Autocar 7th of June 2005: BMW M5 beats the Ferrari F430

[Sir_GT]

www.autocar.co.uk

Buy the issue and read it. This is why the M5 has a two year waiting list in the UK.

[RC45]

In which categories exactly?

Sounds like a lot of Jeremy Clarkson style bollocks and hyperbole.

[SilviaEvo]

^^agreed no scan or anything???? and i wouldnt count on just a magazine to tell me which one is better.

[dingo]

They are not even in the same category - so I wouldn't be making a choice between them anyway. :?

[5vz-fe]

Definitely not straight line............nor conering ...............prolly not breaking too.

But M5 can beat in # passengers, driving range, comfort ...and have proper trunk.

[skituner]

wow thats a very intesting conclusion
i cant wait to read it

[oantob]

autocar always making a one sided opinion...thats why I usually don't easily belive what the Autocar said

[SFDMALEX]

LOL! I dont see it beating it in any category, the F430 acclerets like an F40, and it definetly corners better then the damn sedan......sounds like RC said, some JC bullshit.

[Sir_GT]

You guys haven't even read it yet.

Apparently, the F430 couldn't shake the M5 when the roads got twisty, and the M5 destroyed the F430 in a straight line.

[RC45]

Again - in what catagories... :P

"couldn't shake the car behind" is a long way from "the car behind was out performing me".

Just because I can hustle and muslce my car through the bends up the back bumper and arse of an Enzo wouldn't mean I "beat" it - since by definition I couldn't get past... :)

Hahaha - yet more "BMW is king" tripe... ;)

[SFDMALEX]

M5 destroyed the F430 in a straight line.

Couldnt care less what they write, 'cause I frankly I couldnt give a shit when they get an M5 to "destroy" and F430 in straight line.

Not buying that magazine thats for sure :lol:

[dingo]

.....and the M5 destroyed the F430 in a straight line.

they must be giving the M5 a head start then. :?

From the figures I have seen the F430 does the 1/4 mile in about 11.8sec and the 0-130mph sprint in ~13sec. The Beemer on the otherhand takes about 12.8s and 15.6s for the same tests - so you tell me who destroys who in a straight line. :wink:

[5vz-fe]

You guys haven't even read it yet.

Apparently, the F430 couldn't shake the M5 when the roads got twisty, and the M5 destroyed the F430 in a straight line.

There something that everyone knows before reading the article....physics.

[ae86_16v]

^ Hahahahaha. . . should be interesting to see what they wrote though.

[Sir_GT]

I'm scanning the article right now, and I'll upload them in a minute... you guys decide.

I've said this before in another thread: 4 door saloon matching/beating a supercar? Now THAT is progress for you.

[dingo]

I'm scanning the article right now, and I'll upload them in a minute... you guys decide.

I've said this before in another thread: 4 door saloon matching/beating a supercar? Now THAT is progress for you.

it is progress - but because a 4-door saloon now has similar performance to a supercar, not beating!
As my numbers posted above show the M5 is more than 2sec slower to 130mph - so it still has some work to do :wink:
I look forward to the article though - I wanna see these figures they come up with. :D

[Sir_GT]

Here it is:

http://img241.echo.cx/img241/2460/ac1a3is.th.jpg (http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=ac1a3is.jpg)
http://img241.echo.cx/img241/9788/ac25bw.th.jpg (http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=ac25bw.jpg)
http://img241.echo.cx/img241/9966/ac38ml.th.jpg (http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=ac38ml.jpg)
http://img241.echo.cx/img241/3920/ac40gg.th.jpg (http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=ac40gg.jpg)
http://img241.echo.cx/img241/5443/ac54px.th.jpg (http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=ac54px.jpg)
http://img241.echo.cx/img241/7523/ac68wz.th.jpg (http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=ac68wz.jpg)
http://img241.echo.cx/img241/6499/ac73hk.th.jpg (http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=ac73hk.jpg)



Done.

[Sir_GT]

I actually don't give a toss about the Ferrari comparison. A Ferrari will always be a Ferrari, no matter what. What I find most interesting is how close the M5 is to supercar performance... and how far up the ladder it has come.


AMG? Bah. Bespoke? New suspension? Supercharger? Please.

West Coast Customs can do what they do.

[styla21]

Damn i was beaten to it, just about to post the scan. In the intro, the reviewer mentions the fact this is an odd comparison, but explains why it exists.
Also highlights the difference between Ferrari's first "test" cars and their performance figures, compared to the ones coming out now.. The rumour regarding their cars being 'tuned' a little more to increase it's appeal still plays on my mind. Sure, it's hard to fathom a 4 door saloon spanking a Ferrari twice the price, however i think the article sums this sentiment up quite nicely.
I'll wait for the Ferrari assault boys to lay into me.. :P

[BADMIHAI]

AMG is much more than just slapping on a supercharger and suspension. They actually make reliable "tuned" cars, not ones that blow up after 10 000 km.

[RC45]

Well - just read the article and what a load of utter inacurate tripe.

All that happened is what is replayed EVERYDAYin the real world, the giy in the M5 got on the gas a little earlier than the guy in the similar powered F430 and was able keep his .5 sec lead over the ground which is NOTHING special.

How the hell do you think I in a 385hp Z06 can ay Hey I just pulled away from a Viper!!" - because I get on the gas first and only run to 150ish mph... so that by the time the Viper regains it's composure from my "jumping the start" the "race" is over.

And the other scenario where "I could't lose the bloke in the M5" is the same as what I and countless others experience in the woods on B roads with less than ideal psing opportunities.

I have had an M3 chase me and "stick to me arse" until the road opens up then it is bye-bye M3... or I stick to tail of one of my 550hp 427ci Z06 driving buddies through the twisties... but the moment the raod opnes a bit they off like a scalded cat.

That article was nothing more than a colourful anectodote aimed at selling themagazine - period.

Nothing to see here - please move along... :P heheh ;)

[yg60m]

Thanks for the scans mate. This is a weird comparaison for sure but Autocar is used too :wink: And to be honest, they sometimes have odd results but I think the new M5 is a real storm and it can maybe compete with the F430 ...

[Sir_GT]

I can see the flame guns coming out of their holsters... :lol:

Also, anybody notice how RC45 mentioned "tripe" twice in the same thread?

Looks like somebody's learned a new word. ;)

[Sir_GT]

AMG is much more than just slapping on a supercharger and suspension. They actually make reliable "tuned" cars, not ones that blow up after 10 000 km.

You mean like a turbocharged Volvo? That's not exactly a great comparison point. :D

[RC45]

I can see the flame guns coming out of their holsters... :lol:

Also, anybody notice how RC45 mentioned "tripe" twice in the same thread?

Looks like somebody's learned a new word. ;)

Well - it is tripe.. :)

A lot better to say "tripe" than "bucnh of fucking hogswallop bullshit" like I was going to originally post... ;)

[Sir_GT]

Lol. Well, I'll wait until everybody gets to read this (i.e. The "tripe" has hit the fan)

Right now, it's off to work.

Cheers everyone.

[styla21]

It's funny, because both of these cars share spots 1 and 2 on my wish list atm (check sig/avatar :wink: ), however i must admit that on paper there is actually not much in it.
RC, what areas do you think the BMW has it over the Ferrari? From 100 and beyond? Just performance wise, if you had to justify this article what would you say.
I realise the M5 is carrying more weight, but it is deceptively light (we had the E39 if that's anything to go by), and seems able to fling itself in places most cars don't consider.
This comparo really begs to see what the M6 vs F430 would be like :fadein:

[RC45]

I don't think the M5 has anything on the F-Car - unless the M5 gets on the gas earlier.

Which is really a "jump start" situation.

[dingo]

Well - just read the article and what a load of utter inacurate tripe.

All that happened is what is replayed EVERYDAYin the real world, the giy in the M5 got on the gas a little earlier than the guy in the similar powered F430 and was able keep his .5 sec lead over the ground which is NOTHING special.

How the hell do you think I in a 385hp Z06 can ay Hey I just pulled away from a Viper!!" - because I get on the gas first and only run to 150ish mph... so that by the time the Viper regains it's composure from my "jumping the start" the "race" is over.

And the other scenario where "I could't lose the bloke in the M5" is the same as what I and countless others experience in the woods on B roads with less than ideal psing opportunities.

I have had an M3 chase me and "stick to me arse" until the road opens up then it is bye-bye M3... or I stick to tail of one of my 550hp 427ci Z06 driving buddies through the twisties... but the moment the raod opnes a bit they off like a scalded cat.

That article was nothing more than a colourful anectodote aimed at selling themagazine - period.

Nothing to see here - please move along... :P heheh ;)

For once I agree 100% with what RC has to say on a topic! :P

I find their test numbers a bit strange - according to them there is only a 0.5sec gap in the 0-150mph sprint. According to other mags it is more like 2 seconds.... :?

Anyway I also really like both cars - but just think they serve a different purpose in life. :wink:

[styla21]

Dingo you totally right, they serve completely different purposes.. Page 1 covers why this became an interesting comparison though.
I'm also suggesting that this F car has inconsistent performance figures, and trying to figure out why.
As best i see it, the only consistent one is that the F430 would marginally beat the M5 at a traffic light drag race to 60. Beyond that, it's splitting hairs.

[RC45]

For once I agree 100% with what RC has to say on a topic! :P


Please keep this n the QT - I do have a reputation to maintain you know.. ;)

[5vz-fe]

Thanks Sir_GT for the scan......after reading it......I decided to name that article the most exaggerated comparison article ever. Ferrari nowhere in sight?? ummm...are u kidding me. The numers as dingo said, is definitely abit suspicious.

[sads]

If by some miracle I had the money to choose which one to buy I'd buy the M5. I love it, 4 doors, big boot, massive performance what more do you want anyway?

[RC45]

If by some miracle I had the money to choose which one to buy I'd buy the M5. I love it, 4 doors, big boot, massive performance what more do you want anyway?

Anyhting that doesn't carry Bangles signature disaster - I mean design.

[JoeHahn]

After reading the article and looking at their stats sheet I was quite shocked. an F430 hitting 100mph in 9.4 secs? Autocar actually tested the base 360 Modena faster than that (8.8 I think), which is ridiculous. Another thing I considerably hate about car magazines is their lack of depth. OK an M5 may be able to outrun a F430 for a little while, but after a good 10mins of thrashing the M5's brakes simply would not be able to handle its weight, much like the brakes on an M6. This article was appaulingly shallow in almost every respect and showed - like you guys said how much they wanted to sell the magazine by talking up the BMW and hardly mentioning the F430. Me, personally? I would buy an M5 as the price range is alot easier on the eyes. But if I had the chance to afford either? C'mon thats a forgone conclusion.

[dingo]

....an F430 hitting 100mph in 9.4 secs?....

yep - yet another strange number from these guys, its more like 7.9 secs for the F430 to hit 100mph. :wink:

[styla21]

See Dingo that is my point - why are there such inconsistent numbers regarding this car. Don't get me wrong its one of my favourites, but it is interesting that across the board, the numbers fluctuate. On one hand - 0-60 in 3.8 is Enzo territory, then you get a 4.4 test. Then a 4.1 versus the ford gt (check autocars sitee..). Drop us an email btw. :fadein:

[dingo]

....Drop us an email btw. :fadein:

email sent :wink:

[dangerously_cool]

Thanks for the scan. I agree with RC, but another thing I'm wondering is about the driving characteristics the cars have.

From my experience with the new turbos on the SRT, if I keep it below 3500 rpm, really 4000, I will lose to any car I see. I had trouble passing a bastard in a civic because of a 2000 rpm short-shift into third, I almost didn't pass him.

Then at only 13psi of boost I held up with an E39 M5. I think it's only the way they were driving it, assuming they didn't outright lie about the numbers. If they started the F430 below it's ideal 5000 RPM [from what they said] power point, then the BMW could well have been faster, keeping it's edge as if it had a head start like RC said. If the driver shifted at the wrong time (either one of them, seeing as both drove) then it would do the same thing.

It sounds to me like the car was misdriven.

[numerouno]

I wonder how much BMW payed AC to publish this sort of bullshit (tripe ;) )!

[mindgam3]

Nice article, saw it in the shops but decieded not to buy it.

For the majority I trust what Autocar write, they are a great magazine and Sutcliffe is an excellent driver.

I think they must have had a poor F430 though regarding some of the stats. However they do praise the handling of the M5 against the F430 which has nothing to do with power whatsoever.

To me, it doesen't matter what the exact stats are; it does show that the M5 is an awesome machine though and if I had my way, these two would be a good start for my ultimate garage ;)

[Just_me]

AMG is much more than just slapping on a supercharger and suspension. They actually make reliable "tuned" cars, not ones that blow up after 10 000 km.

For your information there are blown up AMG engines as well.
MB is the one suffering from problems. if not engineroblems, AMG having several eletronical problems and I know several AMG owners having problems with their cars. So no, not only BMW have problems.

anyway, a M5 for daily-use and a F430 for trackmeeting and fun, great combination :D

[|Nuno|]

You know, if both cars were actually comparable then I could take this seriously. But they're not...

And of course that a "BMW beats Ferrari" cover will sell more... :wink:


And I won't even speak about the numbers...


The M5 is an awesome machine. I really like it, but saying that it out-handles an F430 is comical. No matter how good it is, it's still a 1800 kilos saloon, so not a true sports car like the F430.

[blah]

AMG is much more than just slapping on a supercharger and suspension. They actually make reliable "tuned" cars, not ones that blow up after 10 000 km.

HAHAHAHAHA. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You havent been around to many Mercs have you? :lol:

You should go read the Technical discussions forum on any mercedes site. You will have hours of good reads. :wink:

[blah]

I forgot to mention there is a problem with 03 AMG E55s stalling.

[styla21]

You know, if both cars were actually comparable then I could take this seriously. But they're not...

Nuno, you are 100% correct. Again, what makes this comparison so unique and interesting, is that the fact that they are so many worlds apart.. Yet the results are suprisingly similar. I still struggle when RC gets going about how his beloved Vette's would spank a german creation, but truth is the neck and neck blasts around the mountains, track, road whatever the result is similar. I realise the BMW does not have the "soul" of the Ferrari, nor the interior quality (although that is sometimes questionable), or some of the attributes that come with its heritage, but at the end of the day a 4 door saloon with luggage will keep up with a sportscar 3 times the price.

[|Nuno|]

You know, if both cars were actually comparable then I could take this seriously. But they're not...

Nuno, you are 100% correct. Again, what makes this comparison so unique and interesting, is that the fact that they are so many worlds apart.. Yet the results are suprisingly similar. I still struggle when RC gets going about how his beloved Vette's would spank a german creation, but truth is the neck and neck blasts around the mountains, track, road whatever the result is similar. I realise the BMW does not have the "soul" of the Ferrari, nor the interior quality (although that is sometimes questionable), or some of the attributes that come with its heritage, but at the end of the day a 4 door saloon with luggage will keep up with a sportscar 3 times the price.

Yeah, all you said is true. The M5 is a fantastic car that would be close to the F430/Gallardo, etc. on a straight line and deliver good fun around the bends, and still being able to transport 5 people and a good amount of luggage. That's the beauty of it.

BUT, what I don't like about this article is the sensacionalism on it. Really, you just need to look at it to tell it was made just to sell more magazines, nothing else. This thread is evidence enough; if the tittle was Ferrari beats BMW, I doubt we had 3 pages of discussion already...

Because I don't think it's necessary to quote the 'Ring times and all that shit to prove that the F430 is faster and handles better than the M5, you just need to look at the stats, and I hate when magazines pull stunts like these... If they had actually been objective and said that overall, the M5 is better (or more rational or whatever) because it had more points in total on their evaluation table, then that would be fine by me, but this...

[SFDMALEX]

I wonder how the hell they got an F430 to reach 60 in 4.4 sec.......They should have went for a full 4.6 if they are going to play that game lol

[oantob]

thanks for the scans, and after i've read it I know 1 thing that AC find M5 is better then F430. The gear, M5 have 7 gear and F430 only 6 nuf said... :wink:

[Just_me]

Of course a M5 can be faster !!
Two skilled drivers on a track and the Ferrari is faster but in the real world its different. I think its easier to drive fast with a M5 than a F430. Afterall F430 is a proper sportcar, the M5 is not and it's meant to be driven everyday and for many hours. So I believe its easier to drive the M5 than a F430 thats why Im not surprised the M5 did so well on the roads in this test.

But in the end it depend on driver skills who is the fastest.

[5vz-fe]

Of course a M5 can be faster !!
Two skilled drivers on a track and the Ferrari is faster but in the real world its different. I think its easier to drive fast with a M5 than a F430. Afterall F430 is a proper sportcar, the M5 is not and it's meant to be driven everyday and for many hours. So I believe its easier to drive the M5 than a F430 thats why Im not surprised the M5 did so well on the roads in this test.

But in the end it depend on driver skills who is the fastest.

My thoughts are exactly opposite. With lower weight and lower center of gravity, I think it should be the Ferrari that has the advantage. However, if both have their Dynamic Stability ON....the M5 might be a easier car to drive coz Ferrari encourage more enthuiast driving so their level of nanny intrustion should be less than that of the M5.


================================================

Something I found:
Car and Driver TEST RESULTS
ACCELERATION: Seconds
Zero to 30 mph: 1.3
40 mph: 1.8
50 mph: 2.8
60 mph: 3.5
70 mph: 4.2
80 mph: 5.4
90 mph: 6.5
100 mph: 7.9
110 mph: 9.3
120 mph: 11.0
130 mph: 13.0
Street start, 5-60 mph: 4.0
Top-gear acceleration, 30-50 mph*: 3.6
50-70 mph: 5.6
Standing 1/4-mile: 11.7 sec @ 123 mph
Top speed (redline limited): 186 mph


Road and Track TEST RESULTS
Time to speed Seconds
0–30 mph.......1.3
0–40 mph.......1.8
0–50 mph.......2.8
0–60 mph.......3.5
0–70 mph.......4.3
0–80 mph.......5.6
0–90 mph.......6.7
0–100 mph.......8.1
Time to distance
0–100 ft.......2.4
0–500 ft.......6.4
0–900 ft.......9.2
0—1320 ft (1⁄4 mile).......11.7 @ 120.1 mph

MotorTrend TEST RESULTS
Acceleration to mph, sec
0-30 1.5 (1.3) sec
0-40 2.1 (1.9)
0-50 3.1 (2.9)
0-60 3.8 (3.7)
0-70 4.7 (4.5)
0-80 5.9 (5.7)
0-90 7.0 (6.8)
0-100 8.6 (8.3)

1⁄4 mile 12.0 sec @ 119.7 mph (11.7 @ 122.8mph)

[Just_me]

I dont understand why people compare times with other carmags. The thing is that Autocar drove both cars at the same day with the same conditions.
Dont get me wrong, I belive 430 is faster but compare with other carmags isnt relevant.

Everyone seem to forget that the M5 cost almost the half price, I think its pretty impressive for a big heavy car to keep up with a F430.

[TomirK]

I absolutely adore the new M5 as it is amazing in what it does with 4 doors and a sizeable boot but people get carried away trying to prove how it
"owns" every other more expensive sports car.
If i had the money I'd by both:) but if I had to choose I would go for the Ferrari if only for the fact that it looks 5x as good.

[Sir_GT]

Actually, I'm surprised with the way people reacted on this site.

The M5 has a 5 litre 500bhp V10, similar to a Gallardo, but has a little bit more weight.

Even then, that is still an impressive amount of power. It should not be a surprise why it can "keep up" with a lighter car which boasts 4.3 litre V8.

I don't believe for one minute that an M5 can beat the F430 on the track, but I surely wouldn't simply disregard the whole article as sensationalism and false hype.


Four-door family saloons are becoming more and more sophisticated and dynamic. Impreza's, Evo's, M5's, M3's, RS4's, and RS6's have power greater than most sports cars of a few years or decades ago.

If an Evo can out-drag a Pagani Zonda, why is it such a surprise that the M5 can keep up with the F430?

If anything, this thread simply shows how people react when a chink in the armour of their "hero" is exposed.

The M5 delivers supercar performance wrapped in a practical saloon. For that reason alone, we shouldn't be complaining, we should actually be celebrating.

[Just_me]

Dont forget that the M5 engine got the award "best performance engine" (and some more awards but in other categories), F430 engine came on second place. We are talking about two great engines.

I wonder how the ferrari would go with the engine from M5 :D

[5vz-fe]

I dont understand why people compare times with other carmags. The thing is that Autocar drove both cars at the same day with the same conditions.
Dont get me wrong, I belive 430 is faster but compare with other carmags isnt relevant.

Everyone seem to forget that the M5 cost almost the half price, I think its pretty impressive for a big heavy car to keep up with a F430.

They are just for reference, but if u take a look the M5 set of numbers from autocar, they are similar to other mags while the F430 numbers are off by at least 1 second. I could understand that test conditions can affect test results, but if you have 2 cars testing on the same day same place then ......

[Just_me]

[quote=Just_me]
It wouldnt be covered by some fugly design anymore.... :wink:

bla bla old news coming for you. I think we all get it.

[RC45]

It wouldnt be covered by some fugly design anymore.... :wink:

bla bla old news coming for you. I think we all get it.

No you don't - it's an ugly car - the whole family is ugly :)

[styla21]

In your opinion RC.. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and most definately with this car you either hate it or love it. I'm a fan, so please learn how to convey your OPINION on the styling of the car properly rather than making open sweeping statements. :fadein:

[RC45]

I'm a fan, so please learn how to convey your OPINION on the styling of the car properly rather than making open sweeping statements. :fadein:

The day the "yank tank hates" and "pushrods suck" brigade do pay us the same respect - maybe I may rephrase it... :P

Until then it will remain one of the ugliest things since the Bangle & seris... ;)

[Sir_GT]

I'm a fan, so please learn how to convey your OPINION on the styling of the car properly rather than making open sweeping statements. :fadein:

The day the "yank tank hates" and "pushrods suck" brigade do pay us the same respect - maybe I may rephrase it... :P

Until then it will remain one of the ugliest things since the Bangle & seris... ;)

So... what would you say is a good looking luxury sedan then? (Excluding the previous 5 series)

[RC45]

I'm a fan, so please learn how to convey your OPINION on the styling of the car properly rather than making open sweeping statements. :fadein:

The day the "yank tank hates" and "pushrods suck" brigade do pay us the same respect - maybe I may rephrase it... :P

Until then it will remain one of the ugliest things since the Bangle & seris... ;)

So... what would you say is a good looking luxury sedan then? (Excluding the previous 5 series)

Well - I would say the first and 2nd Gen M5's were stunning - and the previous S500 had a certain grace about it's hulking presence.

The CTS-V has an ugly brutish look about it as well - ugly enough to actual be liked.

The Jaguar XJ series also has a dignified appearance.

The Bangle 5 is just ugly.. ;)

[Sir_GT]

Well... I'll side on the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" half of the fence.

Interestingly enough though, (officially) BMW sells more E60 5-series than Merc can sell E-classes in the UK. Audi is a distant third.

[RC45]

Well... I'll side on the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" half of the fence.

Interestingly enough though, (officially) BMW sells more E60 5-series than Merc can sell E-classes in the UK. Audi is a distant third.

Bloody hell - you folks have Fish n Chips and Bangers n Mash as national dishes - and have gone on to produce some of the blandest dishes this side of dehydrated astranuat nosh ------ so there is NO accounting for British taste - so i would hardly use that as an indicator of a good design.. :P ;) hehehe

[Just_me]

It wouldnt be covered by some fugly design anymore.... :wink:

bla bla old news coming for you. I think we all get it.

No you don't - it's an ugly car - the whole family is ugly :)

It seems like some of you think you are going to change people minds about M5. You dont like the style, thats okey but dont expect everybody else to agree with you. Its just waste of time but I guess its a good way for you to raise your posts...

And yes 5-serie sell more cars than it ever done before. So RC keep on trying to convince people that 5-serie is ugly, unfortunaly for you, you wont succeed. :fist:

[RC45]

It wouldnt be covered by some fugly design anymore.... :wink:

bla bla old news coming for you. I think we all get it.

No you don't - it's an ugly car - the whole family is ugly :)

It seems like some of you think you are going to change people minds about M5. You dont like the style, thats okey but dont expect everybody else to agree with you. Its just waste of time but I guess its a good way for you to raise your posts...

And yes 5-serie sell more cars than it ever done before. So RC keep on trying to convince people that 5-serie is ugly, unfortunaly for you, you wont succeed. :fist:

Your point?

At the end of the day the car still remains ugly... :roll:

[Just_me]

It wouldnt be covered by some fugly design anymore.... :wink:

bla bla old news coming for you. I think we all get it.

No you don't - it's an ugly car - the whole family is ugly :)

It seems like some of you think you are going to change people minds about M5. You dont like the style, thats okey but dont expect everybody else to agree with you. Its just waste of time but I guess its a good way for you to raise your posts...

And yes 5-serie sell more cars than it ever done before. So RC keep on trying to convince people that 5-serie is ugly, unfortunaly for you, you wont succeed. :fist:

Your point?

At the end of the day the car still remains ugly... :roll:

in your eyes yes but why say it in 9/10 threads, use your brain please.

[Ghostbat]

It wouldnt be covered by some fugly design anymore.... :wink:

bla bla old news coming for you. I think we all get it.

No you don't - it's an ugly car - the whole family is ugly :)

It seems like some of you think you are going to change people minds about M5. You dont like the style, thats okey but dont expect everybody else to agree with you. Its just waste of time but I guess its a good way for you to raise your posts...

And yes 5-serie sell more cars than it ever done before. So RC keep on trying to convince people that 5-serie is ugly, unfortunaly for you, you wont succeed. :fist:

Your point?

At the end of the day the car still remains ugly... :roll:

in your eyes yes but why say it in 9/10 threads, use your brain please.

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

[Just_me]

It wouldnt be covered by some fugly design anymore.... :wink:

bla bla old news coming for you. I think we all get it.

No you don't - it's an ugly car - the whole family is ugly :)

It seems like some of you think you are going to change people minds about M5. You dont like the style, thats okey but dont expect everybody else to agree with you. Its just waste of time but I guess its a good way for you to raise your posts...

And yes 5-serie sell more cars than it ever done before. So RC keep on trying to convince people that 5-serie is ugly, unfortunaly for you, you wont succeed. :fist:

Your point?

At the end of the day the car still remains ugly... :roll:

in your eyes yes but why say it in 9/10 threads, use your brain please.

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Thats what I tried to say all the time.

[Sir_GT]

Well... I'll side on the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" half of the fence.

Interestingly enough though, (officially) BMW sells more E60 5-series than Merc can sell E-classes in the UK. Audi is a distant third.

Bloody hell - you folks have Fish n Chips and Bangers n Mash as national dishes - and have gone on to produce some of the blandest dishes this side of dehydrated astranuat nosh ------ so there is NO accounting for British taste - so i would hardly use that as an indicator of a good design.. :P ;) hehehe

In a way, you're right. I mean, the british DID create America, and look at how that ended up, right?

Although I do find it strange that almost all the top car designers come from the land of Fish and Chips.

[Ghostbat]

Although I do find it strange that almost all the top car designers come from the land of Fish and Chips.


Hmm, ever heard of Italian Designers, there are a few you know :wink:

And remember that 5th Gear chose the X-type as most luxurious car or some nonsense like that. I have no beef at all with England what so ever but using your standards as measure I'm not so sure about. For Gods sake you drive on the wrong side of the road :lol:

[Kinxy]

Hey, quick comment. The e60 m5 is surely a mighty car, BUT, it would NEVER beat a F430, it is most probably the testers of this unserious car mag that were drunk or something. The m5 is XTREMELY good, whilst the f430 is EPIC, performance wise.

Thank you

[Ghostbat]

Hey, quick comment. The e60 m5 is surely a mighty car, BUT, it would NEVER beat a F430, it is most probably the testers of this unserious car mag that were drunk or something. The m5 is XTREMELY good, whilst the f430 is EPIC, performance wise.

Thank you

You sure know how to argue :roll:

[Sir_GT]

Although I do find it strange that almost all the top car designers come from the land of Fish and Chips.


Hmm, ever heard of Italian Designers, there are a few you know :wink:

And remember that 5th Gear chose the X-type as most luxurious car or some nonsense like that. I have no beef at all with England what so ever but using your standards as measure I'm not so sure about. For Gods sake you drive on the wrong side of the road :lol:

Actually, historically speaking, we're the ones driving on the right side of the road.

The reason why the "right" way is on the left, is because during the medieval times, knights had to carry their lances on their right hand. Hence, if they were to meet an adversary, they would be in the right position to defend or attack.

Whereas those who drive on the "wrong" side (i.e. the right) simply did so just to be different. No real reason or history whatsoever. ;)

And are you sure it's the X-type? or the XJ? 5th gear would have a point if it was the XJ.

[dingo]

And are you sure it's the X-type? or the XJ? 5th gear would have a point if it was the XJ.

He's right, it was definately the X-type and not the XJ. :wink:
However the majority of people voting would have been British so you would expect such a result. :D

[Ghostbat]

And are you sure it's the X-type? or the XJ? 5th gear would have a point if it was the XJ.


Quite sure. Think it was a comparison against the Audi A4 Merc C-class and some other car/s.

Thanks for your history lesson btw. Since most countries never had "right hand side drive" cars and still drove on the left side of the road it was an improvement for road safety to change to driving on the right side of the road. I mostly think of the overtaking situation. Being in britain I guess it's no problem driving on the "wrong" side but problem occurs with tourist and if you go abroad yourselves.

[acs power]

I can't understand why so many people are surpirsed by the fact that one of the two best BMW's (M5 & M6) is as good as or little better than the entry model Ferrari. :idea:

[RC45]

Although I do find it strange that almost all the top car designers come from the land of Fish and Chips.

All except that engineer to the god's themselves - Gordon Murray... :P

Seems like the greatest "British" creation was because a bloke decided to come in from the colonies and set things straight... ;)

Oh - and remember, all the cars of "British" origin that made a difference had to get their engines from other countries... :P ;)


When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Because in 9/10 threads there are bunch of mental midget sheeps following the "trend" to like BMTroubleYous... :P

Oh - and boty are the new ones uuuuuuugly.. :)

[mindgam3]

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Because in 9/10 threads there are bunch of mental midget sheeps following the "trend" to like BMTroubleYous... :P

Oh - and boty are the new ones uuuuuuugly.. :)

Why the hell are they selling so many then?

You don't go out and buy a car because you think its ugly now do you? :P

[RC45]

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Because in 9/10 threads there are bunch of mental midget sheeps following the "trend" to like BMTroubleYous... :P

Oh - and boty are the new ones uuuuuuugly.. :)

Why the hell are they selling so many then?

You don't go out and buy a car because you think its ugly now do you? :P

You do if you are mental sheep just blindly following "the trend", what's "cool" and the "one that got the latest award". ;)

Or especially the "one that beat a Ferrari"... :P

[Just_me]

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Because in 9/10 threads there are bunch of mental midget sheeps following the "trend" to like BMTroubleYous... :P

Oh - and boty are the new ones uuuuuuugly.. :)

Why the hell are they selling so many then?

You don't go out and buy a car because you think its ugly now do you? :P

You do if you are mental sheep just blindly following "the trend", what's "cool" and the "one that got the latest award". ;)

Or especially the "one that beat a Ferrari"... :P

I would be glad to see some proves, until then you're full of BS.

[RC45]

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Because in 9/10 threads there are bunch of mental midget sheeps following the "trend" to like BMTroubleYous... :P

Oh - and boty are the new ones uuuuuuugly.. :)

Why the hell are they selling so many then?

You don't go out and buy a car because you think its ugly now do you? :P

You do if you are mental sheep just blindly following "the trend", what's "cool" and the "one that got the latest award". ;)

Or especially the "one that beat a Ferrari"... :P

I would be glad to see some proves, until then you're full of BS.

You sir appear to be yet another mental midget...... aka twit... or other dim witted individual ...

There is a REASON my previous responses have been peppered with SMILING EMOTICONS..... that's most likely because they were LIGHT HEARTED in NATURE!!!!!

FFS people - pull your heads out of your cramped and constipated arses once in a while - and lighten up will you.... :roll:
Hehehe - bunch of wallies... ;)

...but doesn't change how ugly the Bangle brigade are... ;)
-> ;) <- this is a winking smile - indicating a light herated meaning is attached to the preceeding comment.
[expanation attached to protect the stupid]

[Just_me]

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Because in 9/10 threads there are bunch of mental midget sheeps following the "trend" to like BMTroubleYous... :P

Oh - and boty are the new ones uuuuuuugly.. :)

Why the hell are they selling so many then?

You don't go out and buy a car because you think its ugly now do you? :P

You do if you are mental sheep just blindly following "the trend", what's "cool" and the "one that got the latest award". ;)

Or especially the "one that beat a Ferrari"... :P

I would be glad to see some proves, until then you're full of BS.

You sir appear to be yet another mental midget...... aka twit... or other dim witted individual ...

There is a REASON my previous responses have been peppered with SMILING EMOTICONS..... that's most likely because they were LIGHT HEARTED in NATURE!!!!!

FFS people - pull your heads out of your cramped and constipated arses once in a while - and lighten up will you.... :roll:
Hehehe - bunch of wallies... ;)

...but doesn't change how ugly the Bangle brigade are... ;)
-> ;) <- this is a winking smile - indicating a light herated meaning is attached to the preceeding comment.
[expanation attached to protect the stupid]

Lol, you getting upset, I would too if I were you :lol:

[RC45]

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Because in 9/10 threads there are bunch of mental midget sheeps following the "trend" to like BMTroubleYous... :P

Oh - and boty are the new ones uuuuuuugly.. :)

Why the hell are they selling so many then?

You don't go out and buy a car because you think its ugly now do you? :P

You do if you are mental sheep just blindly following "the trend", what's "cool" and the "one that got the latest award". ;)

Or especially the "one that beat a Ferrari"... :P

I would be glad to see some proves, until then you're full of BS.

You sir appear to be yet another mental midget...... aka twit... or other dim witted individual ...

There is a REASON my previous responses have been peppered with SMILING EMOTICONS..... that's most likely because they were LIGHT HEARTED in NATURE!!!!!

FFS people - pull your heads out of your cramped and constipated arses once in a while - and lighten up will you.... :roll:
Hehehe - bunch of wallies... ;)

...but doesn't change how ugly the Bangle brigade are... ;)
-> ;) <- this is a winking smile - indicating a light herated meaning is attached to the preceeding comment.
[expanation attached to protect the stupid]

Lol, you getting upset, I would too if I were you :lol:

Upset ? No?
PMSL at how uptight folks get? Hell yeah :)

[Just_me]

When will you boys realize that beaty is in the eye of the beholder..

Because in 9/10 threads there are bunch of mental midget sheeps following the "trend" to like BMTroubleYous... :P

Oh - and boty are the new ones uuuuuuugly.. :)

Why the hell are they selling so many then?

You don't go out and buy a car because you think its ugly now do you? :P

You do if you are mental sheep just blindly following "the trend", what's "cool" and the "one that got the latest award". ;)

Or especially the "one that beat a Ferrari"... :P

I would be glad to see some proves, until then you're full of BS.

You sir appear to be yet another mental midget...... aka twit... or other dim witted individual ...

There is a REASON my previous responses have been peppered with SMILING EMOTICONS..... that's most likely because they were LIGHT HEARTED in NATURE!!!!!

FFS people - pull your heads out of your cramped and constipated arses once in a while - and lighten up will you.... :roll:
Hehehe - bunch of wallies... ;)

...but doesn't change how ugly the Bangle brigade are... ;)
-> ;) <- this is a winking smile - indicating a light herated meaning is attached to the preceeding comment.
[expanation attached to protect the stupid]

Lol, you getting upset, I would too if I were you :lol:

Upset ? No?
PMSL at how uptight folks get? Hell yeah :)

you live in denial my friend.

[RC45]

you live in denial my friend.

Denial? WTF are you rambling about?

Just because I say something is ugly against" popular" opinion I am in denial?

Please - it's a fucking opinion - just like everyone else, so I will be express it how every I please.

I would normally try and reserve some polite chit-chat and friendly banter to promote congeniality and good will - but decided against it... :fist:

[Just_me]

you live in denial my friend.

Denial? WTF are you rambling about?

Just because I say something is ugly against" popular" opinion I am in denial?

Please - it's a fucking opinion - just like everyone else, so I will be express it how every I please.

I would normally try and reserve some polite chit-chat and friendly banter to promote congeniality and good will - but decided against it... :fist:

Bla bla bla dont you have any more to say than ugly. Of course you entiitled to express yourself but mention it in every BMW thread is just annoying and childish.
Well well, no point arguing anymore cause you will never change. Too bad...

[Blip]

And yes 5-serie sell more cars than it ever
and that means precisely dick. The sales of the older M5 were leveling out so BMW decided a face lift was needed to boost sales...and who better to design a car than a guy looking like this bastard :roll:

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/brotes-thepunk.jpg

Every damn sheep is falling for these marketing ploys by buying into this new futuristic design bullshit. Why mess with the winning design that older 5 series had. BMW should learn from Porsche. :roll:

Help Stop this bastard here
www.petitiononline.com/STOPCB/petition.html

[Just_me]

And yes 5-serie sell more cars than it ever
and that means precisely dick. The sales of the older M5 were leveling out so BMW decided a face lift was needed to boost sales...and who better to design a car than a guy looking like this bastard :roll:



Every damn sheep is falling for these marketing ploys by buying into this new futuristic design bullshit. Why mess with the winning design that older 5 series had. BMW should learn from Porsche. :roll:



Why mess with it, to sell more cars of course and thats what they have done. Lucky for BMW all people dont think like you. :wink:

[Blip]

And yes 5-serie sell more cars than it ever
and that means precisely dick. The sales of the older M5 were leveling out so BMW decided a face lift was needed to boost sales...and who better to design a car than a guy looking like this bastard :roll:



Every damn sheep is falling for these marketing ploys by buying into this new futuristic design bullshit. Why mess with the winning design that older 5 series had. BMW should learn from Porsche. :roll:



Why mess with it, to sell more cars of course and thats what they have done. Lucky for BMW all people dont think like you. :wink:

yes sold them to "cool" youngsters and fat balding middle aged racer wannabes. Thats quite an achievment :lol:

They might have sold more cars overall, but they've lost respect of true car enthusiasts. The M5 was always one of the cars i hoped to acquire but in the past few years the sheer number of BMW's on the road have turned me away...and this silly new spaceshuttle design doesn't help. :|

[RC45]

you live in denial my friend.

Denial? WTF are you rambling about?

Just because I say something is ugly against" popular" opinion I am in denial?

Please - it's a fucking opinion - just like everyone else, so I will be express it how every I please.

I would normally try and reserve some polite chit-chat and friendly banter to promote congeniality and good will - but decided against it... :fist:

Bla bla bla dont you have any more to say than ugly. Of course you entiitled to express yourself but mention it in every BMW thread is just annoying and childish.
Well well, no point arguing anymore cause you will never change. Too bad...

At least when I wake up every morning I am refreshed, sobered up and ready for the day - while the new 5 series is still just butt ugly.

[styla21]

Cmon man, are you serious? Blip if you don't like the styling then ok, but far out the generalisations you guys sling around is ridiculous.. So in order for me to drive a BMW i must be a wannabe youngster, or a fat bald middleaged racer wannabe? You have to shitting me. Please, take a quick survey of the top 10 car magazines - (in your opinion i don't care which ones they are), and let me know how you find their verdict on the M5. My observations are that it will show you it to be a close contender for performace car of the year; that it wins outstanding acclaim for innovation, development; words like "complete package", or "perfect", "amazing" "surreal" and other descriptives that seem to sum the car up.
Also, i've never known a car to be based of it's designers looks - so apart from some personal attacks on Bangel i fail to see any logic in you're bagging of the car. If you're not a fan of the styling - then fine, don't buy one. I am happy for people to not like this car - please just stop being so naive as to thing that you own opinion is reflective of every other persons out there. Regardless of your petitions, hate-clubs, whatever - this is the most highly built 5 series, and by the far the most produced M5... Guess it's going to be successful with or without your opinions. :wink:

[dingo]

grow up children, if you don't like the design of the new Beemers then I have a solution for you - don't look at pictures of them and never buy one! :wink:

Problem solved as far as I can see......

I personally like the new shape of the BMW's, especially the M5 and M6 but I also understand that other people don't and thats their right to think like that. :)

[RC45]

Cmon man, are you serious? Blip if you don't like the styling then ok, but far out the generalisations you guys sling around is ridiculous.. So in order for me to drive a BMW i must be a wannabe youngster, or a fat bald middleaged racer wannabe? You have to shitting me. Please, take a quick survey of the top 10 car magazines - (in your opinion i don't care which ones they are), and let me know how you find their verdict on the M5. My observations are that it will show you it to be a close contender for performace car of the year; that it wins outstanding acclaim for innovation, development; words like "complete package", or "perfect", "amazing" "surreal" and other descriptives that seem to sum the car up.
Also, i've never known a car to be based of it's designers looks - so apart from some personal attacks on Bangel i fail to see any logic in you're bagging of the car. If you're not a fan of the styling - then fine, don't buy one. I am happy for people to not like this car - please just stop being so naive as to thing that you own opinion is reflective of every other persons out there. Regardless of your petitions, hate-clubs, whatever - this is the most highly built 5 series, and by the far the most produced M5... Guess it's going to be successful with or without your opinions. :wink:

So now car magazine opinions are gospel? ;)

You do realize the lobbying the manufacturers do to get those awards right?

Money changes hands, advertizing dollars are bartered and votes are bought - just like any other awards.

Seems the M5 is just another mass produced piece of techno junk, like so many DVD and stero players.. :P

If 5 series sales are up, that;s because someone elses sales are down.. :) The trend will be reversed in a couple years as Audi or MB take the top sedan sales numbers - then it wil switch again.

Still doesn;t make it an attractive car though... ;) :P

[styla21]

So now car magazine opinions are gospel? ;)

You do realize the lobbying the manufacturers do to get those awards right?
Wow that was 100% predictable :P .. Of course a magazine does not mean it is the authority,keep in mind an auto magazine is designed for a specific purpose: to write about the single genre of cars. Logically, the people who write the articles, compile the data, do the research etc are somewhat more qualified than you or and i.. To be honest, i'd take their opinion on a choice of car anyday over say "better homes and gardens". :wink:
Most would assume that a quick survey of 10 seperate magazines would allow for an unbiased outcome. :!:
If you disagree with this RC that is fine, i would be the most stupid out of both of us to continue debating with somebody whose lightbulb is already needs changing. :idea:

[RC45]

So now car magazine opinions are gospel? ;)

You do realize the lobbying the manufacturers do to get those awards right?
Wow that was 100% predictable :P .. Of course a magazine does not mean it is the authority,keep in mind an auto magazine is designed for a specific purpose: to write about the single genre of cars. Logically, the people who write the articles, compile the data, do the research etc are somewhat more qualified than you or and i.. To be honest, i'd take their opinion on a choice of car anyday over say "better homes and gardens". :wink:
Most would assume that a quick survey of 10 seperate magazines would allow for an unbiased outcome. :!:
If you disagree with this RC that is fine, i would be the most stupid out of both of us to continue debating with somebody whose lightbulb is already needs changing. :idea:

Of course it was predictble - :roll: -- it was SUPPOSED to be, that's why it was posted... :)

Christ, I am amazed at how short fused and void of humour many folks are by the end of the week.
Go get laid or something. :)

And BTW - you some how think moto-journalists are some special breed of specialist?

Well, they are not - they just happen to a have a job writing about cars.

They offer no expert or specialized input other than stringing together colourful words for buyers of the magazine to read.

Many journalists just fell into the job and build an auroa around themselves, muc like a talk show host or news reader, they are a type of celebrity and are nothing special.

:)

When I can be bothered I will post you some links to articles about how a couple of key present day journalists happened int their positions - and it wasn't because of their engineering prowess - and thats from their own confessions.. ;)

Anyway - for those too stupid to figure out the stuborn position taken on how ugly the 5 series is - was exagerated for effect - and you all got your testicles twisted by it :) So mission accomplished.

[Blip]

Please, take a quick survey of the top 10 car magazines - (in your opinion i don't care which ones they are), and let me know how you find their verdict on the M5. My observations are that it will show you it to be a close contender for performace car of the year; that it wins outstanding acclaim for innovation, development; words like "complete package", or "perfect", "amazing" "surreal" and other descriptives that seem to sum the car up.

The M5 is certainly a very good car (technically), i never said otherwise. But don't believe everything you read in magazines. They (like many other media forms) often exaggerate for monetary reasons. :wink:

It was always one of my favourite cars but know it's image has been... let's say changed. The reason for my criticism is that i like the car so much so I don't want it to change for the worse. :|

I guess its hard for you to understand why I dislike the styling. It really depends on a person's personality. You clearly are a fan of the hip and trendy :P

[RC45]

I guess its hard for you to understand why I dislike the styling. It really depends on a person's personality. You clearly are a fan of the hip and trendy :P

We have a winner.. :)

The trendyness of the F360 is what turned me off to the car... the M5 is no different.

It's almost as if the American Idol viewers proclaimed the car "the latest in thing" - so now it is so... ;) hehe

[styla21]

Those are some awesome responses, and i fully respect them - because they are stated as opinion! I enjoyed reading your response Blip :fadein:

[Albutzu]

fucking lol.. heaven forbid that someone proclaim they dislike something that is popular and "trendy" or they will be linched by the sheeple

"you must be wrong because so many people bought this product" - DUH !

[ViperASR]

I agree, it is all opinions. I would take the M5 if I had a family, but the F430 if i was living alone or just had a hot-ass wife.

[Just_me]

Yes, you guys you're correct , I like design that dont look like something else.
Apparently BMW did the right thing. the sell lot of cars. There are always people with different opinions. Lucky for BMW, there are more people like me who like the design and buy the car. They sell cars and thats what matters, not what some members here think. :wink:

[RC45]

Yes, you guys you're correct , I like design that dont look like something else.
Apparently BMW did the right thing. the sell lot of cars. There are always people with different opinions. Lucky for BMW, there are more people like me who like the design and buy the car. They sell cars and thats what matters, not what some members here think. :wink:


.....until the "trend" changes... and then y'all rush off and conform to the next "must have".... heheheh :P

[Just_me]

Yes, you guys you're correct , I like design that dont look like something else.
Apparently BMW did the right thing. the sell lot of cars. There are always people with different opinions. Lucky for BMW, there are more people like me who like the design and buy the car. They sell cars and thats what matters, not what some members here think. :wink:


.....until the "trend" changes... and then y'all rush off and conform to the next "must have".... heheheh :P

Jisses RC, Its amazing how many words you know ...

[bmwdakias]

The actual trend right now, almost in all car magazines is to criticize the new design era which was introduced by the infamous Mr Bangle. Therefore, i believe that people using the word ugly to describe a new BMW are the sheeps who blindly follow the opinion expressed by most car mags.

[5vz-fe]

The actual trend right now, almost in all car magazines is to criticize the new design era which was introduced by the infamous Mr Bangle. Therefore, i believe that people using the word ugly to describe a new BMW are the sheeps who blindly follow the opinion expressed by most car mags.

What are u talking about?? Just look at the 7 series and tell me that is not ugly compared to the last generation.....do u reallly need journalist to tell u that?

[Just_me]

The actual trend right now, almost in all car magazines is to criticize the new design era which was introduced by the infamous Mr Bangle. Therefore, i believe that people using the word ugly to describe a new BMW are the sheeps who blindly follow the opinion expressed by most car mags.

What are u talking about?? Just look at the 7 series and tell me that is not ugly compared to the last generation.....do u reallly need journalist to tell u that?

yes the old one but with the facelift it looks gorgeous.

[5vz-fe]

The actual trend right now, almost in all car magazines is to criticize the new design era which was introduced by the infamous Mr Bangle. Therefore, i believe that people using the word ugly to describe a new BMW are the sheeps who blindly follow the opinion expressed by most car mags.

What are u talking about?? Just look at the 7 series and tell me that is not ugly compared to the last generation.....do u reallly need journalist to tell u that?

yes the old one but with the facelift it looks gorgeous.

For me, I think the M5 is sooo hot is becoz of it's performance and handling in a whole package. So it looks becomes almost secondary. When the 5 Series first came out, my first thought is "fugly", but when the M5 came out....watching more and more video review, I start to like the lines and shape. So I guess there's something call instant beauty and some other thing call adaptive beauty.

[RC45]

Yes, you guys you're correct , I like design that dont look like something else.
Apparently BMW did the right thing. the sell lot of cars. There are always people with different opinions. Lucky for BMW, there are more people like me who like the design and buy the car. They sell cars and thats what matters, not what some members here think. :wink:


.....until the "trend" changes... and then y'all rush off and conform to the next "must have".... heheheh :P

Jisses RC, Its amazing how many words you know ...

Almost as many as ugly BMW's... which means my vocabulary has been growing in leaps and bounds this last coupe of years ;)

[Sir_GT]

I never liked the new bimmers because they were "hip" and "trendy". I liked them because they didn't look boring. They were definite head-turners. I liked the way each bimmer's design spoke of the cars intentions and as well as showcasing the family link, instead of only just the latter, as with all other German cars.

I mean, the E-class is simply supposed to be a smaller S-class, and the C a smaller E. Whoopee. It's nice that the (new) 7-series looks sedate, steady, and laid back - basically speaking its intentions, while the 5-series looks far more aggressive, dynamic, and squat - signalling the schportiness it has compared to the 7.

Ferrari uses the same approach. Their mid-engined cars are far more aggressive when compared to their front-engined GT's. The design speaks of the car's intention. That's good design. That's being creative and inspired. It also defines the product better.

I doubt if any of us liked the new BMW's because we fell for the marketing... I mean, what marketing are you guys talking about?! They simply threw out the new designs without even the slightest warning. We like them because they look good, and if the new look is a little too much for some people, then tough luck, you can always buy one of those "VW's for snobs" (Audi) anyway...just don't start whining that your cars are under-engineered and over priced.

[coombsie66]

The new 5 series has been growing on me since i first saw one on the road, and the M cars will forever hold a place in my heart having experienced them from a young age with my father at the helm. (I still think the E39 M5 is better looking than its younger sibling though)
However i have to agree with RC on some of these issues, the car magazines together with the majority of automotive journalists cannot be considered accurate for many reasons. And i appreciated the use of 'light hearted' smilies in the piss taking of my dear nation, hence did not take offence. People, lighten up!

The M5 is an awsome car, but the M5 and the F430 are very very different.
To be honest the car i prefer would depend totally on my situation in life and the experience after having a test drive in both. Although i love BMW's and i adore the engine in the M5, that F430 isnt exactly poor in the engineering areas. (I'll never be a huge fan of the flat plain crank sound though).

:)

[styla21]

That is an awesome description of design Sir GT, really enjoying reading these posts :fadein:

[Sir_GT]

That is an awesome description of design Sir GT, really enjoying reading these posts :fadein:

Cheers mate. I was simply defending our point.

If anything, I find amusing that some people simply dislikes a car's "design" just because it's popular.

This isn't directed at RC either. I have definitely heard that same "opinion" by quite a few people over a few dinner conversations.

I mean, isn't that just the same thing as being swayed by what is "hip" or "trendy"?

[RC45]

I doubt if any of us liked the new BMW's because we fell for the marketing... I mean, what marketing are you guys talking about?! They simply threw out the new designs without even the slightest warning.

Uhm - you have got to be kidding. ;) :P

Try to imagine just how much money BMW have spent over the last 5 years just to market, advertise and drive sales of BMW cars, bikes and the new Mini - in the form of movies starring BMW's (James Bond is but one - and the remake of The Italian Job) and TV and print ads.

BMW has one of the most active marketing engines in the history of the automobile.

And it has apparently worked - as proven by this thread. :)

But this still doesn't make their new cars attractive. ;)

[ZfrkS62]

I doubt if any of us liked the new BMW's because we fell for the marketing... I mean, what marketing are you guys talking about?! They simply threw out the new designs without even the slightest warning.

Uhm - you have got to be kidding. ;) :P

Try to imagine just how much money BMW have spent over the last 5 years just to market, advertise and drive sales of BMW cars, bikes and the new Mini - in the form of movies starring BMW's (James Bond is but one - and the remake of The Italian Job) and TV and print ads.

BMW has one of the most active marketing engines in the history of the automobile.

And it has apparently worked - as proven by this thread. :)

But this still doesn't make their new cars attractive. ;)

The Italian Job remake wasn't BMW"s doing by any means. The original starred the original Mini, the new one had the new "Mini". Point out to me where BMW was actively involved :P :wink:

And i'm pretty sure that JB is much more identified with Aston Martin than he is with BMW. What was it, 4 007 movies with Brosnan that he had a Bimmer? Not hardly enough to change the image :wink: and again, i doubt BMW had an active role in the desicion to use those cars and the bike :P

I don't know if BMW is marketing the UK as heavily as they are the US, so that may be why Sir_GT is making that remark.

[Sir_GT]

I doubt if any of us liked the new BMW's because we fell for the marketing... I mean, what marketing are you guys talking about?! They simply threw out the new designs without even the slightest warning.

Uhm - you have got to be kidding. ;) :P

Try to imagine just how much money BMW have spent over the last 5 years just to market, advertise and drive sales of BMW cars, bikes and the new Mini - in the form of movies starring BMW's (James Bond is but one - and the remake of The Italian Job) and TV and print ads.

BMW has one of the most active marketing engines in the history of the automobile.

And it has apparently worked - as proven by this thread. :)

But this still doesn't make their new cars attractive. ;)

That's not how I understood your first point.

From my understanding, you said that we like the current design because of their marketing. Which, simply put, isn't true.

Now if you mean we like BMW (as a brand) because of their marketing, then I would inclined to agree with you.

But if you're saying that we "fell" for the design because it's BMW... then my response to that is you're (a) dead wrong, and/or (b) simply generalising.

Thing is, I also like Audi (as a brand) because of their marketing... but that doesn't change the fact that I don't like their current design direction.

Inversely, the same applies to BMW. I like their design, regardless of their badge. I like the design of Toyota's new Aygo, but I couldn't care less about the badge. I like the new Citroen C4 coupe, but I couldn't care less about the badge. I like the new Ford Mustang GT, but I couldn't care less about the badge. I like the Rover 75, but I couldn't care less about the badge.

I could go on and on with examples, but that doesn't change the point that some people simply find BMW's new design approach rather attractive. The fact that they have a good reputation, build brilliantly-engineered cars, and have a "hip" image simply add to the package.

As one person pointed it out sometime ago in this thread: People will never buy something they deem to be ugly. If anything, it would be the object's appearance that would either attract or repel a potential buyer.

If somebody's extremely brand concious, and for example, he or she finds a certain model of Mercedes unsightly, he or she will simply choose a different Mercedes, or a different brand car, just as long as it is both attractive and carries the right badge. You and I may not purchase our cars based on this, but I agree that some people do.

But at the end of the day, there are still more E60 5-series BMW's being sold than Mercedes-Benz E-classes. The demographics don't matter. If the 5-series was as ugly as you make it out to be (and you'll be pleased to know that Jeremy Clarkson agrees with you), then it wouldn't be selling as well.

What else can I say? The buying public likes Bangle's Bimmers. Full stop.

[Sir_GT]

I doubt if any of us liked the new BMW's because we fell for the marketing... I mean, what marketing are you guys talking about?! They simply threw out the new designs without even the slightest warning.

Uhm - you have got to be kidding. ;) :P

Try to imagine just how much money BMW have spent over the last 5 years just to market, advertise and drive sales of BMW cars, bikes and the new Mini - in the form of movies starring BMW's (James Bond is but one - and the remake of The Italian Job) and TV and print ads.

BMW has one of the most active marketing engines in the history of the automobile.

And it has apparently worked - as proven by this thread. :)

But this still doesn't make their new cars attractive. ;)

I don't know if BMW is marketing the UK as heavily as they are the US, so that may be why Sir_GT is making that remark.

Well, BMW barely advertise, and the same goes for Mercedes. In fact, the only time they ever advertise is when they're launching a new car. Then the add goes on for a few times every night (you'll probably catch the add once), for about a month, and that's it.

Plus, the ads never talk about design or what not. In fact, usually there aren't even any words (except for the launch date). There's no heavy "trendy" ads to influence the buying public at all.

But Audi? It's always "Vorsprung Durch Technik" all day, every day. Are they selling? Nope. They are a distant (and I mean distant) third.

[RC45]

What else can I say? The buying public likes Bangle's Bimmers. Full stop.

That same public the world over watches the likes of urvivor, American Idol (and other variants) and trash TV - ust because "everyone does it" doesn't make it based on good taste, common sense or wisdom ;)

There is no accounting for trend-followers tastes.. :)

Unless you are now saying the best seller of anyhting is always the best of anything.. ;)

We can then safely assume that WIndows i the worlds best seller because it is the worlds best OS.. ;)

Not to mentio countless trashy movies, songs and books that are "Best Sellers" but are far form "the best". :P

[Sir_GT]

Good point, but that sword you swing cuts both ways as well.

You might have bought a Fiat multipla because you don't trust the buying public's taste... but that doesn't mean that you had any yourself. ;)

Which of course, brings us back to the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" argument, which is a bit like the chicken and the egg one.

[RC45]

The Italian Job remake wasn't BMW"s doing by any means. The original starred the original Mini, the new one had the new "Mini". Point out to me where BMW was actively involved :P :wink:

Any proof that BMW was NOT behind the Italian Job revival?

Rumour has it Italian Job 2 is in the works and will showcase anew Mini-based SUV and other titbits the BMW marketing department can't wait to get into the public eye. :)

[styla21]

It's funny how removed this discussion is from the point of BMW beating a Ferrari. :mrgreen: I'm not sure that you (RC) will ever accept anothers viewpoint, but i thought i might mention that i see yours. I don't agree totally, but i can understand where you are coming from. :P
I don't think the bmw supporters here have tried to convey the message that because a car is popular that makes it good, but infact the other way around - that the car manages to sell well because it is highly desirable. Marketing may have something to do with this, but if you were the CEO of a car company wouldn't you employ some of the most effective strategies possible to sell your models? It seems BMW have - via word of mouth, as simply there is nothing better than a genuinly good product.

[RC45]

Which of course, brings us back to the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" argument, which is a bit like the chicken and the egg one.

*nodding head madly* ;)

[bmwdakias]

The actual trend right now, almost in all car magazines is to criticize the new design era which was introduced by the infamous Mr Bangle. Therefore, i believe that people using the word ugly to describe a new BMW are the sheeps who blindly follow the opinion expressed by most car mags.

What are u talking about?? Just look at the 7 series and tell me that is not ugly compared to the last generation.....do u reallly need journalist to tell u that?

If you like the new design direction implemented by BMW you will then definately like the E65 7series. The previous generation seven was a big car with elegant and simple lines that lacked a bit of imagination. In no way ugly, but it was just a bigger three series. What has been achieved now is that every model is instantly recognisable.Furthermore the new seven has presence that only the previous generation S-Class could match,whereas the old seven lacked this important ingredient for this particular category. I like the new seven more than the old one, it might not be to everyones taste but its a car that i want to look and observe whereas the old seven is like AUDIs, ''beatiful'' but boring at the same time (except TT).

[Just_me]

Im still waiting for proves which shows that owners of BMW think their cars are ugly. Until I seen them its a lot of BS here. The biggest problem for some of you isnt about ugliness, the real problem is that BMW are selling very well (even it you wont admit it). I love it cause I love to see how wrong some of you are. :mrgreen:

[|Nuno|]

I never liked the new bimmers because they were "hip" and "trendy". I liked them because they didn't look boring. They were definite head-turners. I liked the way each bimmer's design spoke of the cars intentions and as well as showcasing the family link, instead of only just the latter, as with all other German cars.

I mean, the E-class is simply supposed to be a smaller S-class, and the C a smaller E. Whoopee. It's nice that the (new) 7-series looks sedate, steady, and laid back - basically speaking its intentions, while the 5-series looks far more aggressive, dynamic, and squat - signalling the schportiness it has compared to the 7.

Ferrari uses the same approach. Their mid-engined cars are far more aggressive when compared to their front-engined GT's. The design speaks of the car's intention. That's good design. That's being creative and inspired. It also defines the product better.

I doubt if any of us liked the new BMW's because we fell for the marketing... I mean, what marketing are you guys talking about?! They simply threw out the new designs without even the slightest warning. We like them because they look good, and if the new look is a little too much for some people, then tough luck, you can always buy one of those "VW's for snobs" (Audi) anyway...just don't start whining that your cars are under-engineered and over priced.

*Applauds*


If anything, I find amusing that some people simply dislikes a car's "design" just because it's popular.

This isn't directed at RC either. I have definitely heard that same "opinion" by quite a few people over a few dinner conversations.

I mean, isn't that just the same thing as being swayed by what is "hip" or "trendy"?

Exacly. I happen to like the design of the new BMW's.

Does that make me a "trend follower" or a non true auto enthusiast? :roll:

Of course not. I may be a lot of things, but a trend follower? Hell no! Trends bug the fuck out of me.

This applies to everything, not just cars. I like something for what it is, not because it's popular or not.

You guys are starting to sound like some dudes at a Tool forum that I go to. The minute you talk about a well known band they'll go:

"Oh noes, they're mainstream!!1 They suck cuz they're popular!!1!"

That's as stupid as saying that they're good because they sell alot - and on that I agree 100% with RC. If it sells well, doesn't mean it's good.

[Just_me]

That's as stupid as saying that they're goog because they sell alot - and on that I agree 100% with RC. If it sells well, doesn't mean it's good.

No, thats true its not good cause it sells good but the cars attract people, thats why it sells. Why does it sell cause people like the product. Noone force them to buy the cars.

[thekillingroad]

Just no suprise... No one expected the M5 to beat the F430 in 400m, leaving it meters back... but

dont forget that the M5 is just a sedan, actually not JUST a Sedan.. but its a sedan at all.. and it weighs 400kgs more than the F430 or other "fastcar" categories around 1400s...
and its just capable to run with 'em.. thats a really really big thing...

[RC45]

Im still waiting for proves which shows that owners of BMW think their cars are ugly.

Then you are in for a long wait - who the fuck cares wat the current onwers think?

Many non-owners think the cars are ugly. That' all that matters - have no idea why you are so obsessed with "the proof".


Until I seen them its a lot of BS here.

Interesting point of view - that OPPOSING opinions are bull-shit. There in lies the problem, you seem to have no capacity for appreciating that people have differing opinions - and mine (and others) is that the new 5 series is ugly. Period.


The biggest problem for some of you isnt about ugliness, the real problem is that BMW are selling very well (even it you wont admit it).

Not at all - you and others are using "sales figures" (which are more a measure or market trend than product success or quality) as proff that the new 5 is not ugly... come back with numbers that show how many private vs company 5 series purchases are taking place and we can talk.

You must be aware that Ford sells 100,000's of Crown Victorias every year - making it the largest selling full size car in the history of the world... does that mean it is the prettiest and best one out there? ;)


I love it cause I love to see how wrong some of you are. :mrgreen:
ACtually when you sell as few cars as BMW doe, you would welcome any increase in sales - even if it is due to Merceds losing market share vs BMW product being superior... ;)

** this thread is gtting some good exposure - this is good, does that mean that the content is good or the posters uber-wwise? Or is it just trendy to read popular threads --- afterall, if everyone reads it, it must be good... :) ;) :P hehehe ***

[Just_me]

Im still waiting for proves which shows that owners of BMW think their cars are ugly.

Then you are in for a long wait - who the fuck cares wat the current onwers think?

Many non-owners think the cars are ugly. That' all that matters - have no idea why you are so obsessed with "the proof".


Until I seen them its a lot of BS here.

Interesting point of view - that OPPOSING opinions are bull-shit. There in lies the problem, you seem to have no capacity for appreciating that people have differing opinions - and mine (and others) is that the new 5 series is ugly. Period.


The biggest problem for some of you isnt about ugliness, the real problem is that BMW are selling very well (even it you wont admit it).

Not at all - you and others are using "sales figures" (which are more a measure or market trend than product success or quality) as proff that the new 5 is not ugly... come back with numbers that show how many private vs company 5 series purchases are taking place and we can talk.

You must be aware that Ford sells 100,000's of Crown Victorias every year - making it the largest selling full size car in the history of the world... does that mean it is the prettiest and best one out there? ;)


I love it cause I love to see how wrong some of you are. :mrgreen:
ACtually when you sell as few cars as BMW doe, you would welcome any increase in sales - even if it is due to Merceds losing market share vs BMW product being superior... ;)

** this thread is gtting some good exposure - this is good, does that mean that the content is good or the posters uber-wwise? Or is it just trendy to read popular threads --- afterall, if everyone reads it, it must be good... :) ;) :P hehehe ***


Why I want prof? Well cause it sounds like you think that everyone who buy a bimmer think its an ugly car.

No, I have no problems with people think new bimmers are ugly, I never said anything about it or did I?
If not here I have said it before, design is personal, no one is right or wrong but repeting in every post is just nuts, people already know what you think. Instead of saying "ugly" why not say something more intelligent. But I guess you like to be provokative, it lies in your nature. You dont seem to handle or appreciate that there really are people who like the new bimmers.

We can talk about design forever, you and me wont think the same about BMW design but its not important for BMW, whats relly is important are sales. BMW sell cars, more cars than they have ever done before and you have serious problems with it cause you hate when people dont listen or think like you.


I dont really understand why we have this discussion, its leading nowhere cause according to ourselves we are both right, we wont change our opinions. I think both you and me has already decided what to belive. This discussion we had could come from 8 years old kids :P . RC45 if you want something send me a private message cause there isnt any more to be said.

[RC45]

I dont really understand why we have this discussion, its leading nowhere cause according to ourselves we are both right, we wont change our opinions. I think both you and me has already decided what to belive. This discussion we had could come from 8 years old kids :P . RC45 if you want something send me a private message cause there isnt any more to be said.

FFS bloke, I am guessing that something is being lost in the translition here - apparently you lost track of the "obvious humour/teasing" going on here. ;)

There is NOTHING that warrents a private message to or from me.

A couple things - I NEVER CLAIMED THE PEOPLE WHO BUY BMW'S THINK THEY ARE UGLY!!!!! Why do keep repeating this?

I am saying those who DON'T buy them think they are ugly... and thats' why they/we don't like em or buy em... *whew* - I feel like the teacher trying to drum something into the "slow" student in the class... :P ;)

And most of all - I am assuming you are completely void of any semblence of understanding or interest in obtuse humour of the obvious... hehehe ;)


** this thread is getting some good exposure - this is good, does that mean that the content is good or the posters uber-wise? Or is it just trendy to read popular threads --- afterall, if everyone reads it, it must be good... :) ;) :P hehehe ***

Read this again and then take your uptight wadded panties and pull them out of your arse. :)

It is a tongue in cheek stab at the "serious defenders" of the crap Bangle designs in this thread.

You blokes "seriously defending" the design need to understand those of use "humourously attacking" it are now laughing at you guys/gals... not with you... :P

[Just_me]

I dont really understand why we have this discussion, its leading nowhere cause according to ourselves we are both right, we wont change our opinions. I think both you and me has already decided what to belive. This discussion we had could come from 8 years old kids :P . RC45 if you want something send me a private message cause there isnt any more to be said.

FFS bloke, I am guessing that something is being lost in the translition here - apparently you lost track of the "obvious humour/teasing" going on here. ;)

There is NOTHING that warrents a private message to or from me.

A couple things - I NEVER CLAIMED THE PEOPLE WHO BUY BMW'S THINK THEY ARE UGLY!!!!! Why do keep repeating this?

I am saying those who DON'T buy them think they are ugly... and thats' why they/we don't like em or buy em... *whew* - I feel like the teacher trying to drum something into the "slow" student in the class... :P ;)

And most of all - I am assuming you are completely void of any semblence of understanding or interest in obtuse humour of the obvious... hehehe ;)


** this thread is getting some good exposure - this is good, does that mean that the content is good or the posters uber-wise? Or is it just trendy to read popular threads --- afterall, if everyone reads it, it must be good... :) ;) :P hehehe ***

Read this again and then take your uptight wadded panties and pull them out of your arse. :)

It is a tongue in cheek stab at the "serious defenders" of the crap Bangle designs in this thread.

You blokes "seriously defending" the design need to understand those of use "humourously attacking" it are now laughing at you guys/gals... not with you... :P

Good to see we cleared some things out RC45 :smilecolros:

[RC45]

Good to see we cleared some things out RC45 :smilecolros:

Well - almost cleared em up... we now just need concensus that the new M5 is ugly... ;) :P

[bmwdakias]

Just admit it, it is a bit bothering that a car weighting 1800kg and having four doors can compete with some true sports cars weighting a lot less and costing a lot more. So, I guess it is ugly.I agree.

[Sir_GT]

I disagree. I think it looks the business. The A6 looks like a whale, the E-class is a bit of a tweed shirt, and the S-type is an aluminim walking stick... with a rubber stopper.

[sameerrao]

I just read the article comparing the 430 and M5 - the BMW acquitted itself very well. Excellent performance for a 4000 lb vehicle. But better than an F430 - naaah!

British mags like Autocar and Evo are famous for raving about Ferraris when doing a single test but they consistently berate the F-cars when doing any comparison. They are not consistent in their conclusions at all - E.g. Evo last year rated the 360 CS better than the Porsche 911 GT3 but then in the PCOTY test later that year they rated the GT3 better. Go figure!

I pulled up the following numbers comparing the M5 with a couple Ferraris and a Gallardo - data pulled from http://www.track-challenge.com/main_e.asp

Acceleration - standing start:
0-100 km/h, 0-160 km/h, 0-200 km/h
BMW M5: 4.5, 9.2, 13.8 secs
Ferrari 360 CS: 4.4, 9.7, 15.5
Ferrari 360 M: 4.7, 10.5, 16.1
Ferrari 550 M: 4.5, 9.6, 14.2
Ferrari 575 M: 4.6, 9.7, 13.9
Lambo Gallardo: 4.0, 8.4, 13.0
--> M5 is quicker than all but the Gallardo. The 550 and 575 should beat it above 200 ks though. Impressive Bimmer.

Acceleration - Sixth gear:
80-120 km/h, 80-160 km/h, 80-180 km/h
BMW M5: 6.9, 13.5, 17.3 secs
Ferrari 360 CS: 8.7, 16.4, n/a
Ferrari 360 M: 9.4, 17.3, 21.4
Ferrari 550 M: 7.3, 15.2, 18.9
Ferrari 575 M: 7.1, 14.2, 17.7
Lambo Gallardo: 6.5, 12.7, 16.0
--> Repeat of above performance! The gearing and torque must be perfect for the Bimmer to do so well.

Braking
100-0 km/h, 200-0 km/h
BMW M5: 36.1metres, 149.4 metres
Ferrari 360 CS: 35.4, 139.8
Ferrari 360 M: 35.7, 145.6
Ferrari 550 M: 38.2, 148.4
Ferrari 575 M: 38.0, 147.4
Lambo Gallardo: 34.4, 138.9
--> The weight kills the Bimmer here.

Circuit lap times - Nuerburgring Nordshleife:
Lap time, Fastest Speed, Max latl accel
BMW M5: 8min13sec, 269 km/h, 1.2g
Ferrari 360 CS: 7min56sec, 271 km/h, 1.25g
Ferrari 360 M: 8min09sec, 257 km/h, 1.3g
Ferrari 550 M: 8min07sec, 268 km/h, 1.3g
Ferrari 575 M: 8min05sec, 285 km/h, 1.15g
Lambo Gallardo: 7min52sec, 283 km/h, 1.3g

Circuit lap times - Hockenheim club circuit:
Lap time, Fastest Speed, Max latl accel
BMW M5: 1min16.5sec, 194 km/h, 1.1g
Ferrari 360 CS: 1min13.0sec, 195 km/h, 1.3g
Ferrari 360 M: 1min15.1sec, 188 km/h, 1.25g
Ferrari 550 M: 1min16.1sec, 188 km/h, 1.1g
Ferrari 575 M: 1min14.7sec, 196 km/h, 1.2g
Lambo Gallardo: 1min11.8sec, 201 km/h, 1.25g
--> The brakes and weight make the BMW come last despite all its power

Excellent performance by the Bimmer overall. Just dont bring it to the track expecting to beat everyone.

Anyway I expect most people will want a M5 and a 430 and not choose one over the other!

[RC45]

Well, in the spirit of reviving dormant threads I have a little video to share (if I can get it uploaded to the vault).

I know GT4 based evaluations seem to bring out the anger in people - but to bad... ;)

This is a little piece I put together that goes a long way towards validating the Autocar results - the E60 M5 can more than hold it's own against real sports cars.. ;)

But the intent was simply a little dual against a virtual Sabine.

http://img101.echo.cx/img101/7860/virtualsabine5dk.th.jpg (http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=virtualsabine5dk.jpg)

http://img101.echo.cx/img101/5733/virtualsabine13ro.th.jpg (http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=virtualsabine13ro.jpg)

[SFDMALEX]

Acceleration - standing start:
0-100 km/h, 0-160 km/h, 0-200 km/h
BMW M5: 4.5, 9.2, 13.8 secs
Ferrari 360 CS: 4.4, 9.7, 15.5
Ferrari 360 M: 4.7, 10.5, 16.1
Ferrari 550 M: 4.5, 9.6, 14.2
Ferrari 575 M: 4.6, 9.7, 13.9
Lambo Gallardo: 4.0, 8.4, 13.0
--> M5 is quicker than all but the Gallardo. The 550 and 575 should beat it above 200 ks though. Impressive Bimmer.

Acceleration - Sixth gear:
80-120 km/h, 80-160 km/h, 80-180 km/h
BMW M5: 6.9, 13.5, 17.3 secs
Ferrari 360 CS: 8.7, 16.4, n/a
Ferrari 360 M: 9.4, 17.3, 21.4
Ferrari 550 M: 7.3, 15.2, 18.9
Ferrari 575 M: 7.1, 14.2, 17.7
Lambo Gallardo: 6.5, 12.7, 16.0
--> Repeat of above performance! The gearing and torque must be perfect for the Bimmer to do so well.

Braking
100-0 km/h, 200-0 km/h
BMW M5: 36.1metres, 149.4 metres
Ferrari 360 CS: 35.4, 139.8
Ferrari 360 M: 35.7, 145.6
Ferrari 550 M: 38.2, 148.4
Ferrari 575 M: 38.0, 147.4
Lambo Gallardo: 34.4, 138.9
--> The weight kills the Bimmer here.

Circuit lap times - Nuerburgring Nordshleife:
Lap time, Fastest Speed, Max latl accel
BMW M5: 8min13sec, 269 km/h, 1.2g
Ferrari 360 CS: 7min56sec, 271 km/h, 1.25g
Ferrari 360 M: 8min09sec, 257 km/h, 1.3g
Ferrari 550 M: 8min07sec, 268 km/h, 1.3g
Ferrari 575 M: 8min05sec, 285 km/h, 1.15g
Lambo Gallardo: 7min52sec, 283 km/h, 1.3g

Circuit lap times - Hockenheim club circuit:
Lap time, Fastest Speed, Max latl accel
BMW M5: 1min16.5sec, 194 km/h, 1.1g
Ferrari 360 CS: 1min13.0sec, 195 km/h, 1.3g
Ferrari 360 M: 1min15.1sec, 188 km/h, 1.25g
Ferrari 550 M: 1min16.1sec, 188 km/h, 1.1g
Ferrari 575 M: 1min14.7sec, 196 km/h, 1.2g
Lambo Gallardo: 1min11.8sec, 201 km/h, 1.25g
--> The brakes and weight make the BMW come last despite all its power


Those are some of the slowest time for the Ferraris I ever saw. Really. 575 0-60 in 4.6? :roll: CS in 4.4??? Man these are like old 360M times. Gallardo 4 flat? I didnt know its that fast.

[SFDMALEX]

the E60 M5 can more than hold it's own against real sports cars.. ;)

Yeah, when the sports car driver is a hair dresser :wink: Looking at the "slow" Ferrari NS time its almost 20sec slower then the CS. And taking into account the fact that its probably biased and overhyped and all that I bet its even slower then that.

[RC45]

the E60 M5 can more than hold it's own against real sports cars.. ;)

Yeah, when the sports car driver is a hair dresser :wink: Looking at the "slow" Ferrari NS time its almost 20sec slower then the CS. And taking into account the fact that its probably biased and overhyped and all that I bet its even slower then that.

I am just trying to be nice here - ;) Truth is, even in a video game if you don't back off every now and again you will drive right up the rear bumper of the large heavy 4 door bus :P -- but I was just trying to break the ice/chew the fat/chill out with the M5 peeps and offer up some fun.. hehe

[RC45]

Well - here's the link to the Virtual RingTaxi video.

http://rapidshare.de/files/2674412/Virtual_Sabine1.zip.html


http://img101.echo.cx/img101/7860/virtualsabine5dk.th.jpg (http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=virtualsabine5dk.jpg)

http://img101.echo.cx/img101/5733/virtualsabine13ro.th.jpg (http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=virtualsabine13ro.jpg)

[bmwdakias]

The M5 is a bus that kicks your Z06 ass.I am not biassed at all as my brother owns a 2001 silver Z06 and i really admire the car, but the truth has to come out on the surface. The M5 rules :P

[RC45]

The M5 is a bus that kicks your Z06 ass.I am not biassed at all as my brother owns a 2001 silver Z06 and i really admire the car, but the truth has to come out on the surface. The M5 rules :P

Sure - of course. :P

I am not even going to get involved in an argument that goes back and forth - because in the "in game video" the Z never passed the M5 for the effect of the video - to make is a Virtual Ringtaxi lap... :roll:

In case it isn't obvious - that means the Z was artificially held back for the sake of making a nice video.

BTW - youhave any pictures of your brothers car?

[SFDMALEX]

"in game video" the Z never passed the M5 for [i]


Thats cause you cant drive :lol: j/k

[RC45]

"in game video" the Z never passed the M5 for


Thats cause you cant drive :lol: j/k

Hey - I can too drive - !! ) :D Sabine just wouldn' let me pass, she kept blocking and hogging the line. And when I did get a good run she would brake check me :P She was just showing offto her passangers :lol:

Just wait till next time.... :)


you can always buy one of those "VW's for snobs" (Audi) anyway...just don't start whining that your cars are under-engineered and over priced.


ROFLMAO.......

Audi are for snobs???? who are BMW`s for then??? :?



:lol: BMW's are for posers then? ;) Tough choice - to be known as a poser.. or a snob? ;) :P heheh

[Sir_GT]

you can always buy one of those "VW's for snobs" (Audi) anyway...just don't start whining that your cars are under-engineered and over priced.


ROFLMAO.......

Audi are for snobs???? who are BMW`s for then??? :?

and since when did Audi`s become under engineered??? :?

you are so far off its really no point talking to you..... :roll:

The A3 is based on a Golf (uses the same chassis), the A4 is a stretched Golf (which means it's a Passat), and so on and so forth...

And, as everybody knows, VW manufactures their cars based on affordability... and with the chassis being the most expensive part of the car (next to the engine, which is again shared), VW always cannot build a chassis to BMW-levels because they need to be profitable at a lower price bracket.

Hence, Audi's chassis, as long as they are engineered this way, will never be on par with BMW's.

[Sir_GT]

Believe what you want my friend, but you're basically buying a Golf with a better interior. If you choose the Quattro model, then you're buying a Golf 4motion with a better interior.

Why do you think Audi has their engines installed in that way? It's not because of optimal weight balance... everybody knows that it actually creates the opposite effect, and gives the cars horrible understeer and steering feel. The reason why the engines are placed that way is because the chassis used is meant to be a for a front-wheel drive Volkswagen. This is also why non-Quattro Audi's are front-wheel drive. The Quattro system simply sends power to all four wheels, but even so, cannot counteract the physical imbalance of the engine (and most of the componentry) being so far forward. This is why the front overhangs of VW's and Audi's are massive.

If you compare this to another car, all you have to do is look at the mk I Lexus IS/Toyota Altezza. It is the same car, with the former possesing a better interior. Thing is, that car was meant to compete against the 3-series, hence the excellent handling, and performance-biased weight distribution brought about by the bespoke rear-wheel drive setup.

If VW starts building rear-wheel drive cars, and then Audi converts them to Quattro's, then I wouldn't be surprised if they started matching or surpassing their other German rivals. But, until that time comes (if it ever does), then they will always have to settle for 3rd best.

[RC45]

Wan't this topic about the M5 vs F430 at one time? :P

[TransAm]

Wan't this topic about the M5 vs F430 at one time? :P

Pot kettle black :P

(Yes I am a complete hypocrite saying this, being the TJ king :lol: )

[RC45]

Wan't this topic about the M5 vs F430 at one time? :P

Pot kettle black :P

(Yes I am a complete hypocrite saying this, being the TJ king :lol: )

:)

[bmwdakias]

Here is a pic of the Z06, i hope that any hint of disbilief is now gone. I really like corvettes and i even prefer them from many established european sports cars but i am not gonna say anything more because the topic as you allready mentioned is about the M5 and the F430.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/7315/dsc005130am.th.jpg (http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc005130am.jpg)

[RC45]

Here is a pic of the Z06, i hope that any hint of disbilief is now gone. I really like corvettes and i even prefer them from many established european sports cars but i am not gonna say anything more because the topic as you allready mentioned is about the M5 and the F430.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/7315/dsc005130am.th.jpg (http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc005130am.jpg)

Well - a random picture hardly constitutes proof of anything - besides you tried a backhanded jab basing the video game as proof that the M5 is quicker - and as I made the video I am telling you it was staged the way it was for the purposes of a making a video.

As in the Z06 was driven slower/behind to keep both cars as close to "in frame" as possibe.

So - again, you lobbed a brick and I simply side stepped.

[bmwdakias]

You have to be joiking, i didn't even watch the video and certainly i would never form an opinion according to a game. I was joiking when i said the thing about the bus and the ass and believe me i dont need to show off by telling you bullshit about my brother having a vette. If you need any other proof i would be glad to provide you with it. Aaa and something else, in my family there is also a 1991 ZR-1,1971 stingray convertible and a 1986 C4 convertible. Thats all.Allways glad to give you some pics.

[RC45]

You have to be joiking, i didn't even watch the video and certainly i would never form an opinion according to a game.

I was joiking when i said the thing about the bus and the ass and

In what context would you have been talking then? Unless you just wanyed to trhough some random shit out there.


believe me i dont need to show off by telling you bullshit about my brother having a vette. If you need any other proof i would be glad to provide you with it. Aaa and something else, in my family there is also a 1991 ZR-1,1971 stingray convertible and a 1986 C4 convertible. Thats all.Allways glad to give you some pics.
I wouldn't go bragging too much about Vettes in your family - you are likely to get the rest of the forum all riled up about your families redneck ties. :!:

[SFDMALEX]

You have to be joiking, i didn't even watch the video and certainly i would never form an opinion according to a game.


Well its not exactly a game, its a mediocre simulator. medicore :wink:

but frankly I dont give a shit about that vulgar M5, it can beat the Enzo for all I care, its still an ugly saloon, nothing like the old one.....

[RC45]

You have to be joiking, i didn't even watch the video and certainly i would never form an opinion according to a game.


Well its not exactly a game, its a mediocre simulator. medicore :wink:


WHOA!!! You said "simulation" in reference to GT4 ;) :P

[SFDMALEX]

You have to be joiking, i didn't even watch the video and certainly i would never form an opinion according to a game.


Well its not exactly a game, its a mediocre simulator. medicore :wink:


WHOA!!! You said "simulation" in reference to GT4 ;) :P

Well even NFS can handel straight line driving physics when the correct data is plugged in :wink: :lol:

[bmwdakias]

You have to be joiking, i didn't even watch the video and certainly i would never form an opinion according to a game.

I was joiking when i said the thing about the bus and the ass and

In what context would you have been talking then? Unless you just wanyed to trhough some random shit out there.



believe me i dont need to show off by telling you bullshit about my brother having a vette. If you need any other proof i would be glad to provide you with it. Aaa and something else, in my family there is also a 1991 ZR-1,1971 stingray convertible and a 1986 C4 convertible. Thats all.Allways glad to give you some pics.
I wouldn't go bragging too much about Vettes in your family - you are likely to get the rest of the forum all riled up about your families redneck ties. :!:

It is as simple as that, i do believe that the new M5 is a fabulous and technologically advanced car with one of the best engines ever produced. It has one of the fastest sequential gearboxes, it handles, it brakes and it can accomodate 5 passengers offering all the gimmicks and amentities that any person will ever need from a car.So trying to support my opinion on a car like this isn't a hard job, the product sells itself. It is crystal clear, this is the best car in its segment and it can also compete against a Ferrari (a true sports car) which is without doubt very flattering for a 'BUS'. So i dont think i am just throwing shit around, i was just expressing my belief in a colourfull way :P.


Again what are you talking about? Who is going to get riled up? We are all open minded here :P and we just happen to like vettes in contrast with many Europeans. I dont think that i should worry for just saying that i like corvettes. Thank you for the friendly warning though :P

Again people continue saything things like the M5 is ugly etc. I believe that you should get over that, taste is something subjective so i respect your opinion but you are getting tiring and dull.

[RC45]

A couple thigs - first the car will struggle to keep it's poise in the hands of meere mortals with 5 people on board.

Second - the E60 M5 is an ugly arsed pile.

[Just_me]

Second - the E60 M5 is an ugly arsed pile.

This thread still alive. Well, I disagree :wink:

[RC45]

Second - the E60 M5 is an ugly arsed pile.

This thread still alive. Well, I disagree :wink:

And that's the energy that keeps the world revolting... I mean revolving.. :)

[RC45]

^^ wasn't the Audi 100/500 Quattro sedan banned from every class of road racing - after they forced them to carry 200kgs+ of ballast....

...becuse the Quattro sedan simply "understeered" it's way to victory against every car even driven... ;)

I hate to side with Big B... but I loved the sound and sight of the 5 cycliner turbo quattro destroying everything in sight :D

[Sir_GT]

RC45: You're talking about a different era of Audi.

Brembo: FYI, I used to drive an A4 Quattro and a BMW 3-series (our family cars) before I got the 120d.

Also, the Audi that took Pikes Peak was no ordinary Audi. That's just like saying the Audi Le Mans team are directly connected with manufacturing the road cars. They're not. They're the racing arm. I have much respect for Audi in the realms of motorsport. I grew up admiring the original rally-killing Quattro (I still possess my old Tamiya Quattro RC from 1980-something).

But... the Audi road cars are something else. They're rebodied VW's. If Audi eventually starts building bespoke chassis (audi only) for their road cars, then I'll be happy to part with my money for one of their cars. But until then, I'll never be convinced that something which is honestly a VW in a suit is worth as much as a purpose-built BMW or Mercedes.

Also, the poser tag-line doesn't hold. There are posers driving Audi's as well (especially A4 cabrio drivers...crikey). And Merc's, and Honda's, and whatever. There will always be posers regardless of the brand of car.

If there's any criticism that I think holds true with BMW's, it's what the Top Gear crew talked about recently: that BMW's are becoming way too common. I agree wholeheartedly. Thing is, the reason why BMW's are so damn plentiful is because everybody knows it's the most logical brand to buy... because they're just better than every other car for the same amount of money.

[Just_me]

:mrgreen: Brembo you're hilarious

[Sir_GT]

you are correct there are posers driving most good brands, but BMW got the most of them and you are a good example of it your posts on JW about BMW proves that, and you have indirectly admitted it by your "it looks expensive" comments......

I never said that... I said Audi's look expensive but they aren't. :)

Besides, I don't even know why you keep pointing out how "a lot" of posers own BMW's as if it was an inferiority representative of the car's engineering. It simply isn't. You're merely trying to find mud to sling because there isn't anything else you can say against BMW's.

There's no shame in admitting that you're favorite brand is inferior to it's rival anyway. My personal favorite brand/car company is Maserati, and I would be the first to admit that their engineering is nowhere near BMW's. That's just facts, and there's no denying it.

Just as it is a fact that Audi's are inferior to BMW's. No shame in admitting it.

Honestly, like I said, I have nothing but respect for Audi when it comes to motorsport, but those cars are far too heavily tweaked to be considered remotely close to their road car counterparts.

The A4 DTM is a perfect example... they use the same chassis, but the modifications are so severe that the race driver is sitting where the rear seats should have been, because the engine was moved so far back to improve the balance.

All you've been saying is that if you modify Audi's enough, it can match BMW.

IF

YOU

MODIFY

AN

AUDI

ENOUGH...



THEN


AND ONLY THEN





...can it match a BMW.


So you can mock Bimmer owners's pride of their 50/50 cars, but the fact remains that as far as buying standard (stock... y'know? without having to modify them?) German cars go, the closest you can get to a proper performance car is a BMW.

[Zrated]

I think it's a biased test. Considering the F430 can accelerate to 100 in like NOTHING, and has near hp and tq of the heavier M5. Sure put a crpa driver in the ferrari and a good driver and the M5 and my bet would be the F430 can't shake him. i SHOULD win the comparo tho not for performance but practicality with the perfromance it offers and the price u pay for it. but all out carnage= ferrari on twisties. I'm surprised anyway and article liket his make me question the validity of autocar.

[Just_me]

[quote="Sir_GT"][quote=brembo]

I`ll give you one thing tough, you sure fit the bill as a Bimmer boy, so you had no choice than to get your self a entry level bimmer so you could say "I got a BMW".....lol Im sure it feels great to say that for you...... :lol:


Vorsprung durch technik

He might sound like a Bimmer boy but you sound like a Audi boy :wink:

[Sir_GT]

I've actually never said that to anyone ("I've got a BMW"). What for? Everyone in the UK drives a BMW anyway.

And at least I'm not going around chanting "vorsprung durch technik" like it was a spell as if I was some sort of Lord of the Rings fanatic.

[RC45]

Well - every Bimmer Boy I come across is always trying to prove a point - of some kind.. ;)

[Sir_GT]

I've actually never said that to anyone ("I've got a BMW"). What for? Everyone in the UK drives a BMW anyway.

And at least I'm not going around chanting "vorsprung durch technik" like it was a spell as if I was some sort of Lord of the Rings fanatic.


LOL.....ok if you say so, it got to be so....but to buy a slow BMW like you have done and then preach about how well they handle sounds kind of stupid yes you got a BMW and some of them handle well and are fast, yours aint........
If you are about handling and such why dont you buy a car that actually need handling and are fast...... :roll:


I never chant "BMW = 50/50" either. I never say, or have said, anything like that. I am a big fan of ANY car that has proper weight distribution and a fantastic chassis, whether it be a Mazda MX-5 or a Maserati Gransport or a Porsche 911 GT3. I merely point out the facts.

I've never even said that my car is why BMW's are so good... It's a lovely piece of work, and it's quite nippy (but not hot hatchback nippy), but I've never called it anywhere near "best in class" for any reason whatsoever.

I've never said anything as proposterous as that.

What I find hilarious is that you actually have to get personal and sling mud at me and my car just so that you've got something to say. If you look at all my posts, you'll find that I've never criticised you, or the car you drive. I'm sorry mate, but that just shows how desparate you're becoming just to be able to back up your losing argument.


No you dont chant vorsprung, you chant 50/50 weight distribution as it seem you belive thats the only thing that makes a car fast......but by all means cling to your belife boy....

I never said that 50/50 weight distribution "makes" a car go fast either. BUT a properly balanced car does allow the driver to exploit the car's abilities better, rather than forcing him to compromise and work around it's weaknesses. Porsche 911's don't have 50/50 weight distribution, but I don't have a single sliver of doubt that a 911 will blow away an M3 on pretty much any road or circuit there is. That's just a fact.

The same way that it's a fact that stock Audi's are inferior to stock BMW's. Everybody knows it. Even the guys from Top Gear know it. Even the guys from 5th Gear know it. All the journalists know it. Even privateer circuit racers know it. That's why you have privateers joining races like the BTCC and the like with Porsche CS's and M3 CSL's.

The only time you'll ever see an Audi used by a privateer is when it has been heavily (and when I mean heavy, I mean A4 DTM - engine moved way back - driver sitting in the rear seats- heavy) modified.

If they're being raced but not heavily modded, then they're always factory run. Bloody hell, talk about evidence in court. :roll:

The whole bloody world knows it.

Audi's are so blatantly guilty of understeer they make Michael Jackson look like he goes muff-diving on old ladies.

Except for people like you who insist otherwise.

Like I said, you believe what you want to believe, but at the end of the day, Audi's are just VW's in a dress. It's still the same fat, bow-legged cow, but this time its had its hair done, and wears a Chanel gown instead of an Adidas tracksuit.

but it STILL can't dance.

[RC45]

I never chant "BMW = 50/50" either. I never say, or have said, anything like that. I am a big fan of ANY car that has proper weight distribution and a fantastic chassis, whether it be a Mazda MX-5 or a Maserati Gransport or a Porsche 911 GT3. I merely point out the facts.

ANy car? Puhlease - I can name one that you seem to think is a POS even though it kicks arse everywhere it goes ;)


Like I said, you believe what you want to believe, but at the end of the day, Audi's are just VW's in a dress. It's still the same fat, bow-legged cow, but this time its had its hair done, and wears a Chanel gown instead of an Adidas tracksuit.

but it STILL can't dance.

ACtually - if anything, VW's are dressed down Audi's :P

Oh - and I just got back from the Home Depot (was out buying some pink lawn flamingo's :P) and on the way home - what happenes when I get to the stop light into our subdivision - why, it's a BMW Kid - uhm - I mean BMW Man and his 540i - I have no idea what he was thinking, but by the time we got the second stop sign, he wouldn't even look over to my side :) hehe

It could have been the fact that not once, but twise I gave a 2 car lead from a standstill and passed him as I shifted into second.

BMW dreamers.. ;)

[Sir_GT]

I never chant "BMW = 50/50" either. I never say, or have said, anything like that. I am a big fan of ANY car that has proper weight distribution and a fantastic chassis, whether it be a Mazda MX-5 or a Maserati Gransport or a Porsche 911 GT3. I merely point out the facts.

ANy car? Puhlease - I can name one that you seem to think is a POS even though it kicks arse everywhere it goes ;)


Such as?


...I'm not going to even bother commenting on the rest of your post. You could've run into any other car with the same type of driver anyway.

[RC45]

^^Well - have you ever given credit for the fantastic balance, poise and chassis that the C5 Z and C6 Z have?

[Just_me]

^^Well - have you ever given credit for the fantastic balance, poise and chassis that the C5 Z and C6 Z have?

is it the only good thing with vettes? :wink:

[RC45]

^^Well - have you ever given credit for the fantastic balance, poise and chassis that the C5 Z and C6 Z have?

is it the only good thing with vettes? :wink:

In a perfromance car, that is all that counts - can it g fast, turn and stop - better than others.

Posing, "interior appointments" and other shit is reserved for BMW lovers :)

[Sir_GT]

The same way that it's a fact that stock Audi's are inferior to stock BMW's. Everybody knows it. Even the guys from Top Gear know it. Even the guys from 5th Gear know it. All the journalists know it. Even privateer circuit racers know it. That's why you have privateers joining races like the BTCC and the like with Porsche CS's and M3 CSL's.

The whole bloody world knows it.

Audi's are so blatantly guilty of understeer they make Michael Jackson look like he goes muff-diving on old ladies.

but it STILL can't dance.

I find it strange that you say the guys at Top gear knows it when a STOCK Audi s4 beat a STOCK BMW M3 with close to one second around that small track..... :roll: :fist:

I dont throw shit at you or your car any more than you are throwing shit at me and my car, you claim my car undeerster so bad its almost undriveable as its not a heavy modified Audi...still EVO magazine praised its handling and cornering abilities when they tested it......you my friend are nothing more than a poser, and until you learn something about the cars you are about to discuss, you really shouldnt.......now go check out
the new prada handbags for men collection....


RS Audi's are as STOCK as M-tuned BMW's.

Those aren't "stock" cars, IMO.

An E55 isn't a stock E-class. An M5 isn't a stock 5-series. The RS6 isn't a stock A6. Those cars aren't produced alongside their regular "stock" counterparts on conveyor belts.


Which is why I've NEVER criticized YOUR car.


*shrugs*

If anything, it's you who needs to learn more about cars.

[Sir_GT]

^^Well - have you ever given credit for the fantastic balance, poise and chassis that the C5 Z and C6 Z have?

That's a touch unfair. I've never criticized those cars for their balance, poise, and chassis. I do find the suspension a bit archaic, but so is the 05 Mustang's, and I love that car.

[Sir_GT]

I'll try to explain what I mean in bullet form...



standard Audi's (A2,A3,A4,A6,A8) are rebodied VW's.

standard BMW's (1-series, 3-series, X3, X5, 5-series, 6-series, 7-series) are superior to standard Audi's.

RS Audi's aren't standard cars. Neither are M cars, or AMG's. You can drive them everyday, but that doesn't mean they are standard/stock cars.

I have nothing but respect for Audi in the realms of motorsport.

According to Top Gear, 5th Gear, et al... standard BMW's are better than standard Audi's.

According to Top Gear the S4 is quicker than an M3. By the same token, the M5 destroys the S6.

I never criticised, or intended to criticise, your car.




Capiche?


And yes I need to learn more about cars, thats why I spend parts of my sparetime building cars, tuning cars, taking them to the track and in general getting dirty learning about them.....


Isn't this why we're all jabba members?


You my friend need to get some nice matching shoes to go with that prada bag.....

I honestly never knew that they made prada bags for men. In fact, it's quite amusing that you did. ;)


...although I do need new sneakers. Any suggestions? ;)

[pharzo]

The s4 may have beaten the m3, and the rs4 will also beat the m3, but the bmw equivalent of the rs4 is the m3 csl. The csl was 3 seconds faster around the track than the s4...it's 300 kg's lighter than the rs4. It's a thoroughbred racer with a history that is long and distinguished. The rs4 is a beetle with awd... :lol: :wink:

Brembo you must stop with the handbag nonsense...its only making one person here look fruity :wink:

hint:it's not sir_gt

[Sir_GT]

I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree, cuz I look at the RS and M models as standard cars....a modified one would have to be done something to, and I mean more than a exhaust and chip that doesnt qualify as a mod IMO.....

By this and the fact that you nowhere stated that you didnt count S and RS models in when you compared them to BMW`s and said they where inferior to the BMW`s you talked down every Audi including the S and RS ones.....wich are superior....

I have said several times that I dont call it an true Audi if it lacks quattro (convertibles aside)


This is where we will have to agree to disagree. To me, an Audi, even with Quattro, is inferior to a BMW, and they can only match them if they're modded (S or RS).


I dont care if you talk crap about my car really, what bugs me are you made a statment where you included all Audi`s as undeerstering crap.....wich are far from the truth and the S models can hang with the bimmers easily while the RS models kills the M.....
So talking every day beater you think the BMW are the best, but when it comes to the cars that should really perform the Audi are the best ones???


Again we'll have to agree to disagree. I do feel that standard Audi's (Quattros included, S and RS ones excluded) possess inferior handling compared to BMW's.

Also, it's a touch unfair to compare RS with M models. The real comparisons are between the S and M models. That's the reason why the S models are simlarly priced to the M models, and why the RS models are nearly £10,000 more expensive.

With that in mind, like I've said, the S4 may have beaten the old M3, but the old M5 did beat the old S6. Thing is, I highly doubt that the current S4 will beat the upcoming M3, and there I also doubt that the current S6 will beat the M5. That's just my opinion, and until we get some proper comparison tests, it would be pointless to argue about it.

What WILL be a disappointment is if the new RS4 doesn't eclipse the upcoming M3. Then the £10,000 price excess will end up unjustified. With that, we'll have to wait and see.


ok works for me.... :P ..I dont care if its a BMW or an Audi,I dont plan on getting me a boring slow non handler anytime soon .....


So... what would you equate as a boring slow handler? The Mazda MX-5 has fantastic handling, but the 120d is quicker than that, and has the chassis, engine, and suspension found in the E90 320d... which is superior to the equivalent Audi A4. ;)


LOL on the prada bags, you know there are more brands with bags than your thrusted Versace one.....and I dont think you would mind having a girls bag either since you went for the chick car...... :P sorry just had to give you a little one.... :wink:

Sorry, but That doesn't hold water at all.

Keep in mind that CAR magazine even included the 120d in their PCoTY, making top 5, and edging out pretty much everything save for the performance cars. EVO magazine said that the 120d is pretty much the best performing small hatchback in its class, and Top Gear magazine chose it over its rivals as well.

I think the biggest difference is that because you hate the badge (BMW) and the design, you refuse to acknowledge what a good car they have in the 1-series, whereas I have nothing against the Audi badge, or their design, but I will always rather invest in the best car I can get for the money.

And according to the test drives, and to those who are more knowledgeable than we, the best was the 120d.

That and the fact that the wife didn't like the A3's look, and if we were to choose the Golf GTI, the dealership service would've been rubbish, and both the Audi and Golf would've cost the same as the 120d in the end, but would've lost more in the depreciation.

[bmwdakias]

You are saying that BMW is being destroyed when we see BMW's sales rising constantly. This fact clearly depicts the acceptance of the new design direction introduced by the American designer. The infamous E65 has been the best selling 7 series up to date and sales of the whole range have been strong. You might not like BMWs when looks come into consideration but saying that they dont handle well anymore! thats totally outargeous. They might be getting heavier for the shake of the increasing demand for luxury gimmicks and safety features but they will still outhandle anything in their segment not matter which category you look into. If you dont like the BMW interiors at all,just have a look at the new s class and you ll notice that it reminds you of something. In the near future everything will simply make sense, BMW has brought in a new era in the interior design and others are simply immitating,(AUDI-Mercedes) introducing their own versions of i-drive, placing the screen on the same height as the rest of the other instruments etc.

[JoeHahn]

You are saying that BMW is being destroyed when we see BMW's sales rising constantly. This fact clearly depicts the acceptance of the new design direction introduced by the American designer. The infamous E65 has been the best selling 7 series up to date and sales of the whole range have been strong. You might not like BMWs when looks come into consideration but saying that they dont handle well anymore! thats totally outargeous. They might be getting heavier for the shake of the increasing demand for luxury gimmicks and safety features but they will still outhandle anything in their segment not matter which category you look into. If you dont like the BMW interiors at all,just have a look at the new s class and you ll notice that it reminds you of something. In the near future everything will simply make sense, BMW has brought in a new era in the interior design and others are simply immitating,(AUDI-Mercedes) introducing their own versions of i-drive, placing the screen on the same height as the rest of the other instruments etc.

Audi has in no way copied the 7-Series or any BMW for that fact when it comes to interior design. I would also be more confident in the handling of an aluminium bodied A8 than that of a 7-Series.

[pharzo]

You are saying that BMW is being destroyed when we see BMW's sales rising constantly. This fact clearly depicts the acceptance of the new design direction introduced by the American designer. The infamous E65 has been the best selling 7 series up to date and sales of the whole range have been strong. You might not like BMWs when looks come into consideration but saying that they dont handle well anymore! thats totally outargeous. They might be getting heavier for the shake of the increasing demand for luxury gimmicks and safety features but they will still outhandle anything in their segment not matter which category you look into. If you dont like the BMW interiors at all,just have a look at the new s class and you ll notice that it reminds you of something. In the near future everything will simply make sense, BMW has brought in a new era in the interior design and others are simply immitating,(AUDI-Mercedes) introducing their own versions of i-drive, placing the screen on the same height as the rest of the other instruments etc.

Audi has in no way copied the 7-Series or any BMW for that fact when it comes to interior design. I would also be more confident in the handling of an aluminium bodied A8 than that of a 7-Series.

hmmm :roll:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6266/audia81ct.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=audia81ct.jpg)

[Just_me]

AUTO INDUSTRY REPORT: BMW global car sales up
July 7, 2005

BMW AG said Wednesday that worldwide sales of its cars rose nearly 12% in June and 9% for the first six months of the year.

The Munich, Germany-based company said exact figures on the number of cars sold would be released today.

CEO Helmut Panke said BMW is on track for 2005 sales and pretax earnings similar to 2004, when it posted a pretax profit of 3.5 billion euros ($4.2 billion) on revenue of 44.3 billion euros ($52.8 billion).

He said BMW sales were boosted by increased demand for its new 3-series.

"After the 3-series sedan has been introduced on the Asian and American markets in the second quarter, we expect more impetus going forward," Panke said.


http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/irep7e_20050707.htm

[RC45]

^^ Yessireeeee the new Beemers are uuuuuuuuugly... :P ;)

[Just_me]

^^ Yessireeeee the new Beemers are uuuuuuuuugly... :P ;)

No way in hell, they are beautiful :P ;)

[Just_me]

You are saying that BMW is being destroyed when we see BMW's sales rising constantly. This fact clearly depicts the acceptance of the new design direction introduced by the American designer. The infamous E65 has been the best selling 7 series up to date and sales of the whole range have been strong. You might not like BMWs when looks come into consideration but saying that they dont handle well anymore! thats totally outargeous. They might be getting heavier for the shake of the increasing demand for luxury gimmicks and safety features but they will still outhandle anything in their segment not matter which category you look into. If you dont like the BMW interiors at all,just have a look at the new s class and you ll notice that it reminds you of something. In the near future everything will simply make sense, BMW has brought in a new era in the interior design and others are simply immitating,(AUDI-Mercedes) introducing their own versions of i-drive, placing the screen on the same height as the rest of the other instruments etc.


What the fuck is it with you BMW people and knowing what tree you bark at.....
I have never said the handling of newer BMW`s are gone..I have NEVER said that and will NEVER say it either......learn to read and understand what you are reading before you reply to anything.......

I say BMW are destroyed by the new looks of it and I stand by it, It doesnt matter how many cars they sell.....how the hell could they go from one of the most beautifull cars on the market to something that have rear lights of a primera wagon...(new 3 series)
The sales are good yes, and the X5 and X3 cover alot of it.....also the new 3 series do that of course as BMW got alot of followers who will buy anything with the kidneys on.......I know a guy who admits he thinks the new 3 series are ugly, still he buys it cuz he just have to buy it since its the new one....(yes I told him I think he is an idiot for buying something he dont even think looks that good)
Its not unusual that sales rise after a new model have been launched either as alot of people wait for the new model to be released...same story with every brand who got followers.....

To have the screen at that height are not magic or some einstein move its just that its the best place to have it to allow the driver to use it without having to look down.....
I dont care if Audi use a one button thingy I dont like it there either so dont play the blind Audi head card on me......

And I know people who like them and buy them. Design is so subjective and not worth to disuss, we all think different.

[pharzo]

^^ Yessireeeee the new Beemers are uuuuuuuuugly... :P ;)


You know he was just waiting for that one :wink:

[RC45]

^^ Yessireeeee the new Beemers are uuuuuuuuugly... :P ;)

At least we agree alot on this issue RC..... :lol: :wink:

I saw an A8 yesterday (pulling out of an executive BP facility :P you gotta love oil money :P) - it was a silver colour that in the sun looked like brushed aluminium... it is such a timeless and stately shaped car... :)

Awesome stuff.. :)

[666fast]

IMO, the only thing BMW has over Audi is resale values.

[Toronto]

^^^^ and better rims :D

[RC45]

^^^^ and better rims :D

Sure they do...

http://www.roadfly.org/bmw/gallery/photos/photos-06-2004/30-2797000.JPG http://www.roadfly.org/bmw/gallery/photos/photos-01-2004/16-6414073.jpg

[bmagni]

I saw an A8 yesterday (pulling out of an executive BP facility :P you gotta love oil money :P) - it was a silver colour that in the sun looked like brushed aluminium... it is such a timeless and stately shaped car... :)

Awesome stuff.. :)

what ??? the A8 isnt that much of a nice car, it sure has a smooth line but thats about it, and it isnt that great, the grill is really awful, and the head and tail lights arent that good either.

IMO, the only thing BMW has over Audi is resale values.

lol, thats funny, not to mention how audis get owned by bimmers

i dont know why people complain so much about the bmw's design, i know the pre face lifted 7 series looks that good, but it doesnt look bad, but the actual one looks really good, and not to mention the 5er, people just dont like it cause they didnt like the 7 series and they just follow the trend of not liking the bangle design. The new 3 looks better than the past one, much more agressive, though i would have prefered better tail lights. I dont say you have to like BMWs, just dont exagerate.
Ugly ?? GMs, Pontiacs, Chryslers, Fords, those are ugly cars.

[RC45]

A coworker dove her paper-licence plate new 3 series BMW to work today.

Oh my farginghell - it is a hodgepodge with no flow. http://www.z06vette.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_puke.gif

There was an E46 a couple cars over - and what a beautiful design... the new one just plain sucks.

BMW has taken the "family look" too far.

[Sir_GT]

Here we go again... :|

[bmwdakias]

You are saying that BMW is being destroyed when we see BMW's sales rising constantly. This fact clearly depicts the acceptance of the new design direction introduced by the American designer. The infamous E65 has been the best selling 7 series up to date and sales of the whole range have been strong. You might not like BMWs when looks come into consideration but saying that they dont handle well anymore! thats totally outargeous. They might be getting heavier for the shake of the increasing demand for luxury gimmicks and safety features but they will still outhandle anything in their segment not matter which category you look into. If you dont like the BMW interiors at all,just have a look at the new s class and you ll notice that it reminds you of something. In the near future everything will simply make sense, BMW has brought in a new era in the interior design and others are simply immitating,(AUDI-Mercedes) introducing their own versions of i-drive, placing the screen on the same height as the rest of the other instruments etc.


What the fuck is it with you BMW people and knowing what tree you bark at.....
I have never said the handling of newer BMW`s are gone..I have NEVER said that and will NEVER say it either......learn to read and understand what you are reading before you reply to anything.......

I say BMW are destroyed by the new looks of it and I stand by it, It doesnt matter how many cars they sell.....how the hell could they go from one of the most beautifull cars on the market to something that have rear lights of a primera wagon...(new 3 series)
The sales are good yes, and the X5 and X3 cover alot of it.....also the new 3 series do that of course as BMW got alot of followers who will buy anything with the kidneys on.......I know a guy who admits he thinks the new 3 series are ugly, still he buys it cuz he just have to buy it since its the new one....(yes I told him I think he is an idiot for buying something he dont even think looks that good)
Its not unusual that sales rise after a new model have been launched either as alot of people wait for the new model to be released...same story with every brand who got followers.....

To have the screen at that height are not magic or some einstein move its just that its the best place to have it to allow the driver to use it without having to look down.....
I dont care if Audi use a one button thingy I dont like it there either so dont play the blind Audi head card on me......

Just read the whole of your previous post(i hadnt before) and realised that nothing bad was said about the balance and handling of BMWs. It is the mere pation to support your preffered badge that blind me, :P . I do know the reason for placing the screen at this height, what i wanted to point out is that BMW was the first to make this move. The new three series might have rear lights that look like the designers were left out of ideas but the rest of the car has nothing that its not easy to the eye. The Bangle effects have been derated therefore i dont think that it can be called ugly, but then again i dont think that any BMW (from the e65 and forward) can be called ugly.