Big Problem

[TopGearNL]

You have all read the topic about Jaguar pulling out of formula 1
http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16998

But there is something else also explained in that topic and that is that Cosworth is for sale or may quit Formula 1 aswell.

That should mean that Jordan and Minardi won't have engines or a enginesupplier for next year and that could also be the end of these teams.

The only solution I see for those teams that is Cosworth does quit is look for an different engine, a Honda engine or a Mercedes, but then again these are very expensive ideas and these teams (Jordan and Minardi) do have a budget, if you know what I mean :x

What now? Will we see 3 teams leaving Formula 1, I certainly hope not :(

[Ghostbat]

Does it really matter if Jordan and Minardi leaves the F1 circus? Just fewer backmarkers to lap for the other teams´.

[ZfrkS62]

if those two leave there will be a lot less chances for the younger drivers to start their F1 careers. most of the rookie drivers start off with the small private teams.
So with the loss of Jordan and Minardi, i think we would pretty much see the lineups frozen until contracts start expiring. The only affordable way i see those two getting new engines is by going with the Renault enigine. i don't know how affordable Fiat would make their engine to wither of those teams, but since Sauber are running them i don;t think it would be that horrible.

And i don't want to start seeing suggestions of having one engine supplier for all teams the way CART/IRL does it. If a team can't build a reliable engine *cough*mercedes*cough* don't make someone else bail them out. Yeah that might shut ron dennis up but you're going to have alot more teams speaking up and complaining.

[Toronto]

toyota is the answer, they have been heard wanting to sell their engines.

[ZfrkS62]

hmmm...mid-grid engine powering back of the grid cars? i like that idea. after all, we do have a front of the grid engine in a set of mid grid cars already, that could make things really interesting.

[stracing]

f1 does need those teams, look where webber, fischella, alonso came from

it will be a huge loss if they left

[aks]

i say get Lamborghini into F1, that would be interesting!!

[TransAm]

i say get Lamborghini into F1, that would be interesting!!


Yeah man! Do any of our resident Lambo experts know why they don't compete in F1 already?

[stracing]

thats upto vw to decide, last i read they didn't want to spend the money

[possessed_beaver]

there is a clause in the concorde agreement, that says if it drops below "x" teams the remaning teams will run 3 F1 cars each...

imagine how much a ferrari 1,2,3 finish would suck!

[Toronto]

i say get Lamborghini into F1, that would be interesting!!


Yeah man! Do any of our resident Lambo experts know why they don't compete in F1 already?

they did, and they were a laugh, thats why they stay away from racing.

SEAT might be the best chance for VW to get into F1

[nthfinity]

i was thinking mabey lotus could get back into F1... backed by GM... GM already shows some amazing race know how in the ALMS, and european GT tours...

[mindgam3]

i think there a lot of companies that are "could be's" for F1 but i dont think anyone wants to get into F1 when ferrari are so dominant at the moment and the chances of them getting to the top aren't that great - see jaguars performance and toyota, the biggest car company in the world, even they cant do much to even get up with BAR, McLaren, Williams or even sauber for that matter. Although ford hardly gave them a chance considering they were only around for a few years, and webber proved by having a good driver that he is, they were improving all the time.

[Toronto]

toyota is the 2nd biggest car company in terms of sales, GM has been #1 for 70+ plust years :wink:

[ZfrkS62]

i don't think GM is cut out for the demands of F1. Yeah the engines they run in NASCAR and CART have shown alot of reliability, but just because an engine can spin at high revs for sustained amounts of time, doesn't mean they can go up and down in their ranges the way an F1 car can. If you think about it, F1 tracks like Monaco are as close to stop and go driving as you can get, unlike CART and NASCAR which run on oval tracks for 500miles, its all freeway :wink:

For GM to make the jump, i think they will have divert too much of their motorsport budget to be able to run factory entries in any other type of racing.

[mindgam3]

toyota is the 2nd biggest car company in terms of sales, GM has been #1 for 70+ plust years :wink:

I think toyota are biggest in terms of profit/overall wealth or something fairly relative though aren't they? I'm not 100% sure so dont flame me ;)

[sameerrao]

f1 does need those teams, look where webber, fischella, alonso came from

it will be a huge loss if they left

Not to mention one Michael Schumacher ...

[CSedl87]

Minardi/Jordan is a stepping stone for the younger people. Although it seems like sauber may stepping up to this... As for the Toyota engines in 'em, that'd be awesome. A Ferrari 1,2,3 would def suck, but BAR would be more competitive in a 3 car setup. Davidson, Button (if he doesn't leave), and Sato. That's a nice line up right there! :shock:

[sentra_dude]

toyota is the 2nd biggest car company in terms of sales, GM has been #1 for 70+ plust years :wink:

I think toyota are biggest in terms of profit/overall wealth or something fairly relative though aren't they? I'm not 100% sure so dont flame me ;)

At least in America Toyota is #1 in car sales, but I don't know about the entire world...


On the comment about Toyota being a mid-field runner...yes, that's true, but that's mostly aerodynamic and chassis issues and the occasional reliability issue...they currently have if not the most powerful, the 2nd most powerful engine behind BMW. So it would make a pretty good engine for the back runners IMO, at least, as long as it didn't blow-up... ;)

[ZfrkS62]

Sentra, don't forget the other factor that is causing Toyota to linger midfield..the drivers. Panis and Da Matta aren't as skilled as the front runners and barely manage to stay in front of the rear of the pack. If they knew how do drive around the stability issues that low downforce causes, the may Montoya was able to drive around the problem the twin tusks of the williams presented, I think that Toyota's aero issues are solved.
as for the reliability problems, well...who knows who could solve that *cough*Tifosi*cough*

[chipanggo]

well, as bernie just said, if ever jordan and minardi go too, it is stipulated in agreement with the other teams that they will run 3rd cars. in a way, i don't see this as a bad idea. it would be more exciting to see 3 ferraris, 3 williamses and 3 mclarens battling at the front than a minardi and a jordan at the back.

[ZfrkS62]

if that happens, the 2005 podiums are going to be Schumacher, Barrichello and probably Luca Badoer. Is this REALLY what people want to see? frankly i think i'll be sick to see that, unless the 3rd cars start from the back rows....i dunno...this overspeculation is driving me nuts. let's just hope someone buys out Jag.

[chipanggo]

your right. the best thing would be for someone to buy out jag and cosworth. calling on VW/AUDI.

[ZfrkS62]

does VW own Bugatti too? If not, i say lets get them on the line.

[CSedl87]

well, as bernie just said, if ever jordan and minardi go too, it is stipulated in agreement with the other teams that they will run 3rd cars. in a way, i don't see this as a bad idea. it would be more exciting to see 3 ferraris, 3 williamses and 3 mclarens battling at the front than a minardi and a jordan at the back.
If the McPlosions don't explode, then they might, big might, possibly make 4th or 5th. BAR, and Renault are just too strong of teams for McLaren to compete. Also to whoever said toyota has the strongest engine, not really. I'd say it goes Ferrari, BAR, BMW, Renault, Mercedes, sauber, then toyota, and then the cosworth engines. If Button doesn't move to Williams, imho he'll have matured more, and should do much better next year than this year. I'm still hoping that he takes a pole in the last couple races left before next year.

[Toronto]

well, as bernie just said, if ever jordan and minardi go too, it is stipulated in agreement with the other teams that they will run 3rd cars. in a way, i don't see this as a bad idea. it would be more exciting to see 3 ferraris, 3 williamses and 3 mclarens battling at the front than a minardi and a jordan at the back.
If the McPlosions don't explode, then they might, big might, possibly make 4th or 5th. BAR, and Renault are just too strong of teams for McLaren to compete. Also to whoever said toyota has the strongest engine, not really. I'd say it goes Ferrari, BAR, BMW, Renault, Mercedes, sauber, then toyota, and then the cosworth engines. If Button doesn't move to Williams, imho he'll have matured more, and should do much better next year than this year. I'm still hoping that he takes a pole in the last couple races left before next year.

fist BAR engines overheat more then a cosworth does, so i don't know how you can rank them 2nd. Toyota has ran in more laps then mercedes has, so it doesn't look like a bad choice to start selling their engines to other companies, not that bad of an idea to have a jordan or minardi with the engine that claims to have the most HP.

o and sauber is a ferrari engine so it doesn't count :wink:

[mindgam3]

I'd say its debatable but Ferrari, Williams or Toyota (IMO in that order) have the most powerful engines, followed by mercedes. Then probably BAR and the cosworths, Renault's engine isn't actually that powerful.

Reliability is a different issue though. My guess is McLaren have risked putting high risk parts on thier MB engine to get more power from it in the hope to try and beat ferrari this season. Hopefully it'll be more of a level playing field next year and the top teams will all have more equal reliability as it was before this year.

and bernie on the 3 car issue:
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=31140

[ZfrkS62]

Reliability is a different issue though. My guess is McLaren have risked putting high risk parts on thier MB engine to get more power from it in the hope to try and beat ferrari this season. Hopefully it'll be more of a level playing field next year and the top teams will all have more equal reliability as it was before this year.


we'll have to wait and see what winter testing brings us for 2005. I have a feeling that Mercedes will have worked the kinks out of their engines by the time the red lights come on for the first race in '05 (i saw the schedule somewhere, i'll have to look again but i think Albert Park is still the first race of the year). Ferrari..well i think we can expect to see the same results from them unless Mosley decides to mess with the engine rules at the last minute. :roll:

I would say though that MB does have a more powerful engine than Ferrari, but the problem is it just doesn't make full power until the #6 connecting rod plows through the side of the block :lol:

[mindgam3]

guess so, but if we see engine rules changing to a 2.4l V8 vormat, we could see BMW and Honda leaving altogether as well :(

[ZfrkS62]

i think BMW will stay.Since th P84 is made in the same plant as the S54 and S62, i think it would just be a case of adapting the molds. BMW has the materials figured out IMO,so i think they would be able to adapt rather quickly. Honda i'm not so sure about, i don't think they have the budget to r&d a new engine. but i have heard some dangerous rumors about Ferrari packing it in if that happens :cry: . Why would Ferrari leave just because of the engine? probably a threat to their dominance. As for the smaller teams...wellllll.....depends on who they got to supply their engines. i couldn't imagine a V8 F1 engine costing a whole lot less than a V10 due to the shift in manufacturing. The alternative i guess would be for Jordan and Minardi to drop into F3000....? I'm not that familiar with that level of racing, but isnt that the engine they are using anyway? if so this whole essay was for nothing :lol: anyhoo...an engine format shift would rustle a few more feathers.

[Ill Dottore]

i was thinking mabey lotus could get back into F1... backed by GM... GM already shows some amazing race know how in the ALMS, and european GT tours...

That could be nice.. but there is a little problem:

Lotus is owned now by the malaysian Proton, and the name Team Lotus is owned by David Hunt, brother of James Hunt

GM had Lotus in the end of the 90's, but decided to sell it because it was "dead weight"