Want to alter handling

[coombsie66]

I lowered my car 35mm on replacement springs, but standard dampers and it now understeers 2 much. It is a ford focus which are renound for their neutral handling. Now its just not as progressive.

I wus wondering do u think alterations to the camber settings on the front would be worthwhile, and how far can u go without altering the tyre wear ridiculous amounts!
Any1 else had these problems wiv their FWD car??

[The Devils Bravo]

Hi Mate..

You say you just had your focus lowered but only doing the springs.. not dampers and that should be fine.. although Dampers as well would be the best overall solution.. but one thing to check is they adjusted the camber when they fitted the springs as this should have happened.. and it should be handling a lot better.. maybe worth asking the garage for a report on what they did.. as its not a case of just changing springs they have to reset all setting to the new springs.. i.e. camber / toe in/out should all be straight.. if its still crap then they check to make sure they deffinatly are the correct spring for the car and model..

[maalox]

You ideally should have a matching set of dampers for your lowering springs since 35mm is a relatively large drop in ride height.

I think tire wear becomes extreme after around 3 degrees of camber, but that's a very fuzzy figure in my memory. It could be way less.

[coombsie66]

Cheers 4 the replies guys, but by saying ive lowered my car 35mm, i mean 'I actually fitted the springs on my ramp', dont worry they are fitted properly, i know what i am doin and had help of the mechanic from my dads buisness.
I thought that the camber would not vary drastically wiv a 35mm drop, and as the tyre wear is still fairly even across the tyre, im assuming there hasnt been a huge change.
I dont want 2 go and spunk 300 od quid on new dampers, when my friend bought matching springs and dampers for his car when he lowered it, and they didnt seem to make a difference in the handeling, compared to his previous car (same model) which was lowered more on stock dampers.

Does anyone have a ford focus who has fiddled about with their camber settings?????

[Anonymous]

No Focus but Ive fiddled with loads of front ends, Ill try and explain it as simply as possible but its a many varied subject.....

Geometry, when you lower the car in front did you lower the rear a equal amount? If not it threw the angle of the king pin or spindles pivot off.
Also, depending on the design of the suspension your car uses, it will alter several things from lowering it. Caster, camber, inclination of the spindle, are a few, but the last is the most important as it causes the bottom of the tire to kick out slighty and pull the top inwards. This helps ofset the cars tendency to try and peel the tire off the rim as it corners hard.
It will make a car push if its set wrong, basicly the spindles king pin or pivot angle or strut assembly has the ability to tilt fore or aft a few degrees. This makes the tire tilt as it turns from the straight ahead position, Its hard to describe, but it can be altered on some cars by shims on the lower or upper control arm where it attaches to the car if it has two attachment points to the car, if its single point on the frame and FWD I'm not sure how its acomplished as I know mostly large cars which all use double ended arms on the frame with shims in either the top control arm. or on Fords theres a threaded rod that is used to locate the lower control arm to the frame forming a triangulation between the pivot point of the arm and the outer end of the lower control arm, adjusting the rods legnth puts the lower spindle (usually ball joint) either ahead or behind the upper (ball joint) on the spindle where it attaches to the upper control arm. If the upper is just slightly rearwaed in respect to the lower (on the right side of car) the spindle will rise slightly in a arc as its turned to the left making the tire kick outwards on the bottom, turning right pulls the tire in on the bottom but the inside tire isnt affected by the cars trying to pull the tire off the rim as it is on the outside is, also the inside has consideratly less wieght so its not as crucial.


I hope your thourghly confused now LOL, its really simple, look at a GoKarts front wheels and youll see whats happening by leaning the (actually its called a king pin that attaches the spindle to the frame) spindle to the rear (the spindle on a kart is the verticle pivot where the axle connects to so it can turn back and forth) that vertical post will be tilted towards the back of the kart a slight bit.
A car is the same just alot more complicated due to its suspension and many , many differnt ways to achieve the same effect.
Dam its been mucho years since I thought about this stuff, I learned about the ins and outs racing sprint cars, on them its so critical if its not kicking the bottom of the tire out enough it will rip the tire off the rim or worse pull the rim OVER the LUG NUTS!!
We ran quite a lean angle when the tire was turned to the left the top of the tire was an inch or more in and the bottom out by that much! Made for great turn in but crappy straight line tracking LOL.
Oh well, theres a heck of alot to think about when altering any of the original settings. to lift my truck 2 inches properly it needs new upper control arms and spindles, all it does is change the hight of the axel on the spindle but doing that messes with the drive shafts (4x4 indepent front sus) and a shitload of other components, the proper kit is like $1800 !!! and it only gains 2 inches 3 if you really push it but it wears tires set too high. So I left it stock lift which drags on everything but I'd prefer it to handle like it does than loose alot of cornering ability if I raised it.
The Z-71's all came with Bilstiens so it really dose good for a big fulsize truck, especially with that monster 502 alloy marine engine I put in hehe!
It actually weights less than the iron 5.7 !!

[gis]

congrats on that KH,u took some time doin that

[coombsie66]

Fuckin hell KH, i take it ur finding typing a breeze now!!!!!
i get wat ur saying, mine is a mcpherson strut at the front, and independant at the rear, from what i can see, it appears that the camber of the fronts have stayed the same, whereas the rears used 2 have a slight positive, and now have a slight negative.
This is why i think it now has more grip at the rear than it used to, therefore more push on.
I think it is now less progressive snap oversteer due to the dampers being not fully suited to this ride height and the spring being a fuck load stiffer.
I dont really want to put positive camber on the rear again, so i think i want a tad more negative on the front, but i believe this will b a pain in the ass 2 do, and i plan on upping my wheel size soon, so it'll probably all change again!!!!!!!!!
Nyways cheers 4 ur help Krazy, its always appreciated, i'll go and bury my head in my hanes manual 4 a few hours and try and figure out wat the hell 2 do!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Np at all, If you lowered the front and not the rear, in theory if you dropped the rear an equal amount it should be very close to original but stiffer.


Question, why is it stiffer? Differnt springs? Or cut a coil?

A intersting thing about springs, most peeps think if they cut 1 coil off a spring it will be #1 lower by whatever hieght they removed, and #2 softer, which isnt the case. Cutting a coil spring actually makes it stiffer. Reason its shorter in legnth. A steel bar 1/2 inch diameter 10 feet long (straight) will be quite flexible if picked up an one end right?
Whereas a 1 foot long steel rod of the same metal will be dam near impossible to bend.
I know some peeps are going to say thats alot of shit, but it really does apply even when the steel rod hab been wound into a coil spring.
Cut a coil stiffen the spring and depending how you cut it and annealed it afterwards you may have screwed the spring rate so bad that its hopeless to try to use them.
Cutting generates a fair amount of heat, heat can change the temper of the steel.
Best bet, always use new springs for the application rather than cutting.

[coombsie66]

Dont worry Krazy, there was no way in hell i wus gunna cut my springs!!! Ive heard many nitemate storiers about doin that stuff!
I bought replacement, SPAX lowering springs, that lower the car 35mm at the back and front. They r a stiffer spring rate as well, they are good quality, progressively wound (on rears only) and are a reputable manufacturer.
I believe that the camber has altered because of the difference in suspension mechanism, front to back, the front is a simple mcpherson strut, but the back is ford's 'control blade' mechanism, purely from sight i can see that there is now a very slight negative camber on the rears compared to a slight positive, before the car was lowered.
I think im just gunna have 2 have a talk wiv sum blokes in allignement shops, and then see if i can do nything about it, or wether im gunna have 2 fork out more ££££££££!!???
I mean, dont get me wrong, the car still handles very well, and turn in is better than standard, its just on the limit it does tend to push on. As my friends saxo is one of the most tail happy FWD cars ive ever ridden in, it is probably excentuating the fact that mine understeers.

[Anonymous]

Good Job Coombsie! I only did that bit on cutting as a "just in case" ... in this case it wasnt needed, which I'm glad of. Still it's a little known fact about how springs work, one of them no fekkin way trips but yep its true!

Glad to know there's another "reader" in the place. No better way to learn how to do something right than read as much shit as ya can handle on the subject!

[espen]

Are you sure theres not any sort of controlled compliance or passive steer at the re<ar end of the Focus? (Not sure myself but both my old Corrado and 306 had such systems) Then basically since your tail end thinks you are mid-corner, it is trying to stabilize the car by ruinning toe-in at the rear :)

Other than that, ride height alone should not affact the general attitude of the car, but since the Focus has some pretty good stuff up front it might be that since the springs and dampers are not matched, grip levels at turn in differ front to rear?

[graywolf624]

If you lowered the car you should always get a good Alignment done, your camber and caster will be off curtosy of the lowering job. (My numbers varied quite a bit, actually turning my camber from -.5 to +.3). The worst part is if you lower your car to far you will need camber caster plates because you won't be able to adjust far enough. In terms of handling, the big issue with whether you need to change dampers should be whether you want better handling then you already have achieved and if the car is bottoming out or hitting the bump stop alot.

Good luck with the car.

[RacingManiac]

I'd imagine though, the easiest mod to get some of that neutral-ness back is to get thicker rear anti-roll bar. More than anything the effect if more noticable...

[ericgt]

I'd imagine though, the easiest mod to get some of that neutral-ness back is to get thicker rear anti-roll bar. More than anything the effect if more noticable...

That's what I was going to post. Eibach makes a 1 inch bar for it, the on the FR200.

added: Something you might try first. On my Mustang I put a spring clamp. Basicly 2 bolts and 2 metal saddles that keeps 1 coil of the coil springs from flexing.
btw I cut coils on my car don't see a problem with it if you don't go to far.

[jon_s]

Get a set of H+R coilovers lol! :roll: Only the best part of £800!

[jwar]

I didnt bother ready everyone else's response because its as long as a book. But, you can get smaller front tires and bigger rear tires to reduce understeer. However, your car is front wheel drive so you need some decent sized front tires for reasonable traction.

[snacky]

Cheapest way to get more speed: Lose weight, go on a diet, take out everything backseats, carpeting, radio, speakers, spare tire, fat gf. or bf. etc. :lol:

[sickx]

Keep in mind that the famously great Focus stock suspension was designed as a SYSTEM. Merely replacing a single component is bound to have undesired affects.
In order to truly improve overall handling (i.e. not just go for looks by dropping the car), you need to consider the suspension as a system. That includes adjustable (or matched) shocks, bushings, and swaybars. If curing understeer is what you're after, consider replacing your shocks and/or rear swaybar.

If you're going on the cheap, there is a possibility that more aggressive front camber will help, but keep an eye on that tirewear pattern!