Renault Espace vs Saab 9-5 vs Volvo S80 vs Peugeot 607

[1zippo1]

I wanted to ask your oppinion about these cars because my dad is looking for a new company car. Plz don't suggest things like a BMW 5 or Mercedes E. I know they're nice but they don't fit the budget.

We still have to go and visit the dealers but this is what came out after I did a comparison based on the max price and the available room in the car.

Basically my dad needs a car to make some 45.000km/year, that has a big boot to carry all the equipement and still has room for 5 fairly tall adults and last but not least because it's a leasing car, it has to be a diesel!

Now yes I know a monovolume car like the Espace is probably best suited for all of this but to be honest I prefer a sedan. And I have a little say in this so :)

I'll go through the 4 cars first and then sum up the others that didn't make it.

This is my dad's current car, a Opel Omega 2.2DTi 120hp
http://rentacar-europe.com/hungary/omega.jpg


The Renault Espace 2.2dci 150hp:
http://autobzor.com/photo/renault_espace_1.jpg

My dad really likes this car because my uncle has one and he took it for a testdrive. Now I can see his point.
For: Room inside, good engine, good chassis, safest car on the market
Against: I don't like the way you sit in the back with the floor of the car just 20cm beneath the seat...


About teh next 3 cars I can't be so specific because I don't know that much about them as I do about the Espace.


Volvo S80 2.4D 130hp or 2.5 163hp:
http://www.williams-adams.co.nz/volvo-section/images/new-volvo-models/S80.jpg

For: reliable, good ride



Saab 9-5 2.2 120hp or 3.0 177hp:
http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/09/saab9502_02.jpg

For: probably a lot of discount because it's an older model, 3.0 V6 177hp would be very nice :lol:
Against: older model => chassis...???



Peugeot 607 2.2 136hp:
http://www.peugeot-fleet.de/kunden_modelle/allgemein/images/grossansicht/607_limousine.jpg

For & Against: Mediocre quality for a mediocre pricetag I think



Others that I doubt are suited:
Too expensive: BMW 525d, Audi A6 Avant, Merc E

Probably too small in the back: Alfa 166, Ford mondeo, Mazda 6, Toyota Avensis

Too ugly: Citroen C5, Lancia Thesis, Nissan Primera

Other probs: Audi A6 is perfect except for the tiny boot entrance wich makes it impossible to load my dads stuff...

Anyway, I'm just curious about what you guys think.

[mindgam3]

To be honest, 5 adults in any sedan is going to be a tight squeeze....

For what you want, renault espace everytime, 6 or 7 seats which can have different configurations and you can take them out if u need any more equipment in.... not too slow either ;)

[ferrarif1fan89]

^^^What he said. also, when the hell are they replacing the 9-5? that thing is ancient.

[TT]

As I said many times for personal experience (mom and uncle's cars), I'd strongly suggest to choose anything but not the Espace!

[Kiran]

As I said many times for personal experience (mom and uncle's cars), I'd strongly suggest to choose anything but not the Espace!

Aha, interesting... but may I ask why exactly?

The Espace is the most "common sense" choice so... I'm guessing you're talking about reliability problems.

EDIT: this is 1zippo1. I use this account when I don't have the time to check all the posts

[Iwan]

well, i'm also an ESPACE driver and so far no problem except for the automatic
tire pressure system, but i assume this has to do with the enormous temparature
balance and the air which expands/tightens...well it's fixed after a tiny airshock 8)

anyway....you should definetely go for a VAN, but keep in mind, there are also
other good models on the market....

Ford Galaxy, VW Sharan, Opel Zafira, Fiat Ulysse, Peugeot 807, Citroen C8 etc.
to name some.....but when it comes to a state of the art 'model' then - sorry to
say - the Espace is on top of the range (safety, design, experience, style, quality,
variation etc.) and don't forget the Espace used to be the first VAN and they have
almost 20 years experience in this business......

this weekend we had visitors here, a family with 2 babies. well, with the espace
it wasn't a big deal to go for a ride (4 adults & 4 babies) including two buggies
and all the stuff which little kids tend to carry.....and...i almost felt like
a schoolbusdriver......

cheers,
iwan

[Kiran]

Thx for all the replies guys!!!


It's very nice to hear from an Espace driver. And yes as you pointed out there are others but I think if it's going to be one of these it's going to be a Espace because it is by far and away the best.


I just heard on the radio that the Renault group had a historic max profit this year. So all that safe cars shit must have been well for their sells.

[Wutputt]

Well if carrying 5 tall adults really is a big issue, I would say the Espace is the way to go. But if the car has to carry 5 adults from time to time but not that many, maybe a sedan is more interesting.

I've driven all three sedan contenders: the MY01 S80 (pre facelift model), the MY02 9-5, and the MY00 607. All with petrol engines, but I've experience with Volvo's 2.4D and the GM (Saabs) 2.2 TiD.

As for the 607, I've only driven it for about half an hour. And we've only tested it with 4 adults in the car. So I can't tell you that much. The boot is really big, it has a nice ride: comfortable but no dull handling. Interior build quality is mediocre (it also changes it bit from car to car) and sometimes reliability can be an issue (it also depends from car to car).



And now for the Volvo S80 and Saab 9-5. We own a Saab 9-5 and before purchasing it we did some extended testing with the 9-5 and the S80 (pre facelift model). So I do know quite a lot about those two cars.

Both are big cars with a big boot. We tested both driving with 5 adults in the car. The person sitting in the middle in the back seat of course has not that many comfort (an Espace will be better for this), but it won't give any hernia issues :D We concluded the back seat of the 9-5 was a tiny bit more comfortable than in the S80. But both Saab and Volvo had really good (front) seats, certainly of you opt for the sport seats. We preferred the sport seats of the Saab above the ones of the Volvo, but only with a really small margin.

Build quality of the Volvo is better than the Saab. The used plastics are better quality and everything fits more neatly into each other. I also think the Volvo is a bit more reliable (but I can't really be sure about that).

Ride and handling. The standard S80 suspension is really set for comfort. The problem is the handling is a bit vague and dull. We were looking for a car with comfort but also some crispy handling. We actually have never tested a 9-5 in standard setup, we've only driven the Vector and Aero versions, which are a bit lowered and harder damped. We did like them because of the nice mix between comfort and some more dynamic handling (but don't expect handling like a sportscar or a M5). The standard S80 setup has more comfort, but compared with the S80 with 'sport' chassis (the 4C chassis didn’t existed in those days), the 9-5 Vector and Aero are better. We thought that they gave us just a bit more comfort (maybe other persons think it's the other way around) and the handling is far better. Even with the 'sport' chassis the S80 had troubles coping with loads of power and torque (we tested the T6, the less powerful versions prolly won't have those problems). So that's why we liked the 9-5's ride and handling over the S80's. But bare in mind we were judging the sportier chassis setups and not the standard ones.

The engines. I would strongly suggest not to opt for the 2.2 TiD. It really is an old diesel engine: it makes a lot of noise and vibrates quite a lot. Some sound proofing can help but the main problem still exists. As for the Volvo I would suggest the D5 over the 2.4D. Those extra horsies just make driving it a lot more fun and relaxing.


I hope this info helped a bit. If you have further questions just ask.

[TransAm]

I'd go for the 9-5. Have you considered the 9-5 Wagon? It probably has nearly as much cargo space as the espace (unless you take the seats out of the espace, of course).

I'd go for the V6 diesel. Should be as quick as an E320TD (old shape) as the power and torque outputs are similar. I remember JC testing that mercedes when it came out (1997 maybe) and he said it was well quick.

Only problem with the S80 is that it is a bit of a hulk of a car (doesnt handle very well) and only comes as a sedan.

I am a bit biased however being a 9-3 owner.

[TT]

As I said many times for personal experience (mom and uncle's cars), I'd strongly suggest to choose anything but not the Espace!

Aha, interesting... but may I ask why exactly?

The Espace is the most "common sense" choice so... I'm guessing you're talking about reliability problems.

EDIT: this is 1zippo1. I use this account when I don't have the time to check all the posts

Yes, my mom's Grand Espace (2.2 diesel) went back to the workshop 5 times.. first for a problem with the doors lock closing and opening randomly.. then for a problem with the engine, turning off randomly again.. usually on the higway. They were never able to fix it, so they kept it and ordered a new car for my mom. The new one arrived and so far it went back another 5 or 6 times.. now it is the clutch pedal. when you press it, sometimes it simply stays buried down and you need to take it up again yourself with the foot..
the list could go on :D

[jon_s]

As much as I love the 95, considering the fact that you have to take 5 people about, one person is going to have an unconfortable ride. The rear middle seat (in the estate) is not confortable at all! I will not go for more than a 20min trip on that seat if we go out in the Aero.

However, the Aero is a swift and comfortable car (except that seat!). It can certainly take the miles. Ours is currently on 80,000 miles! I don't know how quick it would be with only 120hp though, it is a heavy car!

All things considered I would go for the Espace

[Sm@ck]

VW Passat?

New one is out in 4 months. Link (http://showrooms.volkswagen.de/vwcms_publish/vwcms/master_public/showrooms/de/passat/der_neue_passat.frameset_outer.html)

or get a the current model with some great options for a bargain price.

don't forget VW diesels are top notch. ;)

Edit: reduced the amount of exclamation marks. :)

[TransAm]

New passat looks pretty 'schon' IMHO. You bloody german speakers and all your exclamation marks however are a different matter. This board is becoming like a holiday in Austria. '!'s everywhere you look lol :lol: 8) I half expect to be given out random 'Tips'

Rant over. I am just joking BTW - Sorry !!!

[Fleischmann]

You have the 607 on the list...CROSS it out!! My friends dad owns one...and he claims that it spends more time in the service then in his garage or driving it. I'd certainly go for the SAAB, it's very reliable, Swedish quality. My other friends dad owns one of these BTW...he has the 2.2 litre engine and he claims it's quite enough for the car, it doesn't lurch around, is pretty quiet yet dynamic at the same time and has a nicely sorted chassis. Unfortuantelly all the cars on the list are FWD, but the choice has to be practical and not neccessarily fun.

[Kiran]

First of all: thx everyone for the replies! I never expected so many but it's really nice to hear people's oppinion.

To sum it up, I counted the positive & negative votes for each car:
Espace : For 4 / Against 1
Saag 9-5 : For 4 / Against 1
Volvo S80 : For 2 / Against 1
Peugeot : For 1 / Against 1

So basically you guys are saying go for the Saab or the Espace.
The Saab is the sportiest of the three sedans and the Espace is a big & good peoplecarrier.

Well if carrying 5 tall adults really is a big issue, I would say the Espace is the way to go. But if the car has to carry 5 adults from time to time but not that many, maybe a sedan is more interesting.


Yep, that's basically it. We only use the car about once in 2 weeks for 5 people, when we go and visit some family for instance. And usually the trips aren't very long (max one hour). But we did go to Italy this summer with 5 people in the Opel Omega and that wasn't really comfortable because the backbench is sized for 2 people.

@Wutputt: thx for the comparison! It's nice to hear it from someone who knows all the cars!!

@TT: Thx for the information, those are really serious problems and will be taken into account. But the fact is, it's allways a bit of luck with cars. And usually the first cars that come out have a few small problems. These are far from small off course.

BTW, if we would go for the Saab 9-5, I will try and convince my dad for the 3.0 V6. The 2.2 is exactly the same engine that he currently has in his Omega (GM engine). I wouldn't say it's bad, but that's about it. It's enough to get you along at a fluent pace but nothing more. The 2.5 BMW engine he had before was older but a lot better. With the 3.0 the base price will be quite high but I think we will get a big discount because of the age of the car.

About the other suggestions:
-VW Touran: In Belgium the Touran is quite a lot cheaper then the rest of the cars, even a full spec one would be quite a bit below the budget... And to be honest I don't like the look if it.
- VW Passat: We testdrove that one when my dad was looking for a car last time. It was with the 1.9TDI 130hp engine, which is really strong. The problem is that the headroom in the back isn't so good.
Maybe the next Passat will do better... but 4 months is a bit long I think. The waiting list on new models is probably longer too.

Again : thx for the replies!!

[23790554]

go for the S80, its the best from Volvo

[jakaracman]

Don't forget Opel Signum ... With the big diesel engine ...

[Kiran]

Don't forget Opel Signum ... With the big diesel engine ...

The Signum is a real 4 seater, it has 2 seats in the back...
And it's kinda ugly :?

The Vel Satis 2.2 would also be an option if it wasn't so ugly

[jon_s]

Have a look at the Saab 95 Aero too :wink:

[1zippo1]

Well a Saab 9-5 Aero would be very cool of course but it needs to be a diesel because the leasing company only accepts those AND the Aero is a bit above the budget. A 9-5 in Vector edition is allready quite sporty they say.


What also could be an option however is a Volvo V70...

But I like the S80 more and the price is the same.

[jon_s]

Ahh, well in that case stick with the V6 lol

[TransAm]

http://www.lundsaab.com/safety.htm

This webpage contains some interesting information - why Saabs have the key in the centre console and other innovations.

Anyway, you might be specifically interested in the following from the page:

"...The American National Highway Traffic Safety Administration(NHTSA) recently released their New Car Assessment Program (NCAP) crash test results for 2003. In this test, the Saab 9-5 Sedan received the highest possible rating, five stars, for the driver and front seat passenger in the frontal impact crash test. The NCAP reports crash test results in a range of one to five stars, with a five star rating for the top level of safety performance in the test..."

[1zippo1]

An update about my fathers search for a new car:

Not last weekend but the one before, we went to visit Renault, Saab & Volvo. We testdrove a Saab 9-5 3.0 V6 CDTi 177hp. But to be honest I wasn't impressed, the engine responed very slowly to throttle imput. I loved the interior of the Volvo S80 however, the seats are amazing. They just fit you perfectly, it's like they're especially made for you and the rest of the interior is also very very clean & ergonomical. I disliked the 9-5's interior, it looks out dated even in the highest version.

Then the Espace, which is very roomy but the driver seat sucks. It's one of the worst. My moms Yaris has a similar seat... And that for a car which costs more then 3 times the price of a Yaris.

Last weekend we had a testdrive in the S80 2.4D 130hp. The ride & comfort of the Volvo is superb. It absorbs everything with ease but doesn't roll too much in the corners. The 2.4D is also a very slow reacting engine. The D5 is probably better but the 2.4D kinda set my dad off, pitty!

The testdrive with the Espace was a real letdown. We had an appointment but had to wait 30 min extra. The testdrive took 7 minutes... that's bullshit IMO. The people from Volvo just gave my dad the keys and said he can drive as long as he wanted. The people from Renault were really sceptical about the test drive and gave us a wrong price when my dad asked about it.

Next weekend we have a testdrive planned with a Skoda Superb 1.9TDi 130hp & the weekend after it we have an Audi A6 2.0TDi for a weekend. I hope it's an S-line because I think it really enhances the look of the car! And next weekend we're also going to the launch of the new VW Passat.

If my dad takes a Superb or a new Passat he can go for a full-option car and have lots of cool features, but with an A6 he can only get a few options...

I still think he wants an Espace, he's just put of by the salespeople and the terrible seats. But I see his point, it's nice to have a good view on the road & the trunk is also really easy to use. He has to load and unload lots of times a day so...

We'll see what happens, but for me it's a very interesting time!!! I love looking for a new car!

[Gnome]

If you want to buy a 9-5 with a diesel engine you should wait a while. The 2.2 is old, and should be retired. It has been replaced in the 9-3, but for some reason the new engine isn't available in the 9-5. The new engine is more economical and runs cleaner. It's a 1.9 that has 150 hp, and 150 hp is a lot of grunt when it comes from a diesel engine!

[jon_s]

I sadly have to agree, the interior is looking dated now :cry: One of the main reasons why the 9-5 Aero is going reasonably soon :(

[1zippo1]

Here's the next update. Partly because I like telling about it, partly because I like to heare what you guys think about it.

OVERVIEW

Not a option anymore:
- Renault Espace 2.2Dci (too large for our garage)
- Audi A6 (really bad middle back seat)
- Volvo S80 (trunk opening too small for my dads ecquipement)
- Peugeot 607 (really low trunk)

Still an option:
- Saab 9-5 2.2 120hp
- Skoda Superb 1.9TDi 130hp
- VW Passat 2.0 TDi 140hp
- Honda Accord (Tourer) 2.2 140hp

We have the Audi A6 2.0Tdi 140hp for a testweekend. We got it on friday evening and will return it tomorrow. I've taken some pics of it, but they're currently on another pc. I'll surely post them later!! IMO the new Audi A6 2.0TDi is a sublime car!! I really really love it. It's really nice to drive & I allways thought of it as a very good looking car, better then anything in it's class. With the optional S-Line pack it's even nicer. That 2.0TDi is a real masterpiece too IMO. I'm not used to a short gas pedal like in the A6 so on several occasions I gave it a lot more throttle then I intended too. The engine has more then enough grunt to overtake and spins really nice. The front seats are great, the ride is very good: not too soft, not too hard. The interior is classy, a bit dark but I like that! My only complaints are the fact that you feel the vibration from the engine through the pedals and the fact that the middle seat in the back is useless. For that reason my dad just can't take an A6 and that's a real shame!!! :( In the middle of the back seat there's a arm rest with a plastic box in it. That box makes the seat real hard.

The Espace allways was a good option but the fact is that it's too large for our garage...

Tomorrow we'll go and return the A6. My sister and my mom are coming along too see how much space there's in the new VW Passat. But I fear it's rather small compared to the A6...

I wonder how big the Accord is in the back, I just can't find any data on the room on elbow level.

IMO the Skoda Superb makes the best option. My dad can take a full option one for his budget!!

Anyway we'll see what happens... The testweekend with the A6 was a real joy![/b]

[1zippo1]

Here are the pics I took and promised to upload.
I've put the first one on my desktop.

The green plates are the garage plates.

Personally I like the look of the car very much, even without the S-Line pack. And that grey-blew color suits it really well IMO.

http://img35.exs.cx/img35/7782/pic00093am.th.jpg (http://img35.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img35&image=pic00093am.jpg) http://img35.exs.cx/img35/2972/pic00175um.th.jpg (http://img35.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img35&image=pic00175um.jpg) http://img18.exs.cx/img18/8998/pic00155rk.th.jpg (http://img18.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img18&image=pic00155rk.jpg) http://img35.exs.cx/img35/8350/pic00149co.th.jpg (http://img35.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img35&image=pic00149co.jpg)

http://img35.exs.cx/img35/1614/pic00187mz.th.jpg (http://img35.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img35&image=pic00187mz.jpg) http://img195.exs.cx/img195/8383/pic00061jw.th.jpg (http://img195.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img195&image=pic00061jw.jpg) http://img195.exs.cx/img195/2656/pic00130rc.th.jpg (http://img195.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img195&image=pic00130rc.jpg)

And the last picture, which Imageshack wouldn't accept:
http://users.pandora.be/p997s/PIC_0016.JPG

[1zippo1]

the espace is too large for your garage? its 4,26cm
But then you can forget the superb(4,80m) the accord ((4,67)and the passat (4,77m) too.

We also have such a fucking problem we have a double garage but only my sisters car fits :D (skoda fabia).

The Espace is too large, meaning that it's too width to get trough the garage without pulling in the electric mirrors. But my dad sometimes has to hurry in case of an emergency so he'll have no time to cautiously manoeuver out of the garage... Not to mention the fact that my sister will have a lot of difficulties getting the car out unscratched at all :P