***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife***

[st-anger]

...read it first - here on JW 8)

...i can´t believe what i´ve just heared - in spring 2005, so not that far away, HvS from Sport Auto will get a Ferrari Enzo Ferrari for their Supertest, and from what i have heared they´ll get it directly from the factory :shock: - now i´d like to hear some confidential infos if anyone from the Ferrari freaks in here have heared anything about the rumours that Ferrari has been working on a special Nordschleife setup for the Enzo after they received MASSIVE complaints - of course everything in the background - why they don´t respond to the Carrera GT´s (http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?p=50110#50110) lap time and whenever a comparison took place on a track the GT´s been in front...

so we know that during industry pool sessions Ferrari sometimes rented a workshop inside the industrial park right next to the NS and they clocked quite some laps with an Enzo - there´s also a rumour that Ferrari now has a so called "full car" test rig from AVL where engineers can simulate all stored tracks on the car itself, i only know that VAG, BMW and Porsche have such a ( extremely sophisticated and expensive ) test rig...

...as HvS told some time ago... "Sport Auto is just a kinda small mag and basically consists and concentrates on only one thing - the Supertest - but the results of this test are known all over the world because NO other information source is providing onfidential and detailed infos about the hardest challenge for any sports car - a timed lap on the Nordschleife..."

...this says it all IMO - an outstanding lap time at NS is good for becomming a classic and reaching automotive heaven, let´s hope that Ferrari will continue this project for all their future cars, personally i´m definitely looking forward to an interesting challenge Ferrari vs Porsche ( and all the others :wink: ) at the Nordschleife and can´t wait for the SA Supertest in spring/summer 05... :P

[bmagni]

YEAH BABY !!!! This is great news !!! finally we'll get the results...
excellent news st.anger, as always

so considering this equipment they have and the workshope they rented, u think it might beat the CGT ??

[Anonymous]

...read it first - here on JW 8)

But of course, what don't ya hear on JW :D, indeed alot of people have been waiting for this should be very interesting indeed, i'd love to see an incar vid of this with the timer ticking down from the CGT time :-) .... but the weight would slow it down i guess :D Thanks for the info, can't wait to see the result


Ferrari has been working on a special Nordschleife setup for the Enzo after they received MASSIVE complaints - of course everything in the background - why they don´t respond to the Carrera GT´s (http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?p=50110#50110) lap time and whenever a comparison took place on a track the GT´s been in front...



BTW, not on the Top Gear track :P which is of course the recognised independant benchmark for all cars :P (and totally un biased too :D)

Top Gear power Lap times

1st Ferrari Enzo - 1.19.0

2nd Ariel Atom - 1.19.5

3rd Porsche Carerra GT - 1.19.8

:mrgreen:

[st-anger]

^...WTF is Top Gear :mrgreen:

[skituner]

ohh man im soo exicted

[Anonymous]

^...WTF is Top Gear :mrgreen:

LMAO...... rumour has it that some sites on the internet have videos of it.... haven't found them yet though :wink:

[saadie]

^...WTF is Top Gear :mrgreen:

you are so right ...
this is excitng .. thx fer the info :D

[st-anger]

^...WTF is Top Gear :mrgreen:

LMAO...... rumour has it that some sites on the internet have videos of it.... haven't found them yet though :wink:

...i see...have heared though that those ppl on that site should be real asses - one´d have to do strage things to actually get that vids - wicked stuff... :roll:

:lol:

naaaa, seriously - personally i don´t have that much respect for the TG lap times - but that´s just my opinion... :wink:

[stradale]

Oh man, that's very exciting! :D I hope Ferrari will indeed test the car at the NS and adjust the settings accordingly. Otherwise it's not really a fair comparison with the CGT, which has been tested and honed on the NS specifically.

[Anonymous]

^...WTF is Top Gear :mrgreen:

LMAO...... rumour has it that some sites on the internet have videos of it.... haven't found them yet though :wink:

...i see...have heared though that those ppl on that site should be real asses - one´d have to do strage things to actually get that vids - wicked stuff... :roll:

:lol:

naaaa, seriously - personally i don´t have that much respect for the TG lap times - but that´s just my opinion... :wink:

Yep its just a bit of fun really :wink: (sorry for taking this off topic BTW LOL )

[sentra_dude]

Whoa! Definitely heard it first on JW! 8)

Anyone want to start placing bets on the time...? :D So, are we to understand this car will have its own unique suspension set-up, just for the Nordschleife? Will that include special tires as well? Or did I completely misinterpret what you said st-anger?

[nejcdolinsek]

This is awesome news!!!!

Will you be scanning the article when it comes out st-anger??? :D :wink:

[ZfrkS62]

:multi: :onfire: :multi: :onfire: :multi: :onfire: :multi:

ohboyohboyohboyohboyohboyohboy!!!!!!!!!! I can't wait to see what it turns in :onfire: Somebody who lives near the NS, find out when this is to take place and set up on one of those ridges where all these M5/6 vids and such have come from and get some clips :D i'd be willing to bet :grab: (<-- it'll come out of nowhere and head back just as fast)

[|Nuno|]

HOLY SHIT!!! That's amazing news! :D :D :D Can't wait! :multi:

[sameerrao]

So when's the date of the test?

[st-anger]

...sentra, when it comes out of the factory it´ll definitely be a so called "factory prepared" car - well of course i bet Ferrari won´t comment on that, better said they´ll say it´s a std. car :wink: - but who cares, as mentioned by stradale it´s just good for a fair comparison...
don´t know what exactely they´ll change - of course - but a NS suspension setup is definitely the key to probably beat the GT...

nejcdolinsek, of course i´ll scan it for u guys - right now i´m scanning/editing the CLK DTM article :wink:

ZfrkS62, will see what i can do - of course it won´t be as easy to find out like when it´d be a Porsche but let´s wait and see... :)

sameerrao, lol, ask HvS and i´m sure not even he knows - again Ferrari promised that SA will get an Enzo - well, now i think it´s up to Ferrari to keep their promise and deliver one - whenever it´ll be... :D

[ZfrkS62]

dammit..i'm just as excited for this as i was waiting for GT4 to come out :D

[mindgam3]

nice, im guessing the enzo will be faster - question is by how much?

[mv]

Reading the title of the topic I really got excited :o ... But then it was a cold shower to get to know it's that far. I predict the CGT's time will be beaten as it reportedly wasn't the best Walter could do.

[nejcdolinsek]

nice, im guessing the enzo will be faster - question is by how much?

Hmmm..... personally, I think its gonna be very hard for the Enzo to beat the CGT, because Porsche developed the GT at the 'ring... Ferrari just doesnt have the experience to setup the car properly IMO...

But it will be close!!!

[dropot2]

I haven't heard anything abouth that but...I've been waiting for this for a long time!!! :D

[twboy1999]

cgt still going to be faster
simply because it is running a higher downforce setup

[|Nuno|]

cgt still going to be faster
simply because it is running a higher downforce setup

No. The Enzo has more downforce than the Carrera GT.

If it will be faster or not, I don't know.

[nejcdolinsek]

cgt still going to be faster
simply because it is running a higher downforce setup

No. The Enzo has more downforce than the Carrera GT.

If it will be faster or not, I don't know.

True. The Enzo generates almost 800 kg( :shock: ) of downforce at 300km/h...

[mindgam3]

cgt still going to be faster
simply because it is running a higher downforce setup

No. The Enzo has more downforce than the Carrera GT.

If it will be faster or not, I don't know.

True. The Enzo generates almost 800 kg( :shock: ) of downforce at 300km/h...

or more realistically 300 @ 124mph ;)

[|Nuno|]

cgt still going to be faster
simply because it is running a higher downforce setup

No. The Enzo has more downforce than the Carrera GT.

If it will be faster or not, I don't know.

True. The Enzo generates almost 800 kg( :shock: ) of downforce at 300km/h...

or more realistically 300 @ 124mph ;)

335, to be more specific. :P [/picky]

[ferrarif1fan89]

wow, this is gonna be awesome. cant wait to see video.

[robruf]

I believe that this is the best news that I have heard all year so far, cannot wait for the day that this happens, it is going to be exciting for sure. I guess that Ferrari is going to have do something great for the Enzo to beat the Carrera GT at the N-Ring

[nejcdolinsek]

cgt still going to be faster
simply because it is running a higher downforce setup

No. The Enzo has more downforce than the Carrera GT.

If it will be faster or not, I don't know.

True. The Enzo generates almost 800 kg( :shock: ) of downforce at 300km/h...

or more realistically 300 @ 124mph ;)

335, to be more specific. :P [/picky]

Ferrari tells us that at 124 mph, the Enzo can generate 758 lb. of downforce. The aerodynamic load tops out at 1709 lb. at 185 mph, then decreases to 1290 lb. for less drag so the car can reach its maximum estimated speed of 218 mph.


From R&T: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?print_page=y&section_id=3&article_id=627&page_number=1

1709 lb = 775 kg...... I rest my case :wink:

[astonmartinandy]

Even with more downforce, this is going to be a fantastic test. I think Ferrari are definitely within their right to set the car up for NS, especially with slightly softer springs I would imagine. Porsche always hone their cars on the NS and so would naturally be the favourite, but the Enzo's speed and downforce will provide a great test!

[twboy1999]

how much downforce is cgt running? at what speed enzo generate 775kg of downforce?? probably a pretty speed

cgt may not have the highest load of downforce of above 775kg... but even at a little high speed.. the wing is out.. and got knows how much downforce they are generating

[|Nuno|]

at what speed enzo generate 775kg of downforce??

Explained above. :wink:


how much downforce is cgt running?

400 Kg at 205 mph, so I doubt it produces more than the Enzo at lower speeds. Heck, the Enzo generates almost that at 124mph...

But in this test the key factor won't be downforce, but a good suspension setup.

[lakatu]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I think that it is two different things to say that the CGT is tuned ON the NS and that the CGT is tuned FOR the NS. It is my understanding that Porsche uses the NS to tune their cars because they believe that it represents a microcosm of the variety of road experiences that a driver will encounter. If a car can performs well on the NS then it will be able to handle anything the real world will through at it.

However you can look at the various tuners that especially design their cars suspensions to perform on the NS so that they can receive the recognition that only a fast lap time at NS can bring. Try driving these cars on the road. I would be willing to bet that they would perform similar to a 964 RS which had the reputation of being unbeatable on the track but undrivable to the track.

The CGT currently is defiantly drivable to the track. If Porsche wanted to I am sure they could sort the suspension to provide a much faster NS lap time but would be undrivable on the road.

The driver for certain will be HvS (Horst von Saurma). He does all of the Supertests including the CGT with its lap times of 7:32.4 and 7:40 on a cold partially wet track.

[st-anger]

^^^have waited for a reply like this one, VERY well said lakatu 8)

It is my understanding that Porsche uses the NS to tune their cars because they believe that it represents a microcosm of the variety of road experiences that a driver will encounter. If a car can performs well on the NS then it will be able to handle anything the real world will through at it.

^^^ perfect summary :)

...sure it´s Ferrari´s "right" to bring an Enzo to the ´ring with a special NS setup - BUT - as u already mentioned, the GT´s been designed as a super sports car one can drive every day and not only at the track...
we know that a std Enzo isn´t "good enough" for a fast lap at NS, i´ve posted that before in Porsche News that an Enzo hit the ground several times and especially in the Karussel when it was tested on NS last year due to its F1 track like suspension setup, so they simply HAVE to do something to the car...

so i´m perfectly with u here - wouldn´t surprise me if an Enzo with some kind of special setup will outrun a "standard" GT...

on the other hand i agree 110% - when a GT with a NS setup will show up - no other car with whatever setup could touch that time by at least 6-10 seconds...

nevertheless - can´t wait to hold the mag in my hands whenever it´ll come out... :P

[mindgam3]

on the other hand i agree 110% - when a GT with a NS setup will show up - no other car with whatever setup could touch that time by at least 6-10 seconds...


not strictly true, there's the radical (7:18ish) and the new V8 radical which will probably run the ring in around 7 minutes flat, and are both road cars ;)

But then again these are more track than road cars - having said that, the CGT is about 8 times more expensive ;)

[raphaelws]

8) amazing..
let's wait to see.. what ferrari come up with next..

[st-anger]

on the other hand i agree 110% - when a GT with a NS setup will show up - no other car with whatever setup could touch that time by at least 6-10 seconds...
...and are both road cars ;)

lol, don´t think that i have "forgotten" about those .... "cars" .... that said u might see that i don´t have any respect for such cars claiming the fastest NS lap, they have nothing in common with cars like whatever class, GT3-CSL-F430 class or now the Zonda S-GT-Enzo class...

it´s nice to have such rides like Donky D8 RS, Radicals, ... but they have nothing to do with the real battle for the crown... :wink:

[mindgam3]

on the other hand i agree 110% - when a GT with a NS setup will show up - no other car with whatever setup could touch that time by at least 6-10 seconds...
...and are both road cars ;)

lol, don´t think that i have "forgotten" about those .... "cars" .... that said u might see that i don´t have any respect for such cars claiming the fastest NS lap, they have nothing in common with cars like whatever class, GT3-CSL-F430 class or now the Zonda S-GT-Enzo class...

it´s nice to have such rides like Donky D8 RS, Radicals, ... but they have nothing to do with the real battle for the crown... :wink:

Thats a matter of opinion, they are still production road cars ;)

[Chingachgook]

Great news !

Imho Ferrari test too much the cars in Fiorano circuit, that in fact is pretty flat without much bumps ... and so the 575m was known for kissing the road surface in the REAL WORLD. I hope in the future Ferrari will test the cars in the Nordschleife ... if a car performs well in the old 'Ring ... all the real world road are good imho

[nejcdolinsek]

^^
I agree. Although the Enzo will probably be slower around the Nordschleffe than the CGT, I'm willing to bet the Enzo will beat it around Hockenheim :D

[mindgam3]

on the other hand i agree 110% - when a GT with a NS setup will show up - no other car with whatever setup could touch that time by at least 6-10 seconds...
...and are both road cars ;)

lol, don´t think that i have "forgotten" about those .... "cars" .... that said u might see that i don´t have any respect for such cars claiming the fastest NS lap, they have nothing in common with cars like whatever class, GT3-CSL-F430 class or now the Zonda S-GT-Enzo class...

it´s nice to have such rides like Donky D8 RS, Radicals, ... but they have nothing to do with the real battle for the crown... :wink:

Completely agree... The Donkervoort and the Radical times are impressive... but they're not "real" cars, so at the end, they're out of the battle IMO.



What would you class as a "real" car then :P

Of course they're proper cars, just in a different class from supercars or GT's etc.... an altogether generally more faster class than the previously mentioned ;)

At the end of the day lap times are just numbers and the difference between the Enzo and CGT on any track is going to minimal... its not the lap times that count - more the experience ;)

[nthfinity]

sorry to bump the topic, but is there any updates to this st-anger?
we've since heard about SA testing the Koenigsegg CCR in 7:34, and roumors of the Pagani Zonda F (clubsport?) running a 7:30

[gucom]

man u had me goin crazy, i was like YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAH finally they've got a time!!! :D ...and then i read ur post :| :P

[astonmartinandy]

Yeah I would love to finally hear what time the Enzo could set around NS. I just still don't understand why one Enzo owner doesn't donate their car to find out for themselves! (For the record I would happily donate my services as test driver 8) )

[chest3r]

man u had me goin crazy, i was like YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAH finally they've got a time!!! :D ...and then i read ur post :| :P

Exaclty like me. When I saw the title I thought: How could I missed this ? :lol:

Maybe TG could take an Enzo to the Ring and let Sabine drive it...... :P At least we could have an idea about the laptime.

[nthfinity]

Yeah I would love to finally hear what time the Enzo could set around NS. I just still don't understand why one Enzo owner doesn't donate their car to find out for themselves!

read the beginning of the thread... the Enzo was not set up at all for NS, and would need to be set up specifically for NS, as it bottomed out quite a bit when Porsche barrowed an Enzo.

sorry to get peoples hopes up, i just was wondering if there was any updated info

[bmagni]

no time !?!?!?!
bah !!!

[st-anger]

sorry to bump the topic, but is there any updates to this st-anger?
we've since heard about SA testing the Koenigsegg CCR in 7:34, and roumors of the Pagani Zonda F (clubsport?) running a 7:30

... well, times and all that is correct, i think u´ve all seen the official statement (http://www.koenigsegg.com/news/articles.asp?news=98&page=&type=news) of Koenigsegg and it´s probably true that the CCR will be faster when conditions´ll be a bit warmer next year, BUT - and i won´t comment on that in detail but it simply has to be said - Ch.Koenigsegg should better make his car reliable than faster, i think i needn´t say more... :roll:

...about the Enzo ... ??? .... neverending story i´m afraid, many sources indicated a test in fall but .........well....nothing.... :roll: :roll: :roll:

..will let u guys know asap when something´s on the way... :wink:

[yg60m]

... well, times and all that is correct, i think u´ve all seen the official statement of Koenigsegg and it´s probably true that the CCR will be faster when conditions´ll be a bit warmer next year, BUT - and i won´t comment on that in detail but it simply has to be said - Ch.Koenigsegg should better make his car reliable than faster, i think i needn´t say more...


And it seems that Tiff Needell has the same opinion :P :wink:

[nthfinity]

thanks st-a :)
about the Koenigsegg, i dont think any more has to be said, really :lol: every time it makes an appearance on TV, they seem to be breaking... so i can only imagine how often it is in real life.

i also have a question about the lap reacord breaking: you said that the Enzo would need specific suspension geometries adjusted quite a bit for a good lap around NS... and Koenigsegg readily admits that they changed their suspension for it... would thier changes have been so severe that the car would no longer be able to be driven on the street? if the CGT recieved NS specific settings, it would be in the same arena, but 7-10 seconds faster then it already is?

[st-anger]

thanks st-a :)
about the Koenigsegg, i dont think any more has to be said, really :lol: every time it makes an appearance on TV, they seem to be breaking... so i can only imagine how often it is in real life.

i also have a question about the lap reacord breaking: you said that the Enzo would need specific suspension geometries adjusted quite a bit for a good lap around NS... and Koenigsegg readily admits that they changed their suspension for it... would thier changes have been so severe that the car would no longer be able to be driven on the street? if the CGT recieved NS specific settings, it would be in the same arena, but 7-10 seconds faster then it already is?

...well, of course overall setup would suffer a bit but in general a too "race car like" setup is unwanted on NS due to the very bumpy layout, so e.g. a too stiff race suspension is probably quite some seconds slower than a street setup, but of course u can work out a perfect NS setup and be sure Porsche did their homework on the GT, so don´t think that the current setup is the only one around ... :wink:
with optimal tires in combination with that special suspension i KNOW that the GT would be at least 10sec faster :wink: but PAG placed the GT as supercar for everyday and not a pure racing machine - some ( incl. myself ) may say: "unfortunately..."

Yann, what about your comment on TN, what did he say ??? can u give me the link to that interview or something like that, would love to know the exact words from him, thx in advance... :)

[nthfinity]

thanks st-a :)
about the Koenigsegg, i dont think any more has to be said, really :lol: every time it makes an appearance on TV, they seem to be breaking... so i can only imagine how often it is in real life.

i also have a question about the lap reacord breaking: you said that the Enzo would need specific suspension geometries adjusted quite a bit for a good lap around NS... and Koenigsegg readily admits that they changed their suspension for it... would thier changes have been so severe that the car would no longer be able to be driven on the street? if the CGT recieved NS specific settings, it would be in the same arena, but 7-10 seconds faster then it already is?

...well, of course overall setup would suffer a bit but in general a too "race car like" setup is unwanted on NS due to the very bumpy layout, so e.g. a too stiff race suspension is probably quite some seconds slower than a street setup, but of course u can work out a perfect NS setup and be sure Porsche did their homework on the GT, so don´t think that the current setup is the only one around ... :wink:
with optimal tires in combination with that special suspension i KNOW that the GT would be at least 10sec faster :wink: but PAG placed the GT as supercar for everyday and not a pure racing machine - some ( incl. myself ) may say: "unfortunately..."

Yann, what about your comment on TN, what did he say ??? can u give me the link to that interview or something like that, would love to know the exact words from him, thx in advance... :)
http://www.jabbasworld.net/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1280
theres the link with Tiff's comments (just from this weeks episode)
thanks for the quick reply :)
that special NS setup on the GT; does PAG give that info to private owners on request?
Michelin makes the only tire approved for the Carerra GT. They feature a soft compound rubber on the outer one third of the tread. It is suggested by Porsche that these tires need replacement every 15000 miles.
was there another compound PAG was working with michelin during the development... this suggests that there is only one choice tire?

[st-anger]

thanks st-a :)
about the Koenigsegg, i dont think any more has to be said, really :lol: every time it makes an appearance on TV, they seem to be breaking... so i can only imagine how often it is in real life.

i also have a question about the lap reacord breaking: you said that the Enzo would need specific suspension geometries adjusted quite a bit for a good lap around NS... and Koenigsegg readily admits that they changed their suspension for it... would thier changes have been so severe that the car would no longer be able to be driven on the street? if the CGT recieved NS specific settings, it would be in the same arena, but 7-10 seconds faster then it already is?

...well, of course overall setup would suffer a bit but in general a too "race car like" setup is unwanted on NS due to the very bumpy layout, so e.g. a too stiff race suspension is probably quite some seconds slower than a street setup, but of course u can work out a perfect NS setup and be sure Porsche did their homework on the GT, so don´t think that the current setup is the only one around ... :wink:
with optimal tires in combination with that special suspension i KNOW that the GT would be at least 10sec faster :wink: but PAG placed the GT as supercar for everyday and not a pure racing machine - some ( incl. myself ) may say: "unfortunately..."

Yann, what about your comment on TN, what did he say ??? can u give me the link to that interview or something like that, would love to know the exact words from him, thx in advance... :)
http://www.jabbasworld.net/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1280
theres the link with Tiff's comments (just from this weeks episode)
thanks for the quick reply :)
that special NS setup on the GT; does PAG give that info to private owners on request?
Michelin makes the only tire approved for the Carerra GT. They feature a soft compound rubber on the outer one third of the tread. It is suggested by Porsche that these tires need replacement every 15000 miles.
was there another compound PAG was working with michelin during the development... this suggests that there is only one choice tire?

thx for the link, will dl it later...

u have PM on the GT question as we´re not in the right Area here :wink:

of course there were many many compounds and other brands involved in testing and selecting process but the Michelins with "N0" spec were the best overall ( mainly wet- ) tire...