Mercedes and McLaren on the rocks - CAR magazine Feb issue

[Sir_GT]

Yep, it's true. I'm going to post the entire article when I find time, but basically it means that the 2 supercars planned after the SLR are canned. No more P7 and P8 (or was it P8 and P9?), in which one of them was supposedly a mid-engined Murcielago chaser. The internal problems are even stretching beyond the production cars, and are leaking over the F1 agreements. Only difference is tha Mercedes and McLaren's contracts are etched in stone until 2006. 2007 and beyond is a different matter, since apparently Mercedes is favouring the breakaway "GPWC" that is looming over F1's horizon, whilst Ron Dennis and co. seem to be leaning towards F1.

Apparently, one of the reasons for the problems are the stinging press reports regarding the SLR MacMerc. Seems like the McLaren boys were not happy with it being "a little too Mercedes, and not enough McLaren"

[mv]

Lets hope Mclaren is able to develop and produce cars on its own...It would be pretty irritating if this meant we're not bound to see any supercars with Mclaren badge in the future.

[Sir_GT]

Lets hope Mclaren is able to develop and produce cars on its own...It would be pretty irritating if this meant we're not bound to see any supercars with Mclaren badge in the future.

The problem is somewhat related to that apparently. Mercedes wanted to build a second supercar and/or a sequel to the SLR using the SLR platform, in order for the investment to make a decent return. McLaren opposed the idea because they felt that the SLR was already substandard in the first place.

[findleybeast]

does this mean a possibe future partnership of McLaren and BMW? Lets hope so! As for the SLR, yeah it was pretty much super buff SL with McLaren engineering thrown in. Still though, it doesn't get nearly as much respect as it deserves

[jon_s]

"a little too Mercedes, and not enough McLaren"

My thoughts exactly!

[ikon2003]

Lets hope Mclaren is able to develop and produce cars on its own...It would be pretty irritating if this meant we're not bound to see any supercars with Mclaren badge in the future.

well, that would be nice. get ride of the Star. And yes, going back to the Propeller would be nice (imagine a nice, highly tuned V12 version of bimmer's current v10 in the M5...mmm)

Sux some, cuz they invested all that mulah in the new factory (that looks like an art museum, btw). I was kinda looking forward to a mid engined supercar.

Mercedes tanking sales and declining reputation in quality over the past few yrs hasn't helped i'm sure.

[mv]

I was kinda looking forward to a mid engined supercar.


Me too...it was said to literally decimate all the competitors

[DeMoN]

To hell with mclaren mercedes. Let them join BMW and make another Supercar.

[ikon2003]

^it's such an appealing idea, esp. considering all the lore that still exists over the F1 and how it's survived the times in spite of so many other supercars coming into the market. too bad BMW and Williams seem to be going steady w/ each other.

[CSedl87]

To hell with mclaren mercedes. Let them join BMW and make another Supercar. But how would that affect the BMW/Williams deal now? I'm sure thats a bit of a factor in the long run....

[nthfinity]

To hell with mclaren mercedes. Let them join BMW and make another Supercar. But how would that affect the BMW/Williams deal now? I'm sure thats a bit of a factor in the long run....
partnership in F1 doesnt cross from track to road, perhaps??

[blah]

Well how long do you think BMW will stay with williams if williams cant win?

[CSedl87]

Well how long do you think BMW will stay with williams if williams cant win?
Didn't they just extend their partnership with Williams? I hope so much that BMW will get together with McLaren both on road, and on the track. That would make me cream my pants if they joined up.

[Sir_GT]

To hell with mclaren mercedes. Let them join BMW and make another Supercar. But how would that affect the BMW/Williams deal now? I'm sure thats a bit of a factor in the long run....

Williams can file for conflict of interest on BMW's part because apparently, (and this is sourced from a magazine's interview of William's technical director) BMW's R&D team are a single unit. There is actually no separation between the F1 R&D team, and the road car R&D team. The Williams technical director (IIRC, it was Patrick Head... or I think it was even Frank himself) said that at first they were suspicious as to why BMW's engineers wanted to conduct aerodynamic testing in the Williams wind tunnel - Williams thought that BMW was using it as R&D in order to set up a single F1 team, a la Ferrari. Now they don't mind it so much anymore, since BMW have proven to be committed to the partnership.

Which is why a partnership with McLaren whilst the one with Williams is existing is pretty much impossible.

[mindgam3]

Merecedes own 40% of mclaren (TAG and Ron Dennis make up the other 60%) so merecedes has an overwhelming opinion on everything mclaren does.....

My opinion is that they shouldnt have joined forces in the first place.....

Bearing in mind, Ilmor produce the F1 engines, (merecedes just owns and brands them) and have only made the SLR a worse car than it shoul have been, i dont see how mercedes actually help McLaren other than providing a bit of money which mclaren are hardly short of anyway....

[Sir_GT]

IIRC, Ilmore produces the parts that Mercedes and McLaren use to build the F1 cars, but does not actually build the engines or the cars themselves.

[DeMoN]

Man it would be awesome that after so many years, the car to beat the McLaren F1 would be another McLaren BMW

[Sir_GT]

i told you guys this months ago, in my "insider information" post ;)

Well, then you've just got the confirmation you might have needed. :)

[ikon2003]

Merecedes own 40% of mclaren (TAG and Ron Dennis make up the other 60%) so merecedes has an overwhelming opinion on everything mclaren does.....

My opinion is that they shouldnt have joined forces in the first place.....

Bearing in mind, Ilmor produce the F1 engines, (merecedes just owns and brands them) and have only made the SLR a worse car than it shoul have been, i dont see how mercedes actually help McLaren other than providing a bit of money which mclaren are hardly short of anyway....

Nice info - first time i've heard it.

Any idea what the shareholders looked like when the F1 came out?

[findleybeast]

I think now would actually be a very opportune time for McLaren to split from Mercedes. After the run of SLRs is finished, McLaren is left with a state-of-the-art factory at its disposal and no cars to produce. If they sever ties with Mercedes they could look into producing their own bespoke supercar and foster new relationships with BMW and the like...

[mindgam3]

IIRC, Ilmore produces the parts that Mercedes and McLaren use to build the F1 cars, but does not actually build the engines or the cars themselves.

Nope, Ilmor produce the actual engines.

Mercedes own Ilmor and the engines are branded Mercedes-Ilmor but Ilmor are the actual company that build the engines

[mindgam3]

Merecedes own 40% of mclaren (TAG and Ron Dennis make up the other 60%) so merecedes has an overwhelming opinion on everything mclaren does.....

My opinion is that they shouldnt have joined forces in the first place.....

Bearing in mind, Ilmor produce the F1 engines, (merecedes just owns and brands them) and have only made the SLR a worse car than it shoul have been, i dont see how mercedes actually help McLaren other than providing a bit of money which mclaren are hardly short of anyway....

Nice info - first time i've heard it.

Any idea what the shareholders looked like when the F1 came out?

Not sure, i'm sure mercedes didnt have a share back then, but TAG may have done....

[Bilal786]

I don't understand. How stupid does one have to be? Why do BMW fans think they made the F1 with Mclaren?

HONDA was originally chosen to power the F1. It was just by chance, that they were unable to, and BMW had a 6.0 V12, tuned to produce 627hp. Murray originally wanted 550hp, but the engine came out heavier than expected but with 627hp.

If Mclaren and Merc split, you really think Mercedes will leave their 200mil factory to Mclaren? Where is Mclaren going to get the funding to build its own car? The F1 was a legendary car but there will never be anbother pure car. financially, it was a flop, and now with severed Merc contacts, the Mac boys are going to use a factory they don't own with money they don't have to build an F1 successor? Apparently, BMW will help them?

BMW ONLY supplied the engine, they didn't make the car. AMG can easily supply an engine to Mclaren if and when they produce another car. They already do so to Laraki and Pagani.

If Mac and Merc split, the former will come off worse. Mercedes just wanted the Mclaren brand name and make it a satellite within the DCX empire like AMG/Maybach/Smart. As far as the notion of Mac making a car with BMW, IMO it is near impossible and ludicrous without a proper BMW investment, unlikely anytime soon.

[mindgam3]

If Mclaren and Merc split, you really think Mercedes will leave their 200mil factory to Mclaren? Where is Mclaren going to get the funding to build its own car? The F1 was a legendary car but there will never be anbother pure car. financially, it was a flop, and now with severed Merc contacts, the Mac boys are going to use a factory they don't own with money they don't have to build an F1 successor? Apparently, BMW will help them?

BMW ONLY supplied the engine, they didn't make the car. AMG can easily supply an engine to Mclaren if and when they produce another car. They already do so to Laraki and Pagani.

If Mac and Merc split, the former will come off worse. Mercedes just wanted the Mclaren brand name and make it a satellite within the DCX empire like AMG/Maybach/Smart. As far as the notion of Mac making a car with BMW, IMO it is near impossible and ludicrous without a proper BMW investment, unlikely anytime soon.

Firstly, it's not mercedes factory, its mclarens.....

Mclaren were financially stable before mercedes aquired 40% and would still be stable if merc sold there share....

Merc only really has a say in Mclaren cars, there are 5 other subsidaries of mclaren group that all make money.

The mclaren HQ houses all of these subsidaries, not just the SLR production line.

Mclaren could have used a different engine supplier to make the SLR. Not many other companies have the designers, or composite manufacuring facilities that mclaren have....

True, if they split, mclaren would come off worse, but they would easily survive. But its very unlikely in the first place as merc has such a big share and they wouldnt want to loose mclaren, if they did, they wouldnt be able to manufacture a decent rival supercar.

[findleybeast]

I think people like BMW's relationship with McLaren so much because, even though they only provided the engine, the engine was truly a masterpiece. It was good timing on McLaren's part to request an engine of course since BMW had already started developing a V12 for an M8 that never got released.

I think people just want to see the partnership that spawned the iconic F1 be reforged to produce another supercar. Plus, even McLaren has said it would rather work with BMW, but Mercedes was a financial decision

[mindgam3]

I think BMW has a car building philosophy much more similar to mclarens than mercedes does to mclaren too

[Sir_GT]

I don't understand. How stupid does one have to be? Why do BMW fans think they made the F1 with Mclaren?

Maybe its because Gordon Murray himself said that BMW were better engine builders? :)

Besides, as mindgam3 clearyly pointed out, McLaren's HQ here in Woking (which isn't far from me) has several subsidiaries. One of which, is the carbon composite manufacturing one. McLaren are one of the best when it comes to performance composites, so they will always have business anyway.

mindgam3: Cheers for pointing that out to me. I was under the impression that Mercedes had only recently purchased Ilmore, which is why I thought that Ilmore were merely the parts supplier.

[mindgam3]

Indeed, mclaren have provided various composite components for space probes etc, that alon could keep them running. As with all F1 teams, mclaren's will be self financing, ie the sponsorship will pay for the entire running of the team, all the other subsidaries will be making money.....