Mercedes-Benz Today: Paying the price for their stupidity

[Sir_GT]

This is sort of old news, but I didn't come across it here, so I thought I would post it anyway.

Original article could be found here. (http://www.autocar.co.uk/News_Article.asp?NA_ID=213867&EL_ID=3116503&ST=fromcurrentresults)


Mercedes-Benz skids close to the red

Mercedes’ profits collapsed to just £12m in the final three months of 2004, the lowest level in the past decade, according to financial reports. City analysts fear that the once-bullet proof brand could actually swing into loss in the first part of 2005.

Mercedes is now paying the price, say commentators, for a decline in quality and reliability. The brand abandoned no-compromise engineering in the early 1990s as company chiefs embarked on a massive expansion of the model range that now stretches from the A-class to the Maybach limo. The firm is also struggling with Smart, which is still running up substantial losses.

Eckhard Cordes, boss of Mercedes’ automotive division, has insisted that the firm’s problems were mostly electrical, rather than more fundamental engineering problems. It’s widely believed the maker has been damaged by vehicles such as the M-class off-roader and the previous-generation E-class, which have gained a reputation for unreliability.

Sales have been sliding recently, although 2005 and 2006 will see a burst of new models, including the R-class, M-class and new S-class.

Mercedes has also registered the GLK name, which is expected to feature on a BMW X3 rival based on the 4wd C-class.


I could post a link to BMW and Audi's current sales successes for good measure, but I think the article speaks for itself.

Mercs = rubbish.

[666fast]

I could post a link to BMW and Audi's current sales successes for good measure, but I think the article speaks for itself.

Mercs = rubbish.



I agree, Mercs=rubbish. I've been saying it for sometime now! LOL
BMW is the only real contender, as Audi seems to be stuck in the "almost great" category. Maybe with Merc sliding downhill so damn much, Audi will pick up some sales. Audi first needs to do something about their terrible re-sale values.

The article doesn't surprise me, it's been coming for sometime. Merc's unreliability is nothing new, but instead of fixing it, they cranked out more products, which themselves weren't that great. With one being a glaring mistake, the holier than thou Maybach. They marketed the damn thing right at Celebrities, who need the latest great thing to make themselves seem important. It was only a matter of time untill it dropped off the radar.
Who cares about the Maybach now? Nobody, thats who.

[SilviaEvo]

BMW>MERC

[ZfrkS62]

Examples: A Mercedes tech just finish re-ringing the engine on an ML because it was burning off 2 qts of oil within 1200 miles. It's been doing this since it was at 40,000 miles, and it's at 60,000 now.

The S classes are notorious for blowing out their air springs and going into a lowrider like stance where the front wheels are sucked into the fenders.

I've seen 2 E classes roll in with blown out sunroofs because the pressure inside the car increases and the air inside expands when it gets hot and blows out the sunroof.

[MBW124]

It's sad to know that Mercedes hasn't been the same since the merge.

This is why I definately love my old Merc because the built quality is superb and can't be beat. Everyone on the car is high quality german parts. And now...all the parts are just rubbish on the new cars. Long live the W124. :)

[5vz-fe]

I wonder that fall in sales have anything to do with their results in F1 last year :roll:

[Akmon]

I can't think Mercedes is going down!
But I remember the notorious problems the E class and the A class had too.
Now,my question is?Do we really want Mercedes to go down?
I think they still have the power of making some great cars!

[blah]

It's sad to know that Mercedes hasn't been the same since the merge.

This is why I definately love my old Merc because the built quality is superb and can't be beat. Everyone on the car is high quality german parts. And now...all the parts are just rubbish on the new cars. Long live the W124. :)

you on mbworld?


I highly doubt Mercedes will go down. Especially with the launch of the new S, G, and ML classes coming. 2005 will see profits rise. Also Diamler in general is making some good money with Chryslers 300, Dodges magnum, and dakota, and new neon coming out.

[MBW124]

It's sad to know that Mercedes hasn't been the same since the merge.

This is why I definately love my old Merc because the built quality is superb and can't be beat. Everyone on the car is high quality german parts. And now...all the parts are just rubbish on the new cars. Long live the W124. :)

you on mbworld?


I highly doubt Mercedes will go down. Especially with the launch of the new S, G, and ML classes coming. 2005 will see profits rise. Also Diamler in general is making some good money with Chryslers 300, Dodges magnum, and dakota, and new neon coming out.

why yes I am. :) What's your member name over there?

[23790554]

oh well

[23790554]

oh well

[Sir_GT]

Believe it or not, I used to be a very big fan of Mercedes. I was fortunate enough to grow up around them (My grandfather was a Mercedes enthusiast, and my father ended up a petrol-head as well, and so I'm sort of carrying a family tradition), and I have seen where they used to stand, and where they are now, (My father still has my grandfather's pristine 280SL, and the other Mercs were handed down to my uncles and aunts.) and believe me, they are nothing but a shell of their former self.

Mercedes used to be the brand that people would aspire to own when they hit it big, or before they win the lottery and buy a Rolls-Royce, whichever came first. Everytime Mercedes came out with a new model, it was almost like an event. Their GT's were the stuff of legend. Wide, low, luxurious, and nearly unbreakable. They had engines that would last for decades, let alone years. When you would open the door of a Mercedes, the scent of the leather would just grace your nostrils, beckoning you to sit in, and when you gave in to the temptation, it felt like you had to take the car home, no matter what the cost.

Now... sit in a basic E-class and you smell... cloth. Cheap cloth. You run your fingers over the dashboard... plastic. You drive it and it feels... generic. You try to change gears on their automatics... it doesn't want to listen. A month old, and one of the rear brake LEDs die out. Crikey, you think, is this what I paid £30-odd grand for? So you walk into the dealer six months after for a trade in, and then they tell you that you've just lost 7 grand on it.

Imagine. A Mercedes loses 7 thousand british sterling of it's value in 6 months. That's about a few grand over 10 thousand dollars. For that kind of money, you would've SAVED money if your house had been broken in and robbed instead.

Still. You persevere and try to convince yourself that not all is lost. You've still got a three pointed star glistening brightly on the peak of your hood. A sense of regal finally, you think.

Then suddenly, as you pull up to the stop light. A mercedes Vaneo van pulls up alongside you, being driven by a fat, smelly, tatooed, overweight driver, in a sleeveless top, smoking a cigarette with the windows down, then he spits.

The glory of the three pointed star? Sod it. It's gone. Completely eroded by the "new" company's twisted policies. Gone is the Mercedes Benz I grew up with. Now we have Mercedes Bent. Nothing more than a shadow of what they used to be.

Blah. Things change as they say. Now BMW's king, and Audi is becoming the "new BMW". Why is BMW going from strength to strength? Because they have a clear vision of who they are, and what the company stands for. They are out to build the best driving machine available, a feat which they have accomplished time and time again. Audi wants to prove that they are a technological/engineering marvel, and they are going to great lengths to do so. Will Mercedes ever regain their former glory? Only if they remember who they really are... or were... the -former- makers of the world's finest automobiles.

Cheers.

[MercedeSChink]

sigh...another thread on mercedes flaming...i must say, being a merc fan all my life, it is sad to see merc go down like this...

[blah]

every company goes through cycles of bad and good. no big deal.

you all are talking like MB is finished...LOL. It's just temporary. MB still build fine cars....just cos they can't run fast laps on a track doesn't mean anything. For long distance cruising, i still can't think of a better way to do it then a big ass Mercedes ;)

MB will always be more prestigious than BMW or Audi.....no matter what those 2 companies do. MB was the inventor of the modern automobile...and it's here to stay. Like Blah said, Chrysler is just starting to pick up profits, and MB is announcing several new models in the next year. I think they'll be fine ;)

*cough* but i'll still take an Audi *cough*

BTW, General Motors is a company who is really fucked:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8301&sid=175&n=156

My Car list

RS4 for the winter
C55 for daily Driving
M3 for the weekend.

[blah]

Also my MBworld name is DancingBenzos whats yours?

[HeilSvenska]

BTW, General Motors is a company who is really fucked:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8301&sid=175&n=156

But of course. Any company that's willing to buy Daewoo has problems, not to mention "alliances" with Suzuki and Isuzu.

And the failure to take over FIAT (which i consider GM of Italy) left GM to pay 1.55 billion Euros to FIAT.

[ZfrkS62]

I've seen 2 E classes roll in with blown out sunroofs because the pressure inside the car increases and the air inside expands when it gets hot and blows out the sunroof.

Sounds weird... :?

BTW, Mercedes-Benz have been developing some all-new models like the R and the B-Klasse... and improving the ML, the S... a lot of developing and R+D costs... so I think that when those cars hit the road... profits will raise again... no doubt about it. However, I'm with you when you say that they should have improved their reliability instead of creating more and more and more models... Do we really need the B and the R-Klasse? do we really need a X3 rival? do we really need the CLS (it's absolutely beautiful, I know... but still useless)?

That's what Mercedes said happens. I found it quite curious when i saw the sunroof in the morning and it was blown out with the remenants pointing upwards. Especially when the day before the roof was intact.

There was no glass inside the car because the visor was still closed so that ruled out someone punching it from inside.

Later one of the guys told me what happens to them occasionally and MB can't figure out how to rectify the problem.

[racer_f50]

Serves them right, really. I'm not a fan of Mercedes at all (the new SLK is the only one that half-way appeals to me), but any company who's actually going DOWNWARD in reliability and quality deserves to go under. same stuff happened to most american car companies (at least when foreign cars started pouring in). They just have to clean up their act, produce some quality stuff, and they'll be all set again.

[Sir_GT]

every company goes through cycles of bad and good. no big deal.

you all are talking like MB is finished...LOL. It's just temporary. MB still build fine cars....just cos they can't run fast laps on a track doesn't mean anything. For long distance cruising, i still can't think of a better way to do it then a big ass Mercedes ;)

MB will always be more prestigious than BMW or Audi.....no matter what those 2 companies do. MB was the inventor of the modern automobile...and it's here to stay. Like Blah said, Chrysler is just starting to pick up profits, and MB is announcing several new models in the next year. I think they'll be fine ;)


As a company? Yes. A a brand? No. They've already permanently eroded their former prestige.

[blah]

every company goes through cycles of bad and good. no big deal.

you all are talking like MB is finished...LOL. It's just temporary. MB still build fine cars....just cos they can't run fast laps on a track doesn't mean anything. For long distance cruising, i still can't think of a better way to do it then a big ass Mercedes ;)

MB will always be more prestigious than BMW or Audi.....no matter what those 2 companies do. MB was the inventor of the modern automobile...and it's here to stay. Like Blah said, Chrysler is just starting to pick up profits, and MB is announcing several new models in the next year. I think they'll be fine ;)


As a company? Yes. A a brand? No. They've already permanently eroded their former prestige.

i wouldnt take it that far. The new S-Class will once again show why people by Mercs.

[hemi_fan]

I've seen 2 E classes roll in with blown out sunroofs because the pressure inside the car increases and the air inside expands when it gets hot and blows out the sunroof.

Sounds weird... :?

BTW, Mercedes-Benz have been developing some all-new models like the R and the B-Klasse... and improving the ML, the S... a lot of developing and R+D costs... so I think that when those cars hit the road... profits will raise again... no doubt about it. However, I'm with you when you say that they should have improved their reliability instead of creating more and more and more models... Do we really need the B and the R-Klasse? do we really need a X3 rival? do we really need the CLS (it's absolutely beautiful, I know... but still useless)?

That's what Mercedes said happens. I found it quite curious when i saw the sunroof in the morning and it was blown out with the remenants pointing upwards. Especially when the day before the roof was intact.

There was no glass inside the car because the visor was still closed so that ruled out someone punching it from inside.

Later one of the guys told me what happens to them occasionally and MB can't figure out how to rectify the problem.

So are you saying that the car is completely air-tight!?! If so, i think a blown out sunroof is the least of your problems... and kiss long-distance cruises goodbye, cuz as soon as the bad weather hits and you hafta close up your windows, the oxygen level will become an issue... :shock:

[Sir_GT]

every company goes through cycles of bad and good. no big deal.

you all are talking like MB is finished...LOL. It's just temporary. MB still build fine cars....just cos they can't run fast laps on a track doesn't mean anything. For long distance cruising, i still can't think of a better way to do it then a big ass Mercedes ;)

MB will always be more prestigious than BMW or Audi.....no matter what those 2 companies do. MB was the inventor of the modern automobile...and it's here to stay. Like Blah said, Chrysler is just starting to pick up profits, and MB is announcing several new models in the next year. I think they'll be fine ;)


As a company? Yes. A a brand? No. They've already permanently eroded their former prestige.

i wouldnt take it that far. The new S-Class will once again show why people buy Mercs.

The new S-class has a 7-series interior, and a 7-series bootlid. So their method to return to form is to copy their biggest rival's car? That doesn't exactly seem like they've (Mercedes) been "inspired" to bring back the good ol' days. Regardless, I highly doubt that the new S-class will be "the" model anyway. It's too generic. Too predictable. Boring in fact.

Besides, even if the quality was back to old Mercedes standard, it doesn't change the fact that there is a Vaneo lurking in the background, closely followed by the A-class (literally a golf cart in the middle east) and the B-class.

Talk about appropriate. B-class.

:roll:

[666fast]

every company goes through cycles of bad and good. no big deal.

you all are talking like MB is finished...LOL. It's just temporary. MB still build fine cars....just cos they can't run fast laps on a track doesn't mean anything. For long distance cruising, i still can't think of a better way to do it then a big ass Mercedes ;)

MB will always be more prestigious than BMW or Audi.....no matter what those 2 companies do. MB was the inventor of the modern automobile...and it's here to stay. Like Blah said, Chrysler is just starting to pick up profits, and MB is announcing several new models in the next year. I think they'll be fine ;)


As a company? Yes. A a brand? No. They've already permanently eroded their former prestige.

i wouldnt take it that far. The new S-Class will once again show why people by Mercs.

If they can get their customer base back. Merc isn't gonna go out of business, but they alienated a whole lot of people with thier past lineup. If I bought a Merc and had all of those problems, it would be the last Merc I'd own. I know I'm not the only one who feel that way as well. Their record low income is proof of that.
They've got thier work cutout for them, and two or three new products won't matter much if no one buys them. I wish them the best of luck, but it won't be easy.

[ZfrkS62]

I've seen 2 E classes roll in with blown out sunroofs because the pressure inside the car increases and the air inside expands when it gets hot and blows out the sunroof.

Sounds weird... :?

BTW, Mercedes-Benz have been developing some all-new models like the R and the B-Klasse... and improving the ML, the S... a lot of developing and R+D costs... so I think that when those cars hit the road... profits will raise again... no doubt about it. However, I'm with you when you say that they should have improved their reliability instead of creating more and more and more models... Do we really need the B and the R-Klasse? do we really need a X3 rival? do we really need the CLS (it's absolutely beautiful, I know... but still useless)?

That's what Mercedes said happens. I found it quite curious when i saw the sunroof in the morning and it was blown out with the remenants pointing upwards. Especially when the day before the roof was intact.

There was no glass inside the car because the visor was still closed so that ruled out someone punching it from inside.

Later one of the guys told me what happens to them occasionally and MB can't figure out how to rectify the problem.

So are you saying that the car is completely air-tight!?! If so, i think a blown out sunroof is the least of your problems... and kiss long-distance cruises goodbye, cuz as soon as the bad weather hits and you hafta close up your windows, the oxygen level will become an issue... :shock:

I wouldn't say they are air tight because the same type of problem is common with every car in Phoenix, AZ. and last i checked, a Nissan Sentra is not airtight :wink: But on those, any kind of window blows out. Commonly the side and rear windows.

With any car though, you can set the AC to fresh air and get the air going back through the car. The only car you can get that is air tight is a 7 Protection, which literally, will prevent any sort of nerve gas getting in the car. I don't think Merc has anything like this.

[neilo63]

Thats what happens when you try to monopolise the market with bland monotone cars and your premium "supercars" and sports cars all use the same unexclusive engines. They also have replaced parts rather than are re-designed specifically for a purpose; that is other than money grabbing from ignorant posers.

[RC45]

^^^ True - Mercedes Benz is not icon it once was.

[jakaracman]

If I bought a Merc and had all of those problems, it would be the last Merc I'd own.
You reeally think only MB has those probs? CheckA8 reliability, it's no better. Only 7-serises is a bit ahead, but those new, complicated cars have and will have probs ...

[666fast]

If I bought a Merc and had all of those problems, it would be the last Merc I'd own.
You reeally think only MB has those probs? CheckA8 reliability, it's no better. Only 7-serises is a bit ahead, but those new, complicated cars have and will have probs ...

Yet Merc was the only one to drop their warranty program.

[blah]

^^^ True - Mercedes Benz is not icon it once was.


True but every company goes through those dark days. American companies and the 80s. Lambo when it wasnt sure of its future at all. BMW in the begging stages of Bangle.

[Just_me]

^^^ True - Mercedes Benz is not icon it once was.


True but every company goes through those dark days. American companies and the 80s. Lambo when it wasnt sure of its future at all. BMW in the begging stages of Bangle.

BMW was never so deep when Bangle took over. At the moment Mercedes is so deep under the shit that they almost can't breath anymore.

Mercedes better fix this ( Im sure they will but not over a night).

[RC45]

BMW was just a visual design issue.. not fundamental business and product direction flaws.

[ZfrkS62]

^^^ True - Mercedes Benz is not icon it once was.


True but every company goes through those dark days. American companies and the 80s. Lambo when it wasnt sure of its future at all. BMW in the begging stages of Bangle.

BMW was NOT as shitty of a company as what MB is right now. They have been on the rise since the days of the E23 7 series which is what BMW owes a very large part of their luxury class success to.

The only time i can think of that BMW was ever in trouble was after WW1 and 2 when Germany was banned from making aircraft. That's when they got into motorcycles and cars. the did reasonbly well until the E23 was introduced, and then they took off.

Although the 3 series is their bread and butter, the 7 is their flagship, simply because it brought them the success and reputation that they have now.

[Sir_GT]

^^^ True - Mercedes Benz is not icon it once was.


True but every company goes through those dark days. American companies and the 80s. Lambo when it wasnt sure of its future at all. BMW in the begging stages of Bangle.

Correction mate. Overall, only 3 of the "volume" car companies's sales grew during the last 5 years.. Effectively Bangle's reign. BMW being the only luxury brand of the 3.

Bangle's "misfire" made the "ugly" 7 the best selling 7 series ever. In fact, BMW are so far ahead of everybody right now it's incredibly. They're the best selling german brand in the UK AND in the US for the 3rd year running, and that's official.

[SPEEDKILLAR]

I haven't a lot of time these days......

All I can say is :( :cry: :(


lol


MB WILL BE BACK :twisted:

[nthfinity]

good to see you again, speedkillar ;) keep defending MB, makes it quite a good read 8)

[JiggaStyles09]

good to see you again, speedkillar ;) keep defending MB, makes it quite a good read 8)

agreed, welcome back speedkillar, good to see your back posting on JW and defending the great MB :P

and yea im sure MB will be back, a lot will be riding on the upcoming S class and ML class and they seem to be promising vehicles IMO. time will tell

[blah]

I haven't a lot of time these days......

All I can say is :( :cry: :(


lol


MB WILL BE BACK :twisted:

I cant defend on my own damnit. Help me out here.

[graywolf624]

My mb source, recall the slr stuff, is none too happy with their switch ways back from quality to brand image marketing. There isnt a push, yet, for a return to the roots in the US sadly.

[ZfrkS62]

While i'm not a huge fan of MB, i am saddened to see the brand reduced to it's current state. Presteige means nothing to Mercede$ anymore. The SLK600v(or is it just SL?) that we sold for 135,826USD was one of the most uncomfortable cars i have ever ridden in. I think all they paid for was the 6.0 bi-turbo V12. The suede roof liner was unimpressive to say the most, and the center console was just crude.

Presteige has given way to profit. But both of them are in the shitter at this point.

I'm glad i never turn on Cribs and see a garage full of bling'd out BMW's. If i did i would hang my head in shame. But i always get depressed seeing 22 inch chrome spinners ruining the look of what was once a sign of class :roll:

All they have to do is dissolve the merger with Chrysler and i thnk the rebuilding can begin. :|

[blah]

You didnt like the SL600? Ive ridden in one and i was damn impressed by it. Much better than its competitor, the XLR. I still defend BMW but i also defend Merc now too.


Side note, my dads rear left side door wont unlock or lock when you press the button, has to be unlocked by hand.

[ZfrkS62]

You didnt like the SL600? Ive ridden in one and i was damn impressed by it. Much better than its competitor, the XLR. I still defend BMW but i also defend Merc now too.


Side note, my dads rear left side door wont unlock or lock when you press the button, has to be unlocked by hand.

The power was impressive, but the overall quality left alot to be desired.

Chances are your dad's issue is the lock actuator.

[oantob]

Blame it to the Chrysler...since Daimler joined.
but what I know, Daimler Chrysler built a factory at china. Maybe this is one of many factors Merc is not a good car anymore
thats why I like merc cars at year 1998 and below...

[ZfrkS62]

Blame it to the Chrysler...since Daimler joined.
but what I know, Daimler Chrysler built a factory at china. Maybe this is one of many factors Merc is not a good car anymore
thats why I like merc cars at year 1998 and below...

Not hardly. BMW also built a plant in China to roll out about 300,000 cars and their sales/quality has not declined one bit.

Mercedes is trying to appeal to everyone in their market segment. Which simply cannot be done because it forces too many compromises. They have no clear cut demographic. BMW at least has their sights set on the luxury performance enthusiast who wants a sportier car more than a yuppie taxi.

The more defined your demographicis, to a certain point, the least amount of compromises you need to make and a higher quality vehicle you can make.

[blah]

Well BMW is one step under porsche in perfection. So there you go. :D

[Sir_GT]

Well BMW is one step under porsche in perfection. So there you go. :D

No one will argue that. Not even me. Lol.

BTW, dunno if this is old news, but I just saw it today on Autocar magazine: BMW posted record profits. £1.54 billion. That's about $2.77 billion.

Mercedes has a hilariously long way to go.

[blah]

Well BMW is one step under porsche in perfection. So there you go. :D

No one will argue that. Not even me. Lol.

BTW, dunno if this is old news, but I just saw it today on Autocar magazine: BMW posted record profits. £1.54 billion. That's about $2.77 billion.

Mercedes has a hilariously long way to go.

well if merc would stop pumping out stupid AMG engines with so much torque that they are the same speed as the non amgs under 100 then maybe they could get some reliability work done.

[ZfrkS62]

Well BMW is one step under porsche in perfection. So there you go. :D

No one will argue that. Not even me. Lol.

BTW, dunno if this is old news, but I just saw it today on Autocar magazine: BMW posted record profits. £1.54 billion. That's about $2.77 billion.

Mercedes has a hilariously long way to go.

Yeah, i believe it was a 7% sales increase for Feb. for BMW-AG and 24% :shock: hike in the US..i need to look that up when i get home so that i know what i'm saying for sure.

They are also buying back 10% of the outstanding shares of BMW-AG and that news sent stock prices soaring...I need to buy into this.....


Well BMW is one step under porsche in perfection. So there you go.


Closing in too :D i'm waiting for the battle between Porsche and BMW :twisted: That should produce some interesting, if not scary results :twisted:

[blah]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.

[RC45]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.

Don't be so quick to knock the Vette though - it is the single longest continuous production model - ever. :P

[ZfrkS62]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.

That never even occurred to me :oops:

[pimrusis]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.


Are you saying that we should be scared of change? This is a really stupid idea that you put forth here. Having no noticable difference between two cars is short-sighted. Another point is that it is important for a car's recipe to stay the same. Like they said in Top Gear, the Corvette has always been purpose built to be a sports car, like the Porsche. Just because they changed the shape doesn't mean that it isn't as good as a car whose shape hasn't changed.

[blah]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.


Are you saying that we should be scared of change? This is a really stupid idea that you put forth here. Having no noticable difference between two cars is short-sighted. Another point is that it is important for a car's recipe to stay the same. Like they said in Top Gear, the Corvette has always been purpose built to be a sports car, like the Porsche. Just because they changed the shape doesn't mean that it isn't as good as a car whose shape hasn't changed.

what? Im saying the 911 has sold without even having to change its shape over the past 40 years. Nor change its engine until the 996.

[Sir_GT]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.


Are you saying that we should be scared of change? This is a really stupid idea that you put forth here. Having no noticable difference between two cars is short-sighted. Another point is that it is important for a car's recipe to stay the same. Like they said in Top Gear, the Corvette has always been purpose built to be a sports car, like the Porsche. Just because they changed the shape doesn't mean that it isn't as good as a car whose shape hasn't changed.

what? Im saying the 911 has sold without even having to change its shape over the past 40 years. Nor change its engine until the 996.

Well, they might just have to change the engine again now, especially with the upcoming M3 having a 400+ bhp V8 underneath the hood, and with a price that undercuts the Carrera S.

[blah]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.


Are you saying that we should be scared of change? This is a really stupid idea that you put forth here. Having no noticable difference between two cars is short-sighted. Another point is that it is important for a car's recipe to stay the same. Like they said in Top Gear, the Corvette has always been purpose built to be a sports car, like the Porsche. Just because they changed the shape doesn't mean that it isn't as good as a car whose shape hasn't changed.

what? Im saying the 911 has sold without even having to change its shape over the past 40 years. Nor change its engine until the 996.

Well, they might just have to change the engine again now, especially with the upcoming M3 having a 400+ bhp V8 underneath the hood, and with a price that undercuts the Carrera S.

doubt it the next 911 Turbo is gonna be over 500 HP or more. The next M3 will probably be at a 12.7 or so car, when compared with other cars at that HP. Might even be a 12.9 same as a Carrera S. No doubt from a roll though that the m3s higher HP would probably win the day.

[ZfrkS62]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.


Are you saying that we should be scared of change? This is a really stupid idea that you put forth here. Having no noticable difference between two cars is short-sighted. Another point is that it is important for a car's recipe to stay the same. Like they said in Top Gear, the Corvette has always been purpose built to be a sports car, like the Porsche. Just because they changed the shape doesn't mean that it isn't as good as a car whose shape hasn't changed.

what? Im saying the 911 has sold without even having to change its shape over the past 40 years. Nor change its engine until the 996.

Well, they might just have to change the engine again now, especially with the upcoming M3 having a 400+ bhp V8 underneath the hood, and with a price that undercuts the Carrera S.

doubt it the next 911 Turbo is gonna be over 500 HP or more. The next M3 will probably be at a 12.7 or so car, when compared with other cars at that HP. Might even be a 12.9 same as a Carrera S. No doubt from a roll though that the m3s higher HP would probably win the day.

What did i say earlier about BMW catching up to Porsche? :P :D Of course, Porsches are much better balanced cars tha BMWs, i will give them that. I wouldn't be surprised if the E90 M3 is 3-4 seconds slower around the Ring than the next 911.

[Sir_GT]

Porsche is an Institue that should not be messed with. It says something when you can run a company off just one car. Then to really piss of the Ferrraris, and Lamborghinis while they worry about money and getting bought out, stay independent and then not change the shape of the 911 for 40 years now. You can take the 911 (911) and put it next to a 997 911 and tell its the same car. Try doing that with the first Corvette, and the lastest C6.


Are you saying that we should be scared of change? This is a really stupid idea that you put forth here. Having no noticable difference between two cars is short-sighted. Another point is that it is important for a car's recipe to stay the same. Like they said in Top Gear, the Corvette has always been purpose built to be a sports car, like the Porsche. Just because they changed the shape doesn't mean that it isn't as good as a car whose shape hasn't changed.

what? Im saying the 911 has sold without even having to change its shape over the past 40 years. Nor change its engine until the 996.

Well, they might just have to change the engine again now, especially with the upcoming M3 having a 400+ bhp V8 underneath the hood, and with a price that undercuts the Carrera S.

doubt it the next 911 Turbo is gonna be over 500 HP or more. The next M3 will probably be at a 12.7 or so car, when compared with other cars at that HP. Might even be a 12.9 same as a Carrera S. No doubt from a roll though that the m3s higher HP would probably win the day.

A Carrera Turbo will not be in the same price range as an M3, so that's not exactly a fair comparison IMO. Cheapest 911 here is the Carrera, which is £55 grand, then the Carrera S, which is £65 grand.

Theoretically, the next M3 will undercut even the Carrera, but might just outperform the Carrera S. I won't deny that a Porsche is a Porsche, but there's no denying that Porsche will have a lot to do in order to justify their asking price aside from relying on the desirability of their brand.