European Cars are not Overpriced, Americans just build shit!

[Toronto]

I love how RC45 says that a bmw m and an AMG are overpriced.
They are not.

Have you been inside lets just say an e55 amg, and a CTS? The build quality on the GM is very poor, the plastic feel and the ugly materials just don't compare to that of the Benz.

For example. My aunt owns a red Escalade in New York, and she has to take it to the GM dealer at least once ever 1-2months, and her husband who drives on the same roads as her in his X5, has maybe gone to get the car fixed about once every half year. And the car was only at the dealer for only a day at most, yet the Escalade was there for 2-3 days.

Not only that the Plastic is falling off the plastic ( :wink: ) on the Escalades dash board while the Bmw is as good and new.

So I don't think people would mind paying the extra money for a car that is built better and looks better

Here is a simple way to show you that european cars are built better, and use better materials to make the cars with,
go to a GM dealer and feel the leather in their cars
then go to a BMW, AUDI, or Merc dealer and feel the leather in their cars.

what would you pick? Quality or Cheap shit?

[SilviaS15Cwest]

haha, my friends mom has a 2001 Suburban and the AC compressor has gone out 3 times since she bought it new. I think that is the only problem she is having with it though.

[SPEEDKILLAR]

I agree with you toronto, your completely right about this, you pay more if you want quality, and thats it.

[Toronto]

and just b4 anyone says this,
i know that merc's have had some trouble with their cars in that last couple of years, but common it just that people with the most money don't want to be out done by a toyota, so they complain

[T-Bird]

do you really want to start something like this? American cars are NOT cheap shit and yes German cars do have SOME things that are better but still quite expensive on some counts. I know someone who had a C-coupe and the sliding glass roof stuck open on him in the rain after only a few months of ownership. some people are soo one minded there are many non american companies that build shitty ass cars and that includes european cars, hell before Ford bought Land Rover and Jaguar they were building some crappy ass shit and know they are doing much better. Mercedes was building some crap for a while there and are only now doing better but still not perfect at all. The new BMW 1-series looks to be a promissing piece of shit. American car companies have some not so good cars but every company does, hell the swedish can't build their own cars they have to go to the japanese and steal one of theirs. The Focus is one of the best cars in it's class and guess what it's American, The Mustangs and Camaros etc... aren't built to go round tracks as much as down the strip, the Corvette is one hell of a car although the new one is fugly. We make some really good trucks and SUV's the Minivan wouldn't exist as we know it with out American companies (Chrysler specificaly). I know people who have Escalades and haven't had any trouble with them so maybe your aunt just doesn't take care of her's. On the looks front Rovers look like shit, Alfa's mainly look ugly and same with fiat's, the new X3 is somewhat fugly, the A-class ugly the Audi A2 A3 ugly.

[Max Power]

I don't think this is a fair comparison.....American cars, shitty as they are, are built for mass production and that mass has to cover the States, Canada & Mexico.....European cars, at least the ones u've mentioned (E55) are Premium cars, and are bought buy ppl with premium needs.....If a ratio of American cars to European cars is 50:1 in the States than Mercedes can afford to have a better quality built vehicle.....hence GM has to hire more workers which are less qualified and use cheaper materials to satisfy the general public....I've worked at a GM plant and there are bums building cars.......which can't be good for quality or reliability

......by the way the Focus was built in Europe for Europe but its just used in the States

[T-Bird]

actually the Focus is built in Canada

[graywolf624]

Have you been inside lets just say an e55 amg, and a CTS? The build quality on the GM is very poor, the plastic feel and the ugly materials just don't compare to that of the Benz.

According to jdpowers middle survey gm is 3 behind toyota and honda in build quality.. Well above BMW. In terms of plastic feel and ugly material, those are opinions, and it really depends on what you like. They are changing them as peoples tastes change, but most people could care less. The fact remains that an amg is not a performance per value piece. Great cars.. But.. your paying for the name and the import fees in addition to the luxuries. Same with the bmw.

[blah]

im driving my bros Z3 right now for about a month till he moves back here, and after riding in that beast, i dont know what to say about american interior. Even though theres not much inside, its done so tastefully that its satisfying.

[graywolf624]

jd power 3 year term reliability 2003:
http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/jdpower.html
Problems per 100 cars.
Porsche 103
Toyota 196
Honda 215
Nissan 258
BMW 262
GM 264
Subaru 266
AVERAGE 273
Ford 287
DaimlerChrysler 311
Mitsubishi 339
Hyundai 342
Isuzu 368
VW 378
Suzuki 403
Daewoo 421
Kia 509

GM's buick was highest ranked non luxury brand for 3 year survey.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4854302/
Initial quality servey.. first 90 days.
Lexus 87
Cadillac 93
Jaguar 98
Honda 99
Buick 100
Mercury 100
Hyundai 102
Infiniti 104
Toyota 104
Mercedes-Benz 106
Audi 109
BMW 109
Oldsmobile 110
Volvo 113
Acura 117
Chevrolet 119
INDUSTRY AVERAGE 119
Chrysler 120
Dodge 121
Lincoln 121
Pontiac 122
Subaru 123
GMC 127
Ford 130
Mitsubishi 130
Saab 133
Jeep 136
MINI 142
Land Rover 148
Saturn 149
Suzuki 149
Kia 153
Nissan 154
Mazda 157
Scion 158
Porsche 159
Volkswagen 164
HUMMER 173

[T-Bird]

well looks like you get something for your $100,000 dollar investment in an American Truck (eventhough they are guaranteed for 13 years)

[RC45]

I love how RC45 says that a bmw m and an AMG are overpriced.
They are not.



I do not believe I have ever said that those cars are overpriced. But if it makes you happy to say so then knock yourself out.

I am simply stating that they are not the best performance bang-for-the-buck as other manufacturers enter the horse-power wars.

It is just that in the day of the CTS-V you no longer have to pay $80,000 for a 400hp sedan.

[FoxFour]

I think RC45 made his point quite eloquently.

[Toronto]

I love how RC45 says that a bmw m and an AMG are overpriced.
They are not.



I do not believe I have ever said that those cars are overpriced. But if it makes you happy to say so then knock yourself out.

I am simply stating that they are not the best performance bang-for-the-buck as other manufacturers enter the horse-power wars.

It is just that in the day of the CTS-V you no longer have to pay $80,000 for a 400hp sedan.

over-priced BMW or Audi?
you did say this in this thread http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11432 , but if you ment my bang-for your buck as in getting 400hp, for much less. but you are loosing the other things that make the AMG and BMW M such good cars, the way they are built inside to make the driver feel more comfortable

actually the Focus is built in Canada
yes it is now, only because the car sold so well and had such a big impact over-seas ford decided to bring it over. much like now they are thinking of bringing back the contour/Mercury Mystique, a car that has been selling as the mondeo in europe

*** Edit (didn't want to start a new post ***

The new BMW 1-series looks to be a promissing piece of shit... ...the Minivan wouldn't exist as we know it with out American companies (Chrysler specificaly)... ...Alfa's mainly look ugly...

BMW 1-series is a good car, BMW logo at the front, rear-wheel drive in a fwd world. i think it will sell good,

No one but North Americans buy the minivan, and all the profits from the current sales of them go back to germany cause it is owned by a German company (or didn't you know?)

and Alfa's look amazing, so much style even JC couldn't say no to the looks of the new alfa's, they are just so sexy!

[RC45]

I love how RC45 says that a bmw m and an AMG are overpriced.
They are not.



I do not believe I have ever said that those cars are overpriced. But if it makes you happy to say so then knock yourself out.

I am simply stating that they are not the best performance bang-for-the-buck as other manufacturers enter the horse-power wars.

It is just that in the day of the CTS-V you no longer have to pay $80,000 for a 400hp sedan.

over-priced BMW or Audi?
you did say this in this thread http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11432 , but if you ment my bang-for your buck as in getting 400hp, for much less. but you are loosing the other things that make the AMG and BMW M such good cars, the way they are built inside to make the driver feel more comfortable


LOL :lol: - nice - of all the posts to quote, you choose the one with a facetious. smiley peppered jab at the AMG and M brigade... ;) hehe

Let's face it - until now what other choices did you have for a factory 400hp+ sedan?

And if it isn't the hp you are after, why not just get the normal german model?

Now I feel the V6 CTS is an overpriced pile of crap.. :P

[FoxFour]

I think that we can all agree that for the past several years, the big three have made great strides in quality and dependability. Both GM and Chrysler have made plans to improve the quality of the interiors, I guess with the proliferation of many sucessful Asian and European brands, namely Toyota, Honda and Volkswagen, the US consumer expects more for their dollar. Hey, competition is good.
Now, to say that all European car companies are superior to the American companies? What about Fiat and Alfa Romeo? A co-worker of mine, who hails from Venice, says that Fiat in his country is notorious for building crappy cars.

[T-Bird]

No one but North Americans buy the minivan, and all the profits from the current sales of them go back to germany cause it is owned by a German company (or didn't you know?)



Well except the Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Pontiac, Mercury, And the Chrysler/Dodge minivans (which do sell overseas) Haven't changed significantly since the merger so it's not a German.

[graywolf624]

"No one but North Americans buy the minivan,"

First off thats untrue. I know for a fact they sell other minivans over there. The PT cruiser is just one I watched top gear review.
Furthermore, what you guys call people movers is basically an ugly minivan.

So you want to say mercedes is being influenced by chrysler huh?

Well I guess under the same statements subaru, saab, volvo, aston martin, mazda, fiat, land rover, Opel, Vauxhaul, jag, and Holden have all been drug through the mud and destroyed by their partial to full american ownership..
Bah.

[amanthapar]

american build cars mainly for the middle class.. the expensive amercan cars i think is the saleen .. that is just a one off..
then we got the gt40 ... price of the cheapest ferrari..
then there dodge sr 10.. also abt the 260 price...
....

i cant think of any more now, but the point im making is that they build cars that will sell... i.e market orientated cars...
where as euro cars are producted orientated which is why euro cars are more $$$ and BETTER.

[T-Bird]

are you taling about the SRT-10 Ram? or the RT-10 Viper because both are alot cheaper than a Ferrari.

[Toronto]

"No one but North Americans buy the minivan,"

First off thats untrue. I know for a fact they sell other minivans over there. The PT cruiser is just one I watched top gear review.
Furthermore, what you guys call people movers is basically an ugly minivan.


the sales of minivan's in europe are no where near as good as in the states, And the largest minivan producer (Chrysler/Dodge) has all its profits go to Germany. Since the company is owned by Merc

2nd the PT cruiser is not a minivan it is a truck because it could not make the cut as a car on many test. (nor was it ever supposed to be a minivan)

[amanthapar]

umm yeah well srt -10..
.................................................. ...........

and id like to add this to my previous post .. im not saying that euros are superior its just that they have more know-how to build cars.. the knowledged compared to americans is slightly more.. which is another reason why euros build better cars..
if u dont belive .. MCF-1, enzo, SLR, Carrera gt.. are peak of euros cars..
compare it to a Saleen well the saleen wont be far behind i think but would not be able to be in that league though.

[T-Bird]

the PT cruiser is not a Minivan OR a truck it's categorized as a station wagon by insurance companies. And not all the profits from Chrysler goes to Germany it was a Merger not a buy-out there is a difference you know And everybody knows that Daimler/Chrysler merged a few years back.

[graywolf624]

2nd the PT cruiser is not a minivan it is a truck because it could not make the cut as a car on many test. (nor was it ever supposed to be a minivan)
It's a minivan. All the magazines place it in the minivan category. It looks like a minivan.. ITs from the company that invented minivans.. Minivans dont have to drive like a car. Your people cars are basically minivans as well.

If it quaks like a duck, its usually a duck.

[Toronto]

And not all the profits from Chrysler goes to Germany it was a Merger not a buy-out there is a difference you know And everybody knows that Daimler/Chrysler merged a few years back.

yes all profits do go to germany, now these are profits, have you taken a class on accounting?

after everyone in good ol' US of A, is paid off, the money left over go to germany, and yes it was a "merger" (quotes with fingers) but Daimler Benz is still the father/mother company they are the one holding onto chryslers choke chain.

and i heard from someone from a Chrysler dealer that he PT could not make (or did poorly) on tests that delt with emissions and crashes as a car, so they bumped it up as a truck to the gov.

and here is a site proving my point,

http://www.chicagolandmopar.com/news/w000311d.asp

aslo this site uses the word truck
http://www.alldata.com/recall/make/Chrysler_Truck/PT_Cruiser.html

another side proving my right

http://ptcw.truckmoxie.com/

this PT fan site, as the word truck in the url, as well almost all the links are truck related?

so i guess i was wrong?

[graywolf624]

"Daimler Benz is still the father/mother company they are the one holding onto chryslers choke chain. "

Its daimler Chrysler.. not daimler.

"this PT fan site, as the word truck in the url, as well almost all the links are truck related?
"
These idiot fanboys also drive their cars to classica car shows and think they have something special.

Consumer reports has the ptcruiser as a compact car.

Reviews minivans: http://www.carreview.com/Minivans/Chrysler,PT,Cruiser/PRD_29067_1530crx.aspx

Dodge didnt market it as a minivan cause it sounded cooler but it is:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=39&article_id=3247

"In reality, this unusual vehicle is a mini minivan""PT Cruiser is really a small minivan, not the customized hot rod it appears to be."
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1041/is_5_78/ai_61755513

"because it's really a cleverly disguised mini-minivan."
http://www.hardrive.com/reviews/01PT.htm

It's based ona car chasis.. it has nothing in common with a truck.. It is a minivan they managed to make people think is special.. Just like the backstreet boys are a bunch of dancers they convinced people could sing.

[T-Bird]

yes all profits do go to germany, now these are profits, have you taken a class on accounting?



Yes I have taken an Accounting class Jackass I know what profits are but you have to realize that with a merger there is not exactly one person getting all the profits there are still americans reining some of those profits their way.

Maybe I can state that simpler for you...
Money go to big man in suit at Chrysler AND Mercedes

[Toronto]

graywolf624- yes i understand your point but, "PT Cruiser is really a small minivan" it really is a minivan at hart maybe, but the USA government says it is a truck, so it is a truck i am sorry. I know it is based on a neon or what ever but if you read this they could only call it a truck for many reasons

http://www.chicagolandmopar.com/news/w000311d.asp

T-Bird (is that is your real name :D )

"Shares of Chrysler (C) were off 11/16 at 48-5/16 late Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange.
Chrysler's $38 billion transatlantic merger with Daimler-Benz is entering the finishing stretch.
Last week, Daimler-Benz shareholders decided overwhelmingly to swap their Daimler stock for shares in the newly-created DaimlerChrysler company. About 97 percent of shareholders tendered their Daimler stock.
Daimler needed more than 90 percent of shareholders to tender their shares so the deal could be classed as a merger, rather than a takeover. "

see that last line is very important, cause it says that is can be called a merger rather then a takeover , so american investors would still put money into the company.

as well all money goes to Deutsche Bank AG with some money from top investors still being held in The Bank of New York to keep them happy.

and if you ask anyone that knows anything about stocks they would use the word takeover

[graywolf624]

but the USA government says it is a truck, so it is a truck i am sorry.

So you believe everything the govt says? Govt money gets it entitled a truck. It isn't a truck. Trucks don't have car chassis. In reality the govt calls it an suv.. which falls under the light truck category.. Even that is sketchy.


Daimler needed more than 90 percent of shareholders to tender their shares so the deal could be classed as a merger, rather than a takeover. "

see that last line is very important, cause it says that is can be called a merger rather then a takeover , so american investors would still put money into the company.

as well all money goes to Deutsche Bank AG with some money from top investors still being held in The Bank of New York to keep them happy.


Considering daimler chrysler isn't making any profits I think its a moot point.

[graywolf624]

On a side note.. daimler chrysler is being sued yet again over the merger.. this will mark 3 suits.. one of which they already lost for the tune of 300 million.

And all and most aren't synonyms.

[T-Bird]

well I could accept it as a Light SUV since it wouldn't be the only one in that category based on a car.

[RC45]

graywolf624- yes i understand your point but, "PT Cruiser is really a small minivan" it really is a minivan at hart maybe, but the USA government says it is a truck, so it is a truck i am sorry. I know it is based on a neon or what ever but if you read this they could only call it a truck for many reasons

http://www.chicagolandmopar.com/news/w000311d.asp

T-Bird (is that is your real name :D )

"Shares of Chrysler (C) were off 11/16 at 48-5/16 late Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange.
Chrysler's $38 billion transatlantic merger with Daimler-Benz is entering the finishing stretch.
Last week, Daimler-Benz shareholders

Show me a picture of the PT Cruiser license plate.

If it is legally a truck then the license plate will reflect that fact.

Similarly will the insurance industry reflect it as such.

BTW - isn't it quite flattering, that of all the companies in the world that Daimler chose to purchase, they chose Chrylser - must have been because they rrealised that they could 1.) learn a few things about actual mass produciton and 2.) how to become really profitable... ;)

[cooperluke]

IMO... European cars are much much better...

But that.. is just my opinion... :)

[mit5005]

IMO... European cars are much much better...

But that.. is just my opinion... :)

Well thanks for this useless comment.
Anyways, the fact is that you can't compare these brands by referring to personal experiences with them like Toronto did in this topic. Because my relator has a 745i and she has been having problems with it since she bought it a year ago. And my friend's e46 M3's inside door handles are deteriorating. If you want to compare brands, use collective information and not personal experience because that means nothing.

[amanthapar]

hmmm MIT500.... THESE small problems like door handles detoriating .. happen to all cars.. euro cars are not perfect.. it depends how ur bitch friend had maintained it? did it occur to u that those euro cars need more attention ?

and who cares? my E class stalled, had to get the engine pump fixed... so what ?
lol...
its still better than any american car .. okay most ..

[Tomerville]

Not only that the Plastic is falling off the plastic ( ) on the Escalades dash board while the Bmw is as good and new.


That is just one crap experience, As graywolf said, follow the J.D. Power ratings.

[amanthapar]

i hate it when americans defend themselves talk about the PRICE..

i said once said that enzo cannot be beaten by any car...
and some jackass said oh well nothing costs half of that ... well if v all took price into account we should be talking abt hondas, and cars under 50 grand or so...

so when someone talks about the price... its of no value here.. we only wanna know abt which car is better piece of enigeering... who cares abt price... (its not like we are seriously talking so we can buy one tomorrow lol)

[blah]

How the hell is the PT Cruiser a truck? It has no bed, it doesnt have much a towing capability, or anything else. I think of the PT as a car, just like the Scion. Id love to see a PT try and go offroading. :D

[LotusGT1]

I love how RC45 says that a bmw m and an AMG are overpriced.
They are not.



I do not believe I have ever said that those cars are overpriced. But if it makes you happy to say so then knock yourself out.


http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11432&start=0

First post.

This topic sucks btw.

[graywolf624]

i said once said that enzo cannot be beaten by any car...
and some jackass said oh well nothing costs half of that ... well if v all took price into account we should be talking abt hondas, and cars under 50 grand or so...

The point is that saying the enzo handles better then american cars.. doesnt say that american cars arent that good.. Its like apples to oranges. If you use that as an example.. every car not from italy sucks.

[graywolf624]

Prize must be taken into consideration if its not a matter of the best car period.

But if we are talking of the best car a company can produce it shouldnt be a factor, if the saleen is the best handling car from America it have to go up against the Enzo maybe, prize shouldnt be a factor, cuz this is the best car you are capable of producing deal with it, dont put in "yes it gets beaten but your car are more expensive than ours so it should beat it"

Ok.. no one but italian cars can handle.. I think that settles this arguement under your rules.

We were wondering the difference between european and american cars.. not the pinacle of 1 countries achievement.. Or are you telling me that the americans, japanese, germans, and british all suck at making cars cause they couldnt make a car to compete with the enzo..

That makes no sense.

The best car period isnt important in this discussion.. cause there can only be 1 best car.. which as I said, means italians are the only ones that make good cars.

[RC45]

I love how RC45 says that a bmw m and an AMG are overpriced.
They are not.



I do not believe I have ever said that those cars are overpriced. But if it makes you happy to say so then knock yourself out.


http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11432&start=0

First post.

This topic sucks btw.

Your point?

When last have you actually driven cars like this back to back to base your comments on?

All you "wannabes" are really entertaining - in the mean time I am satisfied that as a used purchase the CTS-V is the best bang for the buck.. period.

The last M5 I drove didn't impress... what did you think of the last real car you drove?

[T-Bird]

I take it your gonna buy a CTS-V the instant you find a good used one aren't you RC45

[RC45]

I take it your gonna buy a CTS-V the instant you find a good used one aren't you RC45

Hell yeah... ;)

[LotusGT1]

Your point?

When last have you actually driven cars like this back to back to base your comments on?

All you "wannabes" are really entertaining - in the mean time I am satisfied that as a used purchase the CTS-V is the best bang for the buck.. period.

The last M5 I drove didn't impress... what did you think of the last real car you drove?

Your point ?

About the CTS-V vs. M3 vs. M5

http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2004-1-8/1999042-rabbitl1a.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2004-1-8/1999047-rabbitl1d.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2004-1-8/1999051-rabbitl1d.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2004-1-8/1999055-rabbitl1d.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2004-1-8/1999056-rabbitl1d.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2004-1-8/1999061-rabbitl1d.jpg

You made yourself look like a moron by the comments you made in the thread I linked you to. Don't think because you own a Z06 you can consider yourself a racer. LOL, looking at the basic mistake you made it's safe to assume your nothing more or less than a pedal masher. Talking about wannabe...

You are full of shit, that's my point :o

[graywolf624]

You made yourself look like a moron by the comments you made in the thread I linked you to. Don't think because you own a Z06 you can consider yourself a racer. LOL, looking at the basic mistake you made it's safe to assume your nothing more or less than a pedal masher. Talking about wannabe...

You are full of shit, that's my point

I need to point out something here. they clearly got a car with some problems. I would take the numbers with a grain of salt. Also, from reading the article the only thing I can see re: handling is that caddilac is harder to make handle well.. not that it doesnt handle better then the m3. (and way better then the m5).

You see what you want to see, but Ive read reviews where they actually got the claimed 0-60 and actually run good laps rather then short shifting.. Short shifting does not only denote grunt I hate to tell you. That can seriously play with what gear you exit a turn and such.

Need I also point out.. as much as I enjoy reading rt.. they have poor road testers.. Other companies tests of the ford gt for instance were nearly a second quicker in the quarter. Whether that means car and driver got a ringer for a ford gt.. or rt cant drive.. thats up to you.

[RC45]

Your point?

When last have you actually driven cars like this back to back to base your comments on?

All you "wannabes" are really entertaining - in the mean time I am satisfied that as a used purchase the CTS-V is the best bang for the buck.. period.

The last M5 I drove didn't impress... what did you think of the last real car you drove?

Your point ?

About the CTS-V vs. M3 vs. M5

You made yourself look like a moron by the comments you made in the thread I linked you to. Don't think because you own a Z06 you can consider yourself a racer. LOL, looking at the basic mistake you made it's safe to assume your nothing more or less than a pedal masher. Talking about wannabe...

You are full of shit, that's my point :o

Hey - cockass - don't think I have already seen that article?

The state of the car was well known and documented. How can you take that test seriosuly when they didn't even fix the leaking fucking tyre?

No shit Sherlock - Those idiots ask wheter the leaking tyre could have contributed to the differing left-vs-right skidpad numbers. THAT should show you they are idiots.

And ANY half-competant driver could launch the CTS-V if they know know what they are doing.

I drove one for 30 minutes and was able to launch without any "wheelhop" or "eletronic hysteria". Just wheelspin that was modulated with the throttle pedal.

Not to mention the car was not a production ready car.

ANd if YOU actually read the article you would know they decided the M5 was NOT $23,000 better than the CTS-V.

That article actually does more to bolster our view point than yours.

[LotusGT1]

That's not my point moron.

The article was just posted for everybody to see.

The fact that you can't keep laptimes and handling apart, that makes you the idiot.

[RC45]

That's not my point moron.

The article was just posted for everybody to see.

The fact that you can't keep laptimes and handling apart, that makes you the idiot.

You'll need an insult a lot better than that to warrant a reply.... :roll:

[amanthapar]

about the price difference .. the reason it is more expensive could be because itt is a n import?

if u compare the sales price a german would pay for the m5 and an american would pay for the cts-v .. then they should be similar right?
then according to the mag post m5 is better ..
the reason according to them was that it was not worth the extra 23K

[amanthapar]

oh and about the price....

well some earlier said .. that the saleen is half the price of the enzo .. so that means it cant be as good...
welll .. firstly can americans make something as good as the enzo wether or not price is taken ? answer= no...

im not insulting ..

[RC45]

oh and about the price....

well some earlier said .. that the saleen is half the price of the enzo .. so that means it cant be as good...
welll .. firstly can americans make something as good as the enzo wether or not price is taken ? answer= no...

im not insulting ..

*yawn* :roll:

[graywolf624]

"then they should be similar right?
then according to the mag post m5 is better ..
the reason according to them was that it was not worth the extra 23K"
The m5 isnt that much cheaper over there. Maybe an m5 in germany versus a cts-v in germany maybe. But remember the m5 isnt the performance option.


that the saleen is half the price of the enzo .. so that means it cant be as good...
welll .. firstly can americans make something as good as the enzo wether or not price is taken ? answer= no...

First, how do you know that other then a big assumption pulled out of your ass?
Can the Germans Brits ect make a car as good as the Enzo(they dont have one so I guess not. :roll: )
Thats not a valid logic train.. You cant say something isnt possible (or even likely) just because no one has built it.

[T-Bird]

oh and about the price....

well some earlier said .. that the saleen is half the price of the enzo .. so that means it cant be as good...
welll .. firstly can americans make something as good as the enzo wether or not price is taken ? answer= no...

im not insulting ..

Well do you have proof that not one company in America can build something as good as the Enzo? NO no one has tried. But the last time an American company aimed to defeat Ferrrari they did way back in the day it was called the GT40 it went against the best they had then so I'm sure if a company was devoted enough to defeat the Enzo they could.

[T-Bird]

But remember the m5 isnt the performance option.

Umm last time I checked the M5 is the performance option/version, There are the other 5-series cars that aren't as much a perfromer as the M5 the M5 IS a performance version.

[RC45]

But remember the m5 isnt the performance option.

Umm last time I checked the M5 is the performance option/version, There are the other 5-series cars that aren't as much a perfromer as the M5 the M5 IS a performance version.

I think gray means the M5 vs M3 vs CTS-V thing.

The M3 is the boy-racer, the M5 is the excu-mobile and the CTS-V covers both bases at once.

[graywolf624]

I think gray means the M5 vs M3 vs CTS-V thing.

Exactly.

[RC45]

I think gray means the M5 vs M3 vs CTS-V thing.

Exactly.

I am guessing we are the only ones that actually get it... ;)

[LotusGT1]

That's not my point moron.

The article was just posted for everybody to see.

The fact that you can't keep laptimes and handling apart, that makes you the idiot.

You'll need an insult a lot better than that to warrant a reply.... :roll:

Thanks for missing the point again idiot.

[RC45]

That's not my point moron.

The article was just posted for everybody to see.

The fact that you can't keep laptimes and handling apart, that makes you the idiot.

You'll need an insult a lot better than that to warrant a reply.... :roll:

Thanks for missing the point again idiot.

What was the point again?

Oh yes - that's right - you never actually had one... :roll:

[LotusGT1]

Smart comeback...Oh wait, it wasn't....

[RC45]

Smart comeback...Oh wait, it wasn't....

Now you are getting with the program... ;)

[LotusGT1]

Wow, you make missing the point into an artform.

Well done :o

[RC45]

Wow, you make missing the point into an artform.

Well done :o

I thought you were done?

BTW, when was the last time you drove an American-built performance sedan?

[LotusGT1]

When was the last time there was actually an american performance sedan produced before the CTS-V ?

Oh, wait, of course, how can I forget the Marauder :o

[RC45]

When was the last time there was actually an american performance sedan produced before the CTS-V ?

Oh, wait, of course, how can I forget the Marauder :o

Well - if you are so stupid as to think the last Mercury Marauder was a performance sedan (a car which I have driven a number of times) then all is lost.

The Marauder is too heavy and too under powered. Much like everything FoMoCo produces. Except for the current GT.

So - again, I ask, have you ever driven an American perfomance sedan?

I think we can safely assume you have not.

So you entire argument is based on heresay and rumour.

Tell you what - why not logoff, turn off the PC and get outside into the real world and drive a few of the cars you claim to know so much about.

Come back when you have something real to base your comments on.. mmmkay?

[LotusGT1]

Please tell me what all those performance sedans are abot which you are talking right now...

I can't see too many...

Oh, and while you're at it, please clarify what the fuck that has to do with this topic....

[RC45]

Please tell me what all those performance sedans are abot which you are talking right now...

I can't see too many...

Oh, and while you're at it, please clarify what the fuck that has to do with this topic....

You don't need to have "many" when 1 will suffice.

Performance per dollar / value for money / bang for the buck - that is the point.

[LotusGT1]

But what does Performance per dollar / value for money / bang for the buck have to do with what I said ?

[RC45]

But what does Performance per dollar / value for money / bang for the buck have to do with what I said ?

I don't know? What the fuck did you say?

[LotusGT1]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

[mit5005]

Haha this is so funny. And I think LotusGT1 shouldn't be talking like this if he has no fuckin clue what he is talkin about.

[RC45]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

Do you need a hug?

[mit5005]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

Do you need a hug?

I think he needs to get laid or something. :lol:

[X-ale]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

Do you need a hug?

:lol: hahahahaha would you give him one if he said yes?! Especially if he needs to get laid, hehehehe...

Anyway, just about that super dooper minivan market point in like the forst freaking page, isn't Japan the biggest minivan market with all those digipokemeabrakemon mods and whatnot?!

[LotusGT1]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

Do you need a hug?

I think he needs to get laid or something. :lol:

LOL, having fun with your right hand ? Lame-ball....

@RC, funny to see how you give up.

[RC45]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

Do you need a hug?

I think he needs to get laid or something. :lol:

LOL, having fun with your right hand ? Lame-ball....

@RC, funny to see how you give up.

Given up what? I am guessing you thought this was a battle of some sorts.. :roll:

Perhaps you hadn't heard - but arguing on the Internet is like competing in the special olympics - even if you win, you are still retarded. :)

[LotusGT1]

Battle...lol, yeah right.

You've given up the attempt to prove a point.

[X-ale]

even if you win, you are still retarded. :)

:lol:

[mit5005]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

Do you need a hug?

I think he needs to get laid or something. :lol:

LOL, having fun with your right hand ? Lame-ball....

@RC, funny to see how you give up.

Haha, you are taking this way to seriously man. This is a forum, not a debate or competition. And you are saying I am having fun with my right hand? You are the one who has so much time to post all this bs on Jabbasworld, I wonder what else you do while online.

[fabro_s]

Dont start this, my father owns a Corvette and its an amazing car, its really good, and my mom owns a merc and its really good too, I own a renault and its really good, so stop complaining!!

[LotusGT1]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

Do you need a hug?

I think he needs to get laid or something. :lol:

LOL, having fun with your right hand ? Lame-ball....

@RC, funny to see how you give up.

Haha, you are taking this way to seriously man. This is a forum, not a debate or competition. And you are saying I am having fun with my right hand? You are the one who has so much time to post all this bs on Jabbasworld, I wonder what else you do while online.

Looking at your registration date and your amount of posts I think you're spend the same amount of time around here.

I don't see this as a competition, but I hate misinformed people, even more when they show an arrogance they can't back up by a longshot. It's just a bit of entertainment in a few free minutes.

[RC45]

Learn how to read...for the fucking millionth time :o

Do you need a hug?

I think he needs to get laid or something. :lol:

LOL, having fun with your right hand ? Lame-ball....

@RC, funny to see how you give up.

Haha, you are taking this way to seriously man. This is a forum, not a debate or competition. And you are saying I am having fun with my right hand? You are the one who has so much time to post all this bs on Jabbasworld, I wonder what else you do while online.

Looking at your registration date and your amount of posts I think you're spend the same amount of time around here.

I don't see this as a competition, but I hate misinformed people, even more when they show an arrogance they can't back up by a longshot. It's just a bit of entertainment in a few free minutes.

I am far from misinformed. Just because I didn't post what you wanted to read when you wanted means jack shit.

I know I have forgotten more about performance car history/facts than you know.

Please just give it up already.

You are sounding more and more like a whiney little spoilt bitch as time goes on.

Many of us will paraphrase and stop short of posting doctoral disertations when we want to make abbreviated comments.

Why?

Becuase it gets old.

You on the other hand are one of those anal retentive fuckers that will quote the MSDS for racing fuel to prove your "superior facts" in a discussion - at which point all enjoyment and fellowship in the endevour is lost.

This is supposed to be a community of enthusiasts - but every now and then the anal rententives get out of hand because someone forgot to provide the specific mass of air as expressed in moles during a discussion. :roll: :roll:

Just get over yourself already.

I would like to see you try pull this shit in a crowded pub while out wioth your buddies.

You would get punched in the face in the first 30 seconds. So give it up already.

[LotusGT1]

If you wouldn't be such a selfrighteous asshole I would've dropped it a
long time ago. Your stunning arrogance is what keeps me replying.

LOL, if you would just reply in a decent matter this whole fucking discussion wouldn't have happened in the first place.

[RC45]

If you wouldn't be such a selfrighteous asshole I would've dropped it a
long time ago. Your stunning arrogance is what keeps me replying.

LOL, if you would just reply in a decent matter this whole fucking discussion wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Arrogance?

You are the one who presumes that the other does not know anything.

Your anal nature has precluded you from understanding the point at hand.

You are so caught up in the pieces - you are missing the whole.

[LotusGT1]

You did use the wrong assumptions to make a point. Wait, apart from the CTS-V is a great car you actually didn't have a point at all. I'm not anal, you're just too full of yourself, anyone that doesn't agree with you is an idiot and knows jack shit. I just replied in the same fashion as you always do. Funny that you point out your own flaws...

This is going in circkels....I'm done with you....

[RC45]

You did use the wrong assumptions to make a point. Wait, apart from the CTS-V is a great car you actually didn't have a point at all. I'm not anal, you're just too full of yourself, anyone that doesn't agree with you is an idiot and knows jack shit. I just replied in the same fashion as you always do. Funny that you point out your own flaws...

This is going in circkels....I'm done with you....

I am right.

At the perfomance levels we are talking about, laptimes are one of the only quantitative indicators of performance potential.

Why?

Because laptimes (especially for a very long and complex track) will be a summation of acceleration, braking and top speed.

In other words a summary of the potential that 1/4 mile time, 0-100-0 and top speed translated to a real-world achievement.

Period.

In this I am correct.

How would I know?

Because if I wasn't correct, then the manufacturers around the world would n ot be spending millions of dollars a year travelling to and from the Nurburgring to conduct said testing.

Short track time slips are only ONE aspect of the all around realisation of the potential hinted at by said times.

Hence, in the real world the Lotus Exige ius under powered/geared too short - irrespective of it's "handeling prowess".

Hence - the fastest time around the ring is posted by the most capable car.

Further more, since the CTS-V lapped faster than the M5 but slower than the Carrera GT - it is correct to state that the CTS-V is BETTER in that respect than the M5, but worse than the Carrera GT.

Period.

Do the same excercise with the M3, Z06 and Radical.

M3 last, Z06 second and Radical 1st.

[mit5005]

Well Lotus, the funny thing is that I am a student and I am on summer break right now so i have time on my hands to get more involved in this forum. You, on the other hand, are 24 and have more time than me to post here. Kinda sad.

And referring to your arguments, it is easy to see that you only care about what you think is right and not what the real facts are. And you are being a real jackass trying to explain your point which nobody is believing. You are just bias and even a little jealous I think.

[Toronto]

this fight is still going on?

CTS-V - good car
M5 - the car i (most people) want to drive home in

end done, no more stupid posts

[X-ale]

stupid posts This wasn't at all, I actually learned a lot... thanks to a "anal retentive"( :lol: ) and RC using The Force. Ok, maybe a bit too much but way entertaining and don't forget the educational value. :wink:

[LotusGT1]

Well Lotus, the funny thing is that I am a student and I am on summer break right now so i have time on my hands to get more involved in this forum. You, on the other hand, are 24 and have more time than me to post here. Kinda sad..

Ehhm, I'm a college student myself who had his last exams about 3 weeks ago. Hence the fact I'm having time enough.

And referring to your arguments, it is easy to see that you only care about what you think is right and not what the real facts are. And you are being a real jackass trying to explain your point which nobody is believing. You are just bias and even a little jealous I think.

LOL, you didn't even try to read it all. Bias ? Jealous ? LOL, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Looking at your previous contributions I'm not surprised....

[mit5005]

And referring to your arguments, it is easy to see that you only care about what you think is right and not what the real facts are. And you are being a real jackass trying to explain your point which nobody is believing. You are just bias and even a little jealous I think.

LOL, you didn't even try to read it all. Bias ? Jealous ? LOL, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Looking at your previous contributions I'm not surprised....

Actually I think I do have an idea, you are just bias towards European built cars and will say anything to try and make American cars look bad. I mean how can you not associate handling with lap times? It surprises me that someone as arrogant and stupid as you are can be in college.

[X-ale]

Does College = University?! Cuz he's a bit old to still be in college no? I mean, I was in college from 17 to 20... Maybe that could explain somethings :?

[T-Bird]

Ok if he went to college (same as University) at 18 like most people in the US some even later 19-20 he could still be in school and if he is studying for a Masters or doctorate then he could easily still be in school. Or he is doing graduate work so it's possible.

[X-ale]

^^oh ok... in Quebec we have a 2 year college program before getting in a University. 3 to 4 years if you party that is. Since it's right after high-school which is normally finished between 15 and 17 that would mean that by 21 your in a University. Unless you went for a technical program and those would last at most 5 years, so if ya still party hard, by 23 your out. But i guess it could be easy to butch it up and still be in school till your 25. If ya dropped and went back after a couple thats another story of course.

[T-Bird]

yeah at first I was torn between subjects so I'm still going to a Local College and then I will go to a career specific program at another College/University so I will be behind 2 years when I go to a big time school but I don't mind it.

[LotusGT1]

I'm doing my master year in Economics at a dutch university. That's quite normal for my age. You start university at 18-19, and it takes you at least 4 years to finish it. If you do something besides college, it will take you a little longer. That much for that.

How in the world can you direct out of the few post I made around here I have a bias for european cars ? My first car was japanese, and I've owned a Lincoln for a while. I don't try to make american cars look bad, have you actually read the threads ? Sjeez...get a clue...

If you think I didn't associate handling with laptimes you need to learn how to read. All I said that faster laptimes don't equal better handling per se. And that's a simple FACT.

[graywolf624]

'm doing my master year in Economics at a dutch university.

Senior year or masters degree?

Lost in the translation.

[mit5005]

Lotus, I think you need to read the threads again so maybe you can get a clue.


If you think I didn't associate handling with laptimes you need to learn how to read. All I said that faster laptimes don't equal better handling per se. And that's a simple FACT.

And I think everybody agrees with me that if the cars are similar in acceleration performance, then the one with the faster lap times handle a little better. Of course this doesn't apply to let's say a Koenigsegg versus an Elise or something.

[LotusGT1]

Last year -> Going for my master degree, probably called senior year at your place....

[TransAm]

actually the Focus is built in Canada

and built in Germany or Belgium (I forget which). Some VWs are built in Mexi, some in Germany, some Hondas are built in UK, some in US, some in JP etc etc...

[RC45]

MAn - talk about digging up old wounds... :lol: