FWD traction

[AlienDB7]

This may sound stupid, but I'm just wondering if any of you have any traction problem on a FWD car with ~200lb-ft of torque or more? I seem to get wheel spin easily on my car. Basically if I don't feather the gas pedal, I'll get wheelspin. It's 100% stock and the tires (225/50R16 Eagle LS) are in pretty good condition. Not only is the wheelspin a bit embarrassing but it can be a safety problem, especially on left turns (exactly what happened today... :()

Not sure if this is normal, my last car only had 150lb-ft and was 1200kg only so traction was never a problem, except on slippery surfaces.

[draak666]

Yeah, it seems to me that a FWD has more problems with wheelspin. I used to drive a Mazda 626 diesel (don't know how much torque it had) and I have the impression that it spun its wheels more easily than my current BMW. I have no idea how to explain this thoug.

[altezza]

yeah, that's why i always keep the traction control on all the time
or you can go easy on the gas pedal

[sbbs]

Well, that's FF characteristic. Even my compact car also has a bit wheel spin when cornering. Try to drive slow during cornering. By doing so, it give you a better fuel consumption too. That's my opinion. :)

[AlienDB7]

Thanks for the info guys, guess there's no real solution beside RWD or AWD. No wonder they say 220hp is the limit for FWD. Traction control works well in slippy surfaces, but I find response a little bit slow on normal roads.. not so good in an emergency situation. Probably that's what separates me from the "good drivers" who know how to control the power properly without all the electronic aids.

In case you wonder, I don't have lead foot... I always try to drive safe! Since altezza lives in vancouver too, he knows how bad some of the roads here are :)

[gis]

lol,i cant giv my views yet,u wheelspin in my car,u deserve a pat on the bak,just a little low with 90hp :D

[troskap]

Wheelspin? Eh, it's a given with the FF drivetrain, alas. I'm running around 300 or so ft-lbs right now, and about the only thing you can do is feather the throttle until the car sticks on the road, and then feed the car more power. There are some inelegant solutions, like traction bars, and getting all out wacky, and doing the reverse dragster (fat wide tires on front, skinnies on the back), but they're about as practical as having a high-maintenance girlfriend on a 3 month stint in the Amazon. And cornering? Ugh. My poor front tires, I abuse them so :) The front tires are always trying to do too much in a speed-laden turn ...

[altezza]

In case you wonder, I don't have lead foot... I always try to drive safe! Since altezza lives in vancouver too, he knows how bad some of the roads here are :)

haha, that's very true, some of the roads are so bad that I think I need a rally car in order to cope with the problems. Some of the problems that I've encountered: some manholes on Kingsway or Imperial are few inches lower than the road surface and I always think that those roads should be reserved for Jeeps, also, some roads have very uneven surface, and also I hate the fact that it takes years and years for them to pave a short section of road (are they short on money or cannot get the work permit to continue the paving, wtf?).
But some of the roads are paved nice and smooth, that's why I always like to plan my route in advance in order to avoid those bad roads.

[oscargarza88]

you can justa put a hard suspension and very good tires and that dill help alot

[mendocino]

scientific approach here: when you accelerate, the front of the car is lighter (mass transfer) so obviously it"'s normal that the Fwd do wheelspin much than rwd. but anyway wheelspin is not really a problem, what is really annoying with high power fwd is the torquesteer: when you accelerate, the torque trnasmitted to the wheels created a moment of torque (I'm not sure it's the right word in english) and the wheels turn for themselve so you have to grip on the steering really tight! it's really a bad feeling. anyway, try to drive a rwd on the snow without tc and you'll get back to a 90bhp fwd anytime! :-)

[oic0]

Wheelspin is much funner if your RWD. I have a 2900lb RWD truck with a 5 speed. When it rains I can gracfully make turns with like 1/2 throttle at 5 mph whilst the backend glides around making no sound. Shouldnt FWD have less of a traction problem though since most of its weight is over the front wheels?

[espen]

Fit a Quaife or similar clutch-like diff brake, that will help a lot. A friend runs an Audi A3 turbo fitted with a few little tweaks... pushes 310whp and 410Nm, but its friendly and easy to drive with the Quaife ATB diff.

The thing will still light up sticky R-tires ine the first three gears if you try, though. But with a T28BB the boost arrives so quickly you'd probably experience the same in a rwd car too.

[alondahan]

Fit a Quaife or similar clutch-like diff brake, that will help a lot.

the same diff is used in the focus rs (quaife), and from what I heard it solves traction problems, but it makes a lot of torque steer.

[troskap]

Wheelspin is much funner if your RWD. I have a 2900lb RWD truck with a 5 speed. When it rains I can gracfully make turns with like 1/2 throttle at 5 mph whilst the backend glides around making no sound. Shouldnt FWD have less of a traction problem though since most of its weight is over the front wheels?

Oh, RWD wheelspin is fun, alright. At least you can steer through the steerout. As to FWD, at the line, the center of mass goes towards the back, thanks to inertia, so your car lifts off the wheel. During maneuvering, your front wheels are trying to keep up with acceleration/deacceleration as well as turning, which makes it harder to get a FWD car to steer out of the turn, thus the understeer... or, at least, that's my understanding of it....

Limited Slip Differentials do help, though, especially when you're plowing straight ahead; you don't end up with that nasty one wheel spinning out faster than the other. The torque steer isn't too bad, but that's mainly because of tougher components in the motor mounts; I'm pretty sure once I do some more work on the engine, it'll be back to square one, again :)

[The Devils Bravo]

Hi

I used to suffer wheel spin in a 55 bhp punto.. believe it or not.... Until i changed to a nice set of Alloys and a real soft compound Yokohoma tyre..
fixed the problem nicley. .of course the down side is new tyres every 8 months.. but some tyre compounds can be very hard and dont stick to the road.. maybe worth a swap after al its only 2 front tyres..

:twisted:

[PaulGT2164]

i am putting over 300hp to the front wheels in my celica, and the best thing i have found so far is to let the rear of the car sit a lil higher, and use really stiff springs in the back..i still get mad wheelspin in the first three gears, but after i changed out the rear springs for much stiffer ones it helped alot...on some cars like the civic they make special drag suspension kits for, but i like the curves and the corners as well so i have to keep it in a middle for both drag and handling

[BADMIHAI]

I get wheel spin on my FWD 120 hp Nissan. FWD can handle less power than a RWD or AWD config. When you accelerate, the weight shifts to the back of the car, which is why RWD and AWD systems get better traction.

[mhn3773]

i think its pretty cool/funny when u see a FWD car going around a track...it gets to a long sweeping lets say right hander the guy just floors it and the front just billows smoke the whole way round the turn =)

i know thats not the correct way..but its still fun lol i have ridden in some FWD cars that don't have a traction problem unless u get stupid with it..like putting the rear tires on those eat in fast food trays pulling the hand brake and nailing the gas in the rain =) but thats another story lol

[jpatino03]

I own one of those FF cars doesn't have a traction problem :D
Oh yeah, and Honda's got the torque steer thing figured out nicely too.
However, I was driving my friend's Grand Am GT (150 HP, 140 lb/ft) the other day and you really have to feather it off the line and feed the throttle smoothly or the front right tire goes all over the place.

[sickx]

LSD may help for traction, but it will increase your torque-steer, which menodocino so aptly pointed out is the bane of high-power FWD cars!!!
Case in point-- the new Acura TL, with 270hp, and torque steer like godzilla (it has an LSD)

[xplane_Uppsala]

Torque steer only happened if the drive shafts differs in length. If you buy a car with equal drive shafts on both sides you do not get torque steer. :wink:

[TeflonTron]

To help reduce torque-steer fit harder suspension brushes and pick-ups, and also think about a sub-frame brace along with a steering rack clamp. All of the above will help stop the suspension and chassis from flexing and this in turn will lower torque steer.

[sickx]

xplane--if it were that simple, the Honda engineers would have done it. The torque steer issue is one of the few serious flaws of the new TL--equal-length half-shafts may *theoritically* help, but when are forces perfectly equally distributed in the real world?

[Wutputt]

Torque steer only happened if the drive shafts differs in length. If you buy a car with equal drive shafts on both sides you do not get torque steer. :wink:
That's easier said, than done. Since most FWD cars have transverse mounted engines. It's almost impossible to get the differential just in the middle of the car if you only have a small car.

And like sickx said, if you have equal length drive shafts, torque steer will still rise. It will in a smaller amount but it will still be there.

[Leo_M3]

Isnt it amazing with this information that some people still go off and modify they're Intrgras and Celicas for over 400hp? :shock: :lol:

Persoanly I wouldnt get a car with FWD and more then 200hp, 220hp is the ABSOLUTE limit but I think 200hp pushing it far enough.

FWD cars cant be modified too far IMO for straightline poke and handling simply because of that horrid, tourque steer.

[snacky]

i am putting over 300hp to the front wheels in my celica, and the best thing i have found so far is to let the rear of the car sit a lil higher, and use really stiff springs in the back..i still get mad wheelspin in the first three gears,

the best thing I have found so far in my 100 hp honda civic is to do reverse donuts. the civic makes far more smoke and it's easier to start the rotation than my bimmer too. imagine the donuts you can do in that 300 hp car. put her n reverse and go for it !!! oh yeah, tape and post it on jabbasworld please :mrgreen:

[sickx]

Leo. while you are correct in assuming that FWD is not OPTIMAL for straight-line accel, keep in mind that you have some FWD drag racers that are dipping into the 8s in the quarter mile. Pretty incredible considering the limitations, and far from slow. Of course, RWD is in the 4s! :D

[TeflonTron]

I already posted the best way to eliminate Torque-Steer 6 posts up. Sorry to be pedantic.

[SamuraiGti]

In my dad's car i get wheelspin sometimes too, and it's just only a Primera 1.6.

In my brother's car, Seat Ibiza Tdi, i don't have wheelspin so easy, because of the tires too. Michelin Pilot Exalto.

[PaulGT2164]

leo M3 i dont have a torque steer problem the 6th gen celicas are amazing handling and well behaved cars. i enjoy basting m3s too , in a straight line, and i am sure i would hold my own against a m3 on a track, if i turned up the boost and invested in a better suspension, FWD isnt the first choice in a car, but it can be made to handle and drive well, look at the touring car series with the BMWs and the integras, civic, and proteges, they FWD'ers hold thier own quiet easily, FWD technology is not that far off from RWD, and a car with a nice chassis (integra, celica) can be just as compitent on a track as a rwd in the proper hands, i can have oversteer or understeer easily with my current set up and spring rates, i have been playing with the engine in the celica (bought some goodies to aid cooling and finally spents some good ol tuning time on it) and i believe i am cranking out about 360hp according to the G-Tech (this is at the flywheel i would guestimate) there are no dynos around here yet, but i know my 0-60 is alot faster, specially with slicks (low 5s) and thats still with lots of tirespin (i can only run 235 wides, if i still wanna turn halfway decent) and the car is a blast to drive. when i finish the mr2, it will be a interesting comparison. dont bash FWD so easily, its not what it used to be

snacky, revers donuts are a blast in the car lol, it will almost pull your teeth out the front of your mouth, it was a blast till i guess i cooked the CV joints :D hahahah

i run 900lb rate springs in the back, i would love to have some 1200s or 1600s, and i run 450s in the front, and i can rotate the car like it was RWD with a lil snap of the wheel or e-brake fun =)

i will be glad to get the mr2 done, heres what i got in the engine so far :), arias forged low comp pistons, eagle forged rods, arp studs,bolts, caps, hks valve springs, shim under buckt conversion, hks 274 duration cams, aem cam gears, UO pulley kit, toyomoto exhaust manifold, and i am fixing to buy a T62 Turbo for it
with the proper fuels setup (walboro fuel pump, fuel cell, and some 800cc injectorss) and proper tuning and cooling (im gonna use a liquid to air intercooler prolly) i am hoping for at least 500hp which should be easily reached
i just have to find the donor car now, i have a few picked out. i hope to finish in march with it =)

[gottacatchup]

my car has pretty nasty torque steer and wheel spin just happens specialy after a light rain i just cant go through some corners without some amount of wheelspin

[nchs09]

i think every front wheel drive will get wheelspin in the rain, no matter what.
my car with so little hp (122) and around the same in torque.. gets made wheelspin in the rain wheni turn and all. just gotta take it eaasy on the gas and play around with the cluth untill u find the way ur car works :mrgreen:

[zevolv]

Our Maxima has no trouble at all in any kind of weather. and either does the Golf
\/ look below \/

[graywolf624]

"and i am sure i would hold my own against a m3 on a track, if i turned up the boost and invested in a better suspension"

Regardless of the potential of fwd you are smoking something if you think just a little bit of work will get you even with an m3. The cars you see in the touring car series and any other race setup are running suspensions you couldn't handle on a street car.

Furthermore, the rules are different in touring car based on fwd versus rwd..
An example:
In British touring car a fwd car can weigh 975 kgs to the rwd cars 1025 kg requirement.


Ultimately rwd cars are both cheaper to make faster(beyond a certain point of course) and have a higher overall potential. FWD cars meanwhile are cheaper to produce and better for the unwashed masses(aka understeer is safer for grandma then oversteer).

[ChrisAW11]

Perhaps you can also check tire pressures and free stuff like that... it won't completely solve the problem, but if you got a serious difference between what pressure should be there and what is, correcting it can get rid of some percent. Please don't feel attacked if you are already checking your tire pressure regularly... I know some people who don't, and one of them had exactly the problem you are describing.

[Copso]

It's fairly common to have a FWD car spin its wheels while cornering because you're asking the front wheels both to propel and steer the vehicle, added to the fact the weight distribution of a FWD car doesn't help in that sense...

So it's no big deal, just be careful where the road is slippery

[sickx]

fwd tire spin in corners is likely due to lack of LSD. (the car, not you)
Also, as for new maxima, likely to have traction control.
Even a very low-hp fwd w/o LSD or tech goodies will always be able to spin an inside front tire in a turn.

[COFair]

The limit of the bhp is about 220 with a FWD car! (as Jeremy said in the Sabb 95 Aero test)

[PaulGT2164]

graywolf624, i know "simple" suspension setup wont get me with a m3, but my setup isnt simple, and i have loads more power, i know RWD is better, i am streesing the fact that with a lil modification, a good driver, a FWD can be made to compete with a RWD car. i am just illustrating my point to to qualm the people who are baching FWD as a totally unacceptable platform, when its not.

[graywolf624]

I don't think you understand my term for simple. Simple is a car tht you just put in better stock style parts. You would have to custom setup the design of the suspension of the civic.

Also, I agree that the car is not unacceptable. However, you must understand that in a car with equal stats the rwd car will win every time. You also must understand (on average) it costs more to make a fwd car have equal stats.

In other words I don't believe for a second that you will be competitive with the m3. That being said my car isn't much more then competitive with a stock m3 and never will be. It's justifiable based on the class and level of competition. You also have the benefit of a cheaper car to lose in an accident. So I agree and I disagree I guess.

Remember some things you can only design out so far.

[jinxed84]

i drive my dads acura TL type S most of the time. its FF with 260hp. im sure it would be quite easy to spin the fronts but you have to just excercise control in first. that, and i always keep the traction control on as its not my car.

the thing it sounds like you need to to is be smooth on the throttle in turns. very smooth. point, and shoot. no strange gas peddle antics mid turn.

[jakaracman]

What's the point of having 200+ HP if you can't use them all. TC and ESP sucks!

[brijoel]

The limit of the bhp is about 220 with a FWD car! (as Jeremy said in the Sabb 95 Aero test)


umm, actually that statement is mostly only true for a lightweight fwd car. you could put 300 hp in a 4600 lb caddy and be lucky to get the wheels to break loose. it really depends on the car and what you want it to do. i personally despise fwd from all of my experiences in driving fwd cars, whether it be some 4 door family car like my mazda 626 i had several years ago, to a friend's well setup auto-x civic hatch. i just cant stand it. hell, im not even big on awd anymore for the same reasons(i used to have an awd tsi talon as well). undeersteer reeeeeaaaallly just sucks, but at least awd you can adjust the suspension into oversteer easier.

[sickx]

Keep in mind that you can also setup a FWD for severe oversteer, and almost every RWD is setup from the factory with understeer.

It's weight-transitions that you're concerned with, where throttle-on at apex settles in a RWD car just right!

[pranesh76]

How do they manage to get away with it with barely any torque steer in the neon SRT? I've read reviews saying their LSD works really well.

[caneswell]

scientific approach here: when you accelerate, the front of the car is lighter (mass transfer) so obviously it"'s normal that the Fwd do wheelspin much than rwd. but anyway wheelspin is not really a problem, what is really annoying with high power fwd is the torquesteer: when you accelerate, the torque trnasmitted to the wheels created a moment of torque (I'm not sure it's the right word in english) and the wheels turn for themselve so you have to grip on the steering really tight! it's really a bad feeling. anyway, try to drive a rwd on the snow without tc and you'll get back to a 90bhp fwd anytime! :-)

hehe, i don't quite have the same point of view. I love rear wheel drive cars. especially in the snow. Just don't get enough of it here in the UK. Two years ago when we had a decent snow fall, me and a friend spent all xmas eve and, xmas day driving round a round. Sideways!!


Back to the post. FWD will always wheelspin more, as has been mentioned, due to weight transfer. Hence why all good cars are rear wheel drive :) . You could try stiffer rear springs, lower the front ride height, get a Limited slip diff (could increase torque steer though). Invest in a better set of tyres.....

[itsthepham]

Who wouldnt have problems - FWD sucks - no matter what your gonna get problems unless you do something with your suspension ( many other things you can do, but this could be the cheapest ) Prevent most of that dunk your car does when FWD cars take off and you should be content for a while