Florida isnt doin so well either.

[gtx28]

So theres almost no fuel left in this part of the state. I filled up a few days ago and have enough fuel for a few weeks. But almost every gas station in the area is out of fuel. I found two stations that had super premium, other than that nadda. Unless there are some changes quick this could have a really bad outcome. Apparently there are almost no fuel cans either Walmart seems to have none and none of the auto parts places for 200 mi have any. I sure hope that the truck stops still have diesel other wise were going to be out of food i would guess in a few days. Who knows what will happen though. Anyone else having big issues???

[RC45]

Well - the gas is piped to you guys into distribution centres, then trucked from their to your stations.

The pipeline is not pumping - and the refineries are not refining.

Thanks the tree huggers for preventing the building of new refineries and expanding oil drilling. :)

Getyour Mad Max video out and take a refresher course on creative gasoline sourcing skillz :P

[T-Bird]

npoe were all good about 100 miles south are an assload of Refineries and reserves so I'm sure we'll be good for a while. And if it comes down to it I'll have to buy Racing fuel which ATM is only about 60 cents more than Premium at the local stations (available alot here being right on a huge Chain-O-Lakes and all the boats use it since they race unlimited class here every weekend and there are a few Airfields around here that I have bought it from before. And if that doesn't work I'll drive one of my Dad's Diesel trucks from work and make my own Bio-Diesel.

[nchs09]

look @ atlanta and then cry

[graywolf624]

It comes down to morons hording gas by buying tanks to fill them up.

[TransAm]

I might well fill the car up with gas today (1/3 of a tank in it) and my 2 gal container in the garage which is normally for the mower.

I am on vacation all next week but living out of town there is no way I could get to work if the pumps run dry here. I don't have a bicycle and its 20 miles if I did.

Time for a bit of teleworking on a grand scale, for those who can, methinks.

[gtx28]

Is the price of fuel really an issue when you cant get any? People are starting to get histerical around here. I find most of it humorous.

[graywolf624]

Except they arent completely out of gas. They are low because people are freaking out and buying extreme amounts in a period where supply is already tight.

[gtx28]

Thats true all the pumps around here are empty of regular unleaded, were still out. Many stations say they have no fuel at all, some stations are selling premium only. There are rumors that many stations have plenty of fuel but are only selling premium and not selling the regular fuel they have. I only posted this to see what everyone else is facing in this nation and around the world. For instance TT or Jabba are you seeing fuel prices rise? or is it only related to this nation?? I realize your fuel is heavily taxed but have the fuel prices spike as of late??

[Anonymous]

Thats true all the pumps around here are empty of regular unleaded, were still out. Many stations say they have no fuel at all, some stations are selling premium only. There are rumors that many stations have plenty of fuel but are only selling premium and not selling the regular fuel they have. I only posted this to see what everyone else is facing in this nation and around the world. For instance TT or Jabba are you seeing fuel prices rise? or is it only related to this nation?? I realize your fuel is heavily taxed but have the fuel prices spike as of late??

um in the uk our price is now edging towards £1 per litre, already is in some places the only reason it hasn't is that shell, BP etc have takne some of the fuel price rise out of thier margins, thats clearly unsustainable. Also in our paper there was a story how alot of pumps will have to be changed as the are incapable of showing over 99.9p :lol: anyway i'd say on average around me its gone up maybe 4p. My bet is if the governement doesn't do anything we'll have fuel protests again soon, though its not near an election so the government probably won't give a shit :roll:

[graywolf624]

Well we should be good here this time. Thankfully no one is going to put price caps on gasoline causing massive shortages this time.

[RC45]

^^^ Well apart from people being able to buy more gas by simply driving more to burn up what they have - price caps will not cause a shortage if a real shortage doesn't exist.

Suppliers may create a false shortage by with holding supplies - but that would be counter productive in these crisis times.

Consumers do not have the ability to stockpile gas and store it so, apart from a few extra gallons people may buy with that extra gas can they have at home people won't suddenly buy 2000 gallons each ;) People could not "panic buy" more than their cars, weedwacker and lawnmoer could hold :)

This fact is born out by the many countries that have price control. Prices may not be the lowest, but it does not create instant shortages.

There are many instances where economic theory doesn't necessarily translate to economic text book practice. ;)

[ZfrkS62]

Well we should be good here this time. Thankfully no one is going to put price caps on gasoline causing massive shortages this time.

Speak for yourself. Louisiana does have an emergency cap.

[graywolf624]

Fools.. Caps ultimately cause the shortages (the price being high is what discourages people from driving, if you keep the price artifically low the demand stays the same leading to shortages. It happened to very illeffect in American in the 70s). I know you prolly werent here then, but Carter used price controls, which led to gas rationing. Why.. Cause ultimately gas is not an inelastic good. That means that ultimately people will drive less if the price of gas rises. If the price is artificially low they will continue to take driving vacations and the like. The optimal level is always that which the market in a competitive environment will bear. Economic textbooks teach the basics, but ultimately you can apply them with complex analysis. Having done that for oil, I certainly can verify. Price float is exactly what avoids a shortage. Other examples, every country thats held strict to non float of currency has ultimately collapsed(argentina). The price caps you see on the medical industry in socialized countries has driven out the doctors. The fact is that price controls demand, and any time you artificially or even naturally cut price you don't allow demand to adjust to the given supply.

Consumers do not have the ability to stockpile gas and store it so
bs.. They can, and this past week they did. They can't on a year stand point, but they can from a stand point of a months supply by buying gas containers. If everyone buys a months supply of gas its the same effect as you get in the north east when everyone buys supplies before a snow storm.

I feel sorry for you, I didn't realize any place in America was still that stupid. Luckily most of this country lets the gas free ride, while just going after price gaugers.

[RC45]

The above honestly does not ring true for temporary price caps for emergency reasons.

And this has in fcat been proven before during times of crisis... bread, gas, electricity - it does not matter.

If you have a particular period when there is a need for a basic escesity - such as bread, gas, heating electricity - there is inherently nothing wrong with preventing a price rise in the short term.

Nobody is suggesting a longterm economic policy - there is no point in preventing people form either surviving, eating or getting to work simply to "keep the market forces in balance".

Benevolance is in fact an important part of the free market system.

Ignoring this fact will ultimately lead to the very downfall of the system it is supposed to prop up.

Why? Because it doesn't matter what the theories indicate - if the size and power of the impoverished group gets big enough, they will no longer be "kept in line" by the rule of law and the ensuing revolution will be the end of the haves ;)

[graywolf624]

The above honestly does not ring true for temporary price caps for emergency reasons.

And this has in fcat been proven before during times of crisis... bread, gas, electricity - it does not matter.
Actually it does ring true. Even in the short run your just impeeding the inevitable. The school of thought of economics Im from teaches that fooling with the short run only makes the long run worse. When you try to adjust flows to control prices or even the flow of capital in the economy, you impede the economic flow to where its natural state is. Doing so ultimately creates a worse state.

Its occurred over and over again in history. I suggest reading Freemans study of economics over the last 100 years.

For these very reasons I've proposed workfare. You need to create a system where we still follow the free market and yet care for people socially, but playing with prices ultimately only leads to a worse recession. The economy has to go to that point before it can go back down. Holding it at any given point will make it take that much longer to recover. Prolonging the misery.

The optimal position of the economy is best for everyone, rich and poor alike. The innovation of the haves as you call it, the pursuit of alternatives(the very thing pushed by those higher prices) ultimately trickles down to the have nots in the form of lower costs. (notices the decline of things like food as a percentage of a persons income over time.) The increase in whats considered a necessity as time passes. Unfortunately, human nature means people lose sight of the long run for the short run fix.

If you price cap, you discourage search for alternatives and you keep demand unrealistically high. Not to mention, define short term. There are some short term stops that are good. For example the stock market when noticing speculative buying and rapid change will stop trading for a day or 2 till speculation ends. That being said, price caps are not one of them.

[ViperASR]

$3.30 a gallon for the regular stuff this morning. Because of my car being an older porshce, i have to put either the medium grade or highest grade stuff in my car, 3.50, for a GALLON of freakin gas! :fist:

[RC45]

The above honestly does not ring true for temporary price caps for emergency reasons.

And this has in fcat been proven before during times of crisis... bread, gas, electricity - it does not matter.
Actually it does ring true. Even in the short run your just impeeding the inevitable. The school of thought of economics Im from teaches that fooling with the short run only makes the long run worse. When you try to adjust flows to control prices or even the flow of capital in the economy, you impede the economic flow to where its natural state is. Doing so ultimately creates a worse state.

Its occurred over and over again in history. I suggest reading Freemans study of economics over the last 100 years.

For these very reasons I've proposed workfare. You need to create a system where we still follow the free market and yet care for people socially, but playing with prices ultimately only leads to a worse recession. The economy has to go to that point before it can go back down. Holding it at any given point will make it take that much longer to recover. Prolonging the misery.

The optimal position of the economy is best for everyone, rich and poor alike. The innovation of the haves as you call it, the pursuit of alternatives(the very thing pushed by those higher prices) ultimately trickles down to the have nots in the form of lower costs. (notices the decline of things like food as a percentage of a persons income over time.) The increase in whats considered a necessity as time passes. Unfortunately, human nature means people lose sight of the long run for the short run fix.

If you price cap, you discourage search for alternatives and you keep demand unrealistically high. Not to mention, define short term. There are some short term stops that are good. For example the stock market when noticing speculative buying and rapid change will stop trading for a day or 2 till speculation ends. That being said, price caps are not one of them.

All of the above assumes people won't die in the short term.

Pursuit of alteranatives and workfare and any other program you care to mention has no effect in 1 to 3 months.

This time frame is normally all that is needed to overcome immidiate adversity.

As an example, if winter set in, and fuel oil prices resulted in the cost of heating a home rising to $1000 a month, many thousands would die because they could not afford to heat their home - in this case capped fuel oil prices to keep home heating at $200 a month would be appropriate - as there would never be a suitable alternative found before the season arrived.

These are the types of terms and situations am refering to.

[graywolf624]

All of the above assumes people won't die in the short term.

Pursuit of alteranatives and workfare and any other program you care to mention has no effect in 1 to 3 months.
Except we do have programs in place to handle this.. Thats what your missing. The strategic reserve is one. Halting hedge fund trading is another. Going after price gaugers is yet another.

Your price cap wont solve the problem, cause what have you done. You've kept the cost of oil at 100 dollars instead of 1000 maybe, but now everyones going to freeze to death. The price went up cause theres not enough to go around. If you lower the price theres still not enough to go around. The price of a free market is structured so that it only goes up when somethings scarce. The only thing to do is let the price go up and use that to encourage alternatives like the ones above. Price caping just changes the chooser on who gets the oil from the one with the dollars to the first in line. Most everyone still freezes. However, then theres less of an incentive to research the alternative cause its not economically feasible cause the oil costs less.

Yeah thats me brembo.. One problem.. If the price of oil went up to 1000 dollars Id be one of the first to die as would most of my family. But hey, I support the millionares at my own detriment. :roll:

[graywolf624]

Well it better hold off for a few decades cause right now I live pay check to pay check..;)

Seriously though, I do subscribe to the economic school of thought that innovation is the only thing that spurs growth in quality of living and that the difference between the classes now is less important then the quality of living growth of everyone over the long run. Its the key difference between a socialist and a capitalist.

[RC45]

All of the above assumes people won't die in the short term.

Pursuit of alteranatives and workfare and any other program you care to mention has no effect in 1 to 3 months.
Except we do have programs in place to handle this.. Thats what your missing. The strategic reserve is one. Halting hedge fund trading is another. Going after price gaugers is yet another.

Your price cap wont solve the problem, cause what have you done. You've kept the cost of oil at 100 dollars instead of 1000 maybe, but now everyones going to freeze to death. The price went up cause theres not enough to go around. If you lower the price theres still not enough to go around. The price of a free market is structured so that it only goes up when somethings scarce. The only thing to do is let the price go up and use that to encourage alternatives like the ones above. Price caping just changes the chooser on who gets the oil from the one with the dollars to the first in line. Most everyone still freezes. However, then theres less of an incentive to research the alternative cause its not economically feasible cause the oil costs less.

Yeah thats me brembo.. One problem.. If the price of oil went up to 1000 dollars Id be one of the first to die as would most of my family. But hey, I support the millionares at my own detriment. :roll:

The flaw with this logic and always has been, is that you are assuming the participants in the economy are as benevolent and humanitarian as you are (and subscribe to the same rules of law you would hope would regulate the market, transaction and participants) - you also seem to assume that while human nature will behave in the predictable primal way you hope - chasing scarce resources - that corporate entities will somehow behave benignly and not subscribe to the same primal nature that is the core behaviour of selfish man ;)

In the above you still assume that the reason for fuel oil rising to $1000 is because of supply being limited and not simply seasonal profiteering.

We have witnessed year in year out (at least for the 10 years I have been resident in the US) that the price of gas "miraculously" goes up in anticipation of the driving season every year (with dire cries of shortages coming, shortages coming - yet futures prices are dropping because the traders fear a surplus...) some would have you believe it is all based on future speculation and trading and demand almost outstripping supply - but it is not - it is simply opportunistic profiteering. How can one tell? Because during the summer driving season down here, the price goes up Thursday through Saturday - then comes down Sunday through Wednesday - Rain/Shine/Crude up/Crude down/Gas Futures up/Gas futures down/ Terrorists activity/Middle East peace/Hurricane/Tornado/Mudslide/Sale at Maceys or what ever.

This price collusion and racketeering is allowing huge amounts of money to flow to the Dutch , The British, US, Venezuelan and Saudi oil companies ;)

The price of a slice loaf of wheat bread more closely follows the traditional supply/demand curve ;) There isn't exactly 1500% profit is bread :P Gasoline wholesale distribution however follows a more primal human greed formula - in a time of plenty, collude with your market friends and set the price as high as you want and hold it there. ;)

If gasoline prices truly did follow supply and demand, prices would change AFTER shipments began selling not BEFORE ;)

Unless of course the gasoline wholesalers have alien technology that let's them see what the market supply and price paid tomorrow was, 3 days ago :P

[graywolf624]

In the above you still assume that the reason for fuel oil rising to $1000 is because of supply being limited and not simply seasonal profiteering.
Rc.. Going after price gauging was a measure I mentioned for the short run. Price caps are not a protection against price gauging, and gauging in this competitive market we have is certainly apparent. That being said, its not the speculation causing the current issues. The current issues arent related to speculation by the station owners or refineries, but rather stock traders like your or I.

some would have you believe it is all based on future speculation and trading and demand almost outstripping supply
Incorrect. For the most part it isn't the oil producers raising the price of oil. The increase in oil is easily traceable to the oil futures market.
Watch the speculation there, a market which anyone, you me whoever can by into hedges on oil futures. The movement of that group, the price of oil per barell be derived from, directly patterns our price of gas changes. The gas stations themselves make very little profit, and the refineries are, while pulling in money, certainly not consistant leaders.

If gasoline prices truly did follow supply and demand, prices would change AFTER shipments began selling not BEFORE
Yet again.. false.. The price of gas follow oil barrel hedge funds, things you or I can buy and trade. When it goes up before the shipments arrive its because the gas station pays for the next load of gas with the revenues of this one(using the penny or so they make per gallon + the rest of the sale to buy the next load if the price rises). That is the nature of speculation.

This price collusion and racketeering is allowing huge amounts of money to flow to the Dutch , The British, US, Venezuelan and Saudi oil companies
Actually its shown time and time again that oil groups have failed to collude.

It has nothing to do with faith in humanity, in fact its exactly the opposite. Its an understanding that in general we follow demand with speculation in the hedge market following cyclical only because the news media convinces people that it will go bad causing a spike in speculation there. Get the right culprit, if the news media wasnt about doom and gloom they would make it clear that the price of gas has been dropping steadily for over a week. Of course good doesnt sell.
I suggested a solution to this as well. Suspend hedge fund trading in situations of need.

The oil companies can't collude for the same reason opec can't... Not cause they dont want too, but because, as Nash proved, the only way to reliably collude is if theres something to punnish for cheating on the collusion. Even with such few big companies theres still no punnishment for cheating(same with opec), and thus no possiblity for collusion. (There very greed keeps them in check, cause they stand to gain more for cheating while the others continue)

[graywolf624]

I realize they are different years and scales.. but here is the price of oil futures in dollars per barrel compared to price of gas.. Something thats driven up by both global demand and speculation on oil futures market:

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/small/oilprice1947.gif
http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/zFacts-Gasoline-Price.gif


Kinda puts a crook in the refineries collecting profits gig after you see that the price per barrel change is so closely tied to price of gas change.

Anti collusion/anti trust laws exist for a reason, government price caps are not one of the viable trust busters.

[RC45]

If gasoline prices truly did follow supply and demand, prices would change AFTER shipments began selling not BEFORE
Yet again.. false.. The price of gas follow oil barrel hedge funds, things you or I can buy and trade. When it goes up before the shipments arrive its because the gas station pays for the next load of gas with the revenues of this one(using the penny or so they make per gallon + the rest of the sale to buy the next load if the price rises). That is the nature of speculation.


This still doesn't explain why gas that was refined weeks ago is being wholesaled for a higher price - other than the wholesaler (which just happens to be Conoco, BP, Shell, Exxon etc) can just put the price up - of product that has been previously bought and processed.

Just because speculation has raised the price of the barrel of oil in transit, is no reason to raise the price of already refined product that was piped to the distribution centers a week ago.

There is no reason why the oil companies distribution and sourcing model needs to be paid for by my dollar.

This is a captive energy market selling a necessity.

If Footlocker summarily raised the price of shoes already on the shelf because the price of leather was increased would not be tolerated - why should oil / gasoline sales be any different?

Just because a futures market exists for oil and not for shoes?

No - it is very far stretch to try justify any of the profiteering with "laws of economics".

There is a reason why energy companies are posting 5, 10 and 20 Billion dollar profits - per quarter. :)

And it is not because I am stock piling gas... ;)

[graywolf624]

This still doesn't explain why gas that was refined weeks ago is being wholesaled for a higher price - other than the wholesaler (which just happens to be Conoco, BP, Shell, Exxon etc) can just put the price up - of product that has been previously bought and processed.

Just because speculation has raised the price of the barrel of oil in transit, is no reason to raise the price of already refined product that was piped to the distribution centers a week ago.

You apparently dont get it... private guy a) owns a gas station(majority of us gas stations are not owned by the corporations).
the price of gas goes up.
private guy a) must pay for the increased price of gas with the sales of the gas he has now. Given we already showed that private guy a) only makes a few cents on the gallon over in the gas violence thread.. private guy a) is not speculating in the majority of cases.
Not to mention as I showed you, there is direct correlation between the rise in oil futures and the rise in gas prices.

Not to mention theres a speculative market on alot of the refined gasoline too called the gas futures market. See the refinerys sell on the open market. Hedge funds buy and sell these futures without ever holding them driving up the price(all oil, some gas). Meanwhile the gas stations see the price of gas going up and bid up there price to get the gas now before the price changes, in addition they have to pay for there next load out of profits for this one, or do you expect them to loan that out.

If Footlocker summarily raised the price of shoes already on the shelf because the price of leather was increased would not be tolerated -
In fact they do.. As do drug companies, food companies, and every other commodity. Hell there was a whole movie in the 80s made about the orange commodity market man. Of course footlocker can raise there prices without cost increases to market there shoe at a different market.

There is a reason why energy companies are posting 5, 10 and 20 Billion dollar profits - per quarter.
Except the gas stations that you want to put price caps on.. are not! the energy companies. They are almost entirely independently owned.

If you want to argue the refineries are price gouging and the gas stations aren't lets take a step back and ask how does price capping at the gas station stop that. Why wouldnt the refinery just sell more gas abroad and stop selling here sending thousands of gas stations out of business and making a situation of scarcity(hey theres that word again).

How about we step a step even further to the companies collecting the oil, which arent always the refineries either. We price cap at the gas station how does that effect them? Theres still 211 countries to sell too just as the refineries.. But wait theres more... they can save the gas for assured later gains.. Hey.. Youve just continued to create scarcity.. But what have you accomplished? More people are without gas, more people are without money, you've run thousands of small businesses owned by familys out of business, youve provided cheaper gas to other countries...

I already showed you arent capping the refineries, your capping the gas stations that arent owned by the same people. If you want to talk about gas companies, who are entities further along the gas chain, they arent the ones selling you the gas.. Then lets take it a step further. Total revenues for Exxon last year were 82.1 billion. They took in 7.86 billion in there most profitable quarter ever. I don't know about you, but 7 billion doesn't seem all that big when you realize there total profit per unit sold is somewhere around 9.5 cents on the dollar. Certainly doesnt explain where the price increase of a dollar went either now does it?
http://www.thestreet.com/_googlen/stocks/energy/10220429.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

Exxon mobile, the parent company of exxon..
ExxonMobil now has the most assets in the world, and generated 246.7 billion dollars in total revenue for 2003
If a company with that many assets cant make a profit on volume sales, they have serious underlying issues.
In 2004: profit: 25.33 billion
revenue: 298.03 billion.
8.4 cents on the dollar in profit.

It sounds huge, till you consider that economies of scale provide volume profits, and that if it takes 273 billion to make 298 billion it puts things in perspective. Hell an investor can make 4-5 percent on a treasury bond..

Hell even better.Exxon: 2004 numbers were 5.44 billion out of 67.6 aka
8 cents a on the dollar. Meaning beyond the sales of higher volumes, the total increase in profits for exxon through other means was 1.5 cents on the dollar. Yet price has increased a full dollar in a year. So your telling me.. that if gas costs 3 dollars a gallon, and the total gain they got on this gas from last year to this is 4.5 cents... Where did the other dollar come from?(and this is assuming that exxon didnt aquire anyone/ ignoring that they sell in other markets, which would make the boost look even less.)

In other words, the profitability of the oil industry is just about right for a growing industry, and does not under any circumstances explain the increase in gas price.

[graywolf624]

Hell one more hit off the it sure as hell ain't the refineries stand point.
Oil cost break down:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/

Observe that other then the last few weeks where refinery cost has sky rocketed do to hits on refinery by the hurricane, the cut going to refineries has remained basically constant (with typical peaks and bounds but hovering around 50-55 cents since at least 2001. The crude oil price is what continually rises.

Now granted it is a state energy link and doesnt account for differences in refinery costs based on different refinery methods, BUT Ive already given you numerous double checks.. It isn't the refineries pulling in more.

[RC45]

Profit Soars at Exxon Mobil
Surging Oil Prices Lead to Company's Best Second Quarter

By Joe Carroll
Bloomberg News
Friday, July 29, 2005; Page D02

Exxon Mobil Corp., the world's largest publicly traded oil company, said yesterday that second-quarter profit rose 32 percent, to $7.64 billion, as Asia and North America used more crude oil and gasoline.

The quarterly profit was the third-highest in the company's history. Revenue climbed 25 percent, to $88.57 billion, Exxon said. A doubling of oil prices since 2003 has put the Irving, Tex.-based company on a pace to surpass Wal-Mart Stores Inc. this year as the largest U.S. company by total revenue.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/28/AR2005072802085.html

Don't try make it sound like the primary source for revenue and income is NOT the oil that they pull out the ground/undersea for a few dollars a barrel and then sell for astonishing profit.

A couple things - many more refineries are owned by the very companies leasing our rigs, drilling the oil and ultimatly sell it to retail gasoline stations via oil company owned wholesalers than one cares to admit.

And many more gas stations are franchised/owned by these same oil companies than one would care to believe.

Take Conoco - before they could seal the deal with Phillips a few years back - BOTH oil companies had to sell many many gas stations before the FTC would alow the deal to go through.

The economic theory you promote is all well and good on paper - but in the 3 months that fuel oil would be $1000 per household per month none of the "market forces" you tout would solve the immidiate short term problem - or cause the "catastrophies" you indicate ;)

In the laizer-faire utopia libertarians yearn for - possibly - but no the real world we all call home.

And when one talks of capping retail prices at such times it doesn't matter whether the retail price is capped or the distribution price is capped or the wholesale price is capped - or if the oil refiner themsleves are forced to suck up the loss of selling the product at a fixed price for the duration.


The gap between crude oil costs and prices for refined fuels was the widest ever, as consumption rose faster than supplies. Exxon's refining and marketing profit rose 34 percent, to $2.02 billion, mostly outside the United States.

This little tid-bit is just industry self promotion - there was no more a shortage in Texas than we had 40 days this last month.

Prices rose supposedly because of extra demand - yet there were no lines waiting, not rationing, just steady increasing prices.

Tankers kept delivering and gas stations kept pumping. No stations here ran out of gas - and there was no panic buying.

In fact people probably bought a little less gas - yet each day the price went up 10 cents - for no reason other than the oil company owned distributer could ratchet the price up and rake in some bonus profit.

If anything - the prices should have started falling according to your model, because many of the stations in our area saw less traffic as people said "Fuck these prics".

Yet they kept going up.

The prices kept going up in California, Illinios and South Dakota for goodness sakes - scarecity my arse.

Opportunistic price gouging more likely.

[graywolf624]

Don't try make it sound like the primary source for revenue and income is NOT the oil that they pull out the ground/undersea for a few dollars a barrel and then sell for astonishing profit.

A couple things - many more refineries are owned by the very companies leasing our rigs, drilling the oil and ultimatly sell it to retail gasoline stations via oil company owned wholesalers than one cares to admit.

And many more gas stations are franchised/owned by these same oil companies than one would care to believe.
Show me where I didnt show there primary profit isnt from oil? I showed you that they arent making that much profit (I even gave you the profit numbers versus revenue) and the increase in price is not in any way tied to profit taking of refineries. I also showed you that the majority of increase in profit is not due to more profit taking per gallon of gasoline, or dollar per sale, but rather on total sales. Something I did by analyzing both that profit and the cut they take as shown by a state. You can't just sit here and argue like a liberal like you feel.. Find a source that shows the portion of refinery has risen beyond its typical cyclical cycle of price.
Also show that while alot of oil companies are franchised that somehow the oil company controls their operations and the owned ones make up the majority of the gas station market.
Then show the same thing for refineries versus oil providers.
Finally show how 1.5 cents a dollar and 4.5 cents a gallon increase of profitability on there part accounts for a gas increase of over a dollar.

And when one talks of capping retail prices at such times it doesn't matter whether the retail price is capped or the distribution price is capped or the wholesale price is capped - or if the oil refiner themsleves are forced to suck up the loss of selling the product at a fixed price for the duration.
And yet again why.. why is the company going to sell it here for a loss.. What drives them to suck it up? Why has the anti trust government group and thousands of economists analyzed the oil market over and over and never once found a shred of evidence of collusion? What can one oil company use to insure collaboration given we all know the fact of Graham Nashs equillibrium, that only in the presence of a method to determine cheating and punnish the cheater can collusion occur.

Look at the prices and see that the increase is at the crude oil level. Making refineries and gas stations completely uninvolved in the gas price.
Realize that capping crude would only work if the entire world capped crude, and that regardless there is a market out there, a hedge fund and it does drive price. That tomorrow you personally could buy enough on that open market to raise the gas price if you had the cash available. Then see the proof that the usage of oil has increased.. You've basically ventured back to the oil speculators on the free market and those companies that mine the oil themselves. Only problem is, there demand has increased, and theres no way a price cap can deal with them.

You can deal with them by a) shutting down the futures market for over speculation.
b) investigating collusion and price gouging and dealing if found
c) keeping a reserve the Us can release.

Price caps do NOT solve any of the issues, as opposed to those listed above. Historical analysis, price analysis, profitability analysis.. all back me up..

Balls in your court rc, put up or shut up.

[graywolf624]

In fact people probably bought a little less gas - yet each day the price went up 10 cents - for no reason other than the oil company owned distributer could ratchet the price up and rake in some bonus profit.

Where the hell do you live? Considering I watched on cnn the last few weeks as people talked about buying entire months worth of gas.. I went to the gas station and waited in line for gas, while passing every gas station in the tri state area in line for gas.. But no.. its all in my imagination the Katrina caused gas shortages. Its all in my imagination that all across the country there are cases of stations being out of gas, which Ive personally encountered as well.

Its all a bad dream Dennis.. Its all caused by those evil oil companies that somehow all collaborate so efficiently that no ones ever seen it, hide their profit numbers despite sarbanes Oxley, have an invisible force they can use against people that break the collaboration, the oil speculators that operate just like the bubble related to the stock market that we've seen before in numerous other markets are all imagined too... And we can use price caps at the pump to control a global conglomeration of probably in the 100s of companies, and can quit selling in the US and just sell there at almost any time(nearly at will), indirectly from 4 companies away.

Having spent countless hours studying the oil market.. and even giving you my numbers backing things up...I can say without a doubt it isn't the evil corporations. Corporations are motivated to make profits, but that motivation kills any hope of collusion cause if they quit the collusion they make even more profits.

[RC45]

In fact people probably bought a little less gas - yet each day the price went up 10 cents - for no reason other than the oil company owned distributer could ratchet the price up and rake in some bonus profit.

Where the hell do you live? Considering I watched on cnn the last few weeks as people talked about buying entire months worth of gas.. I went to the gas station and waited in line for gas, while passing every gas station in the tri state area in line for gas.. But no.. its all in my imagination the Katrina caused gas shortages.

Didn't happen here - at all - anywhere.

Not a single line.

No rush, no panic, no stock piling.

Seems the media and the public colluded to create a false shortage.


Its all a bad dream Dennis.. Its all caused by those evil oil companies that somehow all collaborate so efficiently that no ones ever seen it, hide their profit numbers despite sarbanes Oxley, have an invisible force they can use against people that break the collaboration, the oil speculators that operate just like the bubble related to the stock market that we've seen before in numerous other markets are all imagined too... And we can use price caps at the pump to control a global conglomeration of probably in the 100s of companies, and can quit selling in the US and just sell there at almost any time(nearly at will), indirectly from 4 companies away
This is your obtuse extrapolation - all the economic theory in the world would do nothing from December to February to stop people from freezing to death if it cost $1000 a month heat a house in the northeast.

The cost of such heating would have to be capped/frozen/limited to allow the very people that drive the the utopian markets be available to continue "soncuming" come spring.

But of course the model suggests that should all the consumer in this market freeze to death, they will just sell to other markets.. ;)

BTW - people believed all the rumoured inside deals in the electricity power tradng heydays "could never take place" - but they did. :)

And one more thing - an inate understanding of the perversions that drive and self fulfill market movement prophecies may allow someone to profit substantially from these predicted market movements as they self fulfill their selfserving predictable movements - it does nothing to assist in managing the humans beings and their wellbeing that are the consumers that drive the retail markets these trading markets rely on.

In other words forget the one and the other may die as well ;)

[graywolf624]

This is your obtuse extrapolation - all the economic theory in the world would do nothing from December to February to stop people from freezing to death if it cost $1000 a month heat a house in the northeast.

The cost of such heating would have to be capped/frozen/limited to allow the very people that drive the the utopian markets be available to continue "soncuming" come spring.
Yes.. Exactly.. All the economic theory in the world would do nothing to stop people freezing to death with cost 1000 a month heat in house if its due to demand. If its due to speculation or price gouging you can go after it with a trust bust, stop the market, or release the reserve at the level your concerned at. But in terms of raw price or demand, only the market controls that. No company will sell very long below the market price. They won't stay very long below cost if they can change targets and go above cost either. Only a government would continue to sell at that point, and that only can last so long(as the nation of France having its debt declared junk and Italy struggling with its national owned industries attest)


But of course the model suggests that should all the consumer in this market freeze to death, they will just sell to other markets..
As they will...As they have...
Youve backed me up when we've discussed socialized medicine and how the doctors pack up. How they move to America cause we pay what they deserve rather then the chicken scratch they get in those countries. Why would you think this would be any different in oil?


And one more thing - an inate understanding of the perversions that drive and self fulfill market movement prophecies may allow someone to profit substantially from these predicted market movements as they self fulfill their selfserving predictable movements - it does nothing to assist in managing the humans beings and their wellbeing that are the consumers that drive the retail markets these trading markets rely on.
Hence the idea of shutting down the speculative hedges if they get too speculative. In fact this type of protection does exist and is automatic. All major US markets have stop gaps so if the price swings too wildly, automatically trades are suspended for a period to allow cooling off.

A Freeman economist believes that in reality interfereing with the market is at best impossible to predict the result, at worst makes things worse. Hence he argues that the govt could mess with the money supply(monitary policy) through bonds rate, but the effect has such a variable delay that it is impossible to predict the outcome. So its best you dont do anything.

He can promote long term structural changes, like a decrease in tax rate/ flatening of the tax curve to encourage spending and harder work. Or even in this case anti trust/collusion objectives. But never is it a good solution to interfere to solve a crisis as the outcome is always worse or unknown.