Biggest car disappointments?

[Soki]

Then i mean when you had big expertations of a certain car and then when you actually sees the car live/drive the car and change your mind about it.

For me...

The new Bmw 7 series.
I always use to love Bmw, exteriour/interiour was the best looking cars for me specially the old 7 & 5 series (E38 & E39). Now they are just some ugly looking cars with a Bmw badge.

The only Bmw that i could possible live with is the lang version of the 7series (lang comes with exterior chrome panels front/back/roof details if not a sportpackage is selected). And another thing, wounder why all the new Bmws now comes without any doorlists? They´re not just good looking but practically too.

The "Bangle design"...
No lists that separates the down side of the car with the upper side, which made the car looks like a big dinosaur. The backdoor silluette that´s been one of Bmws trademarks for many years is destroyed, really the Honda accord is better looking directly in profile. The front has not the luxurycar look because of the lack of chromelists.

The interiour is horrible, wood panels and titan should NOT be suited together if you ask me and its all plastic. The only good thing that i can say about it is that the interiour have a great quality "feeling". It feels solid except for the plastic details. Much better than the new A8 (That in my opinion has the worst quality feeling of all big sedans, the A4 was the last car of Audi that had a solid quality feeling.).

Anything good about the E65?
Yes, the back seat. You sit high and comfortable and it´s kinda "varm" to be in, not like the Mercedes S class or the VW Phaeton that feels a little bit boring. Almost in the Lexus LS league. Anything else...? Well no.

Last words:

I´m sure that Bmw will build a new better looking 7 series in the future without trying to make the car sporty with an controversial avantgarde look, but until then i will drive something else. :wink:

[mv]

possibly the veyron...it was quite predictable though

[PaulGT2164]

the new GTO
good chassis, good motor....bland exterior, everyone things they are a grand prix

[ZfrkS62]

I´m sure that Bmw will build a new better looking 7 series in the future without trying to make the car sporty with an controversial avantgarde look, but until then i will drive something else


sorry, but BMW has ALWAYS aimed for the controversial. why? Marketing. If you build a car that doesn't look like anything else on the road and doesn't conform to any style other than it's own, then people are going to talk about it. The more people talk, the more awareness is generated about your product. if you want a bland looking car, maybe you should consider the Mercedes C or E class.
The E65/66 Facelift should be coming out soon and i think they've changed the front end a little, though i'm not completely sure how. but by the time the E65/66 is done and the next series comes out, alot of cars are going to be borowing styling cues from it. BMW always has style ahead of it's time.


now for my dissapointment rant:

For me, it was the Nissan Titan. I was finally getting excited about Nissan having a V8 in it's lineup but when i saw how much the damn thing resembled an F-150, i was super PISSED. they stuck a V8 in a giant TURD! Samething goes for the Armada, good fucking god man, what the hell do you need an Expedition sized hunk of crap for?! wasn't the Exterra big enough?!?!? With the exception of the Z Roadster, i would have to say Nissan as a whole has let me down :(

[Sir_GT]

Biggest disappointement?

Ever?

Mercedes-Benz

Why? Because they went from a legendary builder of brilliant, high-quality products, to a glorified brand-based, profit-oriented, mass-product company.

[bmwmpower]

BMW M5--- no manual gearbox option.
theres a lot of other shit that i cant think of right now

Every M5 was supersedan,best in it era, E60 is maybe best ever, maual gearbox isnt shit,one of the best today, automatical gearbox is future,


Disappointments- Bugatti- from one of the best car sport and luxurz companies to VW toy today,

[Vansquish]

The Veyron, Koenigsegg CC/CC8S/CCR, and the fact that more and more manufacturers are only offering idiotic manumatic/semi-automatic gearboxes really disappoints me. The Veyron is a disappointment because it's not a particularly good looking car, it's heavy, and it's really just VW's attempt to dethrone the Mclaren F1 and Ferrari Enzo with brute force rather than any sort of finesse. The Koenigseggs are a disappointment because despite their power and speed, they just don't look that special and the interior is one of the most gawd-awful looking creations on the planet. Manumatics/semi-automatics just bother me because they exist primarily to make driving easier and faster which is a problem in and of itself, but combined with the fact that they take a certain amount of car-control out of the driver's hands...well...it just makes driving less of a worthwhile thing to do. I'll take an E39 M5 thank you very much, you can keep the E60 for yourself.

[FordGTGuy]

For me, it was the Nissan Titan. I was finally getting excited about Nissan having a V8 in it's lineup but when i saw how much the damn thing resembled an F-150, i was super PISSED. they stuck a V8 in a giant TURD!


one thing a Nissan Titan is alot smaller than a f-150. The F-150 is alot better and is not a giant turd maybe you should watch this:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/truth/

[mindgam3]

For me, it was the Nissan Titan. I was finally getting excited about Nissan having a V8 in it's lineup but when i saw how much the damn thing resembled an F-150, i was super PISSED. they stuck a V8 in a giant TURD!


one thing a Nissan Titan is alot smaller than a f-150. The F-150 is alot better and is not a giant turd maybe you should watch this:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/truth/

All trucks are giant turds :P

[SFDMALEX]

The new Vette, its the ugliest sports car to come out of america in the last 50 years.

[mindgam3]

The new Vette, its the ugliest sports car to come out of america in the last 50 years.

since when did America make a good looking car? ;)

[SFDMALEX]

The new Vette, its the ugliest sports car to come out of america in the last 50 years.

since when did America make a good looking car? ;)

Since they got a bunch of Brits and Italians in their styling departments :lol:

[redbaron]

and the fact that more and more manufacturers are only offering idiotic manumatic/semi-automatic gearboxes really disappoints me.


ever driven a car with a proper recent semi-automatic gearbox?
I did and it didn't disappoint me at all. The older boxes like in a smart or a citroen are useless, with shiftdelays of a couple of seconds. But the VW DSG and Astra easytonic were quite fun to drive, without major shiftdelays and sophisticated gearchange.

about the new M5, it is impossible to make a logic shiftpattern for a 7-speed manual gearbox

[ZfrkS62]

The new Vette, its the ugliest sports car to come out of america in the last 50 years.

since when did America make a good looking car? ;)

Since they got a bunch of Brits and Italians in their styling departments :lol:

which is why the PT cruiser is the sexiest car out on the street today? :roll: need we mention the new Malibu, Creature..er "Impala"
any of the Chevy trucks/SUVs....does the name H2 mean anything to you?

American companies just can't style cars anymore :P

[SFDMALEX]

and the fact that more and more manufacturers are only offering idiotic manumatic/semi-automatic gearboxes really disappoints me.


ever driven a car with a proper recent semi-automatic gearbox?
I did and it didn't disappoint me at all. The older boxes like in a smart or a citroen are useless, with shiftdelays of a couple of seconds. But the VW DSG and Astra easytonic were quite fun to drive, without major shiftdelays and sophisticated gearchange.

about the new M5, it is impossible to make a logic shiftpattern for a 7-speed manual gearbox

THose gearboxes can be as fast as a rocket but they are still shit.

Nothing beats a proper manual.

And a very good driver will beat if not match the time of a semi-auto with a manual around the track.

You see them in todays GTs for simple reliability issues, they just offer more protection.

And F1 is a whole different story because with ratios that short you'll have to keep your hand on the shifter for the entire race.

[SFDMALEX]

The new Vette, its the ugliest sports car to come out of america in the last 50 years.

since when did America make a good looking car? ;)

Since they got a bunch of Brits and Italians in their styling departments :lol:

which is why the PT cruiser is the sexiest car out on the street today? :roll: need we mention the new Malibu, Creature..er "Impala"
any of the Chevy trucks/SUVs....does the name H2 mean anything to you?

American companies just can't style cars anymore :P

Actually I like some of the trucks these days.

[redbaron]

Nothing beats a proper manual.


I agree with that!! A proper manual is always more fun.

My point is that many people who say those AM-boxes are rubbish, never driven one. So just experience it yourself and make your point afterwards. Don't believe J.C blindly. :wink:

[SFDMALEX]

Nothing beats a proper manual.


I agree with that!! A proper manual is always more fun.

My point is that many people who say those AM-boxes are rubbish, never driven one. So just experience it yourself and make your point afterwards. Don't believe J.C blindly. :wink:

Yeah, they are not rubbish, they do their job, but they still suck. Just like traction control sucks, doesnt mean its not doing its job :wink:

[Vansquish]

Nothing beats a proper manual.


I agree with that!! A proper manual is always more fun.

My point is that many people who say those AM-boxes are rubbish, never driven one. So just experience it yourself and make your point afterwards. Don't believe J.C blindly. :wink:

I didn't say that the Semi-auto/DSG/manumatic boxes are poor, I merely meant to that a proper manual is what a proper driver who enjoys driving ought to be using. With the others it's like making driving into a video game instead of a physically challenging and engaging process...

[SFDMALEX]

What he said /\

[tigerx]

- Merc SLR not having Manual as an option
- Death of Rover V8
- Ugly C6
- Porsche go back in time with the 997
- Koenigsegg still haven't broken the Mac F1 speed record

[e46drew]

Biggest dissapointment??????
no svt ford focus any more, it was at the top of it's class and then BOOM gone :shock:

[sentra_dude]

-e60 M5 no 6spd option...its fine to put the SMG stuff on there, but why not offer a manual too, its completely do-able, I'm sure BMW can handle the challenge of making a 6spd that can withstand 500hp

-SLR...a torque converter? please

-Pontiac, all their new stuff is just as crapy as the old stuff (with the exception of GTO, I like that car)

-Porsche...for jumping on the SUV bandwagon, I know its so they can fund development, and they are a company and must make money...but I still don't like it.

-Toyota! AHHH! Canceling both of their sports-cars...I know there is supposedly a new Supra on the way...but damn, they need some sports-cars right now, and no, a Tacoma with sporty suspension does not count Toyota!

-Honda...end of the NSX replacement...what are they thinking? Also, I have heard rumors that they aren't going to be bringing out a 2nd gen S2000...and it will just end in a few years, what is that shit?

-Ferrari...for making ugly cars.

Wow, that was a lot, lol. :P

[coloradosilver]

The Ford GT!

It's a good car by itself, but this month we're going to see the new Z06 unveiled.

The new Z06 will deliver 99% if not 100% of the GT performance at 1/2 the price! Same cruddy american build quality in both cars makes the GT look really bad in comparison.

The new Z06 will also be (already is) a huge dissapointment!

The price is up nearly $20,000 ($30,000 after dealer mark-ups) from the last model. Because of this Chevy will be losing many loyal corvette customers. The low price and great performance was the Corvette's big selling point. Not that it lost half that equasion by running the price through the roof....there isn't much appeal to it anymore when you can have a slightly used 2002 911 Turbo for about the same price with Porsche quality, handling, reliability, and similar performance.

So...my big USA dissapointments in sumary:

The Ford GT, because you can get the same performance and build quality for 1/2 the price with the new Z06.

&

The new Z06, for having upped their price nearly 35% from the last model. And all you get for that is a measly 95 hp and bigger tires and breaks. The actual car probably only costs chevy a few grand more to build than the last model. Assholes!! :fist:

[bmwmpower]

You are 20or 21 years old, So not great driving skills, And M5 with 500 hp and proper manual will kill you, And M5 was only supersedan with manual, but big sale of E55 or RS6,cos they have automatic, something must change, Enzo had poloautomatic so why not, if the fastest ferrari ever had this system why not we

[Soki]

I can see how Bmw thought when they decided not to have a manual gear for the E60. Like bmwmpower said, it´s not everyone that can handle 500hp but maybe they could´ve included the manual for a individual option so people that really want/can could get one. Anyway i haven´t drove the M5 so i really can´t tell how it works with the SMG.
I remember me not buying the E39 M5 just for one reason, the manual gearbox.

[dangerously_cool]

The Ford GT!

It's a good car by itself, but this month we're going to see the new Z06 unveiled.

The new Z06 will deliver 99% if not 100% of the GT performance at 1/2 the price! Same cruddy american build quality in both cars makes the GT look really bad in comparison.

The new Z06 will also be (already is) a huge dissapointment!

The price is up nearly $20,000 ($30,000 after dealer mark-ups) from the last model. Because of this Chevy will be losing many loyal corvette customers. The low price and great performance was the Corvette's big selling point. Not that it lost half that equasion by running the price through the roof....there isn't much appeal to it anymore when you can have a slightly used 2002 911 Turbo for about the same price with Porsche quality, handling, reliability, and similar performance.

So...my big USA dissapointments in sumary:

The Ford GT, because you can get the same performance and build quality for 1/2 the price with the new Z06.

&

The new Z06, for having upped their price nearly 35% from the last model. And all you get for that is a measly 95 hp and bigger tires and breaks. The actual car probably only costs chevy a few grand more to build than the last model. Assholes!! :fist:
You do realize that auto manufacturers don't make prices up entirely, right? The profit margin on the Z06 from old to new will change very little. The increase in price is mostly from developing new components that weren't changed from C5 to C5 Z06. New engine anyone?

The GT is three times the price because of a little thing called volume. They sell 1500 GT to GM's 20k+ Corvettes per year. That volume change makes a big difference in price.

To me, the greatest disappointment is how Jaguar's been doing. They're books are drenched in red ink, and Ford still hasn't fixed it. The X-type isn't the way to do it, especially after the media spread that it's safety test results are dismal.

They've a great heritage, but it's time to step up in engineering.

[coloradosilver]

The Ford GT!

It's a good car by itself, but this month we're going to see the new Z06 unveiled.

The new Z06 will deliver 99% if not 100% of the GT performance at 1/2 the price! Same cruddy american build quality in both cars makes the GT look really bad in comparison.

The new Z06 will also be (already is) a huge dissapointment!

The price is up nearly $20,000 ($30,000 after dealer mark-ups) from the last model. Because of this Chevy will be losing many loyal corvette customers. The low price and great performance was the Corvette's big selling point. Not that it lost half that equasion by running the price through the roof....there isn't much appeal to it anymore when you can have a slightly used 2002 911 Turbo for about the same price with Porsche quality, handling, reliability, and similar performance.

So...my big USA dissapointments in sumary:

The Ford GT, because you can get the same performance and build quality for 1/2 the price with the new Z06.

&

The new Z06, for having upped their price nearly 35% from the last model. And all you get for that is a measly 95 hp and bigger tires and breaks. The actual car probably only costs chevy a few grand more to build than the last model. Assholes!! :fist:
You do realize that auto manufacturers don't make prices up entirely, right? The profit margin on the Z06 from old to new will change very little. The increase in price is mostly from developing new components that weren't changed from C5 to C5 Z06. New engine anyone?

The GT is three times the price because of a little thing called volume. They sell 1500 GT to GM's 20k+ Corvettes per year. That volume change makes a big difference in price.

To me, the greatest disappointment is how Jaguar's been doing. They're books are drenched in red ink, and Ford still hasn't fixed it. The X-type isn't the way to do it, especially after the media spread that it's safety test results are dismal.

They've a great heritage, but it's time to step up in engineering.

Sorry...but that engine isn't really new...It's just a C5R 427 engine with a few modifications to make it more livable for everyday use. I could have bought one anytime in the last 3 years and had it put in my car to replace the stock 350 for about $10,000.

So you take that and subtract the cost of the original LS6 enging (about 3,000) and you get a $7,000 engine price difference....hardly enough to justify the $25,000 differnce you'll pay for the car.

Your enging arguement doesn't hold up!

New tires...wheels..body style...interrior..breaks...whatever... Just because something has been restyled doesn't mean that it costs more.

As for the GT....your "Little thing called volume" arguement is not what I'm talking about. I'm saying...why would someone buy a GT at 3x the price of a new Z06 only to get the same performance? And if you say exclusivity..you should be smacked!

Granted that "exclusivity" is why some people are buying their GT....that car will depreciate in value faster than anything. Shit...they're already selling on ebay (brand new) for thousands less than Ford is charging.

So it loses out on the value arguemant as well....just like the Z06.

They're both losers in my book.

[dangerously_cool]

The part itself doesn't cost more, but GM has to amortize the cost of changing the parts. The parts themselves could cost the same, or even less, but the development cost of changing them is what increases the car's price.

I'm not justifying the purchase of such an expensive car, I'm justifying its price. Dealers on ebay are nothing more than racketeers, and I'm talking about MSRP. Exclusitivity does amount for part of the price of the car, but when the brand is Ford, it won't amount to much.

[Vansquish]

I can see how Bmw thought when they decided not to have a manual gear for the E60. Like bmwmpower said, it´s not everyone that can handle 500hp but maybe they could´ve included the manual for a individual option so people that really want/can could get one. Anyway i haven´t drove the M5 so i really can´t tell how it works with the SMG.
I remember me not buying the E39 M5 just for one reason, the manual gearbox.

OK guys...(Soki & bmwmpower)...let me get this straight. Having a true manual gearbox and a high-performance car will kill us eh? Is it actually safer for the people who might be buying the car to be able to access the performance whether or not they can drive a manual tranny?

From my point of view it seems that allowing people full access to all that power without actually having to know the finer aspects of driving a vehicle so endowed, seems far more dangerous than if it was a manual-only vehicle like the E39 M5. At least in that car you had to know how to work with your hands AND feet in relative harmony whereas in the newer semi-auto cars all you have to be able to do is press a button or two or flip a couple of paddles. To me, the fact that cars like the AM Vanquish, Enzo, and E60 M5 (not to mention the real offenders, the E55,SL55/SL65, etc...etc... all the way up to the SLR) are offered solely with semi-auto or auto gearboxes is not only dangerous, but somewhat irresponsible on the part of auto manufacturers. The fact that any idiot can get into a car like those and mash the gas and be running with the supercars is frightening, not cool.

[ikon2003]

- Merc SLR not having Manual as an option
- Death of Rover V8
- Ugly C6
- Porsche go back in time with the 997
- Koenigsegg still haven't broken the Mac F1 speed record


Awesome list. And M5 having no manual I'd add too.

And definitely a disappointment, but maybe cuz it's happened so many times we're all used to it: The delay of the Veyron.

I think we've all just become desensitized to Bugatti's delays and are too numb to feel any disappointment anymore.

[jorge]

For me it has to be design of the current BMW´s (X3, 7 series, 5 series, 6 series, Z4), but i´m also dissapointed with the designs at Ferrari (612, Enzo, 360, F430).

IMO altough the Ferraris are not entirely horrible like BMW´s, they are very, very far from the great beauty of the old models (288 GTO, 308, 328, 348, F355, F40, 456GT, etc).

[dons5]

well in 99 the biggest disapointment looks-wise for Ferrari was the 360 Modena when it came out, but then a year later when people actually saw them on the road moving it became one of the most beautiful cars in the world. Then the same thing happened in 02 at first Enzo looked horrible and now its probably the most stunning to look at cars in the world. Now the same thing is happening with the 430, (but to a less extent then the 360), but I can almost guarantee you that car will look unreal in person. And about the 612, well Id have to see it in person, the rear looks too narrow like the 430 does in most pics, but I bet in person everything is proportioned well. Thats probably why Ferraris stay beautiful for sooo long (355 still looks new to this day), because when they first come out they are so ahead of their time and it takes people time to get used to such a site, then when everyone sttles down and gets used to such a shape they happen to all look spectacular.

[dangerously_cool]

I've seen the 612 in person, still too bland.

[dons5]

hhave you seen a 456M in person too?

[dangerously_cool]

Yes, I have. Not for a while though. It's been over four years since I've seen one. They abound in Tokyo. I didn't mind that car as much, I liked the sides more, the front was alright.

[ikon2003]

I've seen a 612 in person too, and I actually thought it looked a lot better than in the pictures. I took some pics myself, and i was showing some friends i had to keep stressing "well, it actually looked better in real life," and it did (to me). Not the most beautiful thing i've seen, but IMO definitely better looking than in pictures.

[Vansquish]

I've seen both the 456GT and 456M parked next to Ferrari 612s....the 612 is definetely a less attractive vehicle. The proportions are somewhat odd what with the passenger compartment being so far aft and the cabin so tall. The rear end is a little trunkated too, and doesn't help the profile, though from the rear it's alright. The nose is a little too busy and not particularly successful as a result. On the other hand, both the 456GT and 456M are quite beautiful. The GT is a more classic design with less fuss around the grill and headlamps, so it gets my vote over the M. In either case I'd take the 456 over the 612 except for the engine. Though 442bhp in the 456 wasn't too shabby lol :-)

[gottacatchup]

Lets see I'll start with the not all that slow death of the manual transmission, that coupled to the utter lack of FR cars for any price I'll be able to afford for the next 10 years.

The GTO, which still looks like a cough drop even with the stupid tacked on hood scoops.

The new mustang, they finaly realized how to make it look good again. They also made a more efficeint modern engine but they still refuse to modernize the car to the point of having a decent suspension.

AMG for continuing to put stupidly large engines into cars that weigh more then my brothers huge hunk of steel and iron bronco. Take a page from Lotus' book and make a lightweight, nimble car with USABLE power.

Oh and BMW for not selling the new 545 Wagon in the US.

[mindgam3]

Biggest dissapointment is the ford GT, not because of its performance, but because it should be a more of an all round amazing car like the original.

It was never going to sell in huge volumes so why bother cutting back on the price and finishing touches to try and compete with others in its price brackets.

Second dissapointment is not the semi/paddle/button 'boxes that are getting more and more common, they're great, and are getting better all the time. It is the fact more and more companies are not offering the same cars with manuals as others have said. I dont disapprove of semi 'boxes but at least give the customer a choice

[pimrusis]

What do you mean by more "all round amazing"?

[mindgam3]

i.e they got the shape and performance just about spot on, but i feel just about everything else was lacking..... the finish, the interior quality/individualiity/originality and most importantly the noise - from what i've read and heard you can hardly here it on the inside and outside it isnt much better, it should have more of a rumbly bark to go with its looks and performance.

I would've preffered if they upped the price to more like £150k and put more effort and thought into the finishing touches to make it the special car it should have been - as it is it's just labbled with the rest of the porsches, ferrari's and lambos, it should have been in a class of its own - ie more like and enzo or zonda etc

[jorge]

I saw about an hour ago a 612 Scaglietti on the street, and i can confirm it´s a disappointment for me, the car doesn´t look special as a Ferrari should. :(

[vwolf2183]

I agree with sir_gt
Mercedes Benz, I guess Jay Z said it best: "Her-cedes Benz"
I mean look at cars like like the cl and sl 65, big on numbers but low on driveability. Not very exciting to drive, they are more about the name than the drive.

[bmagni]

I guess i havent had major disappointments with cars.

i really would have liked the manual in the m5
also now that were talkin bout bmw i hope the new m3 doesnt come with turbo cause that would make me really really sad, what i like bout bmw is that they make awesome cars without turbos or superchargers.

also the new audi cars arent as good looking as the last generation, the a3 looks awful, the recently facelifted a4 looks uglier than the past one that i used to like, and the a6 front grill looks like hell, the a8 is the best one IMO.

and Mercedes well i guess they disappointed me long time ago so i dont expect much of em

[ZfrkS62]

also now that were talkin bout bmw i hope the new m3 doesnt come with turbo cause that would make me really really sad


4 liter V8 :wink: only turbo BMW will have in North America is going to be on the 330 :wink:

[mindgam3]

Yeah, they are not rubbish, they do their job, but they still suck. Just like traction control sucks, doesnt mean its not doing its job :wink:

have you driven a DSG? i don't feel you can comment unless you have ;)

i was skeptical just like you...but i felt very different after i tried it out.

Agreed, i think most people who complain about paddle shifters/semi's haven't actually tried them. The DSG is an awesome system along with Aston's DB9 and ferrari's ever improving system. BMW's is also a good system if not a little slow (at least on the M3, i'm sure its been improved for the new M5).

I do think manufactuers should always offer the customer the option of a manual as well as whatever semi's/autos that they choose to use IMO.

[stradale]

I haven't driven a car with one of those gearboxes, but I'm sure they're getting better all the time. My biggest disappointment is not that these gearboxes are around, but that some manufacturers don't provide a choice anymore for the customer what gearbox to have on his new car. We've seen this with the E60 M5, M3 CSL, Vanquish, 360 CS. What's more, these cars are built by marques that are all about driving pleasure. They should be the last ones to deny customers a manual gearbox IMO. Ferrari officials have already stated that the F1 gearboxes are now so good and fast that there's no reason anymore for manuals. They're thinking about fitting future models with F1 gearboxes only. I can't believe Ferrari people are saying that! They're completely missing the point!! :sad:

[findleybeast]

It seems I'm disappointed with a lot of the same stuff you guys are - the Bangle-ized BMW, and the lack of manual gearboxes on a lot cars are at the top of my list. I think if the new BMWs weren't actually BMWs, but some other company, they'd be great. But as BMWs I almost hate them.
Another gripe I have is with another German automaker - Mercedes. What the hell has happened to them? Sure, they can squeeze enormously powerful engines into any of their cars, but where has the build quality gone? Plus they seem to have the world's longest list of alphanumeric model types and variations...
One other thing, though its not too big of a deal - the return of the old-school Porsche headlights. I was a really big fan of the eggyolk shaped ones, so this seems to be a step backward for Porsche in my eyes.... :(

[dons5]

well even the guys that hate the F1 boxes are saying with how good it is on the 430 even they are gettin to the point were the actually wouldnt mind it and are quit pleased with it, but if Ferrari ever tottally ends the regular gearbox line I would go crazy.

p.s. Does Ferrari develop and put thought behind there H gates> or are they almost always the basic same stuff from year to year model to model since the F1's are so popular they just focus on them instead?

[SilviaEvo]

not a lot of Euro cars are in america damn those regs