; beans really.
that 55 mile dyno run is wonderful, very very very smooth considering how few miles have been broken into it... are we still assuming 17% power loss from the crank to the wheels?? :shock: 530 SAE hp? :twisted:
gray, i think just about everyone would love to have the new Z on this site; even if some of them deny it :lol:
sometimes its nice every so often to have a car that can virtually sell itself :)
nope :agrue: I'll have to get a Porsche 911 gt3, or a 360. with its poor
comstruction, there is a large cross beam that hits my head, I cant sit up.
I'm only a little over 6 feet tall, but thud thud there it knocking my head,
leaving a bruse :bad-words: . so I'll get somthing that had some thought
put into the inside of the car, not just the motor...
well, im still short enough to fit in the vette, and those 2" do make a difference
i'd be with you 2001 z vs. 996 GT3... but we still dont have a 997 for me to choose over the 2006 Z
RC, he's refering to the beam behind the magnisium roof panel
At 6'1/2" I have no trouble fitting in the C5 or C6. The seat does have some vertical travel to be adjusted to make room.
e46drew
09-29-2005, 10:52 PM
:prr: hay bro 8) "thud thud " :mrgreen: its a cool car, but not cool enough for the
novilty I want.
my practical car, M5
my fun car, 360 chalenge
:wink:
not yet but soon to be
If you say so :)
I'd much rather have a fun practical car :P now - not later.
e46drew
09-29-2005, 11:17 PM
good things come to thoes who........ :wink:
of course the vette owners have something to prove, well they don't have something to prove really but they feel the need to since they are self conscious about their purchase of the joe-schmo vette since they couldn't afford the Ferrari, so they need to constantly tell them selves that what they bought is good enough. so thats why RC has to constantly bring up anything and everything when its not even comparable. hes self conscious about the vette and simply trys to make him self feel better about his purchase which is understandable but very very sad.
Make myself feel better? That's YOUR justifiaction for hating on the car. I am very pleased with the car, and enjoy it on a daily basis. You and your kind make a point of trying to downplay and bash the car - and all I do is point out you are wrong. Plain and simple.
You are such a nob, I mean snob - that instead of actually enjoying a super fast car on a daily basis, you would rather jack off to pictures of Enzos and bench race and TALK like you know high-performance cars - but really know jack shit about daily driving a 4s car. :)
If you were a real gear head, you would at least appreciate a fast car and capable car - even if it wasn't full of snob-appeal.
I beg to differ on the Z06 owners as our very own seem to feel the need to to bring it up in every discussion known to mankind, comparing it to cars far beyond what the Z06 can dance with or should be compared to......
The vette are a great car I have never said anything else and meant it, but its a great car for what it is and thats the thing.... for what it is!!!!.....its a cheap, low quallity fast american eco box... nothing more....
That doesnt mean it could or should be comapred to a exotic cuz they are far more than the vette have ever been and probably ever will be......
but hey its opinions and nothing more....I dont think the vette should be compared to a F car or a P car anymore than a BMW, Audi or Merc they are just a different car and doesnt aim for the F-P car segment......maybe Audi with their new LeMans thingy, but we just have to see what it can do before we know...as of now they dont have anything that should be compared......and neither are the vette a contender......
Who honestly gives a flying fuck?
I don't. :fist:
for someone who doesnt give a fuck, you sure have a way of showing it by bringing it up all the time. seems to me like you give more then a fuck about it, and simply are self conscious about your car and have to talk about it all the time so as to feel better about it.
I don't give a fuck what you think. I already feel better - as I daily enjoy a 4s car. Daily enjoy a 7m56s Nurburgring capable car. ;)
People who like to think that only P-cars/F-cars and L-cars can be as high-performance orientated quote numbers as if they actually know something - it's simply sharing info to keep other people who are not snob-appeal driven in the know that there is an alternative.
Just because you fail to admit that not only the wealthy are entitled to awesome performance - doesn't mean others do as well. :)
gray, i think just about everyone would love to have the new Z on this site; even if some of them deny it :lol:
sorry, but you can take me off that list. sure i would take the care if i won it or someone gave it to be, but at the same time i would sell it in a hearbeat. the vette is nothing but a good bargain, but then again not all good bargains are worth it.
Z06 fans don't want or need you on the list.
So the Horsepower race begins.. there will probably be more N/A 600hp street driven C6 Z06's on the prwol than total Enzo's Murcis and CGT's produced.. :twisted:
does that mean that now you want to compare those 600HP vettes to the supercars??
Yes. Directly comparing the car to them.
Weighing in at 3100lbs, with 600hp on tap places the car squarely in this supposed exclusive performance club. Sorry to say - that once again, just because you like to bench race and get all horny about cars that few and far between can enjoy, doesn't mean that others have to si on the sidelines and not enjoy CGT, Enzo, C12S performance. ;)
Any which way you slice it, this car was the best performance value in 2000 as a 2001 model, and is again the same thing in 2005 as a 2006 model.
VALUE being the key word here, its a good deal and thats all thats good about it.
READ EM AND WEEP!!!!
Your point? You drive a Golf - while you dream of supercar performance, others enjoy it. And you could too for just a coupel more dollars. But you are one of the dillusional few who simply refuse to see the lght. :)
Oh - and just so you know the C5 Z06 is a 360CS peformance equal, the same way the C6 Z06 will be a 430CS performance equivalent. ;)
This is just how it is.
Learn to accept it. :)
nthfinity
09-30-2005, 01:18 AM
If you say so :)
I'd much rather have a fun practical car :P now - not later.
whatever my brothers decision; the wait is manditory unfortunatley... im just hoping sooner then later (nothing to do with which type of car he ends up purchasing)
also, @ 6'2" i can fit in a C5 Z, and C6, and Ford GT...although on the latter, i have to duck my head while closing the door :lol: (e46drew is 6'4" or is it 6'5"??)
@ronin:
you can type as much as you want, but you know that one ride in a C6 Z, let alone a C5 Z would convince you otherwise 8)
@RC
yeah! well, i have a 185hp two tonne SUV that i can take to 60 in under 10 (by your standard, i have a 10 second car :wink: ) that i dont have to dream about... oh, yeah, i have more tractability than you mwuahahaha
^^Yet you keep coming back for more ;)
What's this thread on now? Page 8? :)
LMAO, 1 reason and 1 reason alone is enough for me to not like the vette and ill enlighten you again. I DONT LIKE AMERICAN CARS...
...that doesnt make a difference to me as i dont like american cars and i wouldnt be happy in the vette if it was 2s car. ....
...sorry, its IMPOSSIBLE for me to drive and enjoy something that i dont like.
Well - with logic like this... there is no way you could be biased... :roll: I mean you just don't like America... we know that's no secret.
Those Portagoose supercars are awesome though.. well built, fast and impressive. :roll:
http://www.boostaholic.com/tmp/new_z06.mp4
also, @ 6'2" i can fit in a C5 Z, and C6, and Ford GT...although on the latter, i have to duck my head while closing the door :lol: (e46drew is 6'4" or is it 6'5"??)
So bigger is not always better ;)
@RC
yeah! well, i have a 185hp two tonne SUV that i can take to 60 in under 10 (by your standard, i have a 10 second car :wink: ) that i dont have to dream about... oh, yeah, i have more tractability than you mwuahahaha
Wait - it seems bigger can be better ;)
graywolf624
09-30-2005, 12:03 PM
so thats why RC has to constantly bring up anything and everything when its not even comparable. hes self conscious about the vette and simply trys to make him self feel better about his purchase which is understandable but very very sad.
Yet again this is RC.. Go read the political discussions.. He is always like this, car or not..
No offense meant RC, just pointing out that you discussing the vette doesnt say anything about vette drivers or how they view their cars.
so thats why RC has to constantly bring up anything and everything when its not even comparable. hes self conscious about the vette and simply trys to make him self feel better about his purchase which is understandable but very very sad.
Yet again this is RC.. Go read the political discussions.. He is always like this, car or not..
No offense meant RC, just pointing out that you discussing the vette doesnt say anything about vette drivers or how they view their cars.
No offense taken - if I was a Linux user and I saw people pointlessly bashing Linux all day - particularly with "I just hate it" bias, I would also offer comment about how Linux favourably compares to other offerings - especially when the other offering is presented not on it's own merit, but as "just being better than Linux because it's not as bad as Linux" :)
Many people have not even been aware of the true performance, value and ability - even if they still hate and despise it afterwards, at least they are doing so from unjustified bias.. not lack of information :P
graywolf624
10-03-2005, 08:51 PM
A friend of mine from Texas has now dynoed his zo6... With and without a new set of headers:
http://www.boostaholic.com/427z/427zdyno.gif
The headers netted 30 hp and 60 torque(outrageous)...
nthfinity
10-03-2005, 09:56 PM
:twisted:
Just haeders??? no cat-back x pipes?
graywolf624
10-03-2005, 10:07 PM
Its these headers with cat option:
They are damn expensive headers though
http://www.lgmotorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=932&osCsid=f7ee25275a95ed9fd31adad9ae48eae8
The price paid to the go fast crack pipe...
$1395.00 for LG Headers is not that expensive... before he got someone else to produce volume, his longtubes carried a $2400 price tag.
ZfrkS62
10-04-2005, 12:38 AM
I may not be as big a fan of Detroit Muscle as what i once was (as in i no longer snatch up every Chevy and Mopar magazine) but i'm always amazed at what a Chevy small block will handle. it's really not diffucult of expensive anymore to reach 1000hp.
So really 1400 bucks for 30/60 is a fucking steal. Consider the fact that even 10 years ago it was running about 3K for 20hp. It's so easy to release and create power out of an american engine you wonder why they didn't release the engine at or at least closer to it's full potential :bah:
you wonder why they didn't release the engine at or at least closer to it's full potential :bah:
Warranty, emmisions, cost and reliability... ;)
ZfrkS62
10-04-2005, 01:12 AM
why do i keep forgetting about that evil E word :? If they released the race version of the engine, reliability wouldn't be that big of an issue. You can't win 24hr races by blowing engines :wink:
^^ But you also rebuild such engines after each outings.. ;) The stock car has to be able to run for 100,000 miles before it's first coolant change.. :)
ZfrkS62
10-04-2005, 01:41 AM
But you also rebuild such engines after each outings..
right, but show me the typical corvette driver that takes his car on 24 hour sustained high rpm runs like that :wink: Granted i am well aware the the C5 and 6 R engines were purposebuilt for those events. but swap in some slightly less efficient heads and intake, and there's your road engine :wink:
nthfinity
10-04-2005, 02:40 AM
But you also rebuild such engines after each outings..
right, but show me the typical corvette driver that takes his car on 24 hour sustained high rpm runs like that :wink: Granted i am well aware the the C5 and 6 R engines were purposebuilt for those events. but swap in some slightly less efficient heads and intake, and there's your road engine :wink:
AKA ZL-1 Camaro from a few years back... and they did it in a one-off GTO Judge last year :twisted:
graywolf624
10-04-2005, 09:52 PM
As if we didnt expect it.. The viper has officially been trounced on a road course in all numbers. The gt nudges the vette at over double the price on lap time, but loses in several key categories(braking for one, grip and quarter mile as well) reflecting a situation that would be all driver and track choice.:
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/1645708g.jpg
Looks like front engine, push rods and leaf springs and normally aspirated are just as good as mid engine, 4 valves, coil overs and super charged.
:twisted:
nthfinity
10-05-2005, 02:35 AM
FUCK!!!!!!!!!! FUCK FUCK FUCK :!:
why do i always miss this shit when i only live 30 minutes from Gingerman raceway where it takes place :? :bad-words:
DAMN... it would've been great...
:arrow: i got to get an inside source at the track
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