View Full Version : Street Version Vs. Racing Version
FordGTGuy
08-09-2004, 12:59 PM
when cars are converted do they always take the specs down by restricting the engine? Or just most of the time? and have they ever changed the strucutre of a car for street use?
mindgam3
08-09-2004, 01:49 PM
you're not being too clear....
99% of the time road cars are the basis for race cars, not the other way round.
They don't take a race engine and try to make it street legal, they take the road engine and get as much power out of it by changing and improving as many parts as the rules for that particular racing championship lets them.
Alot of the time you see race cars and they're actually nothing like the road car except the body shell.
I hope this is what u meant
666fast
08-09-2004, 02:20 PM
Like mandgam3 said, you need to elaborate a bit.
Most racecars are built from road versions. There are exceptions though, like the Saleen S7. Built as a race car then retuned for road use. The onyl reason for a road going S7 is to meet the homoloation rules.
Every now and then, a company takes a racing engine and detunes it for a street car. The Carrera Gt's engine was a race engine with no home. (Thank you Cayenne :x ) The Ferrari F50's engine is a detuned Formula One engine.
and have they ever changed the strucutre of a car for street use?
I honestly don't know, but if a car was designed as a race car first, then most likely. Depends on the series the car is running in.
mindgam3
08-09-2004, 02:23 PM
Every now and then, a company takes a racing engine and detunes it for a street car. The Carrera Gt's engine was a race engine with no home. (Thank you Cayenne :x ) The Ferrari F50's engine is a detuned Formula One engine.
Yeah but both the actual cars - the CGT and F50 were both built for the road, not too race
racer_f50
08-09-2004, 03:00 PM
Most racecars are built from road versions. There are exceptions though, like the Saleen S7. Built as a race car then retuned for road use. The onyl reason for a road going S7 is to meet the homoloation rules.
thats not what Steve Saleen said. he said they were developing it as a Road car first and primarily, then some teams got interested in the project and they built some race versions for them. i'm sure the race cars were built first, but the intention was for a road car. this is what i remember from that MSN interview video.
sameerrao
08-09-2004, 03:10 PM
when cars are converted do they always take the specs down by restricting the engine? Or just most of the time? and have they ever changed the strucutre of a car for street use?
I assume you mean start with a race car and then make it into a streetable car. It takes more than engine adjustments
There are several things required
- Add catalytic converters and relevant equipment, street legal mufflers
- Add airbags and required safety equipment
- Make sure the cars lights are at legal heights (especially in the US)
- Add comfort items - A/c, radio, carpets. noise related insulation, etc. add roadworthy instrumentation - fuel gauge
- De-tune engine for longer life and make it capable of taking 91 octane. Also perhaps add torque at lower rpms to make it more streetable. Make it capable of handling traffic jams
- Add ground clearance to avoid grounding the car
There are several things to be done. In many cases there is very little in common with the road car and race car from which it originated...
From a structural standpoint, they may remove the roll cage in interest of more interior room. Reduce the gas tank size, add a trunk. Therefore quite a few changes...
sameerrao
08-09-2004, 03:11 PM
Every now and then, a company takes a racing engine and detunes it for a street car. The Carrera Gt's engine was a race engine with no home. (Thank you Cayenne :x ) The Ferrari F50's engine is a detuned Formula One engine.
Yeah but both the actual cars - the CGT and F50 were both built for the road, not too race
Yeah but he was specifically talking about the engine and not the whole car ...
mindgam3
08-09-2004, 03:56 PM
hmmm i can't think of a whole production car that started life as a race car
sameerrao
08-09-2004, 04:09 PM
hmmm i can't think of a whole production car that started life as a race car
There are not many
Daur 962
Porsche GT1
Ferrari 250 GTO or LM (was first a race car but then was used on the normal roads afterwards)
Like mandgam3 said, you need to elaborate a bit.
Most racecars are built from road versions. There are exceptions though, like the Saleen S7. Built as a race car then retuned for road use. The onyl reason for a road going S7 is to meet the homoloation rules.
Every now and then, a company takes a racing engine and detunes it for a street car. The Carrera Gt's engine was a race engine with no home. (Thank you Cayenne :x ) The Ferrari F50's engine is a detuned Formula One engine.
and have they ever changed the strucutre of a car for street use?
I honestly don't know, but if a car was designed as a race car first, then most likely. Depends on the series the car is running in.
i know nothing of the cayenne Problem? What exactly happended? Also Steve Saleen is my hero.
sameerrao
08-09-2004, 05:34 PM
Like mandgam3 said, you need to elaborate a bit.
Most racecars are built from road versions. There are exceptions though, like the Saleen S7. Built as a race car then retuned for road use. The onyl reason for a road going S7 is to meet the homoloation rules.
Every now and then, a company takes a racing engine and detunes it for a street car. The Carrera Gt's engine was a race engine with no home. (Thank you Cayenne :x ) The Ferrari F50's engine is a detuned Formula One engine.
and have they ever changed the strucutre of a car for street use?
I honestly don't know, but if a car was designed as a race car first, then most likely. Depends on the series the car is running in.
i know nothing of the cayenne Problem? What exactly happended? Also Steve Saleen is my hero.
Porsche had a limited budget which could cover funding the Cayenne development or racing in Le Mans. They chose the Cayenne...
Awwwwwww God damnit that is not very Porsche like at all.
666fast
08-09-2004, 06:03 PM
Awwwwwww God damnit that is not very Porsche like at all.
Thats what I said. Whatever though, it's pumping millions into Porsche. Just gotta hope they don't lose their reputation is all. Some say it's already gone.
i'm sure the race cars were built first, but the intention was for a road car.
The race cars were built first. The S7's were being penalized for a while because of they hadn't sold any street S7's yet. Not sure what the situation is now.
IgotWRXed
08-09-2004, 07:43 PM
Ferrari F50 GT :D :D
actually, probably not, i just like posting pictures of it and looking at it :lol: :lol: :twisted:
http://www.theautoappraiser.com/97%20F50%20GT%20RF.jpg
http://www.theautoappraiser.com/1997FerrariF50GT.JPG
http://www.theautoappraiser.com/97%20F50%20GT%20rear.JPG
when cars are converted do they always take the specs down by restricting the engine? Or just most of the time? and have they ever changed the strucutre of a car for street use?
These are 2 different questions. The answer to both of them is: Yes.
In some race classes you'll find (road) cars with detuned engines. At Le Mans, for example, they restrict cars which haven't met homologation requirements (+producing a certain amount of roadcars). Same goes for GT races. In the Netherlands we have the Dutch Supercar Challenge (DSC) where restriction is based on hp/kg. So, in one particular race class you'd have E36 M3's driving around with around 250 hp, wilst their street output goes to 286/320 hp.
The second question is about converting race cars for legal road use. That question has been answered. Most cars don't drive around with a roll cage, for example.
IgotWRXed
08-09-2004, 07:51 PM
well take WRC for example, they limit the cars to 300hp. i think the subaru WR1 makes more power, as does the Mitsu MR..........i think. so *technically* those would need WRC restrictor plates, but officially, those cars would still get their asses handed to them :lol:
What is funny of the Ferrari F50, is that it sports technology that has been banned from F1 some time ago.
Anyone care to guess what? (or knows the answer?)
T-Bird
08-09-2004, 07:53 PM
well look at the CTS-V in SCCA they actually restricted the racing engine because it was too powerful for the class when all it was is the standard CTS-V engine and they use 90% the same suspension and the same frame just added a roll cage. then they just gutted the car and put in all the little things to make it a race car.
IgotWRXed
08-09-2004, 07:54 PM
What is funny of the Ferrari F50, is that it sports technology that has been banned from F1 some time ago.
Anyone care to guess what? (or knows the answer?)
launch control brotha :D :D
X-ale
08-09-2004, 07:58 PM
hmmm i can't think of a whole production car that started life as a race car
There are not many
Daur 962
Porsche GT1
Ferrari 250 GTO or LM (was first a race car but then was used on the normal roads afterwards)
The GT1 is a 911 first
IgotWRXed
08-09-2004, 08:00 PM
i think he meant the GT series of the 911's
What is funny of the Ferrari F50, is that it sports technology that has been banned from F1 some time ago.
Anyone care to guess what? (or knows the answer?)
launch control brotha :D :D
That's not entirely correct. Launch control made it into F1 and stayed there for quite some time before it was abolished.
No, it's a technology that was only applied once (I think) and then was immediately abolished for being too 'good' (and too dangerous?).
IgotWRXed
08-09-2004, 08:51 PM
nitrous? i have no clue. maybe something to do with aerodynamics?
nitrous? i have no clue. maybe something to do with aerodynamics?
Getting closer 8)
sentra_dude
08-10-2004, 12:19 AM
A system of ducts and fans that provide 'active aerodynamics', that's what the nostrils on the F50 are for ;).
I can give a more in depth answer also...
gottacatchup
08-10-2004, 01:13 AM
Well the GT40 was orginally designed for the sole purpose of winning lemans but they had to make a road version of it to be legal. So i guess that's one road car completely based on a race car.
The biggest example of a car having to be detuned for race use I can think of would be the Mclaren F1 GT.
FordGTGuy
08-10-2004, 10:07 AM
could you call the Ford GT a race car that went street. The GT-40 the race car the 2005 Ford GT the street car.
A system of ducts and fans that provide 'active aerodynamics', that's what the nostrils on the F50 are for ;).
I can give a more in depth answer also...
Correctomundo!
This was used on the infamous Brabham-Alfa BT46B:
The 1978 Swedish GP will remembered for just one thing. The race itself being rather uneventful, it was the winning car that created its own footnote in history by dominating the meeting, thus to great lengths contributing to its uneventfulness in the first place. Responsible for this overwhelming coup was some clever thinking by Brabham's Gordon Murray, who was trying to eclipse Colin Chapman's ground effect invention on the Lotus 79, the skirted car that had swept the front row since its debut at Zolder. Center of the BT46B concept was a huge fan taking ground effect to a higher level (at least engineering-wise) by pulling a vacuum from under the bottom of the car, thereby creating an enormous amount of downforce. From its skirts up the car stuck on the track like glue, allowing the reigning champion to win conclusively. Immediately after, the fan was deemed illegal, contravening the rules on moving aerodynamical devices, although the Brabham team claimed its use was primarily for cooling - which wasn't far from the truth, actually. In typical FIA style the win was allowed to stand, however, which cost Arrows their chance of victory in its debut season.
Thanks to: http://8w.forix.com/fancar.html
Okay, to go further off-topic: who can name another technology in F1 that was too good and therefore quickly dropped ?
sameerrao
08-10-2004, 05:11 PM
1. Active ride height
2. Brake torque transfer - used by Mclaren some years back
1. Active ride height
2. Brake torque transfer - used by Mclaren some years back
3. 4x4
4. CVT transmission (Williams)
T-Bird
08-10-2004, 07:30 PM
could you call the Ford GT a race car that went street. The GT-40 the race car the 2005 Ford GT the street car.
NO
FordGTGuy
08-10-2004, 07:50 PM
why not yes it took over 40 years but its still the same car.
There were road versions of the GT40 back in time too... The GT40 is a car, the GT another :D
sentra_dude
08-10-2004, 10:23 PM
why not yes it took over 40 years but its still the same car.
LOL!
The original GT40 and the new Ford GT have very little in common, beyond looks and layout.
GT40: N/A, built & designed in England (before Shelby got into the picture), overall a very small car, no a/c or driver comforts, uncomfortable and very cramped (the pedals are offset, and its hard to get into), & its a pure racing car
Ford GT: S/C, built & designed in America, more like a 11/10ths scale GT40, its taller, wider and longer, has a/c and other things that make it a modern car, has room enough even for tall people, and its built to be driven on the road
why not yes it took over 40 years but its still the same car.
LOL!
The original GT40 and the new Ford GT have very little in common, beyond looks and layout.
GT40: N/A, built & designed in England (before Shelby got into the picture), overall a very small car, no a/c or driver comforts, uncomfortable and very cramped (the pedals are offset, and its hard to get into), & its a pure racing car
Yep - and a common misconception is that the GT40 won because of the British roots.. ;) - the GT40 may have been "designed and built" in England on existing engine, transmission and chassis work - but it was only after it was brought back to the USA and redone from the ground up with new engine, chassis and transmission that it was able to win everything it entered and go to Le Mans and win it's way into the anals of history... :D
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