GTR Review

[SFDMALEX]

Long read, but it summarizes it pretty well, not really an intertainment peice of software afterall, aimed at a different market...



There are simulations, and then there's GTR. Simbin's lovingly crafted game observes such painstaking attention to detail that even an electron microscope would struggle to do it justice. It'd give the average Need For Speed Underground fan a nosebleed from 100 paces; and that's just in Arcade mode.

Being a racing game fan and a racing fan are quite clearly two very different things, so I apologise in advance to the racing aficionados for my utter ignorance of what the FIA GT championship is all about. My excuse is I'm too busy playing the games to have a real life, okay? Don't hurt me. Apparently it's now in its eighth season and forms part of the LG Super Racing Weekend. As such, GTR leaves no stone unturned in its quest for authenticity, with all the supercars your heart could desire (over 70 race cars, including Porsche 911, BMW Z3 M and Viper GTS-R), all 10 circuits lovingly recreated (Monza, Donington, et al) and 70 AI opponents to, you know, pit your wits (or wit your pits) against. That's the perfunctory 'features' blurb taken care of: what about the game?

Arcade? [laughs out loud]
AdvertisementIt's important to note - before we get into how much GTR turns out to be a petrolhead's (there, we got it out of the way, third paragraph in, we can move on) wet dream - that it's not all about the simulation aspect. An arcade mode makes life somewhat easier on poor fragile souls not quite up to the rigours of big, hirsute, grown-up driving, with four difficulty levels allowing you to basically dip into any track and drive with any car.

The Sunday Driver level is undoubtedly where most gamers will want to start, giving you a quick three lapper, every conceivable driving aid and a somewhat underpowered AI to give an almost guaranteed victory once you've got a feel for the handling and the track layouts. It's sad to note that we're apparently not much better than Sunday Drivers after 25 years of playing driving games, but this is what most gamers will face when they try and drive GTR like a videogame. It's quite clearly so above being a mere videogame. This is feckin' science at work here.

Moving up through the ranks is as tough as expected. At first you'll routinely win any course with any car you choose. Move up a notch and they'll be snapping at your heels, but it's not tough to burst through the pack and take the lead. But the third of the four difficulty settings will wipe any trace of smug satisfaction off your chops as it suddenly becomes a real trial to get anywhere near the front, while staying there requires professional levels of racing knowledge; not just the right racing line, but the right revs, gears, you name it. Even an hour of determined practise will tame the flightiest soul. You quickly know precisely what you're up against. It's a brutal introduction to the main Semi Pro/Simulation dish which will really give any serious racing fan a run for their money, and probably lap them in the process and give a cheery wave.

The quest for the holy racing grail



What is slightly surprising, given how far SimBin has gone in its quest for realism and detail, is how GTR simply gives gamers the option to race every car on every track right from the very beginning. Unlike virtually every other racing game released over the past decade, there's literally no structure, no bona-fide arcade championship or campaign mode to get stuck into. Just all the cars, all the tracks, off you go. I don't know about you, but I believe that the best way to encourage players to hone their driving skills is building a structured sequence of progressively difficult racing competitions that they gradually battle through. This is simple common game design sense, and without it you're literally offered everything, with barely any incentive to play any of it other than offering you much needed practise in order to stand even the remotest chance of being equipped to tackle the Semi Pro and Simulation modes.

It doesn't help that from the very beginning you have a bewildering array of cars to choose from. As good as that might sound to old hands with an intimate knowledge of the car industry, mere videogamers who just want to be entertained by a decent driving game will doubtlessly feel slightly intimidated by all of this. Not only do you have little idea of how they compare to one another, you really won't know where to start. The best part of games like TOCA Race Driver 2 and GT4 is this sense that you're always getting better cars as you go along. You drive well, you get rewarded with a better car, and you can genuinely feel the difference instantly. With GTR it's a case of trial and endless error and with no prescribed learning curve to follow you'll simply flounder.

If you're not already a massive driving buff with an oceanic reserve of patience then all of this choice will be lost on the casual player, which is admittedly how I approached the game. I'm somewhat torn by all of this: as much as it's somewhat nice not to have to go through hoops to get access to all of the good cars, it also means SimBin has effectively passed up the opportunity to coax the less informed driving gamers into what is in most other respects a remarkable achievement. More accurately, Arcade mode is simply a Practice mode by any other name. This game is crying out for a decent structure to provide the hook; as it stands it's intimidation by gaming.

Noobs beware



But if you're prepared to overlook the Arcade mode's deficiencies then there's a game lurking within with (almost too) much to admire if your head is already loaded with technical knowledge about the finer points of understeering on the apex, warming your tyres, adjustable seats (true), three dimensional curbs and all the intricate technical knickknacks you could possibly wish for. Some might find it utterly boring, but, really, this game is simply not for them. Be wary of this fact right away. Instantly accessible this is not. It makes TOCA look like Burnout.

Essentially it's a case of plumping for Semi Pro or Simulation; the latter being largely the same apart from the obvious change of difficulty in terms of car control and minute amounts of periphery considerations in each race such as the 'behaviour' of the circuits (in terms of weather effects, rubber on the track etc) and the ability to turn off every single driving aid. Each mode comes with Race Weekend, Championship or Open Practice, each allowing racing fetishists to follow the exact same convention of practise sessions, qualifying - or just skip the lot and get straight to the main event.

The main modes are simply a brutal illustration of racing gaming science. There's practically nothing more SimBin could have done to make the game any more realistic than it is in terms of the driving physics and how the car physically reacts to the environment. It's getting close to the limit of what you can do on a PC to recreate a driving experience. Of course, no matter how accurate the physics may be, there's still one very important factor no driving game could ever represent - that of actually being in the car itself. It would be very interesting indeed to see how a real professional driver gets on with GTR, because without the real force feedback of the road and things like peripheral vision there's simply nothing anyone can do to simulate that adequately without some insane hydraulics solution and a VR headset. SimBin has tried to solve the latter issue by even going as far as providing TrackIR support, which somehow manages to scan where you're looking and adjusts the in-game camera automatically, but without the necessary hardware I wasn't able to try that cunning-sounding feature out. You can always map it to a joypad (as I did with the rather excellent dual stick wireless Logitech Rumblepad 2, which comes highly recommended, by the way), but it's something of an added distraction when it's already really hard work keeping your car on the road as it is.

Only the oil was missing



In terms of the rest of GTR, as a visual spectacle you can't help but feel it's one of the only things left that could be improved in terms of accurately simulating the sport. As things stand, even with a beefy Geforce 6800 GT under the bonnet, the game doesn't quite leave us quite as breathless as we were expecting. The cars are truly exceptional, but what lets it down ultimately is the generally flat and lifeless trackside detail, a few inexplicable frame rate hitches (where the game noticeably stutters every so often regardless of resolution) and less than stellar weather effects. Sure, you can feel the difference when it's pelting it down, but we were left with the sense that what we were seeing didn't really do the handling effects justice. What we really need at this advanced stage in the PC's history is a next-gen racer that not only pushes the physics envelope but looks the part too. GTR never really gets close to that elusive sense of photo realism that we all want someone to nail at some point.

What you're left with is a stunning simulator that true racing enthusiasts will be able to marvel at for months, but one that will be an incredibly daunting prospect for those of us just merely looking for racing entertainment. It truly goes off the scale in terms of difficulty if you've any intention whatsoever of playing it remotely seriously, and I've never come across anything quite this brutal. Even professional racing drivers would have a tough job, which begs the question whether it's really fair to rate it as an entertainment product? It's a marvellous achievement on paper, but our real-world experiences felt like a whole lot of hard work. Ultimately I have to try to score it as fairly as I can from our my perspective as a gamer who wants to be entertained and also appreciates what it's trying to do. There's definitely lots to recommend about it, and what you put in will be rewarded in time. But maybe I'm just not the sort of person that has the patience or the will to get so heavily involved, so take my opinion as a guide of simply what I think, not necessarily what its target audience thinks. Much like the driving in GTR, approach with extreme caution; the game's only as good as you are.


http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=58236

[Garry]

what no comments ?

sounds good to me 8)

[topgeartom]

You know, ive had the game a little while now, and for all the rave reviews in the press, i just didnt find it that exciting.

It uses the exact same platform as many other games. I know for a fact (as ive played them all) that it is almost identical to EA's F1 career which has a huge modifcation following, so there are hundreds of add-ons to turn the game into a GT series, a BTCC, or classic f1 simulator (to name just a few) rFactor uses the same platform, and in my opinion is much more playable and even more realistic than GTR - one of my very favourite games, and its still only in the very early stages of development.

Think of it as a case of the old ford galaxy - VW Sharan and seat alhambra - all exactly the same car just with extremely minor alterations and different packaging. But when it came down to it - they all looked the same. Or for a more recent example, the peugot 107 v Toyota Aygo v Citroen C1 All the same car with different wrappers.

I dont understand why GTR is being hailed as such a fantastic game, its just a clone of an already used platform. Its so obvious to see once you have played the others. All the menus are virtually identical in their function, the generic controller setups are identical, with identical operation. Thye ganmeplay is also very similar, the same pre-set camera views - even with the same buttons to change them. The cars all handle the same, with only minor differences, althoguh i would say that rFactor is easily the better in all departments. the graphics are sharper, the handling is spot on, and the sound is miles, miles better.

I just dont understand the rave reviews. I installed GTR, and then found myself (after about 15 minutes,) quitting the game and starting rFactor!

[mindgam3]

^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO.

If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that...

[Pimp Racer]

I will play it at my buddys for sure man! :D Its a really nice and accurate game from the Demo I have played! :D

[SFDMALEX]

You know, ive had the game a little while now, and for all the rave reviews in the press, i just didnt find it that exciting.

It uses the exact same platform as many other games. I know for a fact (as ive played them all) that it is almost identical to EA's F1 career which has a huge modifcation following, so there are hundreds of add-ons to turn the game into a GT series, a BTCC, or classic f1 simulator (to name just a few) rFactor uses the same platform, and in my opinion is much more playable and even more realistic than GTR - one of my very favourite games, and its still only in the very early stages of development.

Think of it as a case of the old ford galaxy - VW Sharan and seat alhambra - all exactly the same car just with extremely minor alterations and different packaging. But when it came down to it - they all looked the same. Or for a more recent example, the peugot 107 v Toyota Aygo v Citroen C1 All the same car with different wrappers.

I dont understand why GTR is being hailed as such a fantastic game, its just a clone of an already used platform. Its so obvious to see once you have played the others. All the menus are virtually identical in their function, the generic controller setups are identical, with identical operation. Thye ganmeplay is also very similar, the same pre-set camera views - even with the same buttons to change them. The cars all handle the same, with only minor differences, althoguh i would say that rFactor is easily the better in all departments. the graphics are sharper, the handling is spot on, and the sound is miles, miles better.

I just dont understand the rave reviews. I installed GTR, and then found myself (after about 15 minutes,) quitting the game and starting rFactor!]

Sorry mate but if you dont know shit about it then dont fucking talk because you just look silly, ok there buddy? Now dont get angry at me.

The only thing the SimBin used that is not theirs is the MOTOR 1.0 Code from ISI. Care to elaborate on the genious? Since you know so much. Period. Open code which at the end was slightly similar to what they started with.

Do you know anything about the gaming industry at all? If not then STFU. Half the bloody FPS games use the good old quake engine. Know anything about that? I bet you couldnt even tell that the games use the same platform.

There are "rFactor uses the same platform, and in my opinion is much more playable and even more realistic than GTR"???

Much more playable. Simulators are not about "playability" sims are about simulating a certain event, device or a machine. The words play dont come in. Havent your genious ass noticed that Rfactor has basicly "all the same options" anyway what do options do you want the game to have that should be differet???


Man I keep on going making you look bad but fuck it. So all the reveiwers are a bunch of stupid idiouts and your are the genious kiddy?

Who the hell are you to talk about realisim, for fucks sake you play GT4, and you play it with a wheel while in external view.......Just shut the fuck up :D


Next time think twice, beause you just sound like an idiot kiddy who's trying to look smart.


Oh brother what did I get self in to, fighting with kids.........

[topgeartom]

april fools finished at 12:00 mate.

[SFDMALEX]

^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO.

If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that...

Ahh mate. SIMULATION=SIMULATION

It has nothing to do with fun.

[topgeartom]

Has someone stuck a stick up your arse this afternoon?

[ARMAN]

http://arman.xz.cz/smilees/jedi.gif http://arman.xz.cz/smilees/kos.gif

[SFDMALEX]

Has someone stuck a stick up your arse this afternoon?

No, but someone stuck a stick up your ear and took your brains out.

[SFDMALEX]

april fools finished at 12:00 mate.

Makes no difference to me, your a fool 24/7 I have noticed.

[topgeartom]

april fools finished at 12:00 mate.

Makes no difference to me, your a fool 24/7 I have noticed.

everyone has their own opinion's, although its obviously clear you dont appreciate that fact judging by your reaction to my opinion.

I dont even have the time for this, your shit at pranks though. You might as well have I'M WINDING YOU UP writen at the top of the screen

[ARMAN]

Alex, relax :|

[Anonymous]

april fools finished at 12:00 mate.

Makes no difference to me, your a fool 24/7 I have noticed.

common dude you really didn't have to make it personal, he just didn't like a game, why does everybody seem to argue lately! and over OPINIONS too, you may think someone elses opinion is worthless, ill imformed etc etc but please isn't everbody entitled to hold one without being abused. First diesels now this, i dunno :roll:

[SFDMALEX]

april fools finished at 12:00 mate.

Makes no difference to me, your a fool 24/7 I have noticed.

everyone has their own opinion's, although its obviously clear you dont appreciate that fact judging by your reaction to my opinion.

I dont even have the time for this, your shit at pranks though. You might as well have I'M WINDING YOU UP writen at the top of the screen

Opinion? Opinion based on what? All I hear is you talking shit with nothing to back your shit up. An opinion has to have an explanetion, describing why you like it or why you dont like.

[SFDMALEX]

Alex, relax :|

I am :wink: Why wouldnt I be?

[topgeartom]

Alex, go to bed, your embarrassing yourself.

[SFDMALEX]

april fools finished at 12:00 mate.

Makes no difference to me, your a fool 24/7 I have noticed.

common dude you really didn't have to make it personal, he just didn't like a game, why does everybody seem to argue lately! and over OPINIONS too, you may think someone elses opinion is worthless, ill imformed etc etc but please isn't everbody entitled to hold one without being abused. First diesels now this, i dunno :roll:

Your MINI is a peice of shit automobile.

Is that a good opinion? No, I didnt even say why I didnt like it, you cant just go talking shit about something or somebody withouht having a reason for it.

Oh and Tom is not the one being abused, he abused a peferctly fine sim withouht any justification.

[SFDMALEX]

Alex, go to bed, your embarrassing yourself.

How is that? Your the one embaressing your self...shit man. YOU DRIVE GT4 WITH A HELMET IN EXTERNAL VIEW........not thats fucking embarrasing.

[topgeartom]

You are actually taking the piss arent you. If not, then you are quite possibly THE most mentally inept person i have ever had the misfortune to come across, the helmet thing was a joke, only a complete fuckwit wouldnt understand that. Stop this circus act before you make an even bigger twat of yourself.

[Anonymous]

april fools finished at 12:00 mate.

Makes no difference to me, your a fool 24/7 I have noticed.

common dude you really didn't have to make it personal, he just didn't like a game, why does everybody seem to argue lately! and over OPINIONS too, you may think someone elses opinion is worthless, ill imformed etc etc but please isn't everbody entitled to hold one without being abused. First diesels now this, i dunno :roll:

Your MINI is a peice of shit automobile.

Is that a good opinion? No, I didnt even say why I didnt like it, you cant just go talking shit about something or somebody withouht having a reason for it.

Oh and Tom is not the one being abused, he abused a peferctly fine sim withouht any justification.

well he may have not gone into huge depths i admit but comparison with other games is legitimate review, how often do people do that with cars?
BTW leave off the mini what did it ever do to you :P

Really guys this is a pointless arguement, there are more important things in life :roll:

[mindgam3]

^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO.

If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that...

Ahh mate. SIMULATION=SIMULATION

It has nothing to do with fun.

But computer games have everything to do with fun, just because its realistic, doesen't mean I have to go play it...

Why would i want to play something that bored me to death? :?

Driving a fast car is fun

Playing on a simulator that isn't fun obviously isn't that good of a simulator as i can imagine driving a 360 GT car would be a hell of a lot of fun.

A decent simulation needs to be realistic AND fun, GTR doesen't do it for me....

GT4 has enough realism and represents real world driving yet is actually fun to play.

If they stuck GTR's physics engine in GT4 then that would be a great game, as it is, IMO GT4 wins hands down.

As i said, if i wanted realism i'd go book a few hours in a proper performance car :P

[styla21]

SFDMALEX,
Tom's comment simply stated his experience with a game (would you call a racing sim, a game?), and expressed his opinion on it. He didn't jump all over you personally. I appreciate your knowledge in this area of gaming; and i suggest you consider others right to speak on a topic without having to be criticised for it - unless justified, which in this case it's not.

Your understanding of SIM's is way beyond most of us, and if anyone was to know what they are talking about in this area it's you. With that, perhaps consider helping others understand what they don't know by educating them, not raging on them.

[topgeartom]

^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO.

If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that...

Ahh mate. SIMULATION=SIMULATION

It has nothing to do with fun.

But computer games have everything to do with fun, just because its realistic, doesen't mean I have to go play it...

Why would i want to play something that bored me to death? :?

Driving a fast car is fun

Playing on a simulator that isn't fun obviously isn't that good of a simulator as i can imagine driving a 360 GT car would be a hell of a lot of fun.

A decent simulation needs to be realistic AND fun, GTR doesen't do it for me....

GT4 has enough realism and represents real world driving yet is actually fun to play.

If they stuck GTR's physics engine in GT4 then that would be a great game, as it is, IMO GT4 wins hands down.

As i said, if i wanted realism i'd go book a few hours in a proper performance car :P

exactly. GTR is exactly like all the other racing sims i have played, although it is fundamentally lacking that special something that makes games fun. rFactor has all the realism of GTR (if not more) yet it is FUN to play, something GTR isnt.

[topgeartom]

SFDMALEX,
Tom's comment simply stated his experience with a game (would you call a racing sim, a game?), and expressed his opinion on it. He didn't jump all over you personally. I appreciate your knowledge in this area of gaming; and i suggest you consider others right to speak on a topic without having to be criticised for it - unless justified, which in this case it's not.

Your understanding of SIM's is way beyond most of us, and if anyone was to know what they are talking about in this area it's you. With that, perhaps consider helping others understand what they don't know by educating them, not raging on them.

THANK YOU!

Just because i thought your review was wrong, i didnt go mental at you and put fuck in every sentence, and launch on a PERSONAL assault.

If you burst out like that in a bar or club, just cos someone countered your opinion, you would get laid out, simple as that. They would fucking well lamp you, so what makes you think you can get away with it on here?

[SFDMALEX]

Jezzz people, have you ever heard of time zones?


I give up. Your all a bunch of tools.......not just Tom.

[topgeartom]

I think you'll find i gathered in my first post. Then i went along with it. You still made an arse of yourself though.

[Anonymous]

Jezzz people, have you ever heard of time zones?


I give up. Your all a bunch of tools.......not just Tom.

thanks for your kind words :wink: and reasoned well backed up opinion :P

[SFDMALEX]

^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO.

If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that...

Ahh mate. SIMULATION=SIMULATION

It has nothing to do with fun.

But computer games have everything to do with fun, just because its realistic, doesen't mean I have to go play it...

Why would i want to play something that bored me to death? :?

Driving a fast car is fun

Playing on a simulator that isn't fun obviously isn't that good of a simulator as i can imagine driving a 360 GT car would be a hell of a lot of fun.

A decent simulation needs to be realistic AND fun, GTR doesen't do it for me....

GT4 has enough realism and represents real world driving yet is actually fun to play.

If they stuck GTR's physics engine in GT4 then that would be a great game, as it is, IMO GT4 wins hands down.

As i said, if i wanted realism i'd go book a few hours in a proper performance car :P

I am having tons of fun mate, and so are 1000s of other people. What many expect is to jump in and have "fun". Well it can not happen because this is a very accurate simulation. Trust me mate, you will not have fun if you jump in a prodrive 550 withouht any prior experiance, you will be spinning your tires for 50 laps straight. You have to practice and achieve the fun, I have the biggest grin on my face when Im lapping Spa with online, sweating like mad, working three pedals at a time, working that wheel like mad, running through that H box....but maybe thats because Ive been doing the sim thing for over 4 years now.......and trust me mate, I hated GPL when I first tried it, becuase I never had a challenge like that in my life prior to it.

[topgeartom]

^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO.

If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that...

Ahh mate. SIMULATION=SIMULATION

It has nothing to do with fun.

But computer games have everything to do with fun, just because its realistic, doesen't mean I have to go play it...

Why would i want to play something that bored me to death? :?

Driving a fast car is fun

Playing on a simulator that isn't fun obviously isn't that good of a simulator as i can imagine driving a 360 GT car would be a hell of a lot of fun.

A decent simulation needs to be realistic AND fun, GTR doesen't do it for me....

GT4 has enough realism and represents real world driving yet is actually fun to play.

If they stuck GTR's physics engine in GT4 then that would be a great game, as it is, IMO GT4 wins hands down.

As i said, if i wanted realism i'd go book a few hours in a proper performance car :P

I am having tons of fun mate, and so are 1000s of other people. What many expect is to jump in and have "fun". Well it can not happen because this is a very accurate simulation. Trust me mate, you will not have fun if you jump in a prodrive 550 withouht any prior experiance, you will be spinning your tires for 50 laps straight. You have to practice and achieve the fun, I have the biggest grin on my face when Im lapping Spa with online, sweating like mad, working three pedals at a time, working that wheel like mad, running through that H box....but maybe thats because Ive been doing the sim thing for over 4 years now.......and trust me mate, I hated GPL when I first tried it, becuase I never had a challenge like that in my life prior to it.

call me daft, but that sounds extremely sad.

[styla21]

So i'm a tool now? Lets step outside...




...... unfortunate about the time zone thing, it's not the 2nd of April here i guess i missed your sarcasm. :roll:

[SFDMALEX]

So i'm a tool now? Lets step outside...




...... unfortunate about the time zone thing, it's not the 2nd of April here i guess i missed your sarcasm. :roll:

Oh my :lol: Its April 1st here!

And for your info this is not the first time I did this to Tom. :wink:

[SFDMALEX]

^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO.

If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that...

Ahh mate. SIMULATION=SIMULATION

It has nothing to do with fun.

But computer games have everything to do with fun, just because its realistic, doesen't mean I have to go play it...

Why would i want to play something that bored me to death? :?

Driving a fast car is fun

Playing on a simulator that isn't fun obviously isn't that good of a simulator as i can imagine driving a 360 GT car would be a hell of a lot of fun.

A decent simulation needs to be realistic AND fun, GTR doesen't do it for me....

GT4 has enough realism and represents real world driving yet is actually fun to play.

If they stuck GTR's physics engine in GT4 then that would be a great game, as it is, IMO GT4 wins hands down.

As i said, if i wanted realism i'd go book a few hours in a proper performance car :P

I am having tons of fun mate, and so are 1000s of other people. What many expect is to jump in and have "fun". Well it can not happen because this is a very accurate simulation. Trust me mate, you will not have fun if you jump in a prodrive 550 withouht any prior experiance, you will be spinning your tires for 50 laps straight. You have to practice and achieve the fun, I have the biggest grin on my face when Im lapping Spa with online, sweating like mad, working three pedals at a time, working that wheel like mad, running through that H box....but maybe thats because Ive been doing the sim thing for over 4 years now.......and trust me mate, I hated GPL when I first tried it, becuase I never had a challenge like that in my life prior to it.

call me daft, but that sounds extremely sad.

How is that sad? GT4 is not sad? Now it really bugs me, care to elaborate how its sad?

[topgeartom]

From the description it sounded like you spend every single minute of your free time sitting at the computer playing games. And you yourself said "over 4 years" it just seemed like you took it all rather serious. I'm done arguing anyway, im off to bed here, as we run in GMT, and therefore it is 3:00 2nd April morning.

[SFDMALEX]

From the description it sounded like you spend every single minute of your free time sitting at the computer playing games. And you yourself said "over 4 years" it just seemed like you took it all rather serious. I'm done arguing anyway, im off to bed here, as we run in GMT, and therefore it is 3:00 2nd April morning.

Ahh what? :lol: I wish mate I wish. I spent 3hours a week max racing or just gaming in general.

And I sad I've been sim racing for 4 years now, what does that have to do with anything?

And whos arguing? Im not arguing. Are you?

[mindgam3]

I am having tons of fun mate, and so are 1000s of other people. What many expect is to jump in and have "fun". Well it can not happen because this is a very accurate simulation. Trust me mate, you will not have fun if you jump in a prodrive 550 withouht any prior experiance, you will be spinning your tires for 50 laps straight. You have to practice and achieve the fun, I have the biggest grin on my face when Im lapping Spa with online, sweating like mad, working three pedals at a time, working that wheel like mad, running through that H box....but maybe thats because Ive been doing the sim thing for over 4 years now.......and trust me mate, I hated GPL when I first tried it, becuase I never had a challenge like that in my life prior to it.

I know what driving fast on a racetrack feels like. You'll never get that experience from a computer.... not for another 20 years at least

I can assure you now, that stepping into a prodrive 550, any decent driver would be able to drive it - not neccesarily at race pace, but i can assure you now, driving a pro gt car at any speed would be a million times more fun than ANY computer "simulation".

At the end of the day, hardcore sim fans don't group the likes of GTR and GT4 together. I do, because they're both computer games, they're both racing games and they're both a hell of a lot different from being in a real car and driving it..... You can't learn any more from GTR than you can from GT4 in terms of relating to real life driving....

So if they're both just games, and far far different from real life.... then how do you judge how good each game is compared to each other? For me, its the fun factor, and IMO GT4 wins hands down....

[SFDMALEX]

You know whats the problem with people like you? You know absolutly nothing about structure of GTR, you have no idea how the physics model that it is build around, you know nothing about it period. All you did was install it, try for for a few seconds, realize that your rubbish at it, and give up. You can not expect to sit down and drive like a pro, hell if you didnt have fun with GTR, I want to see you try GPL, now you'd probably say its the most unrealstic thing out there...Now it does not take a genious to figure out that driving the thing in real life is much more fun then driving one in a simulator.

Any decent driver can drive a 600bhp race car? That has to be the funiest thing I have ever heard, that statement is an insult to any race car driver out there. A 600bhp race car, with slicks, any decent driver car drive that? :lol: Ok. :lol:

And again you got it all wrong. GT4 is a computer GAME. GTR is a computer SIMULATOR. If you say that you cant learn more from GTR then from GT4 then again your proving how misinformed, or just not informed at all you are.

HOw do I compare which is better? Well it depends what you are talking about. If you are talking about which is the better game, then the better game is GT4, because its actually a game, if you are talking about simulators then I will take GTR.

Lastly why do you keep brining up the fun thing? Forget about fun, for different people fun is a different thing. For you its games for me its sims.

I will no longer reply in this thread unless someone wants to have an intelligent conversation about the differnt sims physics engines etc, cause I dont have the time to waist to prove things to people who do not even bother researching the subject they are talking about.

[styla21]

Sfdmalex, i have limited experience with simulators and racing games; but if you're the guy to talk to then i have a couple of questions. I understand theres a difference between a game, and a simulator. I'd like to buy a simulator, and enjoy playing it. Is there a steep learning curve? Which would you recommend? What sort of equipment do you need? Can it be fun (rather than pure frustration), as a rookie? :)

[SFDMALEX]

Sfdmalex, i have limited experience with simulators and racing games; but if you're the guy to talk to then i have a couple of questions. I understand theres a difference between a game, and a simulator. I'd like to buy a simulator, and enjoy playing it. Is there a steep learning curve? Which would you recommend? What sort of equipment do you need? Can it be fun (rather than pure frustration), as a rookie? :)

Nice to see someone with the right approach :)

When I first started off with sims, like GPL at first I found it very frustrating, very hard. But when I finally got a hang of it, its an unbeatble feeling. At first it will be very hard, that is the bottom line, but if you are willing to learn it will not take that long to become competative, to be very fast takes a lot of practice.

To start off again I will recomend GTR because in GTR you can enable driving AIDS such as ABS and Traction control. At first you drive with those and then when you become more cofrfatble you switch them off and learn how to modulate the throttle etc, when you are done with that take off ABS and learn how to brake...

It will take a lot more technical knoledge to set up the car(if you want your own custom crafted setup) and it will take some time to learn how the telemtry system works etc, its not that hard actually, you have tons of graphs which you have to learn how to read so you can see what the car is doing on the track and setup the car accordingly.

As far as equipment, all you need is a very good wheel pedal set. I recomend the MoMo Racing by Logitech, or if you have more money go for the Logitech Driving Force Pro, its a PS2 wheel but it works on PC flawlesy.


Bottom line, it is not easy, but if you are driven and are willing to go through it you will be very satisfied and its the best expriance you will have, unless you can drive the real thing, which sim strive to be to as close as possible.

[abdul123]

Any decent driver can drive a 600bhp race car? That has to be the funiest thing I have ever heard, that statement is an insult to any race car driver out there. A 600bhp race car, with slicks, any decent driver car drive that? :lol: Ok. :lol:

come on man, any decent driver could drive a 600bhp race car.. but its highly likely that if they tried to drive it fast then they would stick it in the armco :lol:

[mindgam3]

Any decent driver can drive a 600bhp race car? That has to be the funiest thing I have ever heard, that statement is an insult to any race car driver out there. A 600bhp race car, with slicks, any decent driver car drive that? :lol: Ok. :lol:

come on man, any decent driver could drive a 600bhp race car.. but its highly likely that if they tried to drive it fast then they would stick it in the armco :lol:

exactly :P

And they may be different genres of games; simulator and more arcade, but at the end of the day they're both GAMES.

If you read reviews of GTR and GT4 in genuine car magazines such as CAR and EVO who happen to test all the real supercars, they lump them all in the same group.

Both of them are way too unrealistic to be classed as a pure simulator - they're both games. The physics model in GTR may be better than GT4 in terms of realism, but its still unrealistic.... PC's aren't good enough yet to make a very accurate physics model for GAMES.

A simulator is the kind of thing the US government spends millions on to train their astraunauts and pilots, where by they get trained on it and then immediately can fly the actual fighters/choppers etc.... not something you can run on your PC :P

A proper simulator enables you to go from the virtual to the real with little in the way of differences. I don't think you can go from GTR to a 600bhp race car and pull off the same kind of lap times - no way....

[topgeartom]

SO maybe i dont know much about the game model,a dn the physics mapping used, but then, who does? realistically what percentage of buyers are going to know exactly how the game works, and has all the right equipment to play it (in order to actually stop being crap at it)??? I dont think it will be anywhere near over 1/4. So thats a really dam low amount of people who will enjoy the game - and dont give me any of that simulator shit, maybe it is billed as a simulator, but thats just a sub-genre, its a fucking Game, outright. So if such a low amount of people enjoy the game, then that surely makes it one of the very worst games in a long while. We buy games to enjoy them. They are entertainment, they are meant to make us feel good and happy, and if you cant get that feeling straight away from a game - then surely it has failed in its only purpose!

[SFDMALEX]

Any decent driver can drive a 600bhp race car? That has to be the funiest thing I have ever heard, that statement is an insult to any race car driver out there. A 600bhp race car, with slicks, any decent driver car drive that? :lol: Ok. :lol:

come on man, any decent driver could drive a 600bhp race car.. but its highly likely that if they tried to drive it fast then they would stick it in the armco :lol:

exactly :P

And they may be different genres of games; simulator and more arcade, but at the end of the day they're both GAMES.

If you read reviews of GTR and GT4 in genuine car magazines such as CAR and EVO who happen to test all the real supercars, they lump them all in the same group.

Both of them are way too unrealistic to be classed as a pure simulator - they're both games. The physics model in GTR may be better than GT4 in terms of realism, but its still unrealistic.... PC's aren't good enough yet to make a very accurate physics model for GAMES.

A simulator is the kind of thing the US government spends millions on to train their astraunauts and pilots, where by they get trained on it and then immediately can fly the actual fighters/choppers etc.... not something you can run on your PC :P

A proper simulator enables you to go from the virtual to the real with little in the way of differences. I don't think you can go from GTR to a 600bhp race car and pull off the same kind of lap times - no way....

Is that why Fabio Babini did not have any problems jumping into a GTR simulator and setting the same lap times as he does in real life? Is that the reason why half the drivers in FIA GT championship didnt have problems jumping in and driving right away?

If you say that computers are not capable if simulating a proper lets say Car model then you again are proving how misinformed or straight up not informed you are.

Do your reaserch mate. Did you know that the Swedish airforce uses Falcon 4 for their simulators? I guess not. Didnt know that did you? A contries airforce uses a publicaly availible simulator to train their pilots.
Do you know what is the only difference between my falcon 4 installtion and the Swedish Airforce one? They have an actuall cockpit resembling the aircraft with all the controll panels at their hands, were I have to use the keyboard as my controll panel.

Do your reaserch.

I flew one of those "million dollar" simulators here in Canada. Apart from sitting in actual cockpit its no different then lets say LOMAC. My god lomac had a better model.

Did you ever hear of PS1? Well let me tell you, ITS A DOS based 737 simulator. Costs about 300$, install it on a 233 and fly. It simulates 90% of the systems in the 737, the other 10% which are not simualted are the coffee maker systems on board. Did you know thats what they use to train pilots? I guess not.

Ever heard of Ian Bell? He's the head honcho of Simbin, jumped out of GTR straight into a Viper race car, drove around and a very good pace and said that the only difference is the fact that you are afraid of crashing since you can die(something sims can never simulate) and simply the physical vibrations from the car. Period, many said it over thousands of time. I know a guy who tracks his car everyweekend and he uses GTR/GPL to practice his driving skills.

I have a friend who's 16. In the States, if you want I can actually dig up a thread that he started on the subject. Well he's 16 and he just bought an 80s Quattro, the guy never rallied his car in his life, few weeks ago he went to his first little rally event and was second fastest. All his prior experiance was Richard Burns Rally, he wrote a whole thread saying how rbr helped him.


Anything else?

The only things computer are not capable of simulating is fear. Fear of death and proper G force simulating. Period.

Mindgam3 have you even looked at the motec telemetry in GTR? Did you know that that telemetry is exatctly the same thing as all the teams in FIA GT have in their laptops? Everbothered to look what type of telemetry data GTR is logging? I guess not. Just tell me what GTR doesnt simulate. Well it doesnt simulate air density and its effect on engine combustion, thats about it. But thats just nitpicking.

So if you want to continue talking then do your reasrch because you know absolutly nothing and are trying to prove something that you have no idea about. Your entire post was a bunch of silly assumptions. Such as the airforce simulators. Proved you wrong there didnt I? Obviously you know nothing about computer simulators period. You have no idea of what computers(yes your PC) are capable of simulating. My father is an RF engineer, they have systems running on standart P4s simulating 13ghz military transmission systems. Naval acadimies run boat simulators on standart PCs. Did you ever know that Mircrosoft Flight Sim simulates different air densities etc which directly affects the flight model? Have you ever bothered to look at how Richard Burns Rally models the entire differential system? Did you know anything about the GTR tire model? How its simulated? How it is affected by road temprature in real time?

I can go on and on...

As Im going to say to Tom, if simulators dont make you happy then play the dumbed down for the masses race games. Man I love playing PGR2, its tons of fun, GT4 is tons of fun, but in no way are those simulators. No console today has the proccesing power to run a good physics model.

You got to have a really big ego if you expect to sit in a race car and drive it any pace at all withouht any practice.

[SFDMALEX]

SO maybe i dont know much about the game model,a dn the physics mapping used, but then, who does? realistically what percentage of buyers are going to know exactly how the game works, and has all the right equipment to play it (in order to actually stop being crap at it)??? I dont think it will be anywhere near over 1/4. So thats a really dam low amount of people who will enjoy the game - and dont give me any of that simulator shit, maybe it is billed as a simulator, but thats just a sub-genre, its a fucking Game, outright. So if such a low amount of people enjoy the game, then that surely makes it one of the very worst games in a long while. We buy games to enjoy them. They are entertainment, they are meant to make us feel good and happy, and if you cant get that feeling straight away from a game - then surely it has failed in its only purpose!

Have you ever read one of your posts? You sound like a complete retard.

Realisticly simulators dont sell because the level of diffculty is to high for regular people who just want a fun racing game, a fun flying game. Hence there are barely any out there. You can count them on your fingers, because GTR would sell a few thousand copies if it didnt have an arcade mode implanted which was only there so they could actually make some money off of the game.

You are the type who injoys GT4 and Crimson skies.

Ever tried flying a proper flight sim? Lomac, or Falcon4? Obviously you are going to say thats its rubbish because you have to read a whole manual on how to start the jet turbines spinning. And you have to read another manual about 200pages long on how to work the radar. You'll also have to read a book on basic flight controll, missle evasion...You'll have to read another book one weapons, their range, their speed, which to use on who and how, at what alltitude and what speed.

Or is this shit because you just cant jump in and fly? Fuck mang, jet fighets are a bunch of dumb idiots then, you just jump in the cockpit hit the take off button and start launching rockets at full rate hoping you can take someone down.


These are simulators. You tried GTR, and bam you suck, but you expected to sit in and drive off doing 2.10s at spa didnt you? I guess you can do that in real life to? Jump in the lister storm strap in and lap like crazy?


Bottom line, learn your shit and play your games. If simulators dont make you happy then they obviously arent for you, stick to your NFSU2 and GT4 while Ill stick to my LOMAC, GTR and GPL, along with that moon landing dos based simulator I have.

[topgeartom]

Have you ever read one of your posts? You sound like a complete retard.

Odd. Exactly the same phrase applies to you, which obviously you'll be very annoyed at, as you are obviously soooo much better than me at everything - us mere mortals who are hopeless at every single simulation game ever made. It must be hard for you.

FYI, i've never played crimson skies, I play GT4 along with the millions of other people because it is fun, something GTR isn't. Which is the point i was making in my previous post, however you are obviously far too illiterate in order to understand it. So this time, ill make it nice and clear for you, ok?

GTR IS NOT FUN. GAMES SHOULD BE FUN. therefore, GTR IS NOT A GOOD GAME.

Better for you?

Oh, and i do fly simulators, i enjoy FS2004 greatly, and yes i fly it as a simulator, not as an arcade type game. i use 2 joysticks - one of which is the throttle/rudder combo, the other being the yoke. I use the analogue throttle roller as the trim adjuster, and the digital throttle on the other stick as the flaps control. However, i imagine this is far too 'amateur' for you.

And lets face it, so what if I am the type who enjoys GT4 - are you decrying all those who do? What exactly are you trying to say, when you use such a comment as an insult?

I used to have a lot of respect for you alex, as i do have for all the other members of JW, however, they aren't in the habit of starting stupid fucking arguments (apart from RC, but then we expect that! :P )

[mindgam3]

Have you ever spoken to F1 engineers about the simulations they do?

Their computers, which aren't exactly shit can take hours, even days to do calculations with one single element of an F1 car. Even F1 teams are just beginning to simulate transient aerodynamics - eg what happens when their car is cornering rather than going down a straight. So don't tell me that GTR can simulate real life air flow and the effects on the cars aerodynamics because thats just bullshit.

And that's just one element of the car. Tyres and their interaction with the tarmac is far more complicated than GTR simulates.

Data analysis (motec) only takes measurements whether real or virtual - not really very impressive - even GT4 does that :P

So your mate drove a rally and came second did he?

I don't play simulators often, if at all and I was faster round rockingham, UK in an M3 that a guy who actually owns one. I drive a 1.2 clio.... some of us are just more natural than others :P;)

[SFDMALEX]

Have you ever read one of your posts? You sound like a complete retard.

Odd. Exactly the same phrase applies to you, which obviously you'll be very annoyed at, as you are obviously soooo much better than me at everything - us mere mortals who are hopeless at every single simulation game ever made. It must be hard for you.

FYI, i've never played crimson skies, I play GT4 along with the millions of other people because it is fun, something GTR isn't. Which is the point i was making in my previous post, however you are obviously far too illiterate in order to understand it. So this time, ill make it nice and clear for you, ok?

GTR IS NOT FUN. GAMES SHOULD BE FUN. therefore, GTR IS NOT A GOOD GAME.

Better for you?

Oh, and i do fly simulators, i enjoy FS2004 greatly, and yes i fly it as a simulator, not as an arcade type game. i use 2 joysticks - one of which is the throttle/rudder combo, the other being the yoke. I use the analogue throttle roller as the trim adjuster, and the digital throttle on the other stick as the flaps control. However, i imagine this is far too 'amateur' for you.

And lets face it, so what if I am the type who enjoys GT4 - are you decrying all those who do? What exactly are you trying to say, when you use such a comment as an insult?

I used to have a lot of respect for you alex, as i do have for all the other members of JW, however, they aren't in the habit of starting stupid fucking arguments (apart from RC, but then we expect that! :P )

Your a fucking idiot. :lol: I was never talking about GTR being a game, I never talked about the game aspect of it you silly little kid.

[topgeartom]

why? it is a game afterall - something you dont seem to realise.

[SFDMALEX]

Have you ever spoken to F1 engineers about the simulations they do?

Their computers, which aren't exactly shit can take hours, even days to do calculations with one single element of an F1 car. Even F1 teams are just beginning to simulate transient aerodynamics - eg what happens when their car is cornering rather than going down a straight. So don't tell me that GTR can simulate real life air flow and the effects on the cars aerodynamics because thats just bullshit.

And that's just one element of the car. Tyres and their interaction with the tarmac is far more complicated than GTR simulates.

Data analysis (motec) only takes measurements whether real or virtual - not really very impressive - even GT4 does that :P

So your mate drove a rally and came second did he?

I don't play simulators often, if at all and I was faster round rockingham, UK in an M3 that a guy who actually owns one. I drive a 1.2 clio.... some of us are just more natural than others :P;)

F1 simualtors that teams use are a whole different thing. They dont test how the car drives, they test parts. A racing sim does not simulate how much wear a piston can take. Their simulators are a whole different thing completly different from any racing sim. They are stress simulators.

A racing sim is a simple input output peice of software. THey get data from telemetries etc which already tells them all the values that are needed to simulate a tranny. When input x=123 output y should =134ew. When somebody builds a simulator they know what the result should be of a given input. F1 stress simualtors etc are build to find out the outcome of a given input.

Tottaly different things mate.

me that GTR can simulate real life air flow and the effects on the cars aerodynamics because thats just bullshit.

HAHA, again do your reaserch. How can a sim exist if it can not model aero dynamics. LOL! Have you ever looked at the GTR setup menus? My god even GT4 simulates aero, you are so lost I cant even bother replying.

F1 teams cant simulate aero effects? LOL :lol: were do you get your info. What do you think they do before putting a model in a wind tunel?

Airflow simulation is present on friggin GPL which is like 8 years old mate....do your reaserch please....My god man, why did I even bother replying here when you do not even know something as simple as that. I guess all those flight sims are modeled to fly in vacum environments. How can a sim even be considered a sim withougt airflow?

My god man, dont you use the CFD moddeling software at your school?


Even F1 teams are just beginning to simulate transient aerodynamics

Depends what you mean by transient exactly.


Tyres and their interaction with the tarmac is far more complicated than GTR simulates.


Have you ever bothered to reaserch the tire model of the MOTOR 1.0 engine? Which again has been changed for GTR.


It doesnt take a genious to figure out that we will never be able to simualte the effect of the bug on tire model that I ran over while cornering. But these things have such minor effect that there is no sense in moddeling them.

We will never be able to simulate everysingle peice of matter, because even a fart from a spectator has an effect on the race, everything affects everything, to the 0.000000000000000000000000000000001 maybe but it has an effect somehow on someting, but no one is going to model that.


Honestly my last post here, because you are clearly unaware of what is simulated and what is not. Just assumptions and specultions. How can you even talk about GTR if you have no idea of the systems it simulates? How? All you do is assume. You have not bothered to look at the telemetry even, you have not bothered to do the reaserch on the physics engine but you still argue. :lol:

Anyway, adios, play your games and be happy.

P.S Read this http://www.aerorocket.com/aerocfd.html to get an idea of what we are able to simulate these days since you've been under a rock for the last 10 years.

[mindgam3]

Yes we've got CFD modelling software - and as I said it takes hours/days to do some calculations - even on our new 64 processor unit.

Lol, i never said F1 teams cannot simulate aero effects :roll: I said they've only recently begun to simulate transient aero effects.... which i did explain in my post ;)

I've also been lectured by Renault F1 engineers on their CFD modelling and simulations.

Basically, even F1 simulations that they use cannot simulate accurately how a car performs on a given circuit.... if simulations are as good as you say they are, they wouldnt need to test their car at all. If simulators are that good why don't f1 teams save millions and make their drivers test their cars on a computer simulator?

But whatever, it just brings me back to the point i was getting at in the first place - you can't beat real life... you can't feel it though your seat, you can't hear it, you're not getting any feedback, you're not feeling g forces, you can't smell it, you can't replicate real drivers, you're not surrounded in it - its nothing like real life and will never be - not in our life time.

GT4 is a game, GTR is a game, whichever you prefer then great, neither is much closer to real life than the other... one has better graphics, hundreds of accurately modelled cars, the nurburgrin accurately moddled and has enough options to make it a great game.... and no its not GTR :P

[RC45]

This is an awesome exchange.

Makes one wonder who the trouble makers really are. I lay low for 2 days and you jagoffs start ripping into Alex - seems the common denominator here is the challengers - not the respondents.. :P

A simulator is the kind of thing the US government spends millions on to train their astraunauts and pilots, where by they get trained on it and then immediately can fly the actual fighters/choppers etc.... not something you can run on your PC :P


If you for a second think that military (and civilian for that matter) simulators need super computers to run them, you are sorely mistaken.

While the PC with available software may not be up to scratch, the hardware is quite capable - many times over.

It is the SOFTWARE that wins the day - NOT the hardware.

The damn things cost millions because they have to recoupe the hr&da (contractor winners charge the military what ever they can get away with - not market related fees ;)) - and don't go on to sel 1,000,000 copies on eBay.. :P

But whatever, it just brings me back to the point i was getting at in the first place - you can't beat real life... you can't feel it though your seat, you can't hear it, you're not getting any feedback, you're not feeling g forces, you can't smell it, you can't replicate real drivers, you're not surrounded in it - its nothing like real life and will never be - not in our life time.

Ever been in a real flight simulator unit (simulator not duplicator)? I have been in a couple - Airbus, Boeing, Lear and Cessna... it is such total emersion, that if you forgot to take your motion-sickness tabs you are going to puke.

So - in terms of how real does it feel to the human operator? Is it good enough to train with? Is it good enough to rate out with? Is it good enough to practice life or death one-chance event evasion manoeuvres?

The answer is YES - to all of the above. So much so that you log enough hours in the Sim you can go in the real thing with almost 0% chance of fucking it up.

Now - back your boffin/nerd/egghead/pocket protector view point - Does it model all aspects of a modern sub-sonic wide body airliner in flight? Does it model precisely the interaction between runway asphalt and stationary tyre rubber as it spins up? Does it model the effect of supersonic air across the turbofan blades ?

The answer NO - because it does not need to. The purpose of the device is to SIMULATE the real thing, to allow HUMANS to try it out and learn in a safe environment - not DUPLICATE real life as a substitute for final run airframe testing. But the flight training simulator is not for simulating the strain/stress on a main spar in a 10 G dive... it is simply assumed that by then the plane broke up.

Does this mean that it is not so real you don't puke you lunch when you come out of a climb into a rate 1 turn and and then level off into a negative G dive?

No - it is so real you will lose your dinner mate.

And all this from a set of computers that is not quite as powerful as everyones desktop.

:)

[mindgam3]

A simulator is the kind of thing the US government spends millions on to train their astraunauts and pilots, where by they get trained on it and then immediately can fly the actual fighters/choppers etc.... not something you can run on your PC :P


If you for a second think that military (and civilian for that matter) simulators need super computers to run them, you are sorely mistaken.

While the PC with available software may not be up to scratch, the hardware is quite capable - many times over.

It is the SOFTWARE that wins the day - NOT the hardware.

The damn things cost millions because they have to recoupe the R&D (contractor winners charge the military what ever they can get away with - not market related fees ;)) - and don't go on to sel 1,000,000 copies on eBay.. :P

I didnt mention software or hardware, i just said "simulators" ;)

[RC45]

A simulator is the kind of thing the US government spends millions on to train their astraunauts and pilots, where by they get trained on it and then immediately can fly the actual fighters/choppers etc.... not something you can run on your PC :P


If you for a second think that military (and civilian for that matter) simulators need super computers to run them, you are sorely mistaken.

While the PC with available software may not be up to scratch, the hardware is quite capable - many times over.

It is the SOFTWARE that wins the day - NOT the hardware.

The damn things cost millions because they have to recoupe the R&D (contractor winners charge the military what ever they can get away with - not market related fees ;)) - and don't go on to sel 1,000,000 copies on eBay.. :P

I didnt mention software or hardware, i just said "simulators" ;)

which is why your whole argument was wrong.

[mindgam3]

A simulator is the kind of thing the US government spends millions on to train their astraunauts and pilots, where by they get trained on it and then immediately can fly the actual fighters/choppers etc.... not something you can run on your PC :P


If you for a second think that military (and civilian for that matter) simulators need super computers to run them, you are sorely mistaken.

While the PC with available software may not be up to scratch, the hardware is quite capable - many times over.

It is the SOFTWARE that wins the day - NOT the hardware.

The damn things cost millions because they have to recoupe the R&D (contractor winners charge the military what ever they can get away with - not market related fees ;)) - and don't go on to sel 1,000,000 copies on eBay.. :P

I didnt mention software or hardware, i just said "simulators" ;)

which is why your whole argument was wrong.

Don't see how but there you go... :D

Whats your opinion on the general subject though? When you feel the need to indulge in your petrolhead needs.... where do you go; to the computer or to your vette? ;)

[RC45]

Whats your opinion on the general subject though? When you feel the need to indulge in your petrolhead needs.... where do you go; to the computer or to your vette? ;)

Well - truth be told, we like to brag about on street adventures, but you are rarely going past abou 3/10'ths of the cars potential but are often 9/10th's of the drivers potential and more so - really an accident looking for a place to happen.

For all our fascetious ramblins about "running and gunning" on the street, you spend about 1% of the time getting on it, and the other 99% avoiding other traffic, cops and simply driving to outlying areas to have some fun.

So - while there is no substitute for the real thing, the fact that we seldom hve schedules and budgets that allow uas much track playtime as we would like - street driving often leaves me unfulfilled.

Even a blast through the backwoods roads where we sometimes average 100+mph or more over a 10 mile stretches of B road 2 lane "tracks" (very much like small stretches of the Nurburgring) you still feel somethign was missing.

Keeping an eye the other drivers on the run, oncoming traffic, road conditions, surrounding conditions, sounds, smells and on the radar is refreshing and exilirating for sure - but even a "game" like GT4 lets you remove yourself from that reality of consequence and you get a little crazy.

I think thats what these driving simulators do very well.

The guteral feel of the V8 and stomping the gas at 20mph and launching like a scalded cat with turpine-dipped testicles is for sure better with the real thing - but the strain of keeping an eye out for the local constablary often keeps all this hooligan behaviour at a minimum.

I would have to say that games/simulators meet some requirements that real life and modern traffic levels cannot - and that is going balls-the-wall until you wreck - then get a do-over.. :P

[PaulGT2164]

GTR is a realistic game, i like it cause i have realistic skills
GTR might not have a bazillion cars and every square inch of tarmac mapped, remapped and re-rendered
but as a guy who races cars, builds cars, and has actually been on a race track numerous times in a variety of cars....GTR is more realstic than most of the games out there

GT4 in my opinion is several steps lower on the realistic mark cause to me, it feels like a arcade game...

GTR is a SIMULATION not a GAME
so the jump in and have fun crowd needs not to apply

this whole argument is kinda frivoulous because the arguments are from two people who obvioulsy prefer two different styles of games

i like realism, therefore i play games like GTR, netKar, and LFS
my cousin, on the other hand like arcade
so he plays GT4, NFSU, etc

if he jumps into a game of GTR he cant make it half a lap, yet he can rip through GT4 like it is nothing

granted the real thing is much, much better...but hey track days get canceled, cars break, and i cant race everyday...so when that happens...i fire up GTR and scrape some fenders...

and before you set out to flame me or whatever or try to argue and bring up a bunch of technobabble i dont care about, my views on this game are from my actual interaction with real cars, on real tracks and how i compare the experience to GTR

[mindgam3]

Whats your opinion on the general subject though? When you feel the need to indulge in your petrolhead needs.... where do you go; to the computer or to your vette? ;)

Well - truth be told, we like to brag about on street adventures, but you are rarely going past abou 3/10'ths of the cars potential but are often 9/10th's of the drivers potential and more so - really an accident looking for a place to happen.

For all our fascetious ramblins about "running and gunning" on the street, you spend about 1% of the time getting on it, and the other 99% avoiding other traffic, cops and simply driving to outlying areas to have some fun.

So - while there is no substitute for the real thing, the fact that we seldom hve schedules and budgets that allow uas much track playtime as we would like - street driving often leaves me unfulfilled.

Even a blast through the backwoods roads where we sometimes average 100+mph or more over a 10 mile stretches of B road 2 lane "tracks" (very much like small stretches of the Nurburgring) you still feel somethign was missing.

Keeping an eye the other drivers on the run, oncoming traffic, road conditions, surrounding conditions, sounds, smells and on the radar is refreshing and exilirating for sure - but even a "game" like GT4 lets you remove yourself from that reality of consequence and you get a little crazy.

I think thats what these driving simulators do very well.

The guteral feel of the V8 and stomping the gas at 20mph and launching like a scalded cat with turpine-dipped testicles is for sure better with the real thing - but the strain of keeping an eye out for the local constablary often keeps all this hooligan behaviour at a minimum.

I would have to say that games/simulators meet some requirements that real life and modern traffic levels cannot - and that is going balls-the-wall until you wreck - then get a do-over.. :P

Get your arse down to a track day then :P

[RC45]

Whats your opinion on the general subject though? When you feel the need to indulge in your petrolhead needs.... where do you go; to the computer or to your vette? ;)

Well - truth be told, we like to brag about on street adventures, but you are rarely going past abou 3/10'ths of the cars potential but are often 9/10th's of the drivers potential and more so - really an accident looking for a place to happen.

For all our fascetious ramblins about "running and gunning" on the street, you spend about 1% of the time getting on it, and the other 99% avoiding other traffic, cops and simply driving to outlying areas to have some fun.

So - while there is no substitute for the real thing, the fact that we seldom hve schedules and budgets that allow uas much track playtime as we would like - street driving often leaves me unfulfilled.

Even a blast through the backwoods roads where we sometimes average 100+mph or more over a 10 mile stretches of B road 2 lane "tracks" (very much like small stretches of the Nurburgring) you still feel somethign was missing.

Keeping an eye the other drivers on the run, oncoming traffic, road conditions, surrounding conditions, sounds, smells and on the radar is refreshing and exilirating for sure - but even a "game" like GT4 lets you remove yourself from that reality of consequence and you get a little crazy.

I think thats what these driving simulators do very well.

The guteral feel of the V8 and stomping the gas at 20mph and launching like a scalded cat with turpine-dipped testicles is for sure better with the real thing - but the strain of keeping an eye out for the local constablary often keeps all this hooligan behaviour at a minimum.

I would have to say that games/simulators meet some requirements that real life and modern traffic levels cannot - and that is going balls-the-wall until you wreck - then get a do-over.. :P

Get your arse down to a track day then :P

That still only accounts for a small percentage of the time - such as this evening after work - I feel like a balst around Le Mans... sure beats trying to put in 10 laps at a race track before dineer.. :P

[SFDMALEX]

i play games like GTR, netKar, and LFS


:shock: I thought I was the only one :D BTW LFS2 demo is out, an alpha for some reason, not even a beta but still something :wink:

[RC45]

Time to revive this old thread :)

GTR + fast PC + Logitech Driving Force Pro 900 degree wheel = OMFG!

A couple little mit picks for GTR - they grass and gravel are like ice - even a 600hp race car can gain traction at 1000rpm(just off idel).. ;) - I think they over did the off racing line surface slickness - and the tendency to understeer even at 10 mph.

Other than that, not much to complain about - and thank goodness for the Lotus Exige/Elise - perfect learning tool.

I am very happy I fot to the end of Forza, and have opened all the cars, tracks and races in GT4 - and have spent a little time with Enthusia, because now I can get my cartoon fix with GT4/Enthusia/Forza, and my driving fix from GTR.

I actually felt the Arcade and Semi-Pro options did not do the game or wheel justice.

I like GTR - it reminds me of the time I got to drive 2 laps in a Group N BMW 320i years ago (1992) - the suspension was stiff, the car bounced and it darted this way and that and was hard as fuck to control at anything below "fast" - and unless you were on the racing line you were pretty much screwed.

GTR provides a decent simulation of that feeling.

[SFDMALEX]

Im glad you like it.

The grass is slippery as ice true, but I get stuck in the kitty litter quite easily.

Just some advice:

Set your AI at angry or phsycotic for the best action. They will fight for position, spin out trying, a little bit of fender bending, but just that, dont thinik they are litteraly physco.

You will also want to download the latest patch:

http://www.gtr-game.com/download/GTR_Update_1400_EN.exe

And check this place out. Just so you know what you see on there is free, only other clubs etc you will have to pay for.

http://www.racemore.com/more



And if you ever want to race you know were to find me :wink:


Edit- One more thing, for the best steering feel set your DFP to 520 degrees of lock, and in game in the setup screen set the ratio to 11 or 13, play in that range to find the sweet spot.
Just so you know never play on 900, 520 is considered too much for these cars(but I find that it gives you a lot of controll) 900 is just way too much, you will never be competative.


In the begining the Elise is a good track learning tool. After that you might one to go to the 360(the GT3 is tough at first since you got the porsche heavy rear and its a bitch on brakes), In the GT class the Vette is one of the easiest cars to drive. The 550 is considered the hardest, but its the fastest.

[SFDMALEX]

I think they over did the off racing line surface slickness - and the tendency to understeer even at 10 mph.

Hmm what track? In Barcelona offline traction is quite bad because the track has really shitty surface(was resurficed for this year) combine that with marbles and its quite bad.


I know that at Spa I can drive around pretty much anywere on the track with good traction, just after a long practice session and race you will notice the marbles building up and it'll make you feel like your driving on rubber balls.

[RC45]

Where can I find a working link to the GTR official Nurburgring?

[Mr.Vercetti]

Guys I was wondering, do you know if the expansion is going to have the MC12 and the 575 GTC from JMB(that black 575..)?

[RC45]

^^ I dunno - but I can say instead of an Arcade mode, they should have included some stock forgiving street cars - like the Z06, M3, Carrera 4 and some others as "training aids".

You need to learn the tracks in Simulation mode, then learn how to drive race cars on the tracks --- so instead of turning the realism down and going arcade with race cars, go semi-rpo or simulation with street cars.

And yes I tried LFS and netKar and such, and those physics engines are just crap - you stick or you slide - no middle ground.

And I can tell you in my street car on street tyres, if I turn the wheel hard at 30mph, the Z06 doesn't plow understeer strainght ahead, it darts to side you steer.

This is the part of handling that the simulations fail to simulate realsiticly - they understeer far too much at low speeds.

But those arte grips I had to look for. The Lamborghini on Road America is great fun. Sure I am being lapped by 911 GT3's - but ther sound, feedback etc from the big screen TV, surround sound, DFP 900 wheel and AR Rocker chair are awesome.

Oh - and The Mother version of the Nurburgring is really "fun" in a sadistic way as well.

[hwe]

The "King of Ovals" addon was released a couple of days ago. Check out the official www.gtr-game.com to download - "three new race tracks in the style of American oval tracks".


Where can I find a working link to the GTR official Nurburgring?

Neither Nürburgring nor Nordschleife is an official track for the GTR game.
I see from your other post that you have downloaded one of the unofficial addon Nordschleife versions, "The Mother".

Nürburgring unofficial you can find here: http://www.m4driving.it/download/8657.html

Guys I was wondering, do you know if the expansion is going to have the MC12 and the 575 GTC from JMB(that black 575..)?

No official addon cars coming - but the MC12 will come in an unofficial addon; http://forum.m4driving.it/index.php?showtopic=51697

[RC45]

Thanks. This game, I mean PC based simulator :P - is awesome. Now, if only this type of attention will get paid to some civilian roads through, say the Swiss and Italian Alps, the Franshoek Pass (in South Africa) and Deals Gap in North Carolina - and perhaps Fiorina for testing :)

And some road cars (perhaps road car versions of the race cars in GTR to simplify things)

This would be a 98% perfect title. The 2% is for the odd ice-capades they subject you to every now and agian... ;)

[hwe]

You should also try the BMW M3 addon car, or the TVR Tuscan Speed 6 (both unofficial)

http://www.m4driving.it/download/8585.html

http://www.m4driving.it/pps_images/7/20050328-Image1bmw.jpg


http://www.m4driving.it/download/8567.html

http://www.m4driving.it/pps_images/7/20050326-gtrImage1.jpg


Alternate source: http://www.hsw.hu/sbgtrcar_eng.shtml

[RC45]

Thanks. :)

[SFDMALEX]

^^ I dunno - but I can say instead of an Arcade mode, they should have included some stock forgiving street cars - like the Z06, M3, Carrera 4 and some others as "training aids".

Well the reason arcade mode was implanted in the first place was just so they could sell a bit more the a 30 000 copies, or whatever the size of the sim community is.

As for training cars...well the Elise is damn easy, and so is the 360 :wink:

[RC45]

The M3 is a fun car. Set all manual and "real" opponents I managed an in-race 1:38.x around Laguna Seca.

However - they ended up taking each other out, and then went into the pits so I ended up winning.. hehe

Fun game - uhm simulation.

[SFDMALEX]

Fun game

:x :x :x * :slap: :snipersmile:










* j/k

[RC45]

Fun game

:x :x :x * :slap: :snipersmile:










* j/k

Where can I download 24" Dubs and body kits for my pimpin TVR? :P

And do you have any drift setups..... :D

It would be so cool if someone made D1GP AE86/Skyline/Trueno/B16/VTEC mod.... :twisted:








*j/k :P

[hwe]

The M3 is a fun car. Set all manual and "real" opponents I managed an in-race 1:38.x around Laguna Seca.

However - they ended up taking each other out, and then went into the pits so I ended up winning.. hehe

Fun game - uhm simulation.

Yes, I think the M3 is fun also, and quite easy to drive. Can be thrown around a bit, and doesn't spin to easily when powersliding

:lol: Have also had strange things happens on unoff addon tracks sometimes. But hey, addon-tracks are fun, I have downloaded 863 MB of them for GTR myself...

[RC45]

So now that the honeymoon is over... a more grounded review of GTR.

First off - that StarForce or whatever CD checker is reported as a virus by Mcaffee and Norton.. and it is a pain in the arse to have to put that CD in every time one wants to play - and if the game was not this good I would have ditched it just because of the CD.

Second - crashes to desktop every now and again can get rather frustrating since the game takes a while to load up and get through all the freaking advert video-clips. (I know I can click past them - but that means I have to stand guard over the mouse.. ;))

Third - random Frame Per Second slow downs and glitches during game play are also a pain.

And again, if it wasn't for how well this game is - these issues would have had me tossing it yesterday already.

There are many games that I have thrown out because they are a chore to run.

BTW the above issues are even without the unofficial add-on tracks and cars - and with the patch/update.

OK - onto the game itself - anyone who can't master driving the cars with a wheel and pedals is and old granny driver who goes to the village in their auto shift Geo Metro and shouldn't even be on JW :P

The cars are difficult to drive - because they are difficult cars to drive.

Now that I have mastered the BMW M3 and am able to finish in the top 3 in the NGT class on a number of tracks, I enjoy even more the fact that if I choose a ferreri 575 GTC I can expect it to kick my arse if I try pitch it into a turn like an M3... :twisted: --- because that is what would happen.

The real enjoyment of the game is when you are in 12th place fighting to pass a GT3-RS and keep the M3 behind you from passing as you hurtle towards the chicane on the backside of Donington - when all of a sudden BRAAAAAAWWHHHHWWWWWPPP --- BUBUB --- BRWAAAAAP -- BUBUB --- BRWAAAAP a 575 GTC and 2 Lambo's muscle their way up the inside late braking all 3 slower cars as you realise your "race pace" is their warmup pace.

This game does an excellent job of portraying this.

It also helps that I have a 60"TV and surround sound rumbling the whole living room :twisted: :twisted: This weekend, EVERYONE in the house had to endure a mini GT series... :)

I forgot how good the F1 and SCGT based PC sims can be.