*** 2005 United States Grand Prix ***

[Toronto]

Track Information
Location: Indianapolis, USA
Direction: clockwise
Lap Length: 4.192km
Race Laps: 73
Race Legnth: 306.016km
Lap Record: 1:10.399 (Rubens Barrichello, 2004)

[gobs3z]

Can't wait to get to indy!! I hope i can good pictures for all of you. Is anyone else on JW heading to indy for the race?

[sameerrao]

I wish I could go this year but work constraints are holding me back.

BTW Toronto where are you Canadian GP pics - aint seen any yet?

[|Nuno|]

Friday Practise 1 Results:


Pos No Driver Team

1 10 Juan Pablo Montoya McLaren-Mercedes 1:12.027

2 38 Ricardo Zonta Toyota 1:12.085

3 5 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:12.666

4 8 Nick Heidfeld Williams-BMW 1:12.804

5 3 Jenson Button BAR-Honda 1:12.865

6 35 Pedro de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes 1:12.913

7 4 Takuma Sato BAR-Honda 1:13.013

8 6 Giancarlo Fisichella Renault 1:13.024

9 7 Mark Webber Williams-BMW 1:13.082

10 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:13.242

11 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:13.245

12 17 Ralf Schumacher Toyota 1:13.461

13 16 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:13.683

14 14 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing 1:13.740

15 37 Scott Speed Red Bull Racing 1:13.846

16 15 Christian Klien Red Bull Racing 1:14.444

17 12 Felipe Massa Sauber-Petronas 1:14.637

18 11 Jacques Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas 1:14.696

19 19 Narain Karthikeyan Jordan-Toyota 1:14.803

20 18 Tiago Monteiro Jordan-Toyota 1:14.978

21 39 Robert Doornbos Jordan-Toyota 1:15.791

22 20 Patrick Friesacher Minardi-Cosworth 1:16.343

23 21 Christijan Albers Minardi-Cosworth 1:16.357

24 9 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes *No Time*

[jenkF1]

I love the straight here, with the banking its awesome, reminiscent of the old Monza. I bet the cars will be seeing the dark side of 210 or maybe even 220 this year with the reduction in downforce. However, I'm not a big fan of the infield too much, that slow chicane pisses me off.

[Toronto]

^^^ 213mph is what the toyota hit I think? (not that is on a friday tomorrow is should be a little faster)

[JARS]

^^^ 213mph is what the toyota hit I think? (not that is on a friday tomorrow is should be a little faster)

uh well.. it wont being going that fast for a while after Ralf's faux pas at the last turn about 40 minutes ago ...

video of him sticking it in the wall here
http://www.jabbasworld.net/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1136

:?

[Max Power]

he had a deja vu

[ZfrkS62]

thanks dan. Conclusion: Indy doesn't like Ralf :D

[gobs3z]

^^^No one does :lol:

[|Nuno|]

^^

Hehe, so true...
_______________________________________


Friday Practise 2 Results:


Pos No Driver Team

1 10 Juan Pablo Montoya McLaren-Mercedes 1:11.118

2 9 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 1:11.228

3 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:11.746

4 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:11.758

5 8 Nick Heidfeld Williams-BMW 1:11.825

6 14 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing 1:12.076

7 35 Pedro de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes 1:12.119

8 37 Scott Speed Red Bull Racing 1:12.143

9 5 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:12.265

10 16 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:12.344

11 6 Giancarlo Fisichella Renault 1:12.384

12 12 Felipe Massa Sauber-Petronas 1:12.464

13 7 Mark Webber Williams-BMW 1:12.578

14 15 Christian Klien Red Bull Racing 1:12.664

15 3 Jenson Button BAR-Honda 1:12.803

16 4 Takuma Sato BAR-Honda 1:13.037

17 11 Jacques Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas 1:13.079

18 39 Robert Doornbos Jordan-Toyota 1:13.361

19 38 Ricardo Zonta Toyota 1:13.567

20 20 Patrick Friesacher Minardi-Cosworth 1:13.783

21 21 Christijan Albers Minardi-Cosworth 1:13.963

22 19 Narain Karthikeyan Jordan-Toyota 1:14.008

23 18 Tiago Monteiro Jordan-Toyota 1:14.336

24 17 Ralf Schumacher Toyota

[5vz-fe]

Same spot for 2 times.....man is he bad luck @ Indy. He always critise his own brother these 1 or 2.....

[ZfrkS62]

Scott Speed is doing great. Right on Coulthard's heels, and just barely getting squeezed out by de la Rosa.

I really hope he gets a race seat in the next couple years :D

[mclaren_Gt]

this gp will be the schumacher returns?, i hope yes, i wanna see him again in 1st

[5vz-fe]

I doubt it, Canada's good result is from retirement of 2 Renaults and 1 Mclaren and 1 BAR......so to Win will be quite hard. However, their Friday pace (assuming they are trying race setups) doesn't look too bad, so let's hope for a podium finish again with Alonso crashing <finger's crossed>

[Caplax40]

Man....this time last year I was THERE!!!!! I want to go back so damn bad!

[zondaland]

Ferrari have had good pace all year, their problem is getting that pace in both qualifying and the race. If they qualify well without running ultra-light then they will be a competitive force.

[T-Bird]

Can't wait to get to indy!! I hope i can good pictures for all of you. Is anyone else on JW heading to indy for the race?

I wanted to but it didn't work out, but I will be at Road America for ALMS later this summer! (better IMO probably because it's alot longer :lol: )
Also I heard this great conversation on 94.7 a while back about calling the city Indy and they came to the conclusion that you can't

[saadie]

alrighty 30 mins to practice and then qualification ....

imo s speed did so well because its his ome track .. and he prolly knows braking points better then the others....

[|Nuno|]

Michelin runners are having problems:

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html
__________________________________________________ __


Free Practise 3 Results:


Pos No Driver Team

1 10 Juan Pablo Montoya McLaren-Mercedes 1:10.726

2 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:11.769

3 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:11.838

4 14 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing 1:12.409

5 18 Tiago Monteiro Jordan-Toyota 1:13.399

6 19 Narain Karthikeyan Jordan-Toyota 1:13.764

7 20 Patrick Friesacher Minardi-Cosworth 1:14.572

8 21 Christijan Albers Minardi-Cosworth 1:15.164

9 11 Jacques Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas

10 9 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes

11 3 Jenson Button BAR-Honda

12 4 Takuma Sato BAR-Honda

13 8 Nick Heidfeld Williams-BMW

14 6 Giancarlo Fisichella Renault

15 7 Mark Webber Williams-BMW

16 12 Felipe Massa Sauber-Petronas

17 5 Fernando Alonso Renault

18 15 Christian Klien Red Bull Racing

19 17 Ricardo Zonta Toyota

20 16 Jarno Trulli Toyota

[antonioledesma]

can anyone explain me this about michelin??? :| please

as I've read, they have troubles, but don't know which are?
do the tyres are blowing up or what?'

[dingo]

Poor Ralf, will not race again this weekend (Zonta is taking his place). :( I think next year he won't even bother turning up to the Indy race at all..... :P

Trulli has taken pole position, which is a suprise but I am guessing he is light on fuel. :) Its good to see the Ferrari's at least qualify inside the top 10, but disappointing to have Montoya so far down after his great practice times. :(

Should be another good race though.

[|Nuno|]

can anyone explain me this about michelin??? :| please

as I've read, they have troubles, but don't know which are?
do the tyres are blowing up or what?'

It's kinda odd...

Toyota seem to be more affected team - Ralf's incident, plus Zonta had a puncture too...

On the other side, we have McLaren, who doesn't seem to have any problems...


Michelin says that they don't know what was the problem with the Toyotas, but for safety reason they should bring different tyres for tomorrow (Spain spec tyres to be more precise). Anyway, most sites say that the problem is with the sidewalls - they're too soft and can't cope with the loads on the last turn, specially. But looking at the tyres after Qualifying, I doubt they'd last the whole race anyway...

We'll see tomorrow what happens... Since they fucked up, I hope the FIA lets them change the tyres, but with a penalty.
__________________________________________________ _____________

Qualifying Results:


Pos No Driver Team Time/Retired

1 16 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:10.625

2 9 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 1:10.694

3 3 Jenson Button BAR-Honda 1:11.277

4 6 Giancarlo Fisichella Renault 1:11.290

5 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:11.369

6 5 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:11.380

7 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:11.431

8 4 Takuma Sato BAR-Honda 1:11.497

9 7 Mark Webber Williams-BMW 1:11.527

10 12 Felipe Massa Sauber-Petronas 1:11.555

11 10 Juan Pablo Montoya McLaren-Mercedes 1:11.681

12 11 Jacques Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas 1:11.691

13 17 Ricardo Zonta Toyota 1:11.754

14 15 Christian Klien Red Bull Racing 1:12.132

15 8 Nick Heidfeld Williams-BMW 1:12.430

16 14 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing 1:12.682

17 18 Tiago Monteiro Jordan-Toyota 1:13.462

18 21 Christijan Albers Minardi-Cosworth 1:13.632

19 19 Narain Karthikeyan Jordan-Toyota 1:13.776

20 20 Patrick Friesacher Minardi-Cosworth 1:14.494

[ViperASR]

Wow, i didnt know that Ralf wasnt racing, i would assume it was because of his crash, basically the same spot as before. I wonder what is going on with that turn and him. I think that the Toyota incidents were just freak accidents. I dont believe that they were tyre manufacturing problems. One seemed to be a flat spot, and it looked like Ralf bottemed out going around the corner before he crashed.

[racer_f50]

Seems like Ferrari is right on this pace this time in those free practice sessions, so hopefully that's an indication of the actual race :D

Their qualifying positions aren't that bad either compared to past results, so maybe they're pretty heavy on fuel and Schumi can pull some nice results mid-race like in Imola 8)

[zondaland]

Well if Michelin don't run in the race then either Jordan or Minardi will get a podium finish. Can you imagine Paul Stoddart if Minardi got on the podium.

[5vz-fe]

Well if Michelin don't run in the race then either Jordan or Minardi will get a podium finish. Can you imagine Paul Stoddart if Minardi got on the podium.

That would be a rare sight to see LOL!

[ViperASR]

Seems like Ferrari is right on this pace this time in those free practice sessions, so hopefully that's an indication of the actual race :D

Their qualifying positions aren't that bad either compared to past results, so maybe they're pretty heavy on fuel and Schumi can pull some nice results mid-race like in Imola 8)

I hope that Ferrari and Bridgestone are getting their act together. I wonder how much money that they are losing because they are losing races?

[ZfrkS62]

shit....is this going to be on Speed or CBS?!?! makes a differene as to where i'm going to watch it.

[Max Power]

Well if Michelin don't run in the race then either Jordan or Minardi will get a podium finish. Can you imagine Paul Stoddart if Minardi got on the podium.

they have to have a min. of 12 cars on the grid...if no michelin runners, race would be cancelled

[T-Bird]

shit....is this going to be on Speed or CBS?!?! makes a differene as to where i'm going to watch it.

Well I watched Qualifying/practice on Speed and the Race is at 12:30 central on Speed tomorrow so basically Lemans from now till the end tomorrow morning then the after show stuff, followed by some Nascar show then the Grand Prix warm ups followed by Speed News then the race. Man I love this DVR digital Cable shit. what's reall fucked up is that they cutoff Lemans to show a Nascar Truck race then back to Lemans then Later they cut away to some Hooters Pro Am racing shit. but now till the end it's all Lemans so those hicks wanting their nascar this weekend are fucked between Lemans and the US Grand Prix (which I have to record due to work.

[ZfrkS62]

sweet. Thanks T-bird.

[T-Bird]

no problems man

EDIT: it seems the grand prix of Portland? is on Tomorrow at 2:30 on CBS...

[|Nuno|]

Update on the Tyre Situation:


ccording to reports from the French AFP agency, Michelin did dispatch a new batch of tyres from France yesterday evening to arrive at Indianapolis this morning.

Details of meetings last night between the team bosses, Michelin, the teams and the FIA have not been made public but it is clear that Michelin will not change their advice to the teams and give them their blessing to race this afternoon with the current tyres.

Bringing new tyres to the race creates its own problems as the teams have no track experience with the particular compound at Indianapolis and even if that were not an issue, Michelin needs to get the three Bridgestone-shod teams and the FIA to agree any change in tyre mid Grand Prix weekend.

On top of that, Michelin has stated that they do not know the causes of Friday’s tyre problems and by simply bringing in a new batch of rubber, may not correct their problems.

There has also been suggestions that a chicane could be placed in the final banked turn, but this too has issues, not least in terms of car setup, gearbox ratios and of course the fact this would be seen to be helping Michelin in what is a sporting contest with Bridgestone.

There is the possibility that the seven Michelin equipped teams – Renault, McLaren, Williams, Toyota, Red Bull, Sauber and BAR – simply may not take part in the 73-lap race leaving just the six Bridgestone-shod starters.

Ultimately in Formula One, money is king and a solution will probably be found to enable all contracts to be met between the teams, suppliers, television companies, FOM, paying-public, and Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
__________________________________________________ ____________

I guess we'll have to wait for the race to see what happens...

[SFDMALEX]

Oh baby! Lets see what Ferrari does, we all know Ferrari and politics :D

[|Nuno|]

Check this out: :mrgreen:


Letter to the FIA, by Michelin:

Letter from Representatives of Michelin to Charlie Whiting, the FIA Formula One Race Director:

Saturday June 18 2005
Indianapolis

Charlie Whiting, FIA Race Director and Safety delegate

Dear Mr Whiting

Having analysed and fully evaluated the tyre failures that have occurred over the Indianapolis Grand Prix practice sessions we have been unable to identify a root cause.

The current rules and timescale do not permit the use of an alternative tyre solution and the race must be performed with the qualifying tyres.

Michelin has in the sole interest of safety informed its partner teams that we do not have total assurance that all tyres that qualified the cars can be used unless the vehicle speed in turn 13 can be reduced.

Michelin very much regrets this situation, but has taken this decision after careful consideration and in the best interests of safety at the event.

We trust that the FIA can understand our position and we remain at your disposal if you want any further information.

Pierre Dupasquier
Michelin Motorsport Director

Nick Shorrock
Director of Michelin F1 activities

Cc:
Bernie Ecclestone
Michelin teams
Ron Dennis (West McLaren-Mercedes)
Flavio Briatore (Mild Seven Renault F1)
Frank Williams (BMW WilliamsF1 Team)
Peter Sauber (Sauber Petronas)
Christian Horner (Red Bull Racing)
Nick Fry (B-A-R Honda)
John Howett (Panasonic Toyota Racing)



FIA's answer:

Letter from Charlie Whiting, the FIA Formula One Race Director, in reply to above letter from Representatives of Michelin:

19 June, 2005

Dear Mr Dupasquier,
Dear Mr Shorrock,

We have received your letter of 18 June.

We are very surprised that this difficulty has arisen. As you know, each team is allowed to bring two different types of tyre to an event so as to ensure that a back-up (usually of lower performance) is available should problems occur. It is hard to understand why you have not supplied your teams with such a tyre given your years of experience at Indianapolis.

That the teams you supply are not in possession of such a tyre will also be a matter for the FIA to consider in due course under Article 151c of the International Sporting Code.

No doubt you will inform your teams what is the maximum safe speed for their cars in Turn 13. We will remind them of the need to follow your advice for safety reasons. We will also ask them to ensure their cars do not obstruct other competitors.

Some of the teams have raised with us the possibility of running a tyre which was not used in qualifying. We have told them this would be a breach of the rules to be considered by the stewards. We believe the penalty would not be exclusion but would have to be heavy enough to ensure that no team was tempted to use qualifying tyres in the future.

Another possibility would be for the relevant teams repeatedly to change the affected tyre during the race (we understand you have told your teams the left rear is safe for a maximum of ten laps at full speed). If the technical delegate and the stewards were satisfied that each change was made because the tyre would otherwise fail (thus for genuine safety reasons) and that the relevant team were not gaining an advantage, there would be no penalty. If this meant using tyres additional to a teams� allocation, the stewards would consider all the circumstances in deciding what penalty, if any, to apply.

Finally, it has been suggested that a chicane should be laid out in Turn 13. I am sure you will appreciate that this is out of the question. To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres.

Yours sincerely,

Charlie Whiting
FIA Formula One Race Director

cc: Bernie Ecclestone
Ron Dennis (West McLaren-Mercedes)
Flavio Briatore (Mild Seven Renault F1)
Frank Williams (BMW WilliamsF1 Team)
Peter Sauber (Sauber Petronas)
Christian Horner (Red Bull Racing)
Nick Fry (B-A-R Honda)
John Howett (Panasonic Toyota Racing)
Jean Todt (Scuderia Ferrari)
Colin Kolles (Jordan Grand Prix)
Paul Stoddart (Minardi F1 Team)

Formula One Press Corps
__________________________________________________ ___________


We will also ask them to ensure their cars do not obstruct other competitors

LMAO!! I'm picturing right now a Minardi lapping the Michelin teams. :lol:

[SFDMALEX]

Would it be FIA to blame or teams?

Teams, rules are rules, and its just not right for them to use a new tire cause they have performance issues with the current one. Up to them to bring the right tire.


So Michelin fucked up and now everyone has to suffer :?

[Max Power]

I hear that some teams might take the start and then retire...this tire rule is a load of crock...but then again minardi have never finished on the podium :shock:

[SFDMALEX]

/\/\/\ Yep, stupid tire rule, first it hit Ferrari, now it hit Michelin......

[ZfrkS62]

Kimi has said he wants to race!!

__________________________________________________ ___________

From www.f1racing.net

19 June 2005
Cool Kimi ignores tyre menace

Kimi Raikkonen is taking a typically cool approach to Michelin's Indy F1 tyre debacle. McLaren's Finn, desperate to further close the gap to championship leader Fernando Alonso, vowed not to worry about a Ralf Schumacher-like failure on the flat out oval banking.

"I think they'll be ok," the 25-year-old said after snaring a front row look at the first corner in qualifying. "Maybe we need to be careful but I will still go as fast as I can. It's a little bit difficult. Michelin is telling us what they think should be done but we want to go out and win the race."

Pole sitter Jarno Trulli, meanwhile - at the wheel of the offending Toyota, accused of running dangerously low tyre pressures on Friday - admitted to not feeling totally confident with the car. "I don't know what will happen," he acknowledged. "I don't think it's our car, it's not set up and it's not pressure -- it's something else."
__________________________________________________ _____

I think Kimi is telling Michelin to fuck off :D

[ViperASR]

I think that it is a problem with the tire itself. They want a chicane or no race. The FIA is telling all the teams to go to the grid, and they are in a meeting about the race right now.

[ViperASR]

6 cars racing as of now, thats just sad....... At least Minardi or Jordan will get a podeum position.

[sameerrao]

Am I glad I didnt pay the big bucks to go watch the race live! Fncking Michelin!

1-2-3-4-5-6 Bridgestone assuming all cars finish

[DTM8]

wow, what a blow to american fans considering that many payed top dollar. :?

[antonioledesma]

fuck!!!
I'm glad I didn't go to indy :mrgreen:

not watching the race, but reading the live timing and I'm surprised :|

[noosee]

The worst possible race ever :(
And I think they can stop now already. It's enough.
Now all those people will want to get money for tickets back

[evoWalo]

fuck!!!
I'm glad I didn't go to indy :mrgreen:

not watching the race, but reading the live timing and I'm surprised :|
I've experienced going to a F1 race after Schumi won the series. It isnt very fun.

[5vz-fe]

That is really not funny....................as much as I want schumi to win, but NOT THIS WAY!!! This is totally pathetic. 6 cars........ man, ppl play lots of money to see Ferrari beating Minardi and Jordon?? On man, I guess there's no hope for F1 in America after all.

[sameerrao]

How many percent of the race do they have to race that you get the points even if you're nto driving to the end? They can maybe stop after 36 laps and everybody can go home :lol:

*EDIT*

Ferrari will be 2nd in constructors champion ship table after this race. This sure is a jackpot to them and a bad day to McLaren and Renault.

I think it is 75% of race distance or a certain amount of time into the race - 2 hours I believe

[ericgt]

I was expecting them to do a burnout blister the tires at the first pitstop , then replace them.
Thought the new tires rules were dangerous.

[5vz-fe]

I would have thrown bottles too if I wasted a grand on a what looks to be a testing session. Hell, I even feel ripped off turning on the TV and watch the race......

[No.1]

Ridiculous.... Michelin surely in the wrong. Even if they were permitted to send a new tyre batch out, the cars set up would be all wrong.

:roll:

However, the commentary is worth listening to just for the politics going on

[antonioledesma]

even with the new batch of tyres dispatched, they would have broken the rules and you know all those stupid ppl runinng the FIA

[ViperASR]

Am I glad I didnt pay the big bucks to go watch the race live! Fncking Michelin!

1-2-3-4-5-6 Bridgestone assuming all cars finish

Thats why all the fans are throwing stuff onto the track. People dropped thousands of dollars into this weekend, between tickets, hotel, travel, food..... I think that they have the right to be pissed. For most of them, this is a once in a life-time opportunity.

I really dont know what they should have done. I think that they should have allowed the teams to put on the new tires that they were supplied with last night. Then, they should have allowed the Bridgestone teams to put on new tires, so that there are no performance issues with the tires. I think that the impact of this race will be felt for a long time in America. What a waste!!! :bad:

[GT-R_R34]

michelin's sales in america is going to go to the floor.

[sameerrao]

Throw bottles at Michelin and not the poor guys on the track

[antonioledesma]

OMG... this race will be a sunday car ride with your family... veeery slow, calm, seeing the trees, the green areas, animals, etc :?

if jordan or minardi aren't able to finish this race, they should retire from F1

[No.1]

michelin's sales in america is going to go to the floor.

I doubt it :? GM may/may not already use Michelin tyres on their cars, they will not, all of a sudden switch to Bridgestone to protest. Business doesn't work like that :wink:

[FoxFour]

Ridiculous.... Michelin surely in the wrong. Even if they were permitted to send a new tyre batch out, the cars set up would be all wrong.

:roll:

However, the commentary is worth listening to just for the politics going on

Lets just see what the situation is days or weeks after this race. I'm sure more info will be leaked out. As of now, I'm not blaming Michelin. Engineering failures can and do happen. At least they realized something was wrong and they acted accordingly. Hard decision but the right thing to do.
As far as the FIA not accepting a compromise- not surprising. And the FIA statement that a chicane would not be fair to the other non Michelin teams is totally bogus, IMO. I'm sure that the other teams would be willing to make this compromise. ( Oh damn! Right at this moment, a Bridgestone tire commercial is being shown on SPEED. I'm going to see if we will see any Michelin commercials during the race)
And BTW, did anyone notice during the Le-Mans race that when some of the cars experienced tire failures on the Mitchies, some of the pit crews would cover the tires up real quick so as the camera crews couldn't get a good shot of the damage? I noticed that when the Aston Martin car experienced a tire blow-out.

[ViperASR]

I think the will cancel/abort the race

next bottle: http://img250.echo.cx/img250/4426/waterbottle26ew.th.jpg (http://img250.echo.cx/my.php?image=waterbottle26ew.jpg)


It dosnt seem like they are going to abort the race. FIA director said that this will be a points race, and it will go on in its full completion. He also said that they could not put in a chicane because they can not alter a race for a few teams because they brought bad equipment to a race. That this would be a violation of the rules.
I can undertand where he is comming from, but they should have tried to compromise, instead of having only 6 cars race. :slap:

[FoxFour]

I have tried to gain access to Michelin's Motorsport link on this page and am getting no response. When I tried to click on the ALMS tab under the Motorsport link, another page opened up and said that the site is down at the moment.
http://www.michelin-us.com/#
Watch this space! Bet you that they are going to issue a lengthy statement. Oh well, one thing is for sure. The FIA is going to get some airtime on the US national nightly news tonight!

[aj887]

I said this before in the thread I started, my bad for that. Max mosley is an idiot. So far rules have determined two races. Kimi Raikonnen losing because of his flat spot, although it was his fault he should have been able to change his tire and the USGP. There was nothing wrong with the rules before. The safety of the drivers is at stake. I do like the point Derek Bell brought up on the US broadcast in which he said that Firestone may have been able to give knowledge to bridgestone from their experience from Indy testing.

[G.Boss]

I think Michelin has no honor and is a piece of sh*t. I think they have no honor because they compromise their safety to get pole position, then after they get it, they wanna change the track. It's like I cheat in school and get all A's and go to a great school, and then i cant handle the work, so i ask the school to make everything easy. It's pure bs and I applaud Bridgestone. Oh yea, another thing. Ferrari is losing in the championship purely because of tires, but you don't see them saying anything. They just follow the rules and race. The other teams though, think that they are all cool and want to change the track just to win. They should drive slower, that's all. What are they, too high and mighty to accept defeat. They gotta change everything. Well i say, F**K THEM!
thank you, lol.

[ViperASR]

^^^^
I dont think that Michelin compromised their safety to get pole position. The only reason that Toyota got the pole was because they were running very low fuel because the American market is very important to Toyota. Toyota even admitted to running a low fuel load to get the pole, so yea.

[No.1]

Ridiculous.... Michelin surely in the wrong. Even if they were permitted to send a new tyre batch out, the cars set up would be all wrong.

:roll:

However, the commentary is worth listening to just for the politics going on

Lets just see what the situation is days or weeks after this race. I'm sure more info will be leaked out. As of now, I'm not blaming Michelin. Engineering failures can and do happen. At least they realized something was wrong and they acted accordingly. Hard decision but the right thing to do.

I understand that, but the Michelin decision to announce a fault was not hard. They had to do it, because if there was any injury/death/penalty incurred as a result of their tyres failing, it would be their heads on the block. They had to make the decision, it would have been negligent, let alone immoral, for them not to do so.

I am sure more information will leak out following the race, and i suspect we will never know the full story. As a guide, look at the time of a pesons post, then decide how much knowledge they had o base their arguement/comment on :|

[ae86_16v]

^^^ Slow down . . . the cars in those turns then. Yes you are at a competitive disadvantage, but Michelin fucked up. . . you can't change the course or penalize Ferrari and Bridgestone teams.

Bottomline, they fucked up.

Wow, this is amazing though. . . the reprecussion from this race will be very interesting to say the least.

[FoxFour]

They (Michelin) have learned the lessons that Firestone failed to learn. BTW, I have been going to all the Michelin sites all over the world, seems they have shut down their Motorsports links.

[SFDMALEX]

Fucking Michelin! This is horrible.

Michelin fucked up, and FIA didnt do anything wrong, nothing could have been done. Michelin should have another tire as by the rules in case the one they race has problems.


Bridgestone teams have the full right to race because they got everything right, they came in prepared, they should not suffer because of Michelin.


And I say the Michelin teams are full of fucking shit! THey can easily slow down for T13, it can be done, theres a pedal for slowing down, its called a brake!

[jon_s]

It is a very sad day for F1 and more importantly the fans.

There is a lot of fall out involved in this which goes a lot further than F1. I was called into work this morning over some aspects of this, granted not on the immediate issue at hand, but putting contingency plans into place for one of the parties involved –(not for Michelin)- .

The whole situation is extremely volatile; the true depth and damage that this situation has caused is not yet known. It is probably of no surprise, but I have my doubts over Michelin’s future involvement in the sport.

[yg60m]

Fucking Michelin! This is horrible.

Michelin fucked up, and FIA didnt do anything wrong, nothing could have been done. Michelin should have another tire as by the rules in case the one they race has problems.


Bridgestone teams have the full right to race because they got everything right, they came in prepared, they should not suffer because of Michelin.


And I say the Michelin teams are full of fucking shit! THey can easily slow down for T13, it can be done, theres a pedal for slowing down, its called a brake!

I would say fucking FIA and Ferrai, all the teams were agree to race with a chicane even if they wouldn't get any points excepted Ferrari .....
It was just a question of safety ... As FIA boss remind some weeks ago :wink:

[SFDMALEX]

Fucking Michelin! This is horrible.

Michelin fucked up, and FIA didnt do anything wrong, nothing could have been done. Michelin should have another tire as by the rules in case the one they race has problems.


Bridgestone teams have the full right to race because they got everything right, they came in prepared, they should not suffer because of Michelin.


And I say the Michelin teams are full of fucking shit! THey can easily slow down for T13, it can be done, theres a pedal for slowing down, its called a brake!

I would say fucking FIA and Ferrai, all the teams were agree to race with a chicane even if they wouldn't get any points excepted Ferrari .....
It was just a question of safety ... As FIA boss remind some weeks ago :wink:

What did Ferrari do??? I think they had zero infuelnce on the issue.

[ViperASR]

I think that Michalin acted very maturly with what happend though. Eveyone seems to be mad at them, but i am proud of them. They took drivers saftey into play, and ruled that the saftey was more important than the race. I think that was a very mature decision.

[No.1]

@Yann's comments

That wasn't the case as far as i am concerned.

And even if the chicane was inserted, Michelin still provided inadequate materials. :roll: And what were the drivers supposed to do? Spend the first 10 laps trying to find the optimum braking point and clipping point for the new corner? I think not.... Ferrari and the others had to race.... they cannot decide not to race, it's in their contracts.

Anyway, enough speculation and comment from me, i want some press releases :mrgreen:

[SFDMALEX]

I think that Michalin acted very maturly with what happend though. Eveyone seems to be mad at them, but i am proud of them. They took drivers saftey into play, and ruled that the saftey was more important than the race. I think that was a very mature decision.

Proud? If they cared about driver safety they would have brought the right tire mate.

[TransAm]

Hmm. As many have said, this is a sad day for F1. I switched on halfway through and it took me a while to work out just what the hell was going on.

The fans that threw bottles and beer onto the track should be ashamed of themselves. I'm glad there was not an accident on that corner due to the debris.

Reubens did well not to smack Michael for pushing him off the track after MS's pitstop, but that's the type of driving we have come to expect from our German friend...

As for the consequential impact upon Michelin sales in the USA, a lot of Americans boycott French products already because of the lack of support in Iraq.

[|Nuno|]

I would say fucking FIA and Ferrai, all the teams were agree to race with a chicane even if they wouldn't get any points excepted Ferrari .....
It was just a question of safety ... As FIA boss remind some weeks ago :wink:

Say what...? Ferrari weren't even on the meeting. :roll: They made clear that what the FIA decided would be ok with them. Next thing it's Ferrari's fault that Michelin can't make a proper tyre... :roll:


Michelin are fucking idiots. They say they care about safety and then bring a tyre that can't last for 10 laps. And it's not the first time that their durability is rather doubtful. The tyre rule is bullshit, but this time, it's all Michelin's fault.



I feel sorry for the people who went to the GP (except for the morons throwing bottles, of course).

[twboy1999]

what an sad day for f1

now, the american market for f1 will definitly go down the hole

why did michilne fail to bring a proper tire is just stupd

as for the rest..... wtf was the point of all the car lining up on the grid, and then going back in again??????

and for the fans that were throwing objects on the track, that was just pure dangerous and stupid

why the fans booed ferrari and cheer jordan on the podium is beyond my guess..weirdos

[ViperASR]

I think that Michalin acted very maturly with what happend though. Eveyone seems to be mad at them, but i am proud of them. They took drivers saftey into play, and ruled that the saftey was more important than the race. I think that was a very mature decision.

Proud? If they cared about driver safety they would have brought the right tire mate.

People screw up. Its perfectly natural. I dont think that they brought the wrong tire, the tire just didnt work right.

[ae86_16v]

I would say fucking FIA and Ferrai, all the teams were agree to race with a chicane even if they wouldn't get any points excepted Ferrari .....
It was just a question of safety ... As FIA boss remind some weeks ago :wink:

Say what...? Ferrari weren't even on the meeting. :roll: They made clear that what the FIA decided would be ok with them. Next thing it's Ferrari's fault that Michelin can't make a proper tyre... :roll:


Michelin are fucking idiots. They say they care about safety and then bring a tyre that can't last for 10 laps. And it's not the first time that their durability is rather doubtful. The tyre rule is bullshit, but this time, it's all Michelin's fault.



I feel sorry for the people who went to the GP (except for the morons throwing bottles, of course).

Exactly. . . this is completely on Michelin and no one else. It is not Ferrari's or FIA's fault for not bring the correct tires for the race. No one else.

Why should Ferrari be penalized for having the correct tires?!?!

This blows chunks. . . so much for Formula 1 in the US!!!

[Max Power]

I figure this race could be cancelled out from the championship, plus ppl are gonna sue F1, Indy, Ferrari, everybody for millions...I still can't understand why michelin teams didn't run...there were plenty of options other than the absolute worst one...morons :?

[noosee]

Very very sad.
First of all I think that this stupid one tire per race rule is guilty in this situation.
It's just so difficult to make tires last 300 km on f1 car. Michelin of cource is guilty in this situation as they were unable to bring competitive tire. But as it was told they could register two tire types for the race hard & soft. And what they did, they only brought soft tires. Stupid assholes. This will have a big impact on next years race in US.
But if if would be Bridgestone who did that we would hardly notice absence of Ferrari Jordan & Minardi.

[jenkF1]

What can I say...

It hasn't really sank in yet I just don't believe its happened. What mostly p*** me off the most is that -

> Bernie's promise fell through

> Ferrari have the complete stupidity to solely blame Michelin...?!?!?!? AND didn't want to race supposidly EVEN IF Michelin teams, if they got the chicane they wanted , got no points...

Okay, Michelin f****up. But please!!!! In the modern world the teams and the FIA cannot come to an agreement!?!?!?

Guess thats the end of F1 in America then.

[xecutioner]

why should things change just bc michelin's tyres aint great

ferrari, jordan and minardi have done nuthin wrong racing just bc there tyres are great at this track..the have every right to go out n race..to bad for the michelin teams and they all should get heavily fined for this bc f1 looks damn stupid..

funny how r.schui's accident happened at the same corner this year as last year

i dont think we will c another f1 race again in america

i really feel for the fans who went to the race and just hearin them comment on wat they thought of wat happened was how everyone thinks

such a sad day for f1 and now michelin are gonna look very stupid infront of there home grand prix in 2 weeks bc i cant c this gettin fixed any time soon

[jakaracman]

I think that Michalin acted very maturly with what happend though. Eveyone seems to be mad at them, but i am proud of them. They took drivers saftey into play, and ruled that the saftey was more important than the race. I think that was a very mature decision.

Proud? If they cared about driver safety they would have brought the right tire mate.

People screw up. Its perfectly natural. I dont think that they brought the wrong tire, the tire just didnt work right.
They brought 2 different deadly tires. That's not a mistake, that bein incompetent. I'm taking their deadlytires off my road car and never boy them again.
They sould be penalised severaly (read in billions of dollars), nobodu would cry after looser like that.
And yes, they shuld have driven. The driver are paid for that - sand to take risks ...
Chichane? Yeah, right. And when someone else decides that medium fast left corners dont suit them, FIA will instal cihichanes in them?

[bultaco_metralla]

Pffffff my sunday afternoon fucked up... you all talk about michelin but i think that the chicane solution was good, michelin teams talk about give the points to ferrari etc ... but they wanted to race...

BTW finally who won?? and third??? Telecinco finally stoped the images...

[Anonymous]

Ok as i understand it michelin DID have the option to run a tyre, but the performance wouldn't have been great and the FIA would have punished them. This information came from the ITV talking to various people including the ferrari communications guy. I may have heard/ interpreted wrong as i had to visit reatives :roll:

Until i heard that i was bemoaning too Ferrari to for not allowing the chicane so we would have a spectacle (awarding the 3 left over teams points for a first and second finish each for instance would be no problem in my eyes, they were in the right really in this case. If i was in Ferrari's position and the circumstances are as i understand them now i would have acted exactly the same. Seemed to be a fair bit of confusion anyway :bah:

Last US grand prix we'll see i would think and well in my eyes us the fans aren't missing a great deal, i didn't get that excited by the race in the US. However it was important for the sponsers/teams and for the growth of the sport. And as for the guys throwing stuff onto the track, well i understand their frustration but if anyone is caught, on camera or otherwise i would ban them from sporting arenas for life and procecute them to the full extent of the law. to much of it in football of late and to throw it onto a racing circuit is 1000 times more dangerous

[yg60m]

Fucking Michelin! This is horrible.

Michelin fucked up, and FIA didnt do anything wrong, nothing could have been done. Michelin should have another tire as by the rules in case the one they race has problems.


Bridgestone teams have the full right to race because they got everything right, they came in prepared, they should not suffer because of Michelin.


And I say the Michelin teams are full of fucking shit! THey can easily slow down for T13, it can be done, theres a pedal for slowing down, its called a brake!

I would say fucking FIA and Ferrai, all the teams were agree to race with a chicane even if they wouldn't get any points excepted Ferrari .....
It was just a question of safety ... As FIA boss remind some weeks ago :wink:

What did Ferrari do??? I think they had zero infuelnce on the issue.

they did not take part in the meeting and in F1, the unanimity is necessary to change a rule so they didn't say no but it was all the same ...
And it is not proven that all Michelin's tyres would have been affected, it was simply a principle of precaution ... so I don't think that they can be said to be incompetent !! What were tyres of the winning cars until today ? And do you remember Schumacher punctures in Barcelona ?

[|Nuno|]

Final Standings


Pos No Driver Team Laps

Time/Retired Grid Points

1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Winner

2 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari +1.5 secs

3 18 Tiago Monteiro Jordan-Toyota +1 Lap

4 19 Narain Karthikeyan Jordan-Toyota +1 Lap

5 21 Christijan Albers Minardi-Cosworth +2 Lap

6 20 Patrick Friesacher Minardi-Cosworth +2 Lap

Ret 16 Jarno Trulli Toyota + secs

Ret 9 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes + secs

Ret 3 Jenson Button BAR-Honda + secs

Ret 6 Giancarlo Fisichella Renault + secs

Ret 5 Fernando Alonso Renault + secs

Ret 4 Takuma Sato BAR-Honda + secs

Ret 7 Mark Webber Williams-BMW + secs

Ret 12 Felipe Massa Sauber-Petronas + secs

Ret 10 Juan Pablo Montoya McLaren-Mercedes + secs

Ret 11 Jacques Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas + secs

Ret 17 Ricardo Zonta Toyota + secs

Ret 15 Christian Klien Red Bull Racing + secs

Ret 8 Nick Heidfeld Williams-BMW + secs

Ret 14 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing + secs
__________________________________________________ _____________

With all this shit going on I had almost forgoten that Tiago got a Podium! :D

[5vz-fe]

It is clear that no one got it right in the GP.
I guess FIA and Michelin should be blame the most tho (as oppose to FIA and Ferrari). FIA is clearly the loud voice in the community, and shouldn't have let this decision down to teams to vote. When it comes to voting, there are always objecting voice and the voice of ppl who benifited the most will always be the loudest and making the small voice (bridgestone runners) the bad guys if they oppose. The fact is, Michelin didn't do enough testing and bring 2 sets of imcompetent tires to the USGP, compromising F1 and Driver's Safety. FIA didn't stand up at the right time and make a firm decision to either allow the use of the new batch of tires or the build of a chicane.

F**K UP GP I say.........

[noosee]

Fucking Michelin! This is horrible.

Michelin fucked up, and FIA didnt do anything wrong, nothing could have been done. Michelin should have another tire as by the rules in case the one they race has problems.


Bridgestone teams have the full right to race because they got everything right, they came in prepared, they should not suffer because of Michelin.


And I say the Michelin teams are full of fucking shit! THey can easily slow down for T13, it can be done, theres a pedal for slowing down, its called a brake!

I would say fucking FIA and Ferrai, all the teams were agree to race with a chicane even if they wouldn't get any points excepted Ferrari .....
It was just a question of safety ... As FIA boss remind some weeks ago :wink:

What did Ferrari do??? I think they had zero infuelnce on the issue.

they did not take part in the meeting and in F1, the unanimity is necessary to change a rule so they didn't say no but it was all the same ...
And it is not proven that all Michelin's tyres would have been affected, it was simply a principle of precaution ... so I don't think that they can be said to be incompetent !! What were tyres of the winning cars until today ? And do you remember Schumacher punctures in Barcelona ?

Ferrari did the right thing then not attended meeteng and not agreed with changes.
I don't think that if it would happen with Bridgestone any Michelin teams would act differently.

[5vz-fe]

Acutally, Noose also got a very valid point, if it were the other way around, I don't think the Michelin runners would agree to the options either. (but I bet the fans of those teams will say, by then FIA will stand up and force the execution of the options ... so :fist: )

[jenkF1]

I can't believe everyones throwing the shit at Michelin on this forum.

Look at the FIA and the arrogance of Ferrari for your answer

[bultaco_metralla]

Ferrari did the right thing then not attended meeteng and not agreed with changes.
I don't think that if it would happen with Bridgestone any Michelin teams would act differently.


ofcourse, bridgestone only supports 3 teams....

[|Nuno|]

they did not take part in the meeting and in F1, the unanimity is necessary to change a rule so they didn't say no but it was all the same ...
And it is not proven that all Michelin's tyres would have been affected, it was simply a principle of precaution ... so I don't think that they can be said to be incompetent !! What were tyres of the winning cars until today ? And do you remember Schumacher punctures in Barcelona ?

Read my previous post. The decisions had nothing to do with Ferrari. It was the FIA's decision. Here's Charlie Whitting's response to Michelin:

"To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres."

"Your teams have a choice of running more slowly in Turn 12/13, running a tyre not used in qualifying (which would attract a penalty) or repeatedly changing a tyre (subject to valid safety reasons)," Whiting replied.

Says it all.


And if they wanted to be cautious, they'd simply follow this recommendation... They fuck up, they take the consequences.


And what the fuck does Shumacher's puncture in Spain has to do with anything?

[Anonymous]

I can't believe everyones throwing the shit at Michelin on this forum.

Look at the FIA and the arrogance of Ferrari for your answer

well in my post, i stated why, as i understand it michelin could have run a less competitive tyre that was not unsafe. And the teams be penalised under the rules by the FIA for changing. This way they would have still had a show for the fans even if the bridgstone runners ran away with it..... points issue could have been decided later. But they choose not to get these flown over and persue the chicane option. Its their fuck up why should we have sympathy for them, they were clearing running to close to the limit, and the new diamond cut surface may have just put them over.........

[leo_26782]

Anybody doesn't know what GPWC is yet? Because that is what we will be talking about in 2 years. I expect more then ever the FIA to loose the F1 in 2008, as they prooved that they are unable to bring a compromise that would be suitable for every one. It also looks that most of the team agreed on a solution, but that Ferrari is more and more on its own (I wonder if they will come right along in the new series in 2008...)

I do blame Michelin for the huge mistake they did, but s**t happens, deal with it. What I don't get is why they didn't use the tyre they brought from France! They would have started last, but I would have been 7th for the pole man :roll:

At the beginning, every one said that this tyre rule was dangerous for safety, and now that someone goes the safe way according to this rule, it is the end of the world :?: 14 accidents at the same corner because of tyre issue would have been worst for Michelin than this, especially if there had been a lethal issue. Everyone says it is hard to build a F1 tyre that does 300 km. I am doing 30'000 km with mine, so I am sure they can do well, it might be a little slower, but that is the cost of safety.

I do understand that Ferrari didn't agree to change the track, but I do not feel confortable for them, because many people think it is there fault. It is not the case, the FIA wouldn't have added the chicane either. I would have chosen the modified raceway and no points at the end, but that would have been a hard choice. I wonder what would have happened if it was Bridgestone who had done the mistake?

[leo_26782]

And also, I would keep on using Michelin tyre if I had those on my car.

EDIT: BTW, I also wonder if Ferrari could change the set-up of Ruben's car to make sure he stays second...

[yg60m]

And what the fuck does Shumacher's puncture in Spain has to do with anything?

It just has to do that everybody put the shame on Michelin for not bringing "good" tyres but it can also happen to Bridgestone ...
Nothing prove that R. Schumacher's accident could have happen again during the race ...

[leo_26782]

And what the fuck does Shumacher's puncture in Spain has to do with anything?

It just has to do that everybody put the shame on Michelin for not bringing "good" tyres but it can also happen to Bridgestone ...
Nothing prove that R. Schumacher's accident could have happen again during the race ...

It had happened to Zonta earlier, maybe it is only a Toyota problem :wink:

[|Nuno|]

And what the fuck does Shumacher's puncture in Spain has to do with anything?

It just has to do that everybody put the shame on Michelin for not bringing "good" tyres but it can also happen to Bridgestone ...


First, that's a different situation. And second, of course it can happen to everyone, but in this case it's Michelin's fault, so who do you want me to blame?

Nothing prove that R. Schumacher's accident could have happen again during the race ...

Another reason for them to follow the FIA's recommendation. :wink:

[leo_26782]

Paul Stoddart dixit:


Earlier on today, nine of the 10 competing teams had agreed that, in the interests of safety, a temporary chicane needed to be placed before the final turn, and that unless that took place, the nine teams would not compete [...] For the avoidance of doubt, Minardi only participated when it became clear that Jordan had changed its decision to compete from this morning.


Damned! It could have been a two men race :?

Paul Stoddart again:


A solution, which would have allowed the United States Grand Prix to have proceeded unaffected today existed, but was resisted by the FIA and not supported by Ferrari, who claimed it was not their problem.

[a007apl]

I believe never more F1 will racer in USA
:crazyeyes: :slap: :grab:

[5vz-fe]

How hard is it to understand? Rules are rules, they are not there to be bend, they are there to be enforced. Everytime a chaos happened in F1.....Ferrari's name always brought to the answer. When Ferrari attend an FIA meeting where all other teams didn't show up, it's a conspiracy, when all other team shows up but Ferrari, it's fucking arrogance. What kinda idiotcy is that?

U dont participate in a contest and find out that ur work is off the spec and expect the judges gonna bend the rules for u so that ur work can be included. If FIA were to build the chicane is all due to mercy, they didn't becoz they are only doing their job. All sports rely on their audience, that is why I say FIA should be blamed too for such a ridiculous USGP, but they technically didn't do anything wrong. Just hated it when ppl pointing thier fingers blindly.

[GT-R_R34]

i'm wondering what's going to be shown on the news tomorrow. will the FIA come up with some excuse to penalize the michelin teams. will people sue the GP?(is america after all). will the one tyre rule will change for the other races? will the one tyre control rule will pass. imagine if michelin had tyre control over the race would the FIA change the course or would the team pull out like they did?

[gobs3z]

Well i was at the race, and the cars are a lot louder than i anticipated. Americans won't think twice about what happened at indy because it seemed like only about 40% of the spectators were American which obviously shows most Americans wouldn't care if this happened. But the booing was deffinately evident and even the Ferrari fans were booing Shumacher. But i really think they should have ran in the race even if they didn't complete it. If they ran the cars slower around the track but finished it they would have recieved points, but the only upside i can think of for them not running it is they wouldn't be putting as many miles on their "2 races only" engines as the cars that did run.

Either way this is my first F1 race and it was exciting to see the technology at work instead going to a car show and seeing a paper weight. I'm bringing ear plugs next time :D .

EDIT: People in the U.S. don't care about Formula One, it's sad. :(

[|Nuno|]

Indianapolis Motor Speedway Statement:

The Indianapolis Motor Speedway shares in the disappointment with the loyal fans of IMS and Formula One that we did not see the exciting race we all anticipated due to circumstances beyond our control.

The FIA, Formula One, the constructors and manufacturers that represent the cars on the starting grid made decisions on an individual basis to limit participation in today’s USGP.

We suggest the fans who wish to make their feelings known, contact the following:

Michelin

46, rue du Ressort

63100 Clermont-Ferrand
France
www.michelinsport.com
FIA

8 Place de la Concorde

F-75008 Paris

www.fia.com


Formula One Management

6 Princes Gate

Knightsbridge

London SW7 1QJ

United Kingdom



Michelin Statement:

Michelin is very disappointed about the way the United States Grand Prix turned out at Indianapolis today, for the public, the drivers and the teams.

Michelin is sorry that the tyres it ran in free practice and qualifying were not suitable for use in racing conditions this weekend, but driver safety is always a priority. Michelin will never change its stance on this principle, whether we are talking about tyres for competition or any other purpose.

It is regrettable that our pre-race suggestions, agreed in conjunction with our partner teams, were not adopted. Had our ideas been followed, we could have guaranteed driver safety, the participation of our teams and added interest for the public.

Michelin would like to thank its seven partner teams for their close collaboration, for having made propositions to the FIA and for having respected our advice on safety issues.

Michelin will continue to investigate the technical reasons for the tyre-related incidents that affected Toyota during Friday's free practice.

No Michelin, what's "regrettable" is your lack of competency. They care so much about safety and yet make uber soft tyres, sacrificing safety for speed.

They should be obliged to refund the people who went to the GP.

[irrational_i]

I agree with the bulk of posts here.
I do not believe that anyone made a "mistake" as such. The 7 teams where within their rights to withdraw cars on safety reasons. This merely means the Michelins where not up to scratch and brought inferior equipment.
They could, of course, have competed with a self-imposed speed limit, but they neatly decided to make a political statement (and not waste money?).

I believe the statement (To me, that the FIA is incompetent - read Max Mosely and Ecclestone.) is a valid statement, but made at a terrible expense.
On the other hand all this could possibly have been avoided LAST YEAR, but everybody decided to play childish political games and boycott each other's meetings. Meanwhile the fans lose and the little megalomaniacal turds at the top will sidestep the whole thing citing FIA rules.

5vz-fe is right and I fully agree with him.
I also think that the spectators behaved dismally. Throwing garbage on the track in front of a car braking from 320kph is potential manslaughter. Yes they where cheated in an abyssmal fashion, but don't take it out on guys putting their life on the line that. in fact, did not do anything wrong. They did actually race, which was certainly not easy, as they knew what was going to happen.

For once Le Mans was a lot more exciting and clean.

As I said in a post in the beginning of the year. The sooner Max and Bernie get their f#$% noses out of F1, the better.

[|Nuno|]

Yeah, we saw how much they care about safety at the Nurburgring. Oh, and Monaco too (remember Renault's rear tyres?).

[antonioledesma]

everything is Ferrari's fault!!! :mrgreen:
i think first it was FIA's by that stupid rule of one set of tyres for 2 days. Of course that rule would make engineers try to do a tyre just at the limit of a safety factor
we've seen many crashes, more than other years, because of tyres

ok, it was michelin who had almost all the responsability because they had bad design in their tyres.
But why the hell all those drivers chickened out and didn't go out to race???
their fuckin ego is too big and they could not be seen driving slow???

old racing drivers were real men, not the pussies we have these days!! :|

[antonioledesma]

^^ haha :lol:
and what more? now michelin teams having their tyres melting?? :mrgreen:

[irrational_i]

old racing drivers were real men, not the pussies we have these days!! :|

Indeed! Gilles Villeneuve would have said - "Tyre blow-outs? Okay. I can't tell you which lap but I will blow it anyway!" (His son on the other hand...)
Didier Pironi, Jim Clark, Alberto Ascari - Can't see any of those giving up (James Hunt would have had a smoke and then raced). :D

[Toronto]

TAKE THE US GP OFF FOR 2006

the US f1 fans do not deserve to have one.
they put 6 drivers lives @ risk.
this is a shame. one of the lowest levels in GP history

in other news
great day for minardi :D

[jakaracman]

I agree with the bulk of posts here.
I do not believe that anyone made a "mistake" as such. The 7 teams where within their rights to withdraw cars on safety reasons. This merely means the Michelins where not up to scratch and brought inferior equipment.

They were not. They have to run, because TV and spectator paid for that. They had other options (cahnging tires, driving slowly through T13), but chose to be asses.
.

[SPEEDCORE]

everything is Ferrari's fault!!! :mrgreen:
i think first it was FIA's by that stupid rule of one set of tyres for 2 days. Of course that rule would make engineers try to do a tyre just at the limit of a safety factor
we've seen many crashes, more than other years, because of tyres


I agree that if FIA didnt create this stupid rule to begin with we wouldnt of had this happen today and I disagree that they should of added a chicane just to keep Michelin runners happy.

They didnt allow Minardi to run a 2004 modded car in Melb soo it would of been silly on there part if they didnt deliver the same today. What if it was just one team that had the problem would all of the 9 teams agreeed to put a chicane just to help one team?

As someone that actually been to afew races I really feel for the fans that went to the track to watch the race, they would of spent alot of money to fly from their country just to watch the race only to see their team out.



But why the hell all those drivers chickened out and didn't go out to race???
their fuckin ego is too big and they could not be seen driving slow???

old racing drivers were real men, not the pussies we have these days!! :|

Wat u on about? Thats just dumb. The Drivers didnt chicken out, they were more than happy to race to risk there lives. But the boss of the team makes the orders/rules/laws not the drivers.

If your boss told u that u cant do a certain job due to it being unsafe would you still do it? :roll:

In the old days line is just overused when someone doesnt like something and like to whine about something. The old racing drivers wouldnt even race these days cause they wouldnt be fit enough!!

Enough with blaming the Drivers. The fault lies with the Big Boss's of the sport not the drivers.

[jakaracman]

old racing drivers were real men, not the pussies we have these days!! :|
I agree 100%

[Anonymous]

old racing drivers were real men, not the pussies we have these days!! :|

In the olden days they did not have prior notice that a tyre will most likely fail propelling them into a wall at high speed :roll:

[SFDMALEX]

Ferrari haters are making me sick!


How is it Ferraris fault? How in the fuck is it Ferraris fault?

Ferrari agreed to anything proposed by FIA! THEY NEVER WENT AGAINST THE CHICANE! ITS UP TO FIA!

What do you want now? For Ferrari to go against FIA cause some fucking Michelin dicks arent doing their job right?

Sue Ferrari? For fucking what? For at least trying to put on a show for the people that did stay for tha race? :fist: WELL FUCK YOU, YOU AND FUCK YOU TOO! You call your self fans?


Why do the Bridgstone runners have to suffer because of others mistakes? THey came preped and they have the RIGHT TO RACE. Thats what all the drivers interviewd said! DC and Trulli and others.


FUCK THE DICKS THAT DIDNT RACE! Button had a big grin on his mug after he steped out of the car, he didnt give two shits about the fans!

If they cared for the FANS THEY WOULD HAVE RACED! SLOWLY!


POLITICAL WAR? AGAINST WHAT?

WTF WAS FIA TO DO? I hate them FIA dicks, and me as a Ferrari fan been affected by bullshit tire rule this entire season! Otherwise Ferrari would be whooping ass all over again, 2002 style!

But what were they to do? Chicane? Chicane my ass.....Schumi Should have demended a couple of those chicanes in Spain cause his tire would blow up and he could possibly crash and die :lol: HEY EVERYBODY, PROBLEMS WITH TYRES????? MICHELIN TIRES FOR SALE! 5.99 A POP, LETS BUILD A CHICANE SO YOUR TIRES DONT BLOW UP :mrgreen:


BOTTOM LINE -FIA IS TO BLAME FOR THE TIRE RULE
Ive stated numerous times that the tyre rule is dangerous! I said way back during Imola.

BUT IN NO WAY IS FIA TO BLAME FOR ENFORCING RULES

[irrational_i]

I agree with the bulk of posts here.
I do not believe that anyone made a "mistake" as such. The 7 teams where within their rights to withdraw cars on safety reasons. This merely means the Michelins where not up to scratch and brought inferior equipment.

They were not. They have to run, because TV and spectator paid for that. They had other options (cahnging tires, driving slowly through T13), but chose to be asses.
.

Please don't misquote me.
This was my next sentence, in context, which says exactly what you are saying

"""
They could, of course, have competed with a self-imposed speed limit, but they neatly decided to make a political statement (and not waste money?).
"""

Something else...
Someone asked why they didn't stop the race because of too few cars.
The other cars did, in fact, form on the grid and completed the formation lap. Thus the rule about minimum cars on the grid was not broken.
I assume there is some rule in the "concord agreement" (I find that name very amusing. In how many languages can you say "agreement"! :) ) that forces them to appear on the grid.
Its obvious that the 7 teams very carefully did not want to break any rules to give the FIA ammunition.
Ferrari has done the same since the infamous Austria incident, but people still hit out at them blindly...

[666fast]

Whole damn thing was a farce. Since I've basically stopped caring about F1, I find it mildly amusing that F1 hit an all time low with today's shenanigans.

Seems to me, it's all on Michelins shoulders. Thier inability to provide a tire is what caused all the nonsense.
On the other hand, had they gone out knowing they were running a compromised setup, not only would they not have a chance in hell in winning, but someone could end up seriously hurt or dead.

Michelin made the right move, it's in their own interest that their product isn't what causes an accident or death.

The FIA wasn't left with much of a choice. In the interest of the fans, they should have put the chicane in. But, they shouldn't have to bend the rules due to someone elses incompetence.

[HeilSvenska]

Wow...I've never been so conflicted in my life.
I'd hate to be one of the people who went to see the race, especially since i am a McLaren/Red Bull fan.


FUCK THE DICKS THAT DIDNT RACE! Button had a big grin on his mug after he steped out of the car, he didnt give two shits about the fans!

Fans? Fans? When did F1 ever care about fans? F1 is not NASCAR. But then again, it really sucks


What do you want now? For Ferrari to go against FIA cause some fucking Michelin dicks arent doing their job right?

True, but Michelin is hardly some fucking dicks. They did win all the races leading up to this one.

FIA will should repeal its new (now not so new) tire rule, or at lease modify it like the 2-qualifying farce they already took back.

This can't be good for still-waning popularity of F1 in the United States.

[Max Power]

Max Power wrote:
I figure this race could be cancelled out from the championship, plus ppl are gonna sue F1, Indy, Ferrari, everybody for millions...I still can't understand why michelin teams didn't run...there were plenty of options other than the absolute worst one...morons


cancelled in what aspect??
sue Ferrari, for what exactly?? and the same goes for FIA, what would the case look like "we the dumb retards want to sue FIA for standing by their rules"?? lets use a little common sense here. if anyone is to be used its Michelin and the Michelin drivers, they get paid millions to race and put their life on the line.


man, stfu...it was a sarcastic remark in that ppl sue everything and everybody :roll:

[sentra_dude]

To everyone who is blaming the drivers of the Michelin teams, you do know that its not the driver's choice to race right? As the former Benetton mechanic explained, the drivers are on contract with the teams...to follow team orders. The drivers work for the teams, they are not out there on their own and allowed to do whatever the fuck they want! All of those driver's know they are replaceable, and what would doing 4-5 laps against team orders accomplish? Nothing, it would only add to the chaos. They are employees just like anyone else, if they don't do what their boss says, they'll get fired just like anyone else!

David Coultard was interviewed, and he said if it was up to him he would have raced, even with penalties and such, and no points for the Michelin teams! They are racecar drivers, of course they want to race, and don't bring up anymore bullshit about "back in the good-old days"...because that's crap. You think because it was the 1960s they would have disregarded their team owner's orders...maybe if they were idiots and felt like being fired, but otherwise no!


TAKE THE US GP OFF FOR 2006

the US f1 fans do not deserve to have one.
they put 6 drivers lives @ risk.
this is a shame. one of the lowest levels in GP history

in other news
great day for minardi :D

Well, considering that someone who actually went to the race said only 40% of the people there were American...I bet some of those assholes throwing stuff on the track were Euro-trash or Canadian. :roll:

I'm sure fans in countries where people regularly riot because their soccer team didn't win would not do anything stupid if their entire GP was ruined...

[Toronto]

sorry I didn't know you can die of a high speed crash due to a tire blow out because of a beer can in soccer :roll:

[Max Power]

what happens to the points of 7th and 8th place...ferrari's site is showing Trulli with 2pts and Kimi with 1...yet F1.com is showing nothing

[666fast]

sorry I didn't know you can die of a high speed crash due to a tire blow out because of a beer can in soccer :roll:

But people have been killed during soccer riots. All because one team lost.

Whats really stupid is that you think American Fans don't deserve an F1 race. If I was there, I'd be damn pissed as well.

How many people waited months and bought tickets with their hard earned money only to see this mess?

I'm sure you've walked out of a movie, pissed that you spent $10 to see it. Pocket change compared to a GP event, especailyl when you consider the thousands that payed for a hotel and travel expenses.. I know someone there right now, drove all the way there, as he does every year. I can't wait to hear what he has to say.

[bmagni]

I guess this has a plot behind this, something to do againts the FIA and/or Bernie. I really hate Bernie, and if its against him I'm glad they did it.
For the fans it must have sucked, really bad. But they don't have enough power to change the teams decisions, and lets face it, it was in the US, so in the end. I dont think the teams really care, leave that for NASCAR ;) JK
And well, Ferrari, why o why you people trash them ?!?!?!?! they had nothing to do with it, as many other members have said here, why if Ferrari would have been the ones with the problem ??? You would still trash them

[SFDMALEX]

What irritates me are the fans that booed during the podium ceremony. Dont care what nationality they are Its the saddest thing I saw, booing the guys that actually went out and put on a show. And actually pushed(Schumi and Rubens were going at it flat out),,,,,,

[bmagni]

What irritates me are the fans that booed during the podium ceremony. Dont care what nationality they are Its the saddest thing I saw, booing the guys that actually went out and put on a show. And actually pushed(Schumi and Rubens were going at it flat out),,,,,,

yeah, totally right, what did they have to do with it, why did people throw cans at them ??? they should applaude them for at least running the race... assholes.

[Toronto]

I can't believe some people are defending the fans behavior?
I would of been pissed (who wouldn't) I wouldn't throw anything on the track risking the lives of an inoccent people, who did nothing wrong and are doing their jobs.

the drivers are not at fault why blame them?

only 40% (I am sure that number is wrong) of the people that went to the race are american?
then why even have a race in a place where people don't care for the sport?

all that anger should go towards the people that caused the problem. go tell the french to fuck off, throw stuff @ them (I am sure americans would love to do that!)

[SL55 AMG]

USGP :cry: I have gone for the past 3 years, luckily not this year, and I am sorry for the fans who attended this year. It was a great race event to see in person but I really feel for those who showed up in the stands this year as F1 has finally gotten attention in America. I think it is ridiculous that nothing was conjured up to allow the michelin drivers to race. The FIA and the team managers knew of this problem, why didn't they put the chicane in on Saturday with qualifying and not think about it an hour before the race. I know its not as easy as it sound but this has to be one of the lowest points in all of motorsport. All i can say is GOOD LUCK Bernie and FIA in F1's Future or Lack There Of.

[graywolf624]

First off, they shouldnt be putting in a chicane on the weekend of the race. Thats even more dangerous then running on suspected tires as it has to pass homogolizations and tests to see if its safe.

2nd) The teams had the option to run and change tires but face penalties, the fault for not running today lies with them and michilin.

Ive stated before the tire change rule should not exist because of its safety implications.. But.... if the rule is truly enforced and has been enforced to groups like ferraris detriment already this season... Then changing the course or allowing the tire change for michilin would have been wrong. Putting the rule in place in the first place is the fias fault, but the problem on the day lies entirely with Michilin.

[zondaland]

This will not kill F1. This will not even prevent F1 from going back to the brickyard next year unless Tony George wants to spend an enormous amount of money to get out of the contract that he has.

As far as the teams not running its all just a load of political B.S. They could have run through the last corner at a much reduced speed, or they could have replaced the rear left tyre every 9 or 10 laps. They only pulled out to try to gain more power for the teams and to put more power behind the GPWC.

The biggest question in my mind is now what will Ron Dennis and Mclaren feel like if they lose the championship by two points. They would have been the fastest Michelin runner today if they had all run, as such they would have grabbed two points. In a champioship of this sort that could prove decisive at the end of the year.

[sikx5]

Well summed up graywolf. I agree with you. Putting in a chicane sounds all simple, but the cars settings must need to be changed, the drivers must adapt to the new corners, its not all so simple.

This tyre rule should be scrapped....

[5vz-fe]

USGP :cry: I have gone for the past 3 years, luckily not this year, and I am sorry for the fans who attended this year. It was a great race event to see in person but I really feel for those who showed up in the stands this year as F1 has finally gotten attention in America. I think it is ridiculous that nothing was conjured up to allow the michelin drivers to race. The FIA and the team managers knew of this problem, why didn't they put the chicane in on Saturday with qualifying and not think about it an hour before the race. I know its not as easy as it sound but this has to be one of the lowest points in all of motorsport. All i can say is GOOD LUCK Bernie and FIA in F1's Future or Lack There Of.

That is becoz Michelin believes that it is only a particular incident with Toyota and that their tires are ok for other teams. Or at least that's what they hope to see, but when the result came back to them on Sunday morning, it is clear that their tires will have a problem ....

[666fast]

only 40% (I am sure that number is wrong) of the people that went to the race are american?
then why even have a race in a place where people don't care for the sport?

If the seats get filled, who cares where they come from? Money is still made.

all that anger should go towards the people that caused the problem. go tell the french to fuck off, throw stuff @ them (I am sure americans would love to do that!)

:roll:

[kksh]

Michelin runners wanted to put on a show for all those fans. Even if they don't any points. Why didn't FIA let them do that? cos it'll make Ferrari look worse taking all the points. The race was conceded by the Michelin runners. Why can't they let them put on a show for all the fans?

They were right to retire. All the drivers were racers and no amount of "slow down to this speed at turn 13" will stop them from doing it if you have another guy right behind you. So it was the right decision to retire.

The FIA should act in the best interest of the Teams, Drivers and Fans. If they can't do that, what good are they? And about bending the rules, who started the 2003 Brazillian GP under a safety car just cos Bridgestone runners didn't bring full wets? Oh.... they were concerned about driver safety they say. How about now? They couldn't care less if it weren't their golden boy ferrari. With all these stupid rules of the FIA, GPWC can't come soon enough for me. The 2008 rule proposals are a joke. They want to make F1 become Indy car. I watch F1 cos it's the pinacle of motor racing technology. Even if one guy or team is dominating, it's awesome to see what they do with the technology. One suggestion Max, why not have everyone race go karts to level the playing field and make racing closer?

About the fan's behavior, call me a savage but I'd throw a glass bottle instead of those plastic bottle. Enough said.

[oantob]

I think FIA should return the ticket money, the fans come to indy to see the race with their fav team, not just 6 cars. Maybe FIA should know that if the race can only be done by less then half the number of cars, the race should be delayed or canceled. thats if the FIA use their brains...
it is the worst F1 race ever... :x

[nismodave]

I was at the race........I had never been to an F1 race..........$200 for 2 tickets in turn one............My Fathers day/Birthday gift for my Dad...........We had AMAZING SEATS AND THE WEATHER WAS PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!

I am so pissed , I will never watch a F1 race again. And I LOVED f1.

When people the section over threw things on the track ( BTW it only happened less than 6 times) People pointed them out and they were arrested. We cheered when they were taken away.

When the Ferraris were booed I told everyone in my section to STOP!! I explained its not their fault. They are doing THEIR JOB.

I CHEERED FOR THE WINNERS.............They deserved it.......

I told everyone I talked to if you are mad at F1 and the teams that did not compete.........Hit them where it hurts......The pocketbook............Dont watch F1,,,,,,,Dont go to the races :x

[sentra_dude]

sorry I didn't know you can die of a high speed crash due to a tire blow out because of a beer can in soccer :roll:

Do you think that European fans would have been more well behaved, you think that none of the fans at a race in any other country would have done anything at all? All I'm saying is, its unfair to say America doesn't deserve to have a GP just because of a few stupid asshole fans who may or may not have even been all Americans!

Also, let me make this clear; I'm in no way defending those stupid idiots for throwing shit on the track. I never said that, and never meant that. What I was trying to say was; Americans wouldn't be the only people to act in that way...and a few idiots shouldn't be the reason the GP doesn't come back next year.

I can't believe some people are defending the fans behavior?
I would of been pissed (who wouldn't) I wouldn't throw anything on the track risking the lives of an inoccent people, who did nothing wrong and are doing their jobs.

the drivers are not at fault why blame them?

only 40% (I am sure that number is wrong) of the people that went to the race are american?
then why even have a race in a place where people don't care for the sport?

all that anger should go towards the people that caused the problem. go tell the french to fuck off, throw stuff @ them (I am sure americans would love to do that!)



Well i was at the race, and the cars are a lot louder than i anticipated. Americans won't think twice about what happened at indy because it seemed like only about 40% of the spectators were American which obviously shows most Americans wouldn't care if this happened. But the booing was deffinately evident and even the Ferrari fans were booing Shumacher. But i really think they should have ran in the race even if they didn't complete it. If they ran the cars slower around the track but finished it they would have recieved points, but the only upside i can think of for them not running it is they wouldn't be putting as many miles on their "2 races only" engines as the cars that did run.

Either way this is my first F1 race and it was exciting to see the technology at work instead going to a car show and seeing a paper weight. I'm bringing ear plugs next time :D .

EDIT: People in the U.S. don't care about Formula One, it's sad. :(

[5vz-fe]

I was at the race........I had never been to an F1 race..........$200 for 2 tickets in turn one............My Fathers day/Birthday gift for my Dad...........We had AMAZING SEATS AND THE WEATHER WAS PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!

I am so pissed , I will never watch a F1 race again. And I LOVED f1.

When people the section over threw things on the track ( BTW it only happened less than 6 times) People pointed them out and they were arrested. We cheered when they were taken away.

When the Ferraris were booed I told everyone in my section to STOP!! I explained its not their fault. They are doing THEIR JOB.

I CHEERED FOR THE WINNERS.............They deserved it.......

I told everyone I talked to if you are mad at F1 and the teams that did not compete.........Hit them where it hurts......The pocketbook............Dont watch F1,,,,,,,Dont go to the races :x

I am sorry about ur misfortune, I can see how pissed one would be going into a weekend expecting it to be great and it turns totally soar. Thanks for giving us some insiders news.

I can't wait to see what's on the F1-News pages tomorrow, and what action will be followed up. Well, at least the misfortune today made the competition much tighter. Kimi and Michael are only spearated by a few points and Ferrari is the same points as Mclaren. If Bridgestone pulled their act together and get better performance in qualifying, Ferrari can still set the record straight.

Planetf1 already put Ferrari in the losers column....I have a feeling more Ferrari bashing are still to come <sigh>....not good not good

[saadie]

ferrari is the lowest team in my book fer now on ........ and it was all because of schumi ..... he showed it all by running into his own team mate fer a top finish .. lame ass :?

[yg60m]

Fucking Michelin! This is horrible.

Michelin fucked up, and FIA didnt do anything wrong, nothing could have been done. Michelin should have another tire as by the rules in case the one they race has problems.


Bridgestone teams have the full right to race because they got everything right, they came in prepared, they should not suffer because of Michelin.


And I say the Michelin teams are full of fucking shit! THey can easily slow down for T13, it can be done, theres a pedal for slowing down, its called a brake!

I would say fucking FIA and Ferrai, all the teams were agree to race with a chicane even if they wouldn't get any points excepted Ferrari .....
It was just a question of safety ... As FIA boss remind some weeks ago :wink:

you would say fuck Ferrari and FIA, cause your not thinking realistically. i say fuck you and all the other Ferrari haters cause it seems all you guys know how to do is point fingers and talk out your ass.


about the trash throwers, typical AMERICAN behavior. PURE WHITE TRASH.

(DISCLAIMER) LMAO
i hope no one takes anything i said personal as i wasnt trying to offend anyone. i just cant stand it how some of you only see things one way. when something like this happens, you have to put your self in the shoes of everyone involved and take it from there. to just point fingers is plain old stupidity, which is what everyone in F1 is doing at this very moment.

Lot of "fuck" in this thread :roll: If you want to fuck me you will have to come to France Ronin ... :|

[5vz-fe]

^Don't take it too emotionally Yann.......I am sure Ronin dont' mean it. It is a tough day for all of us F1 lovers. We still love u =) (not enough for a "fuck" tho)

[sameerrao]

ferrari is the lowest team in my book fer now on ........ and it was all because of schumi ..... he showed it all by running into his own team mate fer a top finish .. lame ass :?

He didnt run into his teammate - it wasnt even that close - the angle of the TV shot is misleading - it makes the incident look a lot closer than it really was. I saw it on another shot and there was quite a gap.

Besides Michael stayed on the inside throughout on entry to the corner. Rubens braked too late and had to go grass-cutting :)

And please dont blame Ferrari for the mess - Michelin screwed up and paid for it. They tried emotional blackmail but it didnt work. They will go to the next race with a more conservative second tire.

AND FOR HEAVENS SAKE, EVERYONE CALM DOWN ... no need to get mad and insult other JWites. Emotions are understandably high but name calling is not the way to do it. Post later when you all had time to digest the pain :)

Listen to what Michael and Rubens had to say
Q: (Curt Cavin - Indianapolis Star) I understand that you did not make the decision but can you tell my why Ferrari was not in favour of having a chicane put in at the last minute?
MS: I tell you one story, not so long ago. In Monza we had the death of a marshal and all of us drivers agreed we would want yellow flags for the first two chicanes, and there was no less than two or three team owners that told their drivers ‘you will not respect the yellow flag, just ignore what you have said or not said, we want you to race and we force you to race’ and it is the same people who have been on the other side today. So, Formula One is a tough business, we are working very hard and as I mentioned before we had a tyre that was quicker but we didn’t use it because we knew what was going to face us here. I am not saying the others purposefully chose something wrong, but whatever it is, it is their problem, not our problem. I don’t think you can ask the people who are not responsible for it to take the responsibility.


Q: Michael and Rubens, I only want to know if it's true that this morning you agreed with the other drivers that a chicane was needed.
MS: No, we didn't agree on anything like this. It is not our position to agree, it's the FIA's position to agree on this, not us.
RB: I mean, if I had changed one of the corners in Bahrain, my tire would have finished, it wouldn't be in such a problem and I probably would have finished even on the podium. So why would we have to agree to that? People think, okay, you put in a chicane, but we haven't tested with that chicane so that could have been even more dangerous. If you take a different line and people spin to the other side, crash into the side wall, how can we do it? It's silly.

[jakaracman]

Michelin runners wanted to put on a show for all those fans. Even if they don't any points. Why didn't FIA let them do that? cos it'll make Ferrari look worse taking all the points. The race was conceded by the Michelin runners. Why can't they let them put on a show for all the fans?

They were right to retire. All the drivers were racers and no amount of "slow down to this speed at turn 13" will stop them from doing it if you have another guy right behind you. So it was the right decision to retire.

The FIA should act in the best interest of the Teams, Drivers and Fans. If they can't do that, what good are they? And about bending the rules, who started the 2003 Brazillian GP under a safety car just cos Bridgestone runners didn't bring full wets? Oh.... they were concerned about driver safety they say. How about now? They couldn't care less if it weren't their golden boy ferrari. With all these stupid rules of the FIA, GPWC can't come soon enough for me. The 2008 rule proposals are a joke. They want to make F1 become Indy car. I watch F1 cos it's the pinacle of motor racing technology. Even if one guy or team is dominating, it's awesome to see what they do with the technology. One suggestion Max, why not have everyone race go karts to level the playing field and make racing closer?

About the fan's behavior, call me a savage but I'd throw a glass bottle instead of those plastic bottle. Enough said.
Try to understand this: they could race, they had 3 options (use different tire and get penalised, drive slower in T13, change tires every few laps). BUt why did Michelin demant the cihichane? It's easy: they knew that there's be a controversy about it, people would blame Ferrari an FIA for not allowing it and conveniently forget that it was Michelin's inadequacy at producing safe tires (I hope their street tires are not deadly) that caused all that. It was just a PR excercise at the cost of the fans.
I hope they get sued so hard that the company goes bancrupt. Nobody will miss the loosers ...

[yg60m]

I am not sure about the fact Michelin proposing a chicane to put the blame on FIA/ Ferrari, possible but I doubt ... And what would have been the race if the Michelin's boys had to slow down in T3 ?? : the same as yesterday, Ferraris with a strong lead and the others 3 laps behind so not a big difference with yesterday's race ...

Of course Michelin did a mistake but I think that all we could saw was another episode of the war between FIA and Manufacturers ... :?
And do you remember 1994 ? FIA put chicanes everywhere because of safety, they didn't had any trouble doing that in the name of safety at the time ...

[dingo]

Not much to add as its all been covered in the 9 pages so far, but some of you really are acting as stupid as people involved in F1. :roll:

Take a bit of a break to cool down and come back later..... :wink:

.....What I was trying to say was; Americans wouldn't be the only people to act in that way........

I agree with you, it can be seen all over the world by all nationalities. The Aussie fans sometimes throw stuff on the field during cricket matches, as do Indians and so on. :wink:

[SPEEDKILLAR]

Yes, Minardi in the points 8)

[JoeHahn]

How can you possibly engineer a chicane in time for the race - when the announcement that Michelin weren't going to run was made a day before? The Chicane could have been more dangerous than the original circuit under certain circumstances. I guess you have to lay the blame initially on the FIA for making a rule (I think is stupid) in which the tyres have to last a whole race. But ultimately it is Michelin's fault for not designing/arriving with a suitable tyre for the track. Michelin clearly over-stepped their boundaries. Like Schumacher said - Bridgestone could have brought a tyre that was faster but less durable, so they didnt and Michelin obviously did.

[jenkF1]

At the end of the day theres one clear thing we can take away from this incident-

Formula 1 is tearing apart, Ferrari and the FIA vs The Rest

and if this carries on I think we will see GPWC sooner than you think.

:x :x :x :x :x

[saadie]

At the end of the day theres one clear thing we can take away from this incident-
Formula 1 is tearing apart, Ferrari and the FIA vs The Rest
and if this carries on I think we will see GPWC sooner than you think.
:x :x :x :x :x
ou are soo right ......
well i guess we''ll only be seeing changes after we get a new FIA director

[ZfrkS62]

THis may have been mentioned before, but as they were saying on Speed, Indy got resurfaced this year just prior to the irl test. It was done so poorly that they had bring a grinder in to smooth out the track. However that was not done well enough either and 2 hours into the irl test, the session was cancelled. The nascar test scheduled after that was also rescheduled until another grinder could come in and complete the job.

It is possible that Firestone (irl's supplier) knew about what was happening on the banked turns with the tires and forwarded the information to Bridgestone so that they could get started on developing their tire for indy.

Now i'm also wondering if they failed to check the infield road course with the grinder or did a sub par job with it like they did with the rest of the oval, which is why the michelins were having trouble making the transition.

Whatever the cause, what we saw yesterday was just plain bullshit. this is not a Ferrari/FIA conspiracy, this is just bernie and max being stubborn jackasses. This whole thing has probably sealed the fate of F1 being a part of the FIA. thier refusal to budge on the tire rule has been source 1 of most of the tension and dissatisfaction of everyone in the paddock and in the stands. I would be extremely surprised if there wasn't a vote to remove bernie from his position and also force max to step aside.

[RC45]

Finally - proof that FIA what really stands for... Ferrari's Inside Ally.

Not that we haven't seen this kind of Ferrari-sided decision before - just think back to all the class rule changes made by the FIA since 1964 at least, that have allowed Ferrari to recover from some disadvantage, not by designing a better car, but by having the competition's car outlawed by a rule change because they beat Ferrari in a season.

Formula One, Sports Car, Sports Prototype etc etc.. ;)

So no surprise here.

Problem: Tyres and track safety.

Solution: Change the track and postpone the race by 6 hours allowing the teams to do some test laps - then fine Michelin $10 Million for bad practices and call it a day.

This should have been treated no differently than if a 10 inch rainstorm showed up and delayed everything for 6 hours.

*shrug*

F1 wanted to get into the cash rich US market - pity they won't be asked to come back again... ;)

[disclaimer] I couldn't be bothered to read the preceding 9 pages before I posted... :P

[|Nuno|]

Rubens and Ghini's comments:


Rubens Barrichello has hit back at claims that Ferrari should take some of the blame for the United States Grand Prix fiasco because the team were alone in refusing to back calls for a chicane to be built prior to the final corner.

Although every team other than Ferrari agreed on Sunday morning that a chicane should be built prior to Turn 13 in a bid to lower speeds through the banked corner for the Michelin teams, the matter never got Ferrari's approval because the Italian team believed the matter was purely the responsibility of the FIA.

And although some have therefore claimed that Ferrari should take some responsibility for the turn of events, Barrichello insists that the team were innocent and he has rubbished claims that a chicane would have been any safer.

"The circumstances made it bad day for all," said the Brazilian who finished second behind Michael Schumacher. "Looking at what's happened it seems it's all Ferrari's fault, but it isn't. A lot of people didn't seem to understand that.

"Michelin was saying that putting a chicane on the oval would have allowed for safer racing, but I don't agree with that. To put a chicane for the race, without anyone practicing with it, would have been very dangerous.

"We'd be finding the braking area in the race and that could start an accident."

When asked why then, if he believed Ferrari did the right thing, was there no celebration on the podium for the team's first victory of the season, Barrichello said: "It was a race with six cars. I'm used to things like we had in Rio, with pre-qualifying and 36 cars trying to get to the race. Now to have six cars in a race is not something that can give anyone any pleasure.

"This is not the F1 we want to see. In the US F1 is not very popular and this won't make it better."

Barrichello explained, however, that the widespread controversy over the event should be put into context - especially with some people claiming it was a tragic day for Formula One.

"It was sad but not tragic," said Barrichello "Tragic was in 1994, today it's just sad."

Ferrari's head of communications Antonio Ghini also defended the Italian team, saying the chicane option was not viable.

"If the problem encountered by Michelin at Indianapolis happened to Ferrari or to Bridgestone, with the roles swapped around the world would have come down surely," he told Gazzetta dello Sport. "At best they would have told us to do the best we could.

"It's impossible and unacceptable that in F1 rules could be changed on Sunday morning, even proposing the creation of a temporary chicane in order to solve somebody's reliability problems. This way F1 becomes a farce.

"From Indianapolis it transpired with certainty that if the teams that didn't race complied to Michelin's more cautious settings, and if they limited performance, then they could have raced. But by forcing the situation in order to obtain the chicane on the banking, they engaged in an unacceptable arm wrestling match.

"Ferrari has always been legalistic, and when we've had problems with the tyres at the start of the season, we adapted to going more slowly."


'Nuff said.
__________________________________________________ ____________

And Todt's interview:


Jean Todt explains Ferrari's position
Mon 20 Jun, 1:43 PM

After Sunday's controversial United States Grand Prix at Indianapolis, Jean Todt clarified Ferrari's position in the run-up to the situation which led to 14 Michelin runners peeling off into the pits at the end of the parade lap, taking no further part in the race.
But first Todt admitted that 'I feel sorry about what happened, but I mainly feel sorry for all the supporters who were here, for the American supporters, for the TV viewers but it was not our decision.'
The reason why the Michelin runners took no part in the race was because they had unsuitable tyres on which they were recommended not to race. Compromises were sought from various sources to let the Michelin runners race, even for no points, but no solution was found.
At one point, a chicane was suggested in the quick banked corner at the end of the lap, where one of the Michelin tyre failures took place during practice. Todt explained that he was not consulted on this.

We were never involved with those discussions,' said Todt. 'Never involved. We were never asked about that. Whether we would have agreed or not is another question, and I tell you right now, to be sincere, we would not have agreed, but we were never asked about that. But is it serious to decide to put in a chicane half an hour without nobody testing it? It's ridiculous.'
Todt did say that Bernie Ecclestone had talked to him about 'different proposals, including a chicane, but again, it's a matter of the FIA, it's not a matter of the commercial rights holder (Ecclestone's position). And I said that for me it was up to the FIA to decide.'
Continuing to explain his position, Todt pointed out that 'number one, it's an FIA decision. Number two, if something happened on the other side; if, for example, we don't have enough grip for qualifying and we ask for three laps because we have good grip after the third lap, or if we ask for a chicane because we feel it would be safer for our tyres, I think everybody would laugh at us. So you just have to be prepared to react to a situation.

'You have two sets of tyres which you chose from, one normally is soft, the other one is hard and then you make your choice. I feel sorry for those who could not compete, but I feel more sorry, again, for the supporters.'
Todt then explained the disadvantages of the sudden installation of a chicane. 'If we knew beforehand that there would be a chicane, we would have come prepared for a chicane. We would come with different tyres, we would have a different set-up on the car, we would have different gear ratios.
Honestly, why should we compromise? We try to do a good job with Bridgestone, and we did not do a very good job with Bridgestone since the beginning of the year. We arrive, we are in a situation where we see from Friday that we are competitive, we don't have any problem with tyres so for us it's an opportunity.'
There was even a suggestion that the Michelin teams would compete for no points if a chicane was installed. But Todt's reply was 'would we have competed for no points? I say no. If this race would have been a race without points which cannot be, it would have been out of the FIA standard, we would not have started.'
Asked what sort of harm the boycott had done the image of Formula One, Todt replied 'very bad. I wish we could come back to the States because it's a very important country, it's now our number one market, the States, and for so many years Bernie has tried to implement something in the States. Unfortunately, it was not the best demonstration today. It has been a hard hit for Formula One today.'

Todt explained that the teams had been warned about pushing the tyre situation to the limit. 'We all got a letter two weeks ago warning us after the Monte Carlo race and after Nurburgring when Raikkonen had his problem, that we had to pay special attention to the tyres, the pressures, about all that, and it's something we thought could happen for a while.'
Asked under what circumstances he would you have been willing to race with the Michelin runners, Todt said 'I would say three options. One, they could have changed their tyres. Two, they would have to compromise in this specific corner. And three, they could have used the pit lane. If these cars cannot take this corner, what can I do? You would have had a race.'


http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/050620/13/boho.html

[RC45]

Blah blah blah... F1 is just a circus and procession anyway.

There have been MANY last minute and on-the-race day changes made in the name of safety - but only when it doesn't impact Ferrari's chance of an easy win.. :P

This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... ;)

[dingo]

This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... ;)

Great point.....the result of one race is definately enough to judge a company on (unlike the last 5 F1 world championships for example, as that means nothing). :roll:

[|Nuno|]

Blah blah blah... F1 is just a circus and procession anyway.

There have been MANY last minute and on-the-race day changes made in the name of safety - but only when it doesn't impact Ferrari's chance of an easy win.. :P

This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... ;)

If you're so disappointed with F1 then why are you still here? You can always go back to the 'Motorsport Discussion' forum and enjoy your non farced win at Le Mans, can't you? :wink:

Because I won't bother with this discussion anymore. I said what I had to say, but if you want to continue your Ferrari bashing, be my guest.

[dingo]

The famous "tall-poppy syndrome" is hard at work in here.....and its funny to watch really. :wink:

[RC45]

This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... ;)

Great point.....the result of one race is definately enough to judge a company on (unlike the last 5 F1 world championships for example, as that means nothing). :roll:

Well - those 5 world championships were simply a boring procession - week after week - FIA rule change here - FIA rule change there... procession procession procession...

Michael Schummacher as the winner - nit Ferrari - he has won what he drove... Just like Valentino Rossi... Ferrari just happen to own him is all ;)

[dingo]

This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... ;)

Great point.....the result of one race is definately enough to judge a company on (unlike the last 5 F1 world championships for example, as that means nothing). :roll:

Well - those 5 world championships were simply a boring procession - week after week - FIA rule change here - FIA rule change there... procession procession procession...

Michael Schummacher as the winner - nit Ferrari - he has won what he drove... Just like Valentino Rossi... Ferrari just happen to own him is all ;)

yes, and most of those rule changes were made to even the playing field - i.e. to slow the Ferrari's down since they were so dominant.

It wasn't that Schumi was carrying the Ferrari to victory, otherwise how do you explain Rubens finishing 2nd (or is it just a coincedence that the Ferrari's finish 1-2 and dominant the manufacturers c'ship)?

[RC45]

This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... ;)

Great point.....the result of one race is definately enough to judge a company on (unlike the last 5 F1 world championships for example, as that means nothing). :roll:

Well - those 5 world championships were simply a boring procession - week after week - FIA rule change here - FIA rule change there... procession procession procession...

Michael Schummacher as the winner - nit Ferrari - he has won what he drove... Just like Valentino Rossi... Ferrari just happen to own him is all ;)

yes, and most of those rule changes were made to even the playing field - i.e. to slow the Ferrari's down since they were so dominant.

It wasn't that Schumi was carrying the Ferrari to victory, otherwise how do you explain Rubens finishing 2nd (or is it just a coincedence that the Ferrari's finish 1-2 and dominant the manufacturers c'ship)?

Easily explained - rules set to favour Ferrari.

You must be blind Tifosi not to see it, even years ago when I was a rabid Ferrari fan, it bothered me how historicaly the FIA makes rules changes based on the need to keep ferrari competitive.

Know why the GT40 stopped racing?
Know why the 917 stopped racing?
Know why the 956 stopped racing?
Know why the 962 stopped racing?

Because the rules were changed to allow the Ferrrais that were beaten to remain competitive. :P

Those are just the major historical events that come to mind - the Ferrari freight train is more of a horseless carriage with the FIA clearing the way so it can stay ahead.. ;) :P

[Toronto]

All the drivers didn't want to drive on the track.

RC I would do see how when schumi hit JV (by accident), and lost all his points in the season, thus losing the season and the championship. helped ferrari

as for your le mans rant... who won after the new rules :roll:

[pharzo]

Finally - proof that FIA what really stands for... Ferrari's Inside Ally.

Not that we haven't seen this kind of Ferrari-sided decision before - just think back to all the class rule changes made by the FIA since 1964 at least, that have allowed Ferrari to recover from some disadvantage, not by designing a better car, but by having the competition's car outlawed by a rule change because they beat Ferrari in a season.

Formula One, Sports Car, Sports Prototype etc etc.. ;)

So no surprise here.

Problem: Tyres and track safety.

Solution: Change the track and postpone the race by 6 hours allowing the teams to do some test laps - then fine Michelin $10 Million for bad practices and call it a day.

This should have been treated no differently than if a 10 inch rainstorm showed up and delayed everything for 6 hours.

*shrug*

F1 wanted to get into the cash rich US market - pity they won't be asked to come back again... ;)

[disclaimer] I couldn't be bothered to read the preceding 9 pages before I posted... :P


This is completely different from a rainstorm because rain would have affected everyone....Michelin fucked up big time, and then they ask the FIA to _change the track_????


If Ferrari had ever brought the wrong tires to the race and asked for a track reconfiguration,, there is no way people would support them.


Michelin messed up on this one, FIA rules are clear on this. Bring one compound with which you can go fast but maybe isn't completely reliable, and bring one that is absolutely reliable. Michelin didn't do this. The FIA cannot have allowed them to force a change in the track, because that just not the way and sporting event works. The teams could have been smart about this and just pressed the left pedal a little before T13, but no...."The other people have better tyres, we quit!" What the hell kind of attitude is that.... F1 is a sport, not kindergarten...it's not important that everyone gets to play, it's more important that the best person/team wins

As for F1 not being asked to come back, i think this is crap. If anything the FIA won't want to come back because of the unacceptable level of behavior displayed by the "fans" attending the GP

[RC45]

All the drivers didn't want to drive on the track.

RC I would do see how when schumi hit JV (by accident), and lost all his points in the season, thus losing the season and the championship. helped ferrari

as for your le mans rant... who won after the new rules :roll:

The same old Ferrari that couldn't compete under the old unrestricted system :P

Then the other manufactures came back and won the classes again - only to have the rules chagned again ;)

There is a reason why Ferrari doesn't run a prototype car - they would never be able to pull it off - as in create a winning prototype :)

[RC45]

This is completely different from a rainstorm because rain would have affected everyone....Michelin fucked up big time, and then they ask the FIA to _change the track_???


If Ferrari had ever brought the wrong tires to the race and asked for a track reconfiguration,, there is no way people would support them.

It is EXACTLY the same as a rain storm - the FIA rules do affect everyone - especially the stupid rules regarding tyres.

There would be more manufactures providing tyres to Forumla 1 if not for silly rules in place as it is ;)

When more than half the field runs one tyre brand, then you are talking about a full field impact event.



Michelin messed up on this one, FIA rules are clear on this. Bring one compound with which you can go fast but maybe isn't completely reliable, and bring one that is absolutely reliable. Michelin didn't do this.

Trye compund is one thing - carcass construciton and failure is another. The case is not that the tyres became slick to fast - they failed. I am sure the Tifosi would have a lot to say if a Michelin tyre failed - and the werecking car took out Schumi and killed him.. :roll:


The FIA cannot have allowed them to force a change in the track, because that just not the way and sporting event works.

It can and does whe safety is concerned - adding a chicane or extending a runoff area or raising of lowering a curbstone is no different.

It is convenient for the FIA to make "strange rule calls" at one time then not another?


The teams could have been smart about this and just pressed the left pedal a little before T13, but no...."The other people have better tyres, we quit!"

Not "better" tyres - "safer" tyres - huge difference.


What the hell kind of attitude is that.... F1 is a sport, not kindergarten...

Imagine if 5 atheletes arrived at the pole vault event - and 2 major vendors/sponsors provided poles.

On the day the vendor/sponsor brings some new poles - and it seems they shatter when stressed during a vault. BUut the rules were cahnged to "only one pole per athelete per event" earllier in the year.

So - because they cannot switch to the opposing poles at this late stage, what should be done?

Lower the bar so the poles don't have to bend so much, ask the athletes to jump lower? Call off the event until better poles arrive?

As it is - the victory of the day will be a shallow victory proving nothing. Simply running towards the big cash payout of the "championship".


it's not important that everyone gets to play, it's more important that the best person/team wins

Best team? You mean favourite team. :P


As for F1 not being asked to come back, i think this is crap. If anything the FIA won't want to come back because of the unacceptable level of behavior displayed by the "fans" attending the GP
Obviously you have never really watched how the fans can and do and have behaved in Spain, Protugal, Brazil and even Italy when things don't go their way.

Motorcycle grandprixs are a great example - and even F1 events.

As has been pointed out - the few individuals were arrested and taken away.

All in all veru poor showing - and considering the FIA makes their own rules (they are not some state enforced rules) they can easily alter them on the day. As has been proven many times before.

I still say a chicane and 6 hour delay to allow for drivers to get used to it would have been the best solution.

That way EVERYONE races - it is safer, fans get to see the whole show and EVERYONE is subject to the same track change.

And if the Bridgestones are that much better they would still lap quicker than the Michelins.

[gucom]

erm just on a critical note of the way things are going at Le Mans, after reading RC45's farce blablablaaaaaaaaah....
In thr 24hours of Le Mans, the ACO (the organiser of the event) wants the GT1 cars to have a certain speed (plus minus 3minutes 55 seconds per lap). To "stimulate" this, each car that is (alot) faster than this in the 2005 race, will get a weight penalty in 2006...ít's not about making the field more even, its just about keeping the GT1 cars slow. Alot of people think that Aston and Corvette might not have raced at their maximum, to still stand a chance next year...and in doing so not getting the advantage over the other car they might've had...how's that for a farce?
i obviously wasnt involved in the team orders etc, so i dont know if this actually happened, but its not good for the sports IMO

[RC45]

erm just on a critical note of the way things are going at Le Mans, after reading RC45's farce blablablaaaaaaaaah....
In thr 24hours of Le Mans, the ACO (the organiser of the event) wants the GT1 cars to have a certain speed (plus minus 3minutes 55 seconds per lap). To "stimulate" this, each car that is (alot) faster than this in the 2005 race, will get a weight penalty in 2006...ít's not about making the field more even, its just about keeping the GT1 cars slow. Alot of people think that Aston and Corvette might not have raced at their maximum, to still stand a chance next year...and in doing so not getting the advantage over the other car they might've had...how's that for a farce?
i obviously wasnt involved in the team orders etc, so i dont know if this actually happened, but its not good for the sports IMO

But then rule penalized everyone equally - and the race took place on the day and all is well. ;)

Besides they have to do something to make sure that Ferrari can show up and have a chance of winning again this decade.. :P

[|Nuno|]

Michelin teams summoned by FIA


The FIA has ordered the seven Michelin teams to appear at a hearing of its World Motor Sport Council on Wednesday June 29 following their controversial withdrawal from the US Grand Prix.

The summons follows a statement issued by Formula One racing’s governing body earlier on Monday, in which it outlines its position on Michelin's decision to pull out of the race. The statement reads:

"Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

"At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.

"The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that "tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances".

"A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.

"The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

"What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.

"It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules."
______________________________

For the first time, I agree with the FIA.

[ZfrkS62]

If what RC was saying is true about the FIA favoring Ferrari so much, then all the Michelin teams are going to get docked constructors points over this. anything to put Ferrari on top right? :roll:

But i don't think that is going to happen. I just hope someone gets punished for this :?

[RC45]

For the first time, I agree with the FIA.

Me too! :wink: I think everything is clear now... Michelin teams didn't accept to reduce the speed in T13 (only solution according to the rules) so they decided not to race.

So it's ok for a "speed reduciton rule" to be enforced - but not a material change to improve track safety?

Please - it is a clear case of the FIA inadequately protecting the participants and the sport on the day.

Time for the F1 circus to split up and have more common sense governing and managing bodies take over. :)

The FIA and Ferrari can run a one make spec series - and the rest can go have some real racing ;)

[leo_26782]

Wouldn't it have been easier to give Michelin the authorization to run with the tyres they had brought from France, and give the car a penalty? Like that every one would have ran the race, but Michelin would have been "punished" and END OF THE STORY!

If they had told the drivers to slow down in the turn 13, do you really believe they would have done it? The safest option for Michelin was to retire before a major accident:

[|Nuno|]

For the first time, I agree with the FIA.

Me too! :wink: I think everything is clear now... Michelin teams didn't accept to reduce the speed in T13 (only solution according to the rules) so they decided not to race.

So it's ok for a "speed reduciton rule" to be enforced - but not a material change to improve track safety?

Please - it is a clear case of the FIA inadequately protecting the participants and the sport on the day.

Time for the F1 circus to split up and have more common sense governing and managing bodies take over. :)

The FIA and Ferrari can run a one make spec series - and the rest can go have some real racing ;)

Man, you're hilarious...

You complain about the FIA benefiting Ferrari with the rule changes, even when the FIA clearly states that the recent changes were to stop Ferrari (which they did this year), but then you say that they should have bended the rules yesterday to let the Michelin teams run, when they fucked up big time. Nice logic.

They did have the option to change the tyres during the race, but they refused. Hell, first they said that if they increased the pressures, everything would be fine. Why the sudden change?


Please - it is a clear case of the FIA inadequately protecting the participants and the sport on the day.

I don't like the tyre rule, but we have two tyre manufacturers.

One was able to make a durable and safe tyre, albeit slower. The other takes a different direction, going for softer compounds and constructions which weren't safe for this particular race.

Who's to blame? The FIA, or the people who couldn't deliver?

And please, don't come with the chicane argument, because you know as well as I do that it's not a valid option.


Of course that you didn't come here to complain on that ocasion, but I'll remind you that in Barcelona, Ferrari had similar problems - when a loss of pressure occurred, the sidewalls would fail (comproved by Michael's puncture). Bridgestone suggested the FIA to change the rules regarding the Safety Car, to avoid that. Guess what, both the FIA and Michelin teams said Ferrari & Bridgestone to make a better tyre. But now the tables turn, and here are you with your conspiracy theories... :P

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out why Ferrari is even brought to this subject, when clearly, they had nothing to do with it. :|


Time for the F1 circus to split up and have more common sense governing and managing bodies take over. :)

On that I agree with you.



@ leo:They (Michelin) said themselves that they didn't know if the Spain-spec tyres would work any better.

The chance to change tyres during the race was given to them, but they simply refused. That, IMO, would have been the best choice.

[5vz-fe]

LOL, RC, u just love to make this thread as long as possible don't u :wink:

[pharzo]

So it's ok for a "speed reduciton rule" to be enforced - but not a material change to improve track safety?

Please - it is a clear case of the FIA inadequately protecting the participants and the sport on the day.

No, it's a case of Michelin bringing the wrong tyres and then attempting to change the track to compensate for their choice


Micheling wrote to the FIA and said their tires would be unsafe, so it would be callous for the FIA to allow them to take T13 at full speed, since Michelin admitted that they shouldn't....

Time for the F1 circus to split up and have more common sense governing and managing bodies take over. :)



The FIA may have some problems, and some of the current rules may very well be quite dumb, the way they handled this particular event shows resolve, and I think any sporting authority would have done the same

Imagine if 5 atheletes arrived at the pole vault event - and 2 major vendors/sponsors provided poles.

On the day the vendor/sponsor brings some new poles - and it seems they shatter when stressed during a vault. BUut the rules were cahnged to "only one pole per athelete per event" earllier in the year.

So - because they cannot switch to the opposing poles at this late stage, what should be done?

Lower the bar so the poles don't have to bend so much, ask the athletes to jump lower? Call off the event until better poles arrive?

As it is - the victory of the day will be a shallow victory proving nothing. Simply running towards the big cash payout of the "championship".


And this is why the FIA specifically allows for two tire compounds to be brought to the race

[666fast]

http://web.bsu.edu/mrpeters/Stoddart_Interview.mp3

[5vz-fe]

Stoddart is a tart.......Jordon race and he race....what kinda theory is that?

On a seperate issue:

Say in the Olympic game, the 400m race, a runner with a heart condition that can only run 200m, any more and he'll have a heart attack. So, for his safety sake, he requested the officials to shorten the race distance so that he could participate. In making it fair, he's allowing the rest of the runners 10 steps ahead at the startline.

Can u imagine how ridiculous this will look?

[RC45]

Stoddart is a tart.......Jordon race and he race....what kinda theory is that?

On a seperate issue:

Say in the Olympic game, the 400m race, a runner with a heart condition that can only run 200m, any more and he'll have a heart attack. So, for his safety sake, he requested the officials to shorten the race distance so that he could participate. In making it fair, he's allowing the rest of the runners 10 steps ahead at the startline.

Can u imagine how ridiculous this will look?

Stupid example - this weekend involved over half the field of entrants being affected by one of the 2 sanctioned product suppliers.

Very different situation.

[SFDMALEX]

There is a reason why Ferrari doesn't run a prototype car - they would never be able to pull it off - as in create a winning prototype :)\

Say what? Are you saying the 333SP was a bad car? You crack me up buddy.

[SFDMALEX]

Holly shit RC, you have outdone your self, why did you even bother posting all that rubbish? Every fucking time Ferrari is good at something you find some excuse........jezz man, its just funny watching you, you try so hard.........anyway have fun :lol:


Im done in this thread :lol:

[yg60m]

BTW, Yann... your point of view is not realistic... because you're french, like Michelin! :wink:

LOL, I am french and I don't like Jean Todt very much :wink: but I appreciate JJ His which works also for Ferrari :wink:

[5vz-fe]

Stoddart is a tart.......Jordon race and he race....what kinda theory is that?

On a seperate issue:

Say in the Olympic game, the 400m race, a runner with a heart condition that can only run 200m, any more and he'll have a heart attack. So, for his safety sake, he requested the officials to shorten the race distance so that he could participate. In making it fair, he's allowing the rest of the runners 10 steps ahead at the startline.

Can u imagine how ridiculous this will look?

Stupid example - this weekend involved over half the field of entrants being affected by one of the 2 sanctioned product suppliers.

Very different situation.

Are u saying if it involve on one team, then it is OK to cut them out?

I really don't know if Brembo supply brakes to more than 1 team or not, but let's say they do. If there are some safety problem for Brembo brakes to slow down the car over 300 and there's no way for them to fly in a new batch, are u saying that FIA should ask the non-brembo cars to not go over 300 just to make it a fair race?

[RC45]

There is a reason why Ferrari doesn't run a prototype car - they would never be able to pull it off - as in create a winning prototype :)\

Say what? Are you saying the 333SP was a bad car? You crack me up buddy.

The 333 ended up where? ;) A car without a series.. :P

The rules were changed so no one could beat it - so the other manufacturers went their own way ;)

[RC45]

Stoddart is a tart.......Jordon race and he race....what kinda theory is that?

On a seperate issue:

Say in the Olympic game, the 400m race, a runner with a heart condition that can only run 200m, any more and he'll have a heart attack. So, for his safety sake, he requested the officials to shorten the race distance so that he could participate. In making it fair, he's allowing the rest of the runners 10 steps ahead at the startline.

Can u imagine how ridiculous this will look?

Stupid example - this weekend involved over half the field of entrants being affected by one of the 2 sanctioned product suppliers.

Very different situation.

Are u saying if it involve on one team, then it is OK to cut them out?

I really don't know if Brembo supply brakes to more than 1 team or not, but let's say they do. If there are some safety problem for Brembo brakes to slow down the car over 300 and there's no way for them to fly in a new batch, are u saying that FIA should ask the non-brembo cars to not go over 300 just to make it a fair race?

No - what I am saying is that Formula 1 does not operate in a void - it is a for profit enterprise (not a sport) and relies on sponsors and fans to generate ungodly sums of money.

100,000 plus people went to see a Formula 1 race - not a debacle.

What resulted was a debacle.

F1 and the FIA simply screwed the fans over - the ones who spent the $5,000 to $10,000 it takes to cart you family around the world/country to go watch an F1 race.

Hotels, flights, rental cars, tickets, concessions - these people were conned out of their money.

The prudent thing to do would have been to call the race off, give everyone a refund and send every one home.

That is what other much more financially successful franchises have done in similar situations.

But to let this fiasco continue and still pocket the money is fraud with criminal intent :)

Let's hope this F1 circus never comes back.

Bubye. :P

[SFDMALEX]

And why did all start in the first place? Because they wanted to stop Ferrari with fucking retarted tire rule. And what happens? Instead of just Ferrari suffering, everybody suffers.............weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ee



P.S I said it was my last post here few posts ago, so Ill make this one my last.

[pharzo]

No - what I am saying is that Formula 1 does not operate in a void - it is a for profit enterprise (not a sport) and relies on sponsors and fans to generate ungodly sums of money.


Well if you it's not a sport, then why did the FIA go out of their way to enforce rules. (Wow, rules....sports have rules don't they? Do enterprises ? :roll: )

100,000 plus people went to see a Formula 1 race - not a debacle.

What resulted was a debacle.

F1 and the FIA simply screwed the fans over - the ones who spent the $5,000 to $10,000 it takes to cart you family around the world/country to go watch an F1 race.

Hotels, flights, rental cars, tickets, concessions - these people were conned out of their money.


The FIA did not screw anyone over in this particular situation. Michelin did, with their poor choice of tires. And the teams that withdrew did, because of their refusal to run the race with a poor choice of equipment


The prudent thing to do would have been to call the race off, give everyone a refund and send every one home.



Yes well, the prudent thing to do isn't always the right thing to do :wink:


That is what other much more financially successful franchises have done in similar situations.


Once again, the way that would make them the most money is not necessarily the correct way

[5vz-fe]

RC:

I totally agree with u on the refunding part......coz it is a crappy weekend and that is not what ppl pay to see. However, cancelling a race would mean penalty to Bridgestone runners and they are the ones who is doing things right. So while agreeing on ur refunding idea, I would say they should still held the race, rewarding the ppl who got it right the points they deserve.

[RC45]

(Wow, rules....sports have rules don't they? Do enterprises ? :roll: )

Yes - enterprises have rules very clear rules.

Quite clearly the FIA together with Formula 1 cheated 100,000+ people out of millions of dollars.

Very poor show.

[ZfrkS62]

Hotels, flights, rental cars, tickets, concessions - these people were conned out of their money.

The prudent thing to do would have been to call the race off, give everyone a refund and send every one home.

That is what other much more financially successful franchises have done in similar situations.

But to let this fiasco continue and still pocket the money is fraud with criminal intent


Only if there is evidence that this was planned out in advance :wink: and seeing as how the FIA got Michelin's letter at 5AM doesn't exactly constitute fraud :wink:

The respectful thing to do would be to refund the tickets and conssecions.

But i have a feeling we'll be hearing about lawsuits before too long. This was the wrong country to have something like this happen :wink:

[graywolf624]

Not to point out the obvious paul, but your confusing f1 the commercial enterprise with the group that made the call.. the fia.. a non-profit organization.

f1 and racing are a sport... The fia is at fault for creating the potential, but the f1 teams and michilin are ultimately the ones who caused the incident. No fans will win lawsuits, as there are no real legal grounds, but if I were f1 I would consider a refund to help there image.

[nismodave]

Someone owes me a REFUND!!!!

$210 for 2 tickets.

FIA or IMS or Michelen.

I know the French (FIA,Michelen) hate the USA (and vice-versa) but Damn, I didnt think they would do something like this to screw up our race. :x

[gucom]

Besides they have to do something to make sure that Ferrari can show up and have a chance of winning again this decade..

yeah right...that must be why the Ferraris were driving with extra weight htis year...costing them an estimated 1.5 seconds a lap...

and @ nismodave, after the Le Mans 24hours, ive heard the American anthem about 50 times or so, so i dont think they hate you that much :P
But i do kinda agree about the refund, you payed and came to see a race, not 2 ferraris driving circles around the others...

[pharzo]

Not to point out the obvious paul, but your confusing f1 the commercial enterprise with the group that made the call.. the fia.. a non-profit organization.

f1 and racing are a sport... The fia is at fault for creating the potential, but the f1 teams and michilin are ultimately the ones who caused the incident. No fans will win lawsuits, as there are no real legal grounds, but if I were f1 I would consider a refund to help there image.

ummm....paul?

[graywolf624]

paul=rc45

[antonioledesma]

watch out wolf... I didn't know RC's name until now. Maybe he doesn't like to have his name posted
just my 0.1 cents, remember the rules

back with the topic... I'd say that it was a rip-off. I watched the resume some minutes ago. I don't liked the audience behaviour
I didn't like FIA resolution
it was a crappy race, even when MS and RB gave some show.

michelin had a lot of fault, they provided very soft tyres, and bridgestone used wisely the info that their sister part gave them
what a dissapointment :|

[graywolf624]

Wasn't meant in that way... Im sure if he doesn't like it I can remove it. Not like I gave his full information or he hasnt written his first name here before in about 50 different posts. Hell not like I haven't either.

(feel free to refer to me as Dennis.. You can find more then one post where Ive signed as such).

[antonioledesma]

ok, sorry if I told something wrong
I was just remembering sometime when Dan edited a someone's post because they wrote the big guy's name,

[graywolf624]

The official rule says dont release personal information.. technically I havent revealed cause rc has signed his first name here more then once as have I. My guess is as long as it doesn't bother rc which Im sure it doesn't its kinda like pushing the letter rather then the spirit of the rule. If the mods want too, fine Ill obey but my guess is they wont take issue. The rule was afterall to defend people on the boards privacy, not to deal with regular conversation.

[antonioledesma]

ok, case closed...
but don't :slap: me :(
:wink: :mrgreen:

[graywolf624]

But I need someone to slap.. :P Im just so frustrated about f1...

[RC45]

Yep Ronn Dennis and I, Paul McCartney go back quite ways.. ;)

[Toronto]

OK lets keep this thread clean
this is to talk about the F1 2005 US GP
not how much I hate ferrari, or le mans history, or french hating
all that can go here
http://www.jabbasworld.net/viewforum.php?f=67

no for the rest of this thread, please talk about the RACE that happened
amazing day for minardi and jordan. and who had the fastest lap :D

[antonioledesma]

nah! if we open a thread about how much we hate ferrari, you will lock it :P

So... conclusions???

a dissapointing, very very, race. I'd had voted for a race delay. indy fans have that habit of waiting days and days for the indy to be raced on tuesday becuase of the rain
michelin had the wrong tyre, they didn't expect that indy would be so hard on their tyres

ferrari did what they had to do: see for themselves. After all it's a competition and if you're unable to participate, go to the public stands.

the michelin teams decided not to run, to have a more political way out, than seeing their cars lapped several times, or being penalized by running with a different set of tyres

[sentra_dude]

OK lets keep this thread clean
this is to talk about the F1 2005 US GP
not how much I hate ferrari, or le mans history, or french hating
all that can go here
http://www.jabbasworld.net/viewforum.php?f=67

no for the rest of this thread, please talk about the RACE that happened
amazing day for minardi and jordan. and who had the fastest lap :D

Yes, a great day for the Minardi boys! :P I was semi-hoping that the Ferrari's would crash into each other...like they almost did haha. And some how one of the Minardis managed to be faster than the Jordans...and they made it to 1st place! :D :P Wouldn't that have been great, a freakin Minardi, with their tiny tiny budget winning a GP! :D

[antonioledesma]

that would be great considering the big budget, ie, jaguar had and they didn't do a thing in all those years at F1 or williams this last times :mrgreen:

[5vz-fe]

Because of this USGP chaos, Minardi is 7 points ahead of BAR. Don't know what stoddart is bitching about.

[SafirXP]

well.. the full blame goes to FIA... the rule changes they've made means you either have ultra tough tyres or you blow'em in the race and might probably pay your life for it. the teams that pulled out did the right thing. ferrari, jordan & minardi did the right thing too. they had tyres that were fine to run 100 laps.

this race made a mockery of the FIA rules... and without those 3 teams participating it wouldn't have been such a big mock! :D

i do feel sorry for the spectators... eventhough i'd be okay with seeing only a single F1 car doing some laps! :)

[RC45]

Well - in case you needed proof F1 is doomed - look at what a cockass shitface Bernie is when he shows his true colours...


F1 boss likens Danica to 'domestic appliance'
Story Tools: Print Email
FOXSports.com
Posted: 1 day ago



Danica Patrick has surged onto the open-wheel racing world, but that might not be sitting well with the old-school boss of Formula One racing.

Formula One is getting its most high-profile United States presence with the U.S. Grand Prix at Indianapolis Motor Speedway this weekend, but Formula One chief Bernie Ecclestone doesn't seem to be too crazy about Patrick joining her male competitors on the track, despite her recent Indy 500 success.
"She did a good job, didn't she? Super. Didn't think she'd be able to make it like that," Ecclestone told a gathering of reporters about Patrick's Indy 500 finish.

"You know, I've got one of these wonderful ideas that women should be all dressed in white like all the other domestic appliances," Ecclestone added.

Ecclestone has controlled Formula One for 25 years, amassing a fortune estimated at $3.7 billion. He has a holding company which operates some of F1's commercial ventures, ranging from television rights to sponsorships.

But nine of the F1's 10 teams are in dispute with Eccletone and others over the running of the sport and have threatened to start their own series in 2008. Only Ferrari has signed to stay with Ecclestone after the 2007 season.


http://msn.foxsports.com/motor/story/3701634

You know what - fuck Formula 1 and the management that is driving into the ground.

:fist:

[bmagni]

Well - in case you needed proof F1 is doomed - look at what a cockass shitface Bernie is when he shows his true colours...


F1 boss likens Danica to 'domestic appliance'
Story Tools: Print Email
FOXSports.com
Posted: 1 day ago



Danica Patrick has surged onto the open-wheel racing world, but that might not be sitting well with the old-school boss of Formula One racing.

Formula One is getting its most high-profile United States presence with the U.S. Grand Prix at Indianapolis Motor Speedway this weekend, but Formula One chief Bernie Ecclestone doesn't seem to be too crazy about Patrick joining her male competitors on the track, despite her recent Indy 500 success.
"She did a good job, didn't she? Super. Didn't think she'd be able to make it like that," Ecclestone told a gathering of reporters about Patrick's Indy 500 finish.

"You know, I've got one of these wonderful ideas that women should be all dressed in white like all the other domestic appliances," Ecclestone added.

Ecclestone has controlled Formula One for 25 years, amassing a fortune estimated at $3.7 billion. He has a holding company which operates some of F1's commercial ventures, ranging from television rights to sponsorships.

But nine of the F1's 10 teams are in dispute with Eccletone and others over the running of the sport and have threatened to start their own series in 2008. Only Ferrari has signed to stay with Ecclestone after the 2007 season.


http://msn.foxsports.com/motor/story/3701634

You know what - fuck Formula 1 and the management that is driving into the ground.

:fist:

WTF is wrong with this guy ?!?! Hes a total jackass
Hes all just about the money, hes gonna get F1 broke...
Werent Ferrari, McLaren n Williams planning to make a new F1 series ?

[nejcdolinsek]

Wow.... 12 pages of nonsense.

I think this thread deserves a prize :roll:

And BTW, I thought what Bernie said about women has got to be the quote of the month! AHHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Braden Head]

As a Formula 1 freak I can only say that my stomach dropped to the ground after getting up at 03:00am to watch the other teams go into the pits. I feel totaly sorry for the fans that went to the track and that they are compensated in the future. FIA is the only organisation that the anger can be focust on as they could have awarded a points system or modified the track to accomodate a race worthy of putting the lights out for. thanks Mark.

SFDMALEX - I have got to say that the picture you have posted has some of the best ever cars in it.

[SFDMALEX]

SFDMALEX - I have got to say that the picture you have posted has some of the best ever cars in it.

www.fiagt.com :wink:

[bmagni]

Finally - proof that FIA what really stands for... Ferrari's Inside Ally.

Not that we haven't seen this kind of Ferrari-sided decision before - just think back to all the class rule changes made by the FIA since 1964 at least, that have allowed Ferrari to recover from some disadvantage, not by designing a better car, but by having the competition's car outlawed by a rule change because they beat Ferrari in a season.

Formula One, Sports Car, Sports Prototype etc etc.. ;)

So no surprise here.

Problem: Tyres and track safety.

Solution: Change the track and postpone the race by 6 hours allowing the teams to do some test laps - then fine Michelin $10 Million for bad practices and call it a day.

This should have been treated no differently than if a 10 inch rainstorm showed up and delayed everything for 6 hours.

*shrug*

F1 wanted to get into the cash rich US market - pity they won't be asked to come back again... ;)

[disclaimer] I couldn't be bothered to read the preceding 9 pages before I posted... :P

if FIA was favoring Ferrari, why did Ferrari go 20 years without winning a drivers championship?? and 15 years without winning a constructors championship??

thats one hell of a way of favoring a team.

21 to be precise, i was gonna say the same thing, but theyll find another excuse to keep arguing...

[antonioledesma]

20-21 years... what does it REALLY matter??? :wink:

I believe FIA protects ferrari as the same way you can do it with your oldest "customer" in a bussiness and he hepls you. It isn't that wrong, but it can be seen as a bad thing

[ZfrkS62]

As a Formula 1 freak I can only say that my stomach dropped to the ground after getting up at 03:00am to watch the other teams go into the pits. I feel totaly sorry for the fans that went to the track and that they are compensated in the future. FIA is the only organisation that the anger can be focust on as they could have awarded a points system or modified the track to accomodate a race worthy of putting the lights out for. thanks Mark.

SFDMALEX - I have got to say that the picture you have posted has some of the best ever cars in it.

all the Michelin teams are facing a $16M fine for the chaos. Most of that money will probably go to the IMS for compensation for ticket refunds. Last i heard there were 6 lawsuits and one class action suit filed against formula one management for the disgrace of a showing on Sunday.

Apparently the FIA has a $16M fine for any team that fails to put 2 cars on the track for a race. BAR was fined for both races they missed while they were banned for the fuel tank issue.

[5vz-fe]

16 millions is quite a bit even in F1 terms, I am sure stoddart is glad that he run at the race now.

[TransAm]

all the Michelin teams are facing a $16M fine for the chaos. Most of that money will probably go to the IMS for compensation for ticket refunds. Last i heard there were 6 lawsuits and one class action suit filed against formula one management for the disgrace of a showing on Sunday.

Apparently the FIA has a $16M fine for any team that fails to put 2 cars on the track for a race. BAR was fined for both races they missed while they were banned for the fuel tank issue.

Hang on a minute, am I missing something here? Technically, the teams did field their cars for the race but then retired at the end of lap 1, as I understand it? :?

I'm not disputing your post, Zfrk, I'm just a bit confused!

[bmagni]

if FIA was favoring Ferrari, why did Ferrari go 20 years without winning a drivers championship?? and 15 years without winning a constructors championship??

thats one hell of a way of favoring a team.

21 to be precise, i was gonna say the same thing, but theyll find another excuse to keep arguing...

20 years, in 1979 Jody Scheckter won it and then 2000 Michael Schumacher. the year that they won doesnt count.

depends on the point of view, actually 21 years passed until they won, 20 seasons without winning ;)

[graywolf624]

Hang on a minute, am I missing something here? Technically, the teams did field their cars for the race but then retired at the end of lap 1, as I understand it?

I'm not disputing your post, Zfrk, I'm just a bit confused!
Im not sure that parade lap counts as the race, thats probably where the question lies.

[TransAm]

Thanks for the clarification Ronin :wink:

[bmagni]

if FIA was favoring Ferrari, why did Ferrari go 20 years without winning a drivers championship?? and 15 years without winning a constructors championship??

thats one hell of a way of favoring a team.

21 to be precise, i was gonna say the same thing, but theyll find another excuse to keep arguing...

20 years, in 1979 Jody Scheckter won it and then 2000 Michael Schumacher. the year that they won doesnt count.

depends on the point of view, actually 21 years passed until they won, 20 seasons without winning ;)

they won in 1979 and then they won in 2000, thats 20 years from 1980 to 1999 with no championship.

from the end of the 1979 championship to the end of the 2000 championship is 21 years.

[ZfrkS62]

all the Michelin teams are facing a $16M fine for the chaos. Most of that money will probably go to the IMS for compensation for ticket refunds. Last i heard there were 6 lawsuits and one class action suit filed against formula one management for the disgrace of a showing on Sunday.

Apparently the FIA has a $16M fine for any team that fails to put 2 cars on the track for a race. BAR was fined for both races they missed while they were banned for the fuel tank issue.

Hang on a minute, am I missing something here? Technically, the teams did field their cars for the race but then retired at the end of lap 1, as I understand it? :?

I'm not disputing your post, Zfrk, I'm just a bit confused!

I believe the issue is lying in the fact that they pulled the cars from the race before the completion of the 1st lap. technically, they did not even complete the parade lap. However, there could be a boycott in france and should that happen, then the teams who do not show up WILL be nailed for $16M each. And at this point it is once again Michelin that is causing this.

Not sure of the details on it, or why they would boycott the next race, I think it may be because of the fact the race was allowed to run, but it's looking like the season is fucked either way :(

I'm going to try and find out a little more. Sorry for the confusion but i'm hearing this from one of my coworkers wh frequents the F1 news sites.

[RC45]

Finally - proof that FIA what really stands for... Ferrari's Inside Ally.

Not that we haven't seen this kind of Ferrari-sided decision before - just think back to all the class rule changes made by the FIA since 1964 at least, that have allowed Ferrari to recover from some disadvantage, not by designing a better car, but by having the competition's car outlawed by a rule change because they beat Ferrari in a season.

Formula One, Sports Car, Sports Prototype etc etc.. ;)

So no surprise here.

Problem: Tyres and track safety.

Solution: Change the track and postpone the race by 6 hours allowing the teams to do some test laps - then fine Michelin $10 Million for bad practices and call it a day.

This should have been treated no differently than if a 10 inch rainstorm showed up and delayed everything for 6 hours.

*shrug*

F1 wanted to get into the cash rich US market - pity they won't be asked to come back again... ;)

[disclaimer] I couldn't be bothered to read the preceding 9 pages before I posted... :P

if FIA was favoring Ferrari, why did Ferrari go 20 years without winning a drivers championship?? and 15 years without winning a constructors championship??

thats one hell of a way of favoring a team.

21 to be precise, i was gonna say the same thing, but theyll find another excuse to keep arguing...

20 years, in 1979 Jody Scheckter won it and then 2000 Michael Schumacher. the year that they won doesnt count.

Look at what else Ferrari was involved in over that 20 year period :) The FIA favours them everywhere they governe the "sport" ;)

[antonioledesma]

:roll: this is just like the discussion of when the 21st century began. If in 2000 or 2001.

and it began 2001.

and I'm with ronin

[ZfrkS62]

here's the article outlining what is going on. seems i was a bit off. i guess it's not 16mil each. collectively it's 16 mil :oops:

From speedtv.com


A report from French news agency AFP reveals that the FIA could order the seven Michelin-shod Formula 1 squads that boycotted last week's United States Grand Prix to pay a collective fine of circa $16 million, destined to refund the paying customers who attended the event at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

F1's governing body has scheduled a World Motor Sport Council hearing for June 29, in which the teams - Renault, McLaren-Mercedes, Toyota, Williams-BMW, BAR-Honda, Sauber and Red Bull - will have to answer to accusations of disrespecting articles 151c and 131 of the FIA's International Sporting Code (click here for story).

Yet since sanctions similar to the two-race ban applied to BAR-Honda after it ran illegal cars at the San Marino GP would in effect render the 2005 championship unviable - a repeat of the six-cars-only USGP grid is certainly the last thing on the FIA's mind - the possibility of financial punishment looks increasingly likely.

"I think Michelin and the seven teams should compensate the fans," FIA president Max Mosley has been quoted as saying.

F1 action resumes with tire testing...

The main characters of the USGP fiasco - tires - are again the center of attention as F1's squads go back to work this week.

Ironically, the Bridgestone and Michelin teams again won't go head-to-head, as Ferrari will be the sole conductor of testing for the Japanese marque at Barcelona beginning today (Tuesday) before being joined by Jordan on Thursday, while all Michelin teams bar Red Bull are expected to start working at the Jerez circuit, also in Spain, on Wednesday.

The French tiremaker has already stated that it won't be evaluating the Indy tire to assess the causes for its product's several failures at IMS, choosing instead to focus on finding the appropriate compound for the next race of the 2005 championship, the French GP on July 3.


http://speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/17736/


F1 may return to Indy next year


Considering the Indianapolis Motor Speedway’s huge clout on the local economy, IMS president Joie Chitwood admitted to the Indianapolis Star that the United States Grand Prix might as well return to the facility next year, despite last week’s fiasco caused by the boycotting of the race by Formula 1’s seven Michelin-shod teams.

"[This decision] is going to affect a lot of people. It's important that we understand our role in this and make some good decisions," Chitwood said of the possibilities for a 2006 USGP at Indy. It is estimated that the race generates revenues upward of $100 million for local businesses.

As it faces the inevitable fan claims for refunds, the Speedway has erected a banner above the entrance of its administration office with the phrase, “We are disappointed too.” According to the Star, three lawsuits have already been filed by fans holding the FIA, Michelin and IMS accountable for not producing the type of event advertised.


http://speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/17734/

Michelin teams face stiff charges


The seven Michelin teams summoned by the FIA for boycotting the USGP at Indy will face serious charges when they appear at a World Motor Sport Council hearing on June 29 to justify their acts. Formula 1’s governing body has made public on its website the contents of the correspondence sent to the squads - Renault, McLaren-Mercedes, Toyota, Williams-BMW, BAR-Honda, Sauber and Red Bull - leaving little doubt of how deep the FIA intends to go with the matter.

The letter asks the outfits’ principals to attend the hearing - “in which you may be assisted by the counsel of your choice” - to “answer charges that you have committed one or more acts prejudicial to the interests of a competition, namely the 2005 United States Grand Prix, and/or to the interests of motor sport generally,” as defined by Article 151c of the FIA’s International Sporting Code.

The “prejudicial acts” listed are:

“-failed to ensure that you had a supply of suitable tires for the race and/or
-wrongfully refused to allow your cars to start the race and/or
-wrongfully refused to allow your cars to race, subject to a speed restriction in one corner which was safe for such tires as they had available and/or
-combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula 1 by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race and failed to notify the stewards of your intention not to race, in breach of Article 131 of the FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations.”

The mentioned article mandates that the starting grid will be published four hours prior to the start of a race, and that competitors willing to withdraw from the competition must inform race stewards “no later than 45 minutes” before the start of the race.

The letter wraps up notifying that a full dossier detailing the charges will be sent to the teams “within 48 hours.”


http://speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/17731/

The circus music quickly changes to the Imperial March :twisted:

[bmagni]

if FIA was favoring Ferrari, why did Ferrari go 20 years without winning a drivers championship?? and 15 years without winning a constructors championship??

thats one hell of a way of favoring a team.

21 to be precise, i was gonna say the same thing, but theyll find another excuse to keep arguing...

20 years, in 1979 Jody Scheckter won it and then 2000 Michael Schumacher. the year that they won doesnt count.

depends on the point of view, actually 21 years passed until they won, 20 seasons without winning ;)

they won in 1979 and then they won in 2000, thats 20 years from 1980 to 1999 with no championship.

from the end of the 1979 championship to the end of the 2000 championship is 21 years.

they won in 79 and 00, so you shouldnt be counting them.

guess we all have our own way of doing things.

i get you way of counting, your counting the seasons, as winning 79 and 2000, yeah thats "20 years" withot winning the championship, thats not the real time.
im actually counting from the day they won the championship in 79 to the day they won in 2000. Jody Sheckter won the championship in sept 9th 1979 and Schumacher in oct 8th 2000, thats 21 years and 29 days that took em to win another championship.

[graywolf624]

The letter to the teams demanding their presence:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1962994930__21_06_2005_wmsc_letters.pdf

[RC45]

The letter to the teams demanding their presence:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1962994930__21_06_2005_wmsc_letters.pdf

Hey - that looks like the same form letter the UN sent to Saddam a number of years back.

Let's hope this is the beginning of the end of these archaic governing bodies and the birth of something that actually has the best interest of the "sport", owners and fans at heart. :) :P

[ZfrkS62]

WTF ZfrkS62, you fucked with my math from one of my previous points, have you no dignity??


When you associate with me, dignity has NOTHING to do with it :wink: :lol: (figure out where i stole that and get a cookie :P )

[mindgam3]

Haven't read through all 13 pages but my opinion is this:

It was almost certainly michelins fault - they should have provided a good enough tyre.

However, for the sake of the fans, something should have been done to get all 20 cars racing, whether this meant running it as a non championship event or have a chicane put in; something should have been done.

This farce wouldn't have looked half as bad if all 20 cars ran. This should have been resolved by the FIA and the teams the night before, not trying to 20 minutes before the race.

As I understand it Ferrari were the only team not letting them put a chicane in - which ok is fair enough, they have done nothing wrong. But the consequences that have arisen from 20 cars not running are a hell of a lot more serious.

When a championship point can mean millions more much needed money for Jordan and Minardi, even they were in favour of the chicane.

Also, the teams HAD to pull. If michelin gives multi billion dollar companies a statement saying it would be unsafe to run this grand prix then there's NOTHING you can do about it, you have to not run.

A single tyre company would not solve this problem..... the possibility would be that all 20 cars would retire.

At the end of the day its fucking ridiculous, and ultimately michelins fault. The michelin teams can't be blamed and i don't see why they should be fined. What happens if a team ran out of engines for a race and could not start, would they be fined then? The FIA should have done something to get 20 cars racing on sunday though: the blame for billions of angry fans lies soley with the FIA.

[SFDMALEX]

/\/\/\You have to understand that putting a chicane would be impossible. The chicane would have to go through a load of safety testing inspections etc...A week just to do that :|

Only thing was to limit the speed through that corner which FIA offered to organize somehow, and the teams refused *shrug*

If you ask me nothing could have really been done, and what happend that weekend was the best thing they could do. Better 6 then none.

Comes down to Michelin and FIA for making the stupid one tire rule...

[yg60m]

/\/\/\You have to understand that putting a chicane would be impossible. The chicane would have to go through a load of safety testing inspections etc...A week just to do that :|

Only thing was to limit the speed through that corner which FIA offered to organize somehow, and the teams refused *shrug*

If you ask me nothing could have really been done, and what happend that weekend was the best thing they could do. Better 6 then none.

Comes down to Michelin and FIA for making the stupid one tire rule...

Finally some reasonable words :lol: :wink: and I am now entirely agree with you SFD :P

[RC45]

You are all wrong!!!.

They should have given every team some wore out tyres from the previous weeks race, dialed in some really crappy suspension settings pulled the barriers down and discarded the infield - and send the teams out on the full oval and changed the race toa D1GP drifting formula event.. :mrgreen:

At least the ricers would be happy... :P

[ZfrkS62]

You are all wrong!!!.

They should have given every team some wore out tyres from the previous weeks race, dialed in some really crappy suspension settings pulled the barriers down and discarded the infield - and send the teams out on the full oval and changed the race toa D1GP drifting formula event.. :mrgreen:

At least the ricers would be happy... :P

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think that's actually the smartest solution i've heard all week :lol: :lol:

[graywolf624]

One thing Ive been wondering, did the one tire rule even make a difference. Michilin didnt have a tire period that could make it more then 10 laps. They probably would have let them change every 10 laps for safety reasons without penalty but thats 7 stops. The second set of michilin tires failed integrity too. Even without the rule did michilin even have a tire that could make it on the track?

[mindgam3]

/\/\/\You have to understand that putting a chicane would be impossible. The chicane would have to go through a load of safety testing inspections etc...A week just to do that :|

Only thing was to limit the speed through that corner which FIA offered to organize somehow, and the teams refused *shrug*

If you ask me nothing could have really been done, and what happend that weekend was the best thing they could do. Better 6 then none.

Comes down to Michelin and FIA for making the stupid one tire rule...

It wouldn't have been impossible otherwise they wouldnt have discussed it and had a vote on it. They had at least a whole day after michelin wrote to the teams.

The FIA suggested limiting michelin runners; the speed differential between michelin and bridgstone runners would be highly unsafe.

Fining the teams is just an act of insanity: how can you fine someone for acting on the grounds of safety? :?

[graywolf624]

The FIA suggested limiting michelin runners; the speed differential between michelin and bridgstone runners would be highly unsafe.
As opposed to the differences between say ferrari and jordan to begin with? I have to call bullshit, sorry.

max responds:
THE UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX
QUESTIONS TO MAX MOSLEY
22.06.2005

What about the American fans who travelled long distances and spent a lot of money to see a race with only 6 cars?
My personal view, and it is only my personal view, is that Michelin should offer to compensate the fans on a fair basis and ask the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to coordinate this. Then Tony George and Bernie Ecclestone should jointly announce that the US Grand Prix will take place at Indianapolis in 2006 and that anyone who had a ticket this year would be entitled to the same ticket free-of-charge next year. But I emphasise, that’s just my personal view.

Should you not have just forgotten about the rules and put on a show for the fans?
You cannot do that if you wish to remain a sport. Formula One is a sport which entertains. It is not entertainment disguised as sport. But even more importantly Formula One is a dangerous activity and it would be most unwise to make fundamental changes to a circuit without following tried and tested procedures. What happened was bad, but it can be put right. This is not true of a fatality.

Why did you refuse the request of some of the teams to install a chicane?
The decision was taken (quite rightly in my view) by the FIA officials on the spot and notified to the teams on the Saturday evening. I did not learn about it until Sunday morning European time. They refused the chicane because it would have been unfair, against the rules and potentially dangerous.

Why unfair?
Because modern Formula One cars are specially prepared for each circuit. To change radically a circuit like Indianapolis, which has very particular characteristics, would be a big disadvantage to the teams which had brought correct equipment to the event.

Is this why Ferrari objected?
No, Ferrari had nothing whatever to do with the decision. They were never consulted. Ferrari, Jordan and Minardi, as the Bridgestone teams, were not involved.

Why would a chicane have been unfair, it would have been the same for everyone?
No. The best analogy I can give is a downhill ski race. Suppose half the competitors at a downhill race arrive with short slalom skis instead of long downhill skis and tell the organiser to change the course because it would be dangerous to attempt the downhill with their short skis. They would be told to ski down more slowly. To make the competitors with the correct skis run a completely different course to suit those with the wrong skis would be contrary to basic sporting fairness.

Never mind about ski-ing, what about Formula One?
OK, but it’s the same from a purely motor racing point of view. Suppose some time in the future we have five teams with engines from major car companies and seven independent teams with engines from a commercial engine builder (as in the past). Imagine the seven independent teams all have an oil surge problem in Turn 13 due to a basic design fault in their engines. They would simply be told to drop their revs or slow down. There would be no question of a chicane.

All right, but why against the rules, surely you can change a circuit for safety reasons?
There was no safety issue with the circuit. The problem was some teams had brought the wrong tyres. It would be like making all the athletes in a 100m sprint run barefoot because some had forgotten their shoes.

How can you say a chicane would be “potentially dangerous” when most of the teams wanted it for safety reasons?
A chicane would completely change the nature of the circuit. It would involve an extra session of very heavy braking on each lap, for which the cars had not been prepared. The circuit would also not have been inspected and homologated with all the simulations and calculations which modern procedures require. Suppose there had been a fatal accident – how could we have justified such a breach of our fundamental safety procedures to an American court?

But it’s what the teams wanted.
It’s what some of the teams wanted because they thought it might suit their tyres. They wanted it because they knew they could not run at full speed on the proper circuit. We cannot break our own rules just because some of the teams want us to.

Why did the FIA stop the teams using a different tyre flown in specially from France?
It is completely untrue that we stopped them. We told them they could use the tyre, but that the stewards would undoubtedly penalise them to ensure they gained no advantage from breaking the rules by using a high-performance short-life tyre just for qualifying. We also had to make sure this did not set a precedent. However the question became academic, because Michelin apparently withdrew the tyre after trying it on a test rig.

Michelin were allowed to bring two types of tyre – why did they not have a back-up available?
You would have to ask Michelin. Tyre companies usually bring an on-the-limit race tyre and a more conservative back-up which, although slower, is there to provide a safety net if there are problems.

Is it true that you wrote to both tyre companies asking them to make sure their tyres were safe?
Yes, we wrote on 1 June and both replied positively. The letter was prompted by incidents in various races in addition to rumours of problems in private testing.

So, having refused to install a chicane, what did the FIA suggest the Michelin teams should do?
We offered them three possibilities. First, to use the type of tyre they qualified on but with the option to change the troublesome left rear whenever necessary. Tyre changes are allowed under current rules provided they are for genuine safety reasons, which would clearly have been the case here. Secondly, to use a different tyre – but this became academic when Michelin withdrew it as already explained. Thirdly, to run at reduced speed through Turn 13, as Michelin had requested.

How can you expect a racing driver to run at reduced speed through a corner?
They do it all the time and that is exactly what Michelin requested. If they have a puncture they reduce their speed until they can change a wheel; if they have a brake problem they adjust their driving to overcome it. They also adjust their speed and driving technique to preserve tyres and brakes when their fuel load is heavy. Choosing the correct speed is a fundamental skill for a racing driver.

But that would have been unfair, surely some would have gone through the corner faster than others?
No, Michelin wanted their cars slowed in Turn 13. They could have given their teams a maximum speed. We offered to set up a speed trap and show a black and orange flag to any Michelin driver exceeding the speed limit. He would then have had to call in the pits – effectively a drive-through penalty.

How would a driver know what speed he was doing?
His team would tell him before the race the maximum revs he could run in a given gear in Turn 13. Some might even have been able to give their driver an automatic speed limiter like they use in the pit lane.

But would this be real racing?
It would make no difference to the race between the Michelin cars. Obviously the Bridgestone cars would have had an advantage, but this would have been as a direct result of having the correct tyres for the circuit on which everyone had previously agreed to race.

Did the Michelin teams have any other way of running the race if the circuit itself was unchanged?
Yes, they could have used the pit lane on each lap. The pit lane is part of the circuit. This would have avoided Turn 13 altogether. It is difficult to understand why none of them did this, because 7th and 8th places were certainly available, plus others if any of the six Bridgestone runners did not finish. There were points available which might change the outcome of the World Championship.

But that would have looked very strange – could you call that a race?
It would seem strange, but it would absolutely have been a race for the 14 cars concerned. And they would all have been at full speed for most of each lap. That would have been a show for the fans, certainly infinitely better than what happened.

Did not Michelin tell them quite simply not to race at all?
No. Michelin said speed must be reduced in Turn 13. They were apparently not worried about the rest of the circuit and certainly not about the pit lane, where a speed limit applies. If the instruction had been not to race at all, there would have been no point in asking for a chicane.

Didn’t the Michelin teams offer to run for no points?
I believe so, but why should the Bridgestone teams suddenly find they had gone all the way to America to run in a non-Championship race? It would be like saying there could be no medals in the Olympic rowing because some countries had brought the wrong boats.

What about running the race with the chicane but with points only for the Bridgestone teams?
This would start to enter the world of the circus, but even then the race would have been open to the same criticisms on grounds of fairness and safety as a Championship race run with a chicane. It would have been unfair on Bridgestone teams to finish behind Michelin teams on a circuit which had been specially adapted to suit the Michelin low-speed tyres to the detriment of Bridgestone’s high-speed tyres, and the circuit would no longer have met the rules.

Have you ordered Michelin to produce details of all recent tyre failures as reported on a website?
We cannot order Michelin to do anything. We have no contractual relationship with them. Their relationship is with the teams. However, we have an excellent understanding with both tyre companies and with many of the teams’ other suppliers. We find they always help us with technical information when we ask them.

Wouldn’t Formula One be better if one body were responsible for the commercial side as well as the sport?
No, this is precisely what the competition law authorities in many parts of the world seek to avoid. It is not acceptable to them that the international governing body should have the right both to sanction and to promote. This would potentially enable it to further its own financial interests to the detriment of competitors and organisers. Apart from the legal aspect there would be an obvious and very undesirable conflict of interest if a body charged with administering a dangerous sport had to consider the financial consequences of a decision taken for safety reasons.. You can be responsible for the sport or for the money, but not both.

Didn’t this entire problem arise because new regulations require one set of tyres to last for qualifying and the race?
No. The tyre companies have no difficulty making tyres last. The difficult bit is making a fast tyre last. There is always a compromise between speed and reliability. There have been one or two cases this season of too much speed and not enough reliability. Indianapolis was the most recent and worst example.

Finally, what’s going to happen on June 29 in Paris?
We will listen carefully to what the teams have to say. There are two sides to every story and the seven teams must have a full opportunity to tell theirs. The atmosphere will be calm and polite. The World Motor Sport Council members come from all over the world and will undoubtedly take a decision that is fair and balanced.


I might not like the man, but I have to agree with him here.

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/220605-01.html

[ZfrkS62]

Quote:
The FIA suggested limiting michelin runners; the speed differential between michelin and bridgstone runners would be highly unsafe.

As opposed to the differences between say ferrari and jordan to begin with? I have to call bullshit, sorry.


whats the difference with only 6 cars compared to the full field? Jordan and Minardi are that slow all the time anyway :?

[graywolf624]

whats the difference with only 6 cars compared to the full field? Jordan and Minardi are that slow all the time anyway

That was my point, every race theres 2 rolling chicanes.. How would a few more matter?

[SFDMALEX]

What can I say, Max got it spot on for once.


And Paul Stoddart is a fucking dick! Read his press release, little bitch likes to twist words, hate on Ferrari and the whole shebang....

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/050622131809.shtml

[RC45]

Latest press release....

http://www.rallystuff.com/images/michletter.jpg

[SPEEDKILLAR]

LMAO :lol: :lol: :lol: pneusless :roll: :lol:

[ZfrkS62]

ROFLMFAO!!!! RC that was brilliant :lol:

[ZfrkS62]

whats the difference with only 6 cars compared to the full field? Jordan and Minardi are that slow all the time anyway

That was my point, every race theres 2 rolling chicanes.. How would a few more matter?

Because the front runners are used to Jordan and Minardi dodging, no matter what the track. The Yellow and Black rolling chicanes don't require testing the way a perma chicane does. And doing that just hours before the race would have made things just as dangerous.

If someone were to miss the braking zone for the chicane coming up on another car, you get the possibility for a very, very nasty wreck :| Remember what happened to Coulthard at Monaco last year when Sato's engine whited out the water front and Fisichella launched off the back of his McLaren? I'm thinking that same scenario would have been played out at least once during the USGP had that chicane been put there :|

[mindgam3]

whats the difference with only 6 cars compared to the full field? Jordan and Minardi are that slow all the time anyway

That was my point, every race theres 2 rolling chicanes.. How would a few more matter?

The difference between top speeds of the front and back of the grid is about 15mph.

The difference in speeds when considering michelin runners going through turn 13 at their reduced speed is about 70-90mph....

[RC45]

Remember what happened to Coulthard at Monaco last year when Sato's engine whited out the water front and Fisichella launched off the back of his McLaren? I'm thinking that same scenario would have been played out at least once during the USGP had that chicane been put there :|

That would play to NASCAR fan's appeal - thereby broadening the appeal of F1 and ultimately increasing revenues.

Once again F1 missed a great marketing opportuniy. :)

[graywolf624]

Because the front runners are used to Jordan and Minardi dodging, no matter what the track. The Yellow and Black rolling chicanes don't require testing the way a perma chicane does. And doing that just hours before the race would have made things just as dangerous.

If someone were to miss the braking zone for the chicane coming up on another car, you get the possibility for a very, very nasty wreck Remember what happened to Coulthard at Monaco last year when Sato's engine whited out the water front and Fisichella launched off the back of his McLaren? I'm thinking that same scenario would have been played out at least once during the USGP had that chicane been put there

Your still missing it... Im saying if the michelin guys just drove at reduced speed.

The difference in speeds when considering michelin runners going through turn 13 at their reduced speed is about 70-90mph....
I missed where they gave an acceptable speed. Not to mention what about those that slow down for tire issues, for instance kimi a few weeks ago?

[ZfrkS62]

Remember what happened to Coulthard at Monaco last year when Sato's engine whited out the water front and Fisichella launched off the back of his McLaren? I'm thinking that same scenario would have been played out at least once during the USGP had that chicane been put there :|

That would play to NASCAR fan's appeal - thereby broadening the appeal of F1 and ultimately increasing revenues.

Once again F1 missed a great marketing opportuniy. :)

one problem with that. The chances of an F1 driver getting killed in that mele are a hell of a lot higher than a nascar "driver" getting killed since nascar guys are completely surrounded.

[zondaland]

To answer Gray the new tyre rules did have an effect, I am not an expert on the manufacture of tyres but my understanding is that making the tyres more durable placed more stress on the sidewalls. At one point they did admit that they had forgotten to make one calculation. As far as driving slowly through a corner where exactly can they resume normal racing, where must they reduce their pace? Also I can't see the F1 drivers in the middle of a fierce baattle paying too much credence to the restriction, I'm thinking that they would have been pushing the limits of what they were supposedly allowed to do. And pushing beyonf those limits.

[jakaracman]

The difference in speeds when considering michelin runners going through turn 13 at their reduced speed is about 70-90mph....
Wrong.
If you'd wnat the forces to be lowered by 30% (wihich would be more than enough, a a tire engineer has expalined to me even 10% would be enough), you'd need to reduce speed by 30 mph (and for 10% 10mph). Any driver that cannot work at a relative speed of 30 mph should not be driving ...

[graywolf624]

To answer Gray the new tyre rules did have an effect, I am not an expert on the manufacture of tyres but my understanding is that making the tyres more durable placed more stress on the sidewalls. At one point they did admit that they had forgotten to make one calculation.
Except according to michilin it wasnt related to calculations. It was a material defect that caused binding issues, not tread wear(which is where durability comes in). It was related to the heat in the glue of the tires and not the tread wear itself. If you want a more definitive answer I might be able to give you one when I get back from florida. The guy Im visiting works at a tire plant and is an engineer.

Also I can't see the F1 drivers in the middle of a fierce baattle paying too much credence to the restriction, I'm thinking that they would have been pushing the limits of what they were supposedly allowed to do. And pushing beyonf those limits.
If the fia instituted penalties for violations Im sure they would.