need some clearification

[tigerx]

does Renault own Nissan or does Nissan own Renault or are they even related in anyway? i'm pretty sure they are though.

[HeilSvenska]

I say Renault practically owns Nissan, although it probably is a partnership. Nissan's president/CEO Carlos Ghosn is a Renault asset

[tigerx]

i c, lol that's pretty much all i need to hear.

[Paco]

To set up a powerful automotive group ranked in the top five worldwide by boosting the performance of Renault and Nissan through wide-ranging cooperation, while preserving the two companies' distinct identities: this was the aim of the agreement signed on March 27, 1999 when Renault took an equity interest in Nissan. The Alliance is the first industrial and commercial alliance of this type between a French company and a Japanese company. Renault and Nissan are pursuing a common strategy for profitable growth and are linked by a community of interests

All you need to know (isn't Google something :wink: )
http://www.renault.com/gb/groupe/alliances_p1.htm

[capore]

The thing is that Renault provides its engines to Nissan. In order to verify what I'm saying, you only have to watch the rear of the new nissan primera for example with diesel engine. Now, Nissan call them dCi instead of the other name that gave to it (I don't remember now), as renault.
Instead of being equally potentiated, Nissan has reduced the bhp as a result of the competence that would provoque having the same engine power in the new Laguna and in the new Primera...do you know what I mean?...Guarantee, lower prices, all this things.

[ae86_16v]

Carlos Ghosn practically saved the company.

[antonioledesma]

To set up a powerful automotive group ranked in the top five worldwide by boosting the performance of Renault and Nissan through wide-ranging cooperation, while preserving the two companies' distinct identities: this was the aim of the agreement signed on March 27, 1999 when Renault took an equity interest in Nissan.
Renault and Nissan are pursuing a common strategy for profitable growth and are linked by a community of interests

yeah yeah... that's like the same BS daimler-benz and chrysler told everyone: the two companies will merge, unite, no buying, etc.

and in the past years we saw the chrysler ceo walk out, and the germans taking over (more)

As I know and read ir here again, Renault bought a big amount of nissan's stocks. So nissan's ass belong to a frenchy

[Apac102]

what about Audi and VW? Don't they share engines? I know audi owns lambo but does it own VW too?

[tigerx]

um aren't they suppose to be competitors??? jeez i'm lost.

[PATo355]

what about Audi and VW? Don't they share engines? I know audi owns lambo but does it own VW too?

Actually VW owns audi and audi owns Lambo

[tigerx]

really??? i thought audi was independent, i was pretty sure of it too.

[TransAm]

VW also owns SEAT and Skoda, european brands which used to be independent before VW bought them

I think they get SEATs in Mexico. Can anyone confirm that? If so, how difficult is it to import one from Mexico ( i live in TX so distance is no problem :wink: )

[RC45]

really??? i thought audi was independent, i was pretty sure of it too.
Audi and VW have been one and the same (almost like - but not quite the same as Lexus - Toyota) since Hitler sucked on the lead pill...

I am not saying an Audi is a rebadged VW - but that they are 2 brands in one company so to speak.

Having had a grandfather who was the Chairman of VW/Audi helps a lot too.. :P

[antonioledesma]

audi and VW form the VAG(volkswagen audi group) don't they?

why don't we put here all car manufacturers and their brands and others manufacturers they own?
such as:
ford: jaguar, volvo, mazda, their home brands as lincoln, mercury,
bmw: rolls royce and I don't remember more
vag: vw, audi, seat, skoda, lambo, bentley
renault-nissan: renault and nissan (duuh :roll: )
daimler chrysler: mercedes benz, chrysler, dodge, jeep, "hyundai", mitsubishi
the french group of peugeot and citroen
fiat: ferrari, fiat
GM: cadillac, chevrolet,

please confirm these, correct them etc

TransAm2001: SEAT are available in mexico, and almost all their models are here, except for the ibiza cupra.
I don't know a thing about importing a seat to mexico, but here to import a car from USA or canada, it must have at least 50 or 51% (I'm not sure if it's more) of parts made in the NAFTA, so maybe you'll need to pay more taxes for a seat than a jetta

[TransAm]

audi and VW form the VAG(volkswagen audi group) don't they?

why don't we put here all car manufacturers and their brands and others manufacturers they own?
such as:
ford: jaguar, volvo, mazda, their home brands as lincoln, mercury,
bmw: rolls royce and I don't remember more
vag: vw, audi, seat, skoda, lambo, bentley
renault-nissan: renault and nissan (duuh :roll: )
daimler chrysler: mercedes benz, chrysler, dodge, jeep, "hyundai", mitsubishi
the french group of peugeot and citroen
fiat: ferrari, fiat
GM: cadillac, chevrolet,

please confirm these, correct them etc

TransAm2001: SEAT are available in mexico, and almost all their models are here, except for the ibiza cupra.
I don't know a thing about importing a seat to mexico, but here to import a car from USA or canada, it must have at least 50 or 51% (I'm not sure if it's more) of parts made in the NAFTA, so maybe you'll need to pay more taxes for a seat than a jetta

Correct, VW+Audi = VAG

BMW - Also own the Mini brand which I think they bought from Rover, and I think they also own the Land Rover Brand now.

Rover (who, it pains me to say as an Englishman, should just give up and down tools) own MG but MG's are now just rebadged Rovers other than a cabriolet they make which is ok, but I'd sooner drive an MR2 or MX5 Miata.

Ford - Mercury and Lincoln are ford spin offs like Lexus are mostly rebadged Toyotas. Premium branding only seems to work in the US - see my comment about MG/Rover, above - that says it all really.

Toyota - Lexus
Nissan - Infiniti
Honda - Acura

The French Peugeot Citroen group are called PSA

GM also own Pontiac... :lol: and Vauxhall (UK) Opel (europe) Holden (AUS)

That's all I'm sure about.

@antonioledesma: I was enquiring about importing a SEAT FROM Mexico TO the US - they don't sell them here - and if I did I would want the Leon Cupra (car for the wife), which you're now going to tell me you don't have in the Mexican SEAT range anyway, right?

[RC45]

Although Ford - aquired Lincoln then created Mercury as mid-tier brand... so HEnry Ford not only perfected the production line - but the modern Auto-company co-brand as well.. ;)

[antonioledesma]

TransAm2001: sorry if I didn't give myself clear, I understood you, but this isn't the subject

another yes, the leon cupra is in the mexican range between the whooping $297,514 and $305,326 mexican pesos, at 11.53 pesos per dolar... you'll pay 25803 and 26481 us dollars, depending on the color you choose.

for that money, plus taxes for customs, importing, etc. you'll like more a standard bmw

[TransAm]

Fair comment, I have a tendency to threadjack...As for those prices It looks like the wife will be getting a Focus ST170 or 2 year old WRX then!

Thanks for the info, by the way :)

[Apac102]

alright good to know. thanks. What about the other companies that make up audi. Would you consider them part of VAG.........INA?? Im talking about Horch, Audi,....and the other two...I forgot their names

[gottacatchup]

Ford: Jaguar, Volvo, Mazda, Lincoln, Mercury, Aston Martin
BMW: Rolls Royce, Cooper, Land Rover
VAG: VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Lamborgini, Bentley
Renault-Nissan: Renault, Nissan, Infinity
Daimler Chrysler: Mercedes Benz, Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, "Hyundai", Mitsubishi, Mclaren(although i think this is just a partnership)
Peugot-Citroen: Peugot, Citroen
Fiat: Ferrari, Fiat
GM: Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Pontiac, Hummer, Saab
Honda: Honda, Acura
Toyota: Toyota, Lexus

I believe that's everyone, if i'm wrong on some feel free to correct but i'm pretty sure on all

[Regie]

Carlos Ghosn practically saved the company.
Hell yeah.

Carlos Ghosn aka 'Le Cost Killer' did save Nissan.

They were up the proverbial shitter with massive debts and poor manufacturing efficiency. He walked in alone (unlike the German execs who marched in to save Mitsubishi, unsuccessfully) and has largely achieved his goals of getting Nissan back to black (profit). It was a huge challenge as he took on the Japanese business culture (Keiretsu (http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/~evans/teach363/keiretsu/keiretsu.htm)) and made Nissan a desirable and profitable brand again.

He will be leaving Nissan sometime next year (IIRC) to take over Louis Schweitzer's position at Renault.

The man has done very little wrong both at Nissan and prior to that at Michelin (north & sth America). I think of him as one of the great CEOs/business leaders of our era.


I say Renault practically owns Nissan, although it probably is a partnership. Nissan's president/CEO Carlos Ghosn is a Renault asset
I remember reading that Renault's stake in Nissane was around the 37-39% mark. This was a while ago and the percentage could have changed.

edit:
Re: Who owns what marques
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/brands.htm
http://www.oligopolywatch.com/2003/05/17.html
http://carscarscars.blogs.com/index/2004/03/who_owns_who.html

[Gimp]

Great list gottacatchup, but what about subaru and opel?

[Regie]

Great list gottacatchup, but what about subaru and opel?
Both under the GM (General Motors) wing.

[Paco]

Wrong. Land Rover belongs to Ford now. However, you will find BMW-engines in the Land Rover. If I am not mistaken, BMW still supplies V8-engines for the Range Rover and Discovery.
Also Volvo belongs to Ford.

Also, I thought Daimler-Chrysler was about to boot Mitsubishi.

Fiat also owns Alfa Romeo (in strong partnership with GM) and Lancia, and Ferrari ownsMaserati. The partnership of Alfa with GM sees to it that Opel and Saab will equip their cars with Alfa diesel engines.

Renault owns also a small company called Matra (who build the Espace and the now-discontinued Avantime).

Porsche has a strong partnership with VAG -> first Beetle was developped by Ferdinand Porsche and the 924 and 944 were developped with Audi technology. Not to forget of course the Cayenne-Touareg alliance.

[Regie]

Renault owns also a small company called Matra (who build the Espace and the now-discontinued Avantime).


The automotive part of Matra (Mécanique Avion Traction) is currently owned by Pininfarina (that is the design, & prototyping arm). I don't think Renault ever had a piece of Matra , just supplied them with engines and also contracted Matra to build niche cars.

It used to be part of the Lagardère group , a massive French conglomerate with interests in media/publishing (they own Car & Driver), aerospace, defence and automotive (not sure if still correct since they've sold Matra).

[Paco]

I stand corrected: Matra and Renault have a strong partnership. For the jointly developed Espace Renault brought in the design, engines, promotion and sales, whilst Matra did the development and production.

Renault does own Dacia though, a Romanian based brand. They rebadge and modify their smaller cars (Clio) for sale in Eastern Europe and Turkey.

Also not forget the co-operation in the early '90 with Williams (Clio Williams) and TWR (Clio V6).

[Regie]

You a bit of a Reno-phile Paco?

...Renault does own Dacia though, a Romanian based brand.

I totally (or was it conveniently ;)) forgot about Dacia.

If Renault Aus ever brings the Clio V6 out here, my money is waiting to be spent...

[TransAm]

That Dacia comment reminds me - rebadged FIATS are sold in Turkey as TOFAS - cant remember what it stands for but something along the lines of TUrkish State Auto Company (but in Turkish, of course)

http://img8.exs.cx/img8/1416/11274.jpg

[Paco]

You a bit of a Reno-phile Paco?

Not specifically, Régie. Although they made some splendid cars like the Alpines, R5 Turbo and Clio V6.

I just have a broad interest in automobiles, as do most people here, I guess :)

[Regie]

Not specifically, Régie. Although they made some splendid cars like the Alpines, R5 Turbo and Clio V6.
You are saying all the right things there mate, in my books your tops! :D

Should see the crap I cop from locals (Aussies) when I( mention the word Renault. They look at me like Im a leper!

[Paco]

@Régie: http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Dumb_And_Dumber=austria.wav
(always wanted to do that with an Aussie :D )

Keep up the good work for us downunder there 8)

[gr]

As far as I know VAG does *not* stand for "Volkswagen Audi Group" like some people in this thread claim. I believe it stands for "Volkswagen AG" (AG is the german version of Ltd/Inc), cause it isn't in a partnership. VW owns Audi.

http://www.volkswagen-ir.de/uploads/pics/groupstr_d.jpg

Also, about Nissan and Renault, Nissan holds 15% of the Renault shares, while Renault holds 44% of the Nissan shares.

[HeilSvenska]

Guys, wouldn't it make sense to call it Volkswagen Automobil Gruppe?

BMW still supplies V8-engines for the Range Rover and Discovery.
will be discontinued with the new Disco and Rangey will use Jaguar V8 soon. What does GmbH stand for though? Corporation?

[TransAm]

Guys, wouldn't it make sense to call it Volkswagen Automobil Gruppe?

BMW still supplies V8-engines for the Range Rover and Discovery.
will be discontinued with the new Disco and Rangey will use Jaguar V8 soon. What does GmbH stand for though? Corporation?

GmbH - GmbH stands for "Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung" and is comparable to a Inc. It is a company in which all shareholders are physical people and only up to a certain number (if I remember correctly it is around 25 people). Where it is different to other types of corporations is that each person is only liable for the amount they invested in the company. That means that they're not liable with their personal assets. Which is the case in other types of corporations in Germany. These type of companies can never be public. Each new shareholder as be approved by all the other shareholders.

Comparable to the LLC in north America is the AG "Aktien Gesellschaft" in Germany. These companies shares are being traded on the stock exchange and anybody can buy shares. Shares can be owned either by a private person or by other companies. These are public companies and must publish their financial results as well as organize open shareholder meetings.

And if you're still awake after that most interesting description, here's the keys to a nice new Phaeton. :wink:

[Regie]

Carlos Ghosn practically saved the company.

Well, according to thie article below, Nissan have moved up to #2 , not a bad recovery.

http://www.iht.com/articles/536975.html
Nissan, an affiliate of Renault, overtook Honda Motor as Japan's second-largest automaker this year. It is aiming to increase sales by 11 percent this fiscal year with the new models. The chief executive, Carlos Ghosn, is closing in on his three-year plan to lift annual unit sales by one million vehicles.

[Wutputt]

Maybe after all the corrections it's time to have a new overview:

BMW Group: BMW, Mini, Rolls Royce

DaimlerChrysler: Mercedes, Maybach, smart, Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth, Jeep, Mitsubishi, McLaren (Not 100% sure about the last one, I don't know how much shares Mercedes has)
(AMG is nowadays fully integrated into Mercedes)

Fiat Auto: Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Ferrari and Maserati
(there are some connections with GM)

Ford Motor Company: Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda and PAG (Jaguar, Volvo, Land Rover, Aston Martin)

General Motors: Buick, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, GMC, Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, Saturn, Isuzu, Suzuki, Subaru, Saab, Hummer, Daewoo, SsangYong

Honda Motor Company: Honda and Acura

Hyundai Motor Company: Hyundai and Kia

MG-Rover: MG and Rover

Porsche AG: only Porsche, but strong connections with VAG

PSA: Peugeot and Citroën

Renault-Nissan: Renault, Nissan, Infiniti, Samsung Motors, Dacia
(Renault currently still owns Alpine, but that brand is death)

Toyota Motor Company: Toyota, Lexus, Daihatsu en Scion

Volkswagen AG (VAG): Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti

and then there are all the 'small' brands, like Lotus, TVR, Noble, Donkervoort, Spyker, Wiesmann, Tata Motors, Alpina (in Europe it is nowadays listed as a brand, not as a tuner), Lada, etc.


Corrections are always welcome.


@ Paco: Isn't Matra death nowadays? Because the current Espace IV is build by Renault itself and the Avantime went out of production. Or does the racing department still live on?

[TransAm]

Good work Wutputt - a comprehensive summary there.

As for your comment about Matra, yes I think their auto manufacturing activity is more or less over these days. The Matra company has a lot of activity in the munitions, missile and aerospace industry however.

[Attie]

audi and VW form the VAG(volkswagen audi group) don't they?

why don't we put here all car manufacturers and their brands and others manufacturers they own?
such as:
ford: jaguar, volvo, mazda, their home brands as lincoln, mercury,
bmw: rolls royce and I don't remember more
vag: vw, audi, seat, skoda, lambo, bentley
renault-nissan: renault and nissan (duuh :roll: )
daimler chrysler: mercedes benz, chrysler, dodge, jeep, "hyundai", mitsubishi
the french group of peugeot and citroen
fiat: ferrari, fiat
GM: cadillac, chevrolet,



FIAT: +Alfa Romeo, Lancia
GM: +Daewoo

[Attie]

Sorry I've missed Wutputt's reply :(

[Paco]

Wutputt, sorry to come back at your question so late, but it seems that Matra is still very much alive these days. They have been bought by Pininfarina SpA and are now called Matra Automobile Engineering. What they will do exactly is still clouded, as their site is still under construction.


I would like to add some important partnerships:
- GM/Opel with Renault in developing the Movano/Master Vivaro/Traffic

- Ford with VAG in the joint development of the Ford Galaxy/Seat Alhambra/Volkswagen Sharan. Here you see the Ford with the 2.3 V5 VAG engine

- Extensive platform sharing of the Peugeot 806, Fiat Ulysse, Citroen Synergie and Lancia Zeta. Also the Peugeot Expert, Citroen Relay and Fiat Scudo. Actually, the co-operation with FIAT is a recurring event.

Then you have a whole plethora of historic co-operations like GM & Lotus, Citroen & Maserati (Citroen actually owned Maserati for a while and placed one of their engines in the lovely SM), Cosworth (which is more a tuner/sportscar builder) who supplied a bevy of big names: Mercedes (190 16V), Opel/Vauxhal (C20XE/GSI-engine), Ford (Sierra, Escort Cosworth), etc.

You could make the list even more extensive if you would list the small manufacturers who bought engines and technology from the big guys: Mercedes+Zonda, Koenigsegg/Spyker/Donkervoort+Audi, Noble+Ford, Iso Grifo+Chevrolet, Pantera+Ford, Lotus+Toyota, Wiessmann/Alpina+BMW, etc. etc.

[Wutputt]

Thanks for the clarification about Matra.

There are some other important partnerships:
- PSA and Ford for some of their diesel engines.
- PSA and Toyota for sharing the same platform and even more for their new little cars

Cosworth is nowadays again hot news, since Ford is now selling Cosworth Racing. Cosworth Technology was already sold a few years ago (don't know the exact year, it's 1999 or 2000 I think) to Audi.

[greg.little]

I believe BMW bought Land Rover with the Rover group, and sold it to Ford having plundered the 4X4 system technology for the X5. Not convinced Volvo are owned by Ford but the rest seem spot on.

The car manufacturers all seem to have fingers in each others pies and share components, e.g. my wifes Volvo 940 has a Renault 25 engine with a turbo bolted on.

There was a chart produced in Top Gear magazine a few years ago that showed all the complex ownerships, interactions, technology deals etc. It looked like one of those management charts where everyone nods and goes hmmm then walks away without a clue.

[Wutputt]

I believe BMW bought Land Rover with the Rover group, and sold it to Ford having plundered the 4X4 system technology for the X5. Not convinced Volvo are owned by Ford but the rest seem spot on.
The 4wd system of the pre-facelift X5 is different of that of the Land Rover Discovery and the previous and current Range Rover. And the xDrive 4WD system of the current X5 and X3 is totally different from Land Rover's 4WD systems.

If you want to be convinced Ford owns Volvo, you may check www.ford.com ;)

[greg.little]

I stand corrected

[ZfrkS62]

The car manufacturers all seem to have fingers in each others pies and share components, e.g. my wifes Volvo 940 has a Renault 25 engine with a turbo bolted on.

There was a chart produced in Top Gear magazine a few years ago that showed all the complex ownerships, interactions, technology deals etc. It looked like one of those management charts where everyone nods and goes hmmm then walks away without a clue.


If i remember right i think the only company BMW has anything to do with anymore is Rolls-Royce which they have owned for decades. They used GM's automatic transmissions for awhle but the deal recently ended leaving only ZF to supply their automatics. Thats the only thing i'm aware of. Am i missing anything?

[Wutputt]

BMW still owns Mini and they used to own MG-Rover and Land Rover, like greg.little said. Btw, BMW owns Rolls-Royce not for decades. Only since 1 January 2003 BMW owns the hole company(*), if we're talking about cars. When talking about RR aircraft engines, it's a different case.

*: I though they already bought the trademark in 1998 when VW bought Bentley but also wanted to buy RR

[ZfrkS62]

i forgot about mini :oops: I could have sworn the owned RR alot longer than that, but i guess i could have gotten mixed up because of the aircraft engines.

how long ago did this Rover ownership and selling take place?

[Wutputt]

In 1994 BMW bought Rover including MG, Mini and Land Rover. But the marriage went sour in 2000. MG and Rover were sold to a British investment group, Phoenix. Land Rover was sold to Ford, who positioned ir within PAG and BMW kept Mini.

[ZfrkS62]

ah...ok. makes sense now. Kinda glad Mini is the only one they kept.

[Paco]

Don't forget the BMW 4.4 V8 in the Morgan Aero 8, which is a vital part of the car.
Also Wiesmann relies heavily on BMW-technology and are more than just modifiers.
The infamous McLaren F1 of course sported one of the best engines ever. And that was a BMW also...

Furthermore, there are more car manufactureres like Wiesman that rely on one particular marque. Rhinspeed uses Porsche technology, Abarth was an independent car builder that did a lot for FIAT later on and Ssang Yong builds all it's (ugly) SUV's on Mercedes technology. Then we also have Indian-based Mahindra which incidently belongs to DaimlerChrysler and is based on Willys Jeep technology.

Lastly, you have independent car builders like Pinifarina, Guigaro and Bertone that work for several car manufacturers.

After this there is an incredible amount of 'one-offs' that rely on others technology. Some special cars like the BMW Glas or the weird-looking Porsche Sbarro. Others were just rebadged cars from other marques (so no in-company rebadging) like the illustrous SAAB 600 (Lancia Delta).

[Wutputt]

You have loads of connections and part/engine buying stuff in the automotive industry. For instance Mini uses (modified) Chrysler petrol engines and Toyota diesel engines (the next Mini will use PSA diesels). Lotus used to use Rover K-series engines for their Elise, now it are Toyota engines and the transmission of the Esprit always was a (modified) R25 transmission. And we can keep going on for a long time without even mentioning automotive supplier relations.

[Paco]

Mini getting PSA-diesels?

I remember reading something about that. However, You'd think they could use the BMW-diesel for that. Or is the 2-litre too big?
PSA delivers well-performing little diesels, though.

My god, where will we all find these engines then? Ford, Mazda, Peugeot, Citroen, Mini. What about the small Mitsubishi and Forfour Smart? What diesels would they get? Also PSA? DaimlerChrysler has only the 1.7 CDI. Maybe too big?

[oldsnail]

NISSAN:
Owned by Renault (France) - 44.4 %
Subsidiary Infiniti (Brand name)
Nissan Diesel (truck)