Porsche fined $7.9 million

[possessed_beaver]

from:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/041230-1.htm

Washington, D.C. -The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced civil penalties against Porsche and Ferrari totalling over U.S.$9 million for failing to meet Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) limits.

Porsche was fined U.S.$7,896,025 for not meeting CAFE requirements in the 2002 and 2003 model years, and Ferrari Maserati North America was fined U.S.$1,139,710 for non-compliance in 2003.

General Motors paid a civil penalty of U.S.$1 million to settle charges that it failed to conduct a timely recall to correct a safety defect. The problem involved windshield wiper failure in 581,344 Trailblazers, Bravadas, Envoys and Isuzu Ascenders manufactured in 2002 and 2003.


7.9 million, i think Porsche would of made plans for the fine to come out of there sales, they probley see it as more of a tax then a fine,
do you think they will keep recieving one evrey year, probley a much better option then changing there cars.

[possessed_beaver]

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced civil penalties against Porsche and Ferrari totalling over U.S.$9 million for failing to meet Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) limits.

Fuel economy... in the US??? What about the Hummers, Escalades, Vipers... do they respect those limits?

there is probley 2 sets of rules, one for the local cars, and one for imports :S

not sure, can someone from america possibley explain this?

maybee they have the policy because germany diden't indave iraq they don't get to use the american oil.... :roll:

[Wutputt]

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced civil penalties against Porsche and Ferrari totalling over U.S.$9 million for failing to meet Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) limits.

Fuel economy... in the US??? What about the Hummers, Escalades, Vipers... do they respect those limits?

I was thinking exactly the same dani.


Pretty obvious powerful sportcars use more fuel. But do they have to be punished for that. Only a minor part of the cars driving around are powerful sportcars. Wouldn't a more logical method for dropping overall fuel consumption by making it financially less interesting to buy fuel thirsty cars, instead of punishing the makers of these cars. It's not really fair, sportcar makers will have to pay a lot in this case.

[possessed_beaver]

also a sports car runs high octane fuel, that is oftern has less polution and is more efficent, and there is only very few sports cars compared to pasanger cars,

and there is probley more hummers in america then Porsche's...

[sikx5]

I think its to do with the fact that the average fuel economey was not tested and stated on the cars? (those yellow stickers with a fuel pump logo?)

[cooperluke]

This can only be a joke... if Porsche is going to be fined in U.S.$7,896,025, then Dodge, with the Viper and those huge trucks, should be fined 10 times more!!
America, trying to teach European cars fuel economy ??? LOLOL

[TransAm]

Just to add to Gooduck's comments - I read somewhere it costs an absolute fortune to certify an engine in the US, for emissions etc

While it is (probably) the worlds biggest market for manufacturers, the import cars usually only have a handful of different engines serving the full product range.

[nthfinity]

another reason for the fine reaching porsche, ferrari, and masaratti is what was mentioned as the 'corperate average'

this is why GM, Ford, DXC etc. dont get fined... they are allowed to have some cars eat gas, while it is offset by other cars that only 'pet' gas... high performance auto makers dont have a wide degree of cars that only pet gas to offset thier gas guzzlers.

[No.1]

America is seriously missing the point by placing laws on importers and relaxing them for home-grown shite :roll: The Escalade is a warbling blob of shite - we've had one :wink: That was our first, and last American car, except maybe the 300C Hemi Chrysler :twisted:

When will America realise - their current usage of fuel and the strain it puts on the oil reserves of the world is unsustainable. It is also selfish and will blow up in their faces when we need to find an alternative. It's a case of, we can't be arsed improving our fuel economy, we will let the europeans do it. :|

[RC45]

My car has no gas guzzler tax .. :P

[nthfinity]

^^^
yet cars which perform similarly are ;)

thenumber1, just because there is a tax on it doesnt mean people wont buy it... including in europe :roll:

[sameerrao]

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced civil penalties against Porsche and Ferrari totalling over U.S.$9 million for failing to meet Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) limits.

Fuel economy... in the US??? What about the Hummers, Escalades, Vipers... do they respect those limits?

Its a corporate fuel average - therefore GM which has the fuel guzzlers like the Hummer and Escalade makes up for it with its economy cars like the Chevy Cavaliar, Malibu, etc...

Ferrari and Porsche have no such avenue of escape as they only deal with the top end of the spectrum. But this is something that Porsche and Ferrari can pass over to their customers with small price increase to cover this. Its no big deal.

I havent paid close attention to this issue but there is a move to make trucks more fuel efficient in the future to help cope with stricter CAFE laws
- E.g. hybrid trucks

[graywolf624]

America is seriously missing the point by placing laws on importers and relaxing them for home-grown shite
Nothing to do with importers and everything to do with type of vehicle.. Importers are your typical tarrifs.. blame that on the idiot liberals of the world who whine about outsourcing and dont understand that free trade benefits all.

their current usage of fuel and the strain it puts on the oil reserves of the world is unsustainable. It is also selfish and will blow up in their faces when we need to find an alternative. It's a case of, we can't be arsed improving our fuel economy, we will let the europeans do it
Proven economically impossible that it will blow up in any ones face.. From an economic model there has never been an instance of a natural resource sustaining a long term real increase in price.. As prices rise gradually.. and they will.. alternatives will arise.. with or without govt involvement or peoples choices.. Suddenly being out of gas and in trouble isnt the fear re: cafe in any way shape or form.. Read about simon vs ehrlich and environmental economics for more info..

My specialty in economics was environmental and trade.

[ikon2003]

For companies like GM and Ford, they actually often sell their lowest end, most fuel economical cars AT A LOSS just so they can boost the numbers sold and so that they can raise their "corporate average fuel economy" - and then reap the higher margin of profits of the escalades etc.

And where's Lamborghini on that list? they have a much worse av fuel economy than Ferrari or porsche... maybe they didn't sell enuf cars.

[graywolf624]

And where's Lamborghini on that list? t
audi and vw smooth there numbers

[Fleischmann]

That's retarded. As already pointed out, what about all the american v8 cars, hummers etc. ??

IMO is this stupid rule applied to manufacturers or to whole car groups ??

[graywolf624]

his stupid rule applied to manufacturers or to whole car groups ??

In the eyes of the american govt they are the same thing.. as its the same company.

If fiat started selling fiats and alfas in america theyd prolly avoid issues.

[T-Bird]

You guy's keep refering to the HUMMER which is excluded from all emissions and fuel consumption rules because they run on Diesel, diesel trucks/cars are exempt from fuel consumption rules. And SUV's get better mileage than a 612 which gets like 10/12 mpg when a large engined SUV get's as much as 15mpg.

[neilo63]

.... anyway for organizations to make money. Not like porsche will miss it.

[ikon2003]

And where's Lamborghini on that list? t
audi and vw smooth there numbers


Not so much... Lambo is notorious for being one of, if not THE, worst fuel economy car-companies on the planet. Murcielago gets the US Government's 1st worst fuel economy rating for a two-seat car.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/best/bestworstNF.shtml

granted they only have two models, and even though they're experiencing the best sales years they have had in their 40+ yr history, they're still a small manufacturer and have lower volumes compared to porsche and ferrari - that's my theory.

[graywolf624]

, and even though they're experiencing the best sales years they have had in their 40+ yr history, they're still a small manufacturer and have lower volumes compared to porsche and ferrari - that's my theory.

Yeah but see its done by percentage of total sales by the company(in the US).. lambo=vw auto group.
for every lambo theres thousands of beattles and jettas to smooth the curve. Porsche and ferrari are the only ones that stand alone as sports car makers without a parent economy car(that sells in america.. we dont have fiats here)

[BADMIHAI]

Something seriously needs to be done about classifying SUVs as "trucks". These fuckers aren't paying all the taxes they should pay. :|

[ZfrkS62]

, and even though they're experiencing the best sales years they have had in their 40+ yr history, they're still a small manufacturer and have lower volumes compared to porsche and ferrari - that's my theory.

Yeah but see its done by percentage of total sales by the company(in the US).. lambo=vw auto group.
for every lambo theres thousands of beattles and jettas to smooth the curve. Porsche and ferrari are the only ones that stand alone as sports car makers without a parent economy car(that sells in america.. we dont have fiats here)

wait, isn't Porsche still part of the VW group? If so, the gov't must not be looking at them as one corporation, just individual manufacturers. You would think that the Beetles, Jettas and Golfs would save the company a few MPG...but i could be wrong since i don't know how exactly they look at all these things.

BMW you would think would have gotten hit, having a 6L V12, a 4.4, 6 and 8L V8. the 2.5 and 3L straight 6 engines are their only saving grace with a hiway consumption of 28. (i don't have all the figures on front of me for the engines, i only remember the hiway mileage from the stickers on all the PDIs i've been doing lately)

[ikon2003]

^ ^ ^ oh, i gocha now. yeah, that makes sense.

[ikon2003]

, and even though they're experiencing the best sales years they have had in their 40+ yr history, they're still a small manufacturer and have lower volumes compared to porsche and ferrari - that's my theory.

Yeah but see its done by percentage of total sales by the company(in the US).. lambo=vw auto group.
for every lambo theres thousands of beattles and jettas to smooth the curve. Porsche and ferrari are the only ones that stand alone as sports car makers without a parent economy car(that sells in america.. we dont have fiats here)

wait, isn't Porsche still part of the VW group? If so, the gov't must not be looking at them as one corporation, just individual manufacturers. You would think that the Beetles, Jettas and Golfs would save the company a few MPG...but i could be wrong since i don't know how exactly they look at all these things.

BMW you would think would have gotten hit, having a 6L V12, a 4.4, 6 and 8L V8. the 2.5 and 3L straight 6 engines are their only saving grace with a hiway consumption of 28. (i don't have all the figures on front of me for the engines, i only remember the hiway mileage from the stickers on all the PDIs i've been doing lately)

No, I don't think that Porsche is part of the VW group - they just share platforms and have friendly business relationships. (German auto manufacturing fraternity of sorts :) ) As far as I know Porshe is still independent.

And BMW i think gets saved by the many # of 3 series it sells, so it's average is higher.

[graywolf624]

Porsche is independent..
BMW has the mini for one.

[ZfrkS62]

Porsche is independent..
BMW has the mini for one.

i keep forgetting about that damn little thing...probably because i didn't get mini training :?

but i think they also may get saved because of their motorcycles. but i'm not sure if motorcycles get counted.

[ikon2003]

Porsche is independent..
BMW has the mini for one.

Lol, BMW has Rolls Royces too!

[ZfrkS62]

Porsche is independent..
BMW has the mini for one.

Lol, BMW has Rolls Royces too!

RR doesn't sell nearly enough cars here to even make a splash in pond

[666fast]

his stupid rule applied to manufacturers or to whole car groups ??

In the eyes of the american govt they are the same thing.. as its the same company.

If fiat started selling fiats and alfas in america theyd prolly avoid issues.

Apparently, selling Fiats here wouldn't help. The Fiat conglomerate owns both Fiat Motors and Ferrari. But Ferrari is not under Fiat Motors. So, who knows if it would work or not.

Porsche has the Hybrid Cayenne in the works. Maybe that will help with the CAFE requirements.

[ikon2003]

Porsche is independent..
BMW has the mini for one.

Lol, BMW has Rolls Royces too!

RR doesn't sell nearly enough cars here to even make a splash in pond

Yup, very true - with their entire one model lineup. Just pointing it out.

[No.1]

You guy's keep refering to the HUMMER which is excluded from all emissions and fuel consumption rules because they run on Diesel, diesel trucks/cars are exempt from fuel consumption rules. And SUV's get better mileage than a 612 which gets like 10/12 mpg when a large engined SUV get's as much as 15mpg.

Nice example, lol... seriously, there are around 200 612Scags' on the road in the world ATM, compared to millions of F150s Hummers Rams etc...

I'm sure that the £170k price of the Scag is slightly higher than the more accessible £30k F150 :roll:

[FoxFour]

Nevermind, forgot what I was going to say :?

[graywolf624]

[quote]The Fiat conglomerate owns both Fiat Motors and Ferrari.[.quote]
They are an interesting case.. Ive neve been able to learn that much about there setup.. From my own observations it seems like stock purchasing at over 50 percent(aka revenue is treated from an accounting perspective as ownership, but the ownership doesnt really exist).

Under that same auspice though.. subaru isnt gm(25 percent stock ownership) and mazda(35 percent but also largest shareholder I think) isnt ford.

[FordGTGuy]

America is seriously missing the point by placing laws on importers and relaxing them for home-grown shite :roll: The Escalade is a warbling blob of shite - we've had one :wink: That was our first, and last American car, except maybe the 300C Hemi Chrysler :twisted:

When will America realise - their current usage of fuel and the strain it puts on the oil reserves of the world is unsustainable. It is also selfish and will blow up in their faces when we need to find an alternative. It's a case of, we can't be arsed improving our fuel economy, we will let the europeans do it. :|

some of you guys aren't getting the point. They do this to make it so more people are buying american products then imports and this helps the economy.

and Ford does own Mazda

f-150s can even get 18 mpg highway.

[TransAm]

You guy's keep refering to the HUMMER which is excluded from all emissions and fuel consumption rules because they run on Diesel, diesel trucks/cars are exempt from fuel consumption rules. And SUV's get better mileage than a 612 which gets like 10/12 mpg when a large engined SUV get's as much as 15mpg.

Nice example, lol... seriously, there are around 200 612Scags' on the road in the world ATM, compared to millions of F150s Hummers Rams etc...

I'm sure that the £170k price of the Scag is slightly higher than the more accessible £30k F150 :roll:

With rebates and such you can get a basic V8 pickup for about $18-20000

That's a mere ten thousand of your English pounds, sir! Or what you'd pay for a Kia in the UK :|

[e46drew]

My car has no gas guzzler tax .. :P

It gets good milage i'm sure, 30's ???
My old 5.0 did :)

[e46drew]

Porsche is independent..
BMW has the mini for one.

i keep forgetting about that damn little thing...probably because i didn't get mini training :?

but i think they also may get saved because of their motorcycles. but i'm not sure if motorcycles get counted.

This applys to all registered vehicles including boats, motorcycles, snowmobiles. Yamaha, in its GP1200/1300 has a catalytic converter in it, and its a 2 cycle motor

[graywolf624]

some of you guys aren't getting the point. They do this to make it so more people are buying american products then imports and this helps the economy.

and Ford does own Mazda

point a) not through emission laws.. They do so with tarrifs... with a but.. Toyota and the like build plants here to get around the tarrifs... and they do. Im against tarrifs... what is cconcerning is that some states dont charge tax to the plants cause of the jobs they create.. sorta an attraction thing. In fact I have heard gm executives complain about this last phenomenon routinely in an effort to push the buy american stuff.
Im still against tarrifs.. and Ill buy whatevers the best car out there, country be damned.

point b) yes and no.. They own 35 percent stake inn the stock of mazda.. a majority share..They are not by any means the sole owner..
In that respect its very similar to the fiat ferrari relationship... albeit not to the subaru one where gm has shares of 25 percent stock(non majority) in the company (fuji heavy industries) that owns subaru.

Lastly.. corvettes get 28 mpg highway.

[gottacatchup]

Again these taxes are decided by looking at a manufacture's complete model line average. Even though the hulking SUVs and pickups have terrible milelage the other cars in the line are good enough to keep the average acceptable.

Anyone think this marks the return of the 914 to fix the average?

[FPVPSI]

mmm...obviously Ford, GM sell more cars then Ferarri and Porsche, maybe the US goverment is un-happy about this from financial point of view. See you pay tax on new Fords, GM cars and all the rest of them yank cars, and at the end of the year all the tax generated would be massive...

Now cause Porsche and Ferrari are low volume sellers, there tax figure generated is much at the end of the year, (and yes before anyone statrs i am aware that ur paying "Luxury" tax not the average one) So hence them coming up with this ridiculous law, to some what get some more money out of these manufacturers...

Okay, maybe that might be all wrong, but it could be a possibility... :?:

- 8)

[graywolf624]

Okay, maybe that might be all wrong, but it could be a possibility...
Nope.. its people of the environmental religion from our country. John Kerry was backing this agenda piece I do recall.