600hp CTS Super V confirmed? Bye-bye M5/E55/RS6... ;)

[RC45]

Building on from the images previously posted - rumours are now "confirmed" (what ever that mean in real-world terms) that the GM guys are working on a limited number (500) of 600hp CTS Super V's....

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=09818491

What was that about the next M5 V10 dominating this sector??? :D :lol:


We’re told this beast is the forerunner for the maximum General Motors Performance Division Caddy, the CTS Super V. Available direct from GM for about $65,000, Super V features a 600-hp engine, carbon fiber hood and fenders, and that scoop for getting more cooling air in and around the engine bay.

Once GM engineers get done running the Nürburgring, they’ll get down to the business of building just 500 limited-edition Super Vs.


Now wouldn't this just upset the RS/AMG/M car brigade if this is real??? :D

http://www.autoweek.com/weekart/2004/0531/0531caddyex_main.jpg

http://www.autoweek.com/weekart/2004/0531/0531caddyex_profile.jpg

http://www.autoweek.com/weekart/2004/0531/0531caddyex_rear.jpg

[Sm@ck]

Building on from the images previously posted - rumours are now "confirmed" (what ever that mean in real-world terms) that the GM guys are working on a limited number (500) of 600hp CTS Super V's....

Now wouldn't this just upset the RS/AMGM car brigade if this is real??? :D



Nope because in EU no one gives a damn about GM cars, and in the US it will still be more prestigous to have a M BMW, or AMG Mercedes.

[RC45]

Building on from the images previously posted - rumours are now "confirmed" (what ever that mean in real-world terms) that the GM guys are working on a limited number (500) of 600hp CTS Super V's....

Now wouldn't this just upset the RS/AMGM car brigade if this is real??? :D



Nope because in EU no one gives a damn about GM cars, and in the US it will still be more prestigous to have a M BMW, or AMG Mercedes.

Aw... getting upset an jealous because yet ANOTHER non-euro car laps the 'ring quicker than the previous over-priced BMW or Audi? ;)

[T-Bird]

owning ANY car that is 1 of 500 is more prestigious no matter who makes it. you european whiners need to swallow your pride and accept that fact.

[stradale]

I agree with sm@ck. Hardly anyone here in Europe would buy one, me included. I would obviously respect the car for what it can do and I'm sure there would be a small group of people that would buy it for that fact alone and kick some ass on the 'Ring. But I simply wouldn't want to be seen in a Caddy. I hate the looks of that car and that matters to me just as well as how it handles.

It's true that hardly anyone in Europe cares for the American GM cars. Sales are very very low and I don't see that change in short time.

[DanielW]

IMO it looks much better then the upcoming M5.

[fedezyl]

Very cool news, i've liked the CTS the first time I saw it in real life....well...the looks are a bit on the quirky side, but it's always good when another saloon comes to stirr up BMW and the likes... :D Congrats to Caddy for getting his act a bit more together and try to build something else than a large boat for the road!

[Sm@ck]

owning ANY car that is 1 of 500 is more prestigious no matter who makes it. you european whiners need to swallow your pride and accept that fact.

Hey I was stating a fact, I was not stating my opinion. I never said the car sucks. How ever when people buy a car they also purchase an "image".
Now in europe the only popular GM cars are opel/vauxhalls which are not considered to be upper market cars.
Now I know that in the US Cadillac had a problem with their image. The cars where considered not to be cool (only weathy old people drove caddis). They are slowly changing the image around.
As for this car being faster around the ring than an AMG and an M, it may be. I still would take an M5 over this or an AMG becuase I prefer its looks, and I associate myself more with BMW than with the other 2 brands mentioned.

Well just have to wait and see for the final product. I do find the hood a bit ricey though...

[yg60m]

Now wouldn't this just upset the RS/AMG/M car brigade if this is real???


yes ... if it's real :wink: but that would be nice, i like the CTS .

[RC45]

How ever when people buy a car they also purchase an "image".

And for all those "image conscious" yuppies at Starbucks there are AMG/RS and M Cars - for the rest that know what they want and don't need some marketing or Bangle-image maker to show them, there are these types of cars - where form follows function - and might I add it is quite a powerful form.. ;)

[nthfinity]

thanks for the update, RC :-D
500+ hp doesnt suck

[espen]

Aw... getting upset an jealous because yet ANOTHER non-euro car laps the 'ring quicker than the previous over-priced BMW or Audi? ;)

Just out of curiousity, which non-euros would that be and why would it upset us? Sport Auto rated both the 350Z and the NSX-R highly and now runs an NSX-R at the 24h.

I'm happy to see that Caddy finally has decided to make a real car and make it work at the ring. if it works there, it will work anywhere. US cars work great in the US, but havent always worked equally well here. If they make a decent car then I guess it will sell once the lead sled image wears off. But you have to make a good car. the Corvette wont sell on account of being domestic over here y'know.

Yes I've driven a C5 and i much prefer the owners 993 Carerra 2 to it. The Vette has good straight line speed and good brakes, but just cant cope with regular worn roads - whereas the 911 just dances along on whatever surface you put it on.

Now amaze us with an awasome C6 and see the tables turn. Its that easy.

[PATo355]

Well it certainly dont look that bad , but i think it will have problems being more agile than the M/RS , lack of technology and quality as always happens with american cars , even considering that being a 500 limited run it will be certainly more exclusive than the europeans counterpart , and less expensive too , i think its a winner ... :(

[SL55 AMG]

IMO even if this is completly true, Cadillac does not have the clientel for a product like this. and as someone pointed out, in Europe ppl dont give a shit about American cars.

[TT]

Well, I hope this is seriously true because I already can't wait to see the first reviews of such beast :D

[RC45]

Aw... getting upset an jealous because yet ANOTHER non-euro car laps the 'ring quicker than the previous over-priced BMW or Audi? ;)

Just out of curiousity, which non-euros would that be and why would it upset us? Sport Auto rated both the 350Z and the NSX-R highly and now runs an NSX-R at the 24h.

I'm happy to see that Caddy finally has decided to make a real car and make it work at the ring. if it works there, it will work anywhere. US cars work great in the US, but havent always worked equally well here. If they make a decent car then I guess it will sell once the lead sled image wears off. But you have to make a good car. the Corvette wont sell on account of being domestic over here y'know.

Yes I've driven a C5 and i much prefer the owners 993 Carerra 2 to it. The Vette has good straight line speed and good brakes, but just cant cope with regular worn roads - whereas the 911 just dances along on whatever surface you put it on.

Now amaze us with an awasome C6 and see the tables turn. Its that easy.

You obviously have not driven the Z06 - unlike the regular C5 laps the Nurburgring faster than any of the cars you have mentioned.. ;)

So no need to wait for the C6 to beat em.

The CTS-V has also already lapped the 'ring faster than the M5 ... so you were saying?

[RC45]

IMO even if this is completly true, Cadillac does not have the clientel for a product like this. and as someone pointed out, in Europe ppl dont give a shit about American cars.

There are more than enough people who WANT a fast, great handeling sedan who will snap up every 600hp CTS Super V....

they won't need to (or want to) ship any to Europe.. even the Z06 didn't make it there as an official import - something about the muffler being too loud... :roll:

LOL :lol:

[RC45]

Well it certainly dont look that bad , but i think it will have problems being more agile than the M/RS , lack of technology and quality as always happens with american cars , even considering that being a 500 limited run it will be certainly more exclusive than the europeans counterpart , and less expensive too , i think its a winner ... :(

Remember, the CTS-V is already more agile than the M5 and RS6... :)

Now it gets 200hp more.. :twisted:

[blah]

ID STILL rather have a M5, Since i am in a campaign againest cadillac. I have beef with them, we will fight over it too.

[espen]

No, I havent driven a Z06 as the are not sold here. Have'nt seen any lap times on a Z06 at the Ring, but I gather you have so please enlighten me. If it breaks into the 7s then I'm impressed.

Theres more to selling a serious performance car than raw figures. The C5 is a flop in europe, and frankly I'm not surprised. You cant sell panel gaps and an interior like that at Porsche prices here.

Either way, I don't understand your confrontational attitude, whats the big deal? I've lived in the US and driven loads of US cars. Like I said, some of them are ok over there, but generally they're not doing so well over here.

[RC45]

No, I havent driven a Z06 as the are not sold here. Have'nt seen any lap times on a Z06 at the Ring, but I gather you have so please enlighten me. If it breaks into the 7s then I'm impressed.

Theres more to selling a serious performance car than raw figures. The C5 is a flop in europe, and frankly I'm not surprised. You cant sell panel gaps and an interior like that at Porsche prices here.

Either way, I don't understand your confrontational attitude, whats the big deal? I've lived in the US and driven loads of US cars. Like I said, some of them are ok over there, but generally they're not doing so well over here.

What confrontational attitude?

You are making claims - yet have done no home work... I am simply setting the record straight.

The Z06 lapped the 'ring in 7'56" - that puts it in some very rarified company.

I am also not one to claim that US cars are what they are not.

For many years the common domestic US sedan has been a pile of stinking shit - and could not go, stop or turn - in fact MOST of them still are.

I am not making ageneral sweeping statement that ALL US cars ruel - far from it - what I am saying is that in various classes Europe and Japan no longer "lead by heritage" anymore.

That's what I am saying.

:)

[Vansquish]

Well...it may well outperform the other cars on offer...but I still think that the German and even the British (Jag) cars which will be "competing" with it are in a different league...Cadillac just doesn't have the cachet that the others do, even....either way I'm still looking forward to it hehe

[RC45]

Well...it may well outperform the other cars on offer...but I still think that the German and even the British (Jag) cars which will be "competing" with it are in a different league...Cadillac just doesn't have the cachet that the others do, even....either way I'm still looking forward to it hehe

LOL - yep I am betting the last middle-aged yuppie in his 996 I left behind was flipping through his owner's manual looking for the entry under "cachet" - it was cross-referenced under "loser"... ;) LOL :lol:

[schnell318]

So when is this CTS coming out? I would really like to see if it can lap the ring faster than the upcoming E60 M5...guess we´ll have to wait. Even though I don´t like american cars in general (cause most of them look, drive and are built like shit) i´m kind of curious how this car will do. :)

[666fast]

For many years the common domestic US sedan has been a pile of stinking shit - and could not go, stop or turn



And you should know, you had a Ford Taurus! :P
I also know, I've got it's Chevy equivelent, the Celebrity! :lol:

I like the car and I'd love to have a go in one. Especially a 600bhp one! I don't think you guys in Europe have to worry about it, if the rumors are true of only 500 being made, I doubt it'll be sold there. If one ends up there, it'll most likely be imported. Even then, it would only be a small handfull of them. If they are sold in Europe, I'd love to see one on Top Gear and 5th Gear. I'm sure Clarkson would have something funny to say and Tiff would give it a proper flogging.

I really don't care which one is quicker, I lack the ability to take anyone of these 'bahn stormers to their limit, so I'll go with the one thats the easiest for me to actually obtain one of these days. A used CTS-V will be in my price range in a few years.
As for which is better overall, I'm sure BMW would be in the lead with the Merc and Audi behind them. The Caddy CTS-V would most likely come dead last in terms of quality and finish. Too put that into comparison, just look at it's price. Although, for it's price, the Caddy should not have such a crappy interior. Which is a major downside, but I can overlook that. Especially if I'm getting equal, if not better, performance for a fraction of the price.
Then there is the tuning options if the owner decides to do so. IMO, the CTS-V wins hands down on that one.

I'll take one in Black please.

[blah]

Most people who buy a Z06, do not care about the interior, they just care about that V-8 and that suspension

[Schwalbe]

It’s really a good news this confirmation. Thanks RC for info. I was not sure that GM would produce this powerful sedan. Moreover, I hope this CTS Super V will have a commercial success, because I like this badass horsepower monster's. In addition this CTS Super V will be definitively a classic muscle car’s.

Small anecdote:

I showed last week to my Grandfather the pictures of the CTS-V (Plus, now Super) He was astonished to see how Cadillac is now. My Grandfather was an engineer at Cadillac in Detroit in the 30’ and 40’. He worked with Owen Nacker, the engineer behind the development of the Cadillac V-16. He has 94 years old now.

[AlienDB7]

You guys remember the Italdesign Corvette Moray concept from last year? The donar car is actually the C5 driven by Mr. Giugiaro as a daily driver for over a year!

[hemi_fan]

I think its an amazing car. Caddilac is trying to regain its status as a high-end luxury car. They are building a whole bunch of new high-end cars now to go back to the old days when Caddilac was right up there with Mercs and BMWs in terms of prestige. I think its a good plan, because cadilacs have been lacking in the past few decades.

[Sm@ck]

You obviously have not driven the Z06 - unlike the regular C5 laps the Nurburgring faster than any of the cars you have mentioned.. ;)

So no need to wait for the C6 to beat em.

The CTS-V has also already lapped the 'ring faster than the M5 ... so you were saying?

CAn you please reference the laptime? Otherwise it is just pure speculation, and does not help your argument. I could only find this one made in 1997, and normally this site is up to date:
Horst von Saurma (D) Chevrolet Corvette, 344 PS, 1505 kg
1997-07-01, sport auto Supertest 20.000 km 142.615 km/h 8 40 000 (thats 8 minutes and 40 seconds)
http://nurburgring.de/?rubrik=rekorde&order=Distance

since this was in 1997, I guess this is the old C5.

Anyway I am sure the car will be very potent, just find it odd they would limit it to 500. I guess they are using this car more as a marketing gimmick...

[nthfinity]

i do believe RC posted that the Z06 hit it in 7:54, or 7:56

[RC45]

You obviously have not driven the Z06 - unlike the regular C5 laps the Nurburgring faster than any of the cars you have mentioned.. ;)

So no need to wait for the C6 to beat em.

The CTS-V has also already lapped the 'ring faster than the M5 ... so you were saying?

CAn you please reference the laptime? Otherwise it is just pure speculation, and does not help your argument. I could only find this one made in 1997, and normally this site is up to date:
Horst von Saurma (D) Chevrolet Corvette, 344 PS, 1505 kg
1997-07-01, sport auto Supertest 20.000 km 142.615 km/h 8 40 000 (thats 8 minutes and 40 seconds)
http://nurburgring.de/?rubrik=rekorde&order=Distance

since this was in 1997, I guess this is the old C5.

Anyway I am sure the car will be very potent, just find it odd they would limit it to 500. I guess they are using this car more as a marketing gimmick...
The 7:56 is the official time GM recorded at the 'ring with John Heinrichy at the wheel, feel free to call the Corvette Museum in Bowling Green Kentucky for validation.

And unlike the BMW and Porsche times posted, the car was wearing non-shaved STOCK tyres (the same ones it is sold with) and STOCK suspension settings....

1997 to 2004 - thats 7 years where I come from - I am sure you have no problem believing that in 7 years Porsche, BMW, Audi and even Mercedes would have made major improvements even within the same model range - why then is it so hard for you to believe that the Corvette is capabale fo similar change?

Oh - and THANK YOU for pointiong out he HUGE difference between the Z06 and the C5 Coupe... 7:56 vs 8:40 --- that is why I refer to the stock C5 Coupe as the "hairdresser's" car... :P

[Sm@ck]

I am sure it is a lot faster than the old car RC45, I am just a bit sceptical about manufacturer claims on performance of any kind. These figures are practically never reached by outsiders, thats why I prefer independant sources. Anyway I have no beef with the corvette (especially the new one), sure the interior could be better, but nothing stops me from going to a tuner, and throwing 10$ grand at improving it. The exterior of the corvette has always appealled to me, very sexy.

I have to say though, if they make that Ford (GT? not the GT40, you know the muslce car) I think that will be my new favorite american car. Provided they dont change it too mcuh from the concept and add cup holders!

[RC45]

I am sure it is a lot faster than the old car RC45, I am just a bit sceptical about manufacturer claims on performance of any kind. These figures are practically never reached by outsiders, thats why I prefer independant sources. Anyway I have no beef with the corvette (especially the new one), sure the interior could be better, but nothing stops me from going to a tuner, and throwing 10$ grand at improving it. The exterior of the corvette has always appealled to me, very sexy.

I have to say though, if they make that Ford (GT? not the GT40, you know the muslce car) I think that will be my new favorite american car. Provided they dont change it too mcuh from the concept and add cup holders!

Remember John Heinrichy is NOT a GM employee - he is the C5 GT and C5R race car driver - don't hate on the guy because he knows how to drive Corvettes fast... ;)

[nthfinity]

I have to say though, if they make that Ford (GT? not the GT40, you know the muslce car) I think that will be my new favorite american car. Provided they dont change it too mcuh from the concept and add cup holders!


somehow, Ford decided to make the GT (not GT40, that name is copywritten, and owned by a company somwehere in the UK) besides, the GT is 44" tall, not 40 lol
production specs \/\/\/\/\/\/\/
http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9442

[ferrari550]

i do not care how much power they throw in that thing, i would still rather have the m5.

[Sm@ck]

somehow, Ford decided to make the GT (not GT40, that name is copywritten, and owned by a company somwehere in the UK) besides, the GT is 44" tall, not 40 lol
production specs \/\/\/\/\/\/\/
http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9442

Thanks nthfinity but I actually meant the Ford Mustang GT-R
http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8941&highlight=

But I like the Ford GT too, even though it will be a little beyond my league for quite a while.

[nthfinity]

But I like the Ford GT too, even though it will be a little beyond my league for quite a while.


lol, too true here as well. the GT-R concept was primarily done by Roush... if thats any hint as to where it will go

[gtx28]

Most people who buy a Z06, do not care about the interior, they just care about that V-8 and that suspension

I dont know about that the C5 vettes, including the Z06 are very comfortable, and very all around enjoyable cars. The longest ive ever been in one was for around 4 hours, and the z was an excellent ride(140mph cruize that was alot of fun hehe). There are a few things lacking but all in all it is an impressive car if you take the time to look and drive one. No one seems to look at history in these arguements(or diffence or oppinion whatever.) In the past foreign manufacturers in many cases were far from the best. In fact if you visit HongKong today what do the wealthiest business people ride in? Not BMW or Mercedes, They ride in Cadillac, and Lincolin always black too lol at least that was my experience. I guess its a matter of perspective. Either way I like what Cadillac is comin up with, the CTS V is a really fun drive, Im lookin forward to the new super V, and I havent driven the XLR, and I also lookin forward to the V series XLR if its released. Lots of great cars from GM comin up!!!!!

[blah]

Ive ridden in and revved up a XLR, the seats are coozy enough, but it still deserves to die cuz its a Caddy! Jaguar Fo Life!

[tanelvali]

I do believe that in Europe the M cars are still very dominent and only very few buyers want to get something else..

[nthfinity]

I do believe that in Europe the M cars are still very dominent and only very few buyers want to get something else..

not that im living in Europe, but im sure there are enough people who let the numbers do the talking :wink:
V8
6 speed trans
5 seating copacity
4 doors
3 fewer cups of coffee needed
:) 200mph? ?

[Schwalbe]

not that im living in Europe, but im sure there are enough people who let the numbers do the talking


I share your enthusiasm nthfinity, because I'm sure this CTS-V will have success.


V8
6 speed trans
5 seating copacity
4 doors
3 fewer cups of coffee needed
200mph? ?


I buy :lol: :D

[nthfinity]

today, i spoke with a GM engineer heavily invovled in the production of the Cadillac CTS-V, and Super-V.

he suggested today that even with the mini "ring" at the Milford, MI proving grounds, he sees even more testing abroad in Germany.

he also suggested the car will makes its debut in the January NAIAS in 2005; and very few have seen the car; which is under heavy development, and suggested the hood scoop is for cooling porposes; but wouldnt devulge much information on the details of the engine, or if it is developed by in-house SLP, or external such as how the ZR-1 engine was produced. Full limited production is more then just a pipedream. :-D

"it truly is an amazing car, ive driven it around the Nordschiefe" 8) :D

[hemi_fan]

lol... they just keep pumpin out more and more horse power
next thing u know, they'll be 'confirming' a new model, my guess is it will be called the "Extra-Super-V" and they'll tack on another 200hp to make an ever 800... lol

But this car will be awesome, and exclusive. Id like to see it race other saloons.

[Zarkoff500]

Is there any possibility that this CTS Super V is just a mule for the next Z06 engine? To test durability and all that? Why would GM make a car that could possibly take away sales from it's halo vehicle? Perhaps GM with Cadillac is going in a direction that wasn't expected by taking on the mighty M5, but is that smart marketing if there is a 600hp CTS and also a 500 hp or more C6 that wouldn't be priced all that far apart? I didn't think that car makers wanted to compete with other makers under their corporate umbrella.

[graywolf624]

Is there any possibility that this CTS Super V is just a mule for the next Z06 engine? To test durability and all that? Why would GM make a car that could possibly take away sales from it's halo vehicle? Perhaps GM with Cadillac is going in a direction that wasn't expected by taking on the mighty M5, but is that smart marketing if there is a 600hp CTS and also a 500 hp or more C6 that wouldn't be priced all that far apart? I didn't think that car makers wanted to compete with other makers under their corporate umbrella.

I don't think the cts would compete with the corvette even with the same hsp. The corvette is a 2 seater sports car. The cts is a sports sedan. Those are two seperate markets. Furthermore, while corvette has always been gms top performance car(honestly even with the same hsp a corvette would be far faster then the cts due to weight) caddilac has always been the innovation leader in terms of luxury. Luxury in the modern era includes but is not limited too performance. Corvette on the other hand.. should and does toss out the luxury in favor of performance value.

[SilviaS15Cwest]

I think it looks better and it will be faster than the CTS, but I still like the looks of the new M5 better. Hopefully more cars like this will start a hp war. HP wars are always good. :D

[ahmedgiyab]

The CTS is an American Opel Omega.... :wink:

and we all know that the Omega was never a competition for MB and BMW...... :D

[amanthapar]

americans can build cars with 1000bhp .. if they wanted to ...

but its not about staright line speed.. its about handling and euro cars are superior in that department....

i think americans like to race in a staright line cos they know they cant build a good handling car... no wonder they started the idea of having a quarter mile drag race...

if any of u guys think im wrong then answer this question : why do bmw and merc and audi and porsche and ferrari and aston martin and so so so on on on
sell so well in the americas?
there are so many bmws in usa in fact highest market in the world for bmw apart from germany.

[graywolf624]

they know they cant build a good handling car

CTS-V
viper
saleen s7
Z06...

need I go on?

[RC45]

they know they cant build a good handling car

CTS-V
viper
saleen s7
Z06...

need I go on?

Yah - I don't think he realised the CTS-V lapped the 'Ring quicker than the M5.. ;P

[T-Bird]

americans can build cars with 1000bhp .. if they wanted to ...

but its not about staright line speed.. its about handling and euro cars are superior in that department....

i think americans like to race in a staright line cos they know they cant build a good handling car... no wonder they started the idea of having a quarter mile drag race...

if any of u guys think im wrong then answer this question : why do bmw and merc and audi and porsche and ferrari and aston martin and so so so on on on
sell so well in the americas?
there are so many bmws in usa in fact highest market in the world for bmw apart from germany.

OK we do have 1000hp cars called Lingenfelters that can out handle alot of european cars.
Some better handling cars have been listed.
The companies you listed sell so well here because there are a lot of rich people here and they buy them for the name there are alot of people that own foreign and domestic cars. Why do people pay outrageous prices for American cars in Europe? they can't be all that bad now can they? Hell a Corvette costs an arm and a leg in europe and I can't imagine the price of the Viper but people buy them.
Atleast BMW doesn't sell their crappy ass diesels here because they know they won't sell. My uncle owns a BMW 530i (the new one) but still drives his camaro all the time.
They started 1/4 mile drag racing back before your parents were born back when cars didn't handle that well no matter what part of the world they were from.

[Toronto]

they know they cant build a good handling car

CTS-V
viper
saleen s7
Z06...

need I go on?

Yah - I don't think he realised the CTS-V lapped the 'Ring quicker than the M5.. ;P

ok lets settle this i can make a list of eurpean cars that can out handle any american car (not after market like Lingenfelters)

and you "need to go on" at least more then 4 cause:
lotus elise, vx turbo, noble, and lets just say m3 are 4 right there that can out handle those cars

[T-Bird]

well the Shelby Cobra and Series 1
Ford GT
suprisingly the Crossfire (mercedes frame)
new Magnum/300C (mercedes frame)
Cobra R
more to come I'm sure...

Are you sure that the M3 can out handle the Saleen S7...

[graywolf624]

ok lets settle this i can make a list of eurpean cars that can out handle any american car (not after market like Lingenfelters)

Yeah.. and how much do these cars cost.. Remember only one american car even costs more then 100000.


and you "need to go on" at least more then 4 cause:
lotus elise, vx turbo, noble, and lets just say m3 are 4 right there that can out handle those cars

an m3 isnt going to out handle a lightenfelder.. It wont outhandle a zo6 or a ctsv

vxtubro, lotus elise are same car. Noble is like that saleen s7.. not exactly your normal car...

Add to list:
Chevy camaro with 1le suspension pack.
Pontiac Firehawk
upcoming pontiac solstice.
GTO
mosler 9500
Lincoln LS


Also you talked in another thread about how merc owns chrysler controlling..So how bout we count the new jags, mazdas, aston martins, saabs, holdens, as american. Needless to say quite a few of the pieces and design were helped along by americans and the design decisions were led by americans.

[blah]

Ford Focus SVT handles like a motherfucker, compared to all your Euro Hot Hatches. SRT4, SVT Cobra, Corvette W/WO Z51 Suspension.

[amanthapar]

err.. okay it laped faster than a m5... BUT U REALLY THINK IT CAN HANDLE BETTER ? ..... u think it can give u that much thrill?

come on guys..
CTS-V < new m5

saleen s7 <carrera gt, enzo , SLR hahahah
Z06... u call that good handling?< porsche carrera 4 !

[Tomerville]

Nope because in EU no one gives a damn about GM cars, and in the US it will still be more prestigous to have a M BMW, or AMG Mercedes.


Not necessarily true. Those are baught as RC said by the pretentious Starbuck-generation yuppies. And old peope.

[amanthapar]

hmmm..... i guess this will never end...
but the fact remains there are a higher number of euro cars that are better than usa cars..

tell me a car that can corner faster than a enzo has to be american ..

oh btw TBIRD THE NEW FORD GT 40 IS MOSTLY EUROPEAN.. suspension, brakes i know for sure .. engine is american styling was from the orginal GT 40 1967 which was build and engineered in a UK ford division where british were employed , they just used american money....
crossfire ? no way ! it has merc stuff yeah..

DIESEL? WTF IS WRONG WITH ... U GUYS HAVE CRAPPY EMISSION LAWS THATS WHY DIESEL CARS AREnt ABLE TO BE SOLD THERE... AND WHY ARE U RANTING ON A DIESEL? WHO WANTS A DIESEL ANYWA?

[T-Bird]

oh btw TBIRD THE NEW FORD GT 40 IS MOSTLY EUROPEAN.. suspension, brakes i know for sure .. engine is american styling was from the orginal GT 40 1967 which was build and engineered in a UK ford division where british were employed , they just used american money....
crossfire ? no way ! it has merc stuff yeah..


OK first off it's NOT the GT40 it's the Ford GT and I don't give a crap who makes the parts the car is built in America and designed by Americans and funded by Americans and that makes it an American sports car period. And if you have driven a Crossfire then you would know it handles pretty well considering I didn't expect much being based off a Bitch Mercedes but it was quite a nice car. It handled better than the SLK320 I drove.

[amanthapar]

hmm... which slk new one or old one??
LOL definietly not better than new one... i dont think its even out

if u have driven the old then cos u drove the 320 the new is the 350... thats 7 fucking years old mate.. HOW CAN U BE SO STUPID.. crossfire came out last year... compare it to the 2004 slk... then post a message back ...
be fair okay..

[T-Bird]

DIESEL? WTF IS WRONG WITH ... U GUYS HAVE CRAPPY EMISSION LAWS THATS WHY DIESEL CARS AREnt ABLE TO BE SOLD THERE... AND WHY ARE U RANTING ON A DIESEL? WHO WANTS A DIESEL ANYWA?

Dipshit we have tons of Diesel Trucks here they don't have Emissions testing on Diesel engines it's just that not too many people want them, Mind you VW sells the Golf and Beetle TDi here and they don't sell that well

[amanthapar]

okay.. those r kinda small .. what are they sub 30000$ ? anywaz i dont care abt diesel..

[T-Bird]

hmm... which slk new one or old one??
LOL definietly not better than new one... i dont think its even out

if u have driven the old then cos u drove the 320 the new is the 350... thats 7 fucking years old mate.. HOW CAN U BE SO STUPID.. crossfire came out last year... compare it to the 2004 slk... then post a message back ...
be fair okay..

It's based on the old SLK320 chassis so you would expect them to be the same but it's not the Crossfire was suprisingly better and the SLK320 I drove was a 2003 model, the one the Crossfire was specifically built on.

[amanthapar]

yeah then it should...

hmmm the 2004 slk then must really be good .. if u think the crossfire is good :wink:

[graywolf624]

come on guys..
CTS-V < new m5


Z06... u call that good handling?< porsche carrera 4 !

Based on what? Your opinion? Numbers certainly dont reflect that. Track performance doesnt either.


tell me a car that can corner faster than a enzo has to be american ..

Tell me an american car that costs as much as the enzo..Tell me a german or british, or french, or japanese car that corners like the enzo..
So I guess those cars cant corner.


oh btw TBIRD THE NEW FORD GT 40 IS MOSTLY EUROPEAN.. suspension, brakes i know for sure .. engine is american styling was from the orginal GT 40 1967 which was build and engineered in a UK ford division where british were employed , they just used american money....

Incorrect.. That was true of the original gt40.. Not the gt. The engine is definitly made here. The suspension design and how it is fitted is done here. Almost no car companies fabricate all the parts, but using someone elses brakes and shocks in conjunction with your design hardly means its that other countries car. The shocks are a small piece of an overall puzzle.. Throwing technology at a problem doesnt fix it unless its done correctly.


WHO WANTS A DIESEL ANYWA?

Exactly, we don't .. you do. And diesels arent not here due to emissions. There not sold here cause no one wants them. The few diesel cars that have sold in america have been terrible flops(gm made a few caddys that sold almost none).

[T-Bird]

oh btw TBIRD THE NEW FORD GT 40 IS MOSTLY EUROPEAN.. suspension, brakes i know for sure .. engine is american styling was from the orginal GT 40 1967 which was build and engineered in a UK ford division where british were employed , they just used american money....

Incorrect.. That was true of the original gt40.. Not the gt. The engine is definitly made here. The suspension design and how it is fitted is done here. Almost no car companies fabricate all the parts, but using someone elses brakes and shocks in conjunction with your design hardly means its that other countries car. The shocks are a small piece of an overall puzzle.. Throwing technology at a problem doesnt fix it unless its done correctly.




Finally someone agrees with me There are cars from all over the world that use German Electronics (Bosch) and shocks (Bilstien), All over the world Brembo (Italian) brakes are used All over the world American Money funds car companies. Eibach is used the world over in OEM specs. Does this make all those MG's run with Mustang engines American because the heart of the car is American? NO.

Are all the cars that have BOSE stereos or Monsoon make them American or the Mercedes with the Motorola hands free systems are they American?

And are all the Ferrari's including the Enzo using Bridgestones American?

If anyone can think of more American parts on other cars please add them on.

[RC45]

err.. okay it laped faster than a m5... BUT U REALLY THINK IT CAN HANDLE BETTER ? ..... u think it can give u that much thrill?

I vote this to be THE dumbest thing EVER posted on JW... EVER!!!!

This yahoo is saying that if car A. laps the Nurburgring faster than car B. then we can NOT conclude car A handles better than car B...

So by your logic then, the Porsche Carrera GT has worse handling than a bus.. after all just because the GT laps the 'Ring faster than a bus, does not mean it handles better...

Wow... :roll:


come on guys..
CTS-V < new m5

So - where this new M5? You driven one yet? :roll: This is akin to saying the 2011 Lamborghini XXX will beat the 1962 Ferrai GTO... :roll:


saleen s7 <carrera gt, enzo , SLR hahahah

Obviously you have never seen the S7 race... (but wait, the Enzo and SLR don't race...)


Z06... u call that good handling?< porsche carrera 4 !
I guess that is why at all levels of GT racing they have to throw the GT2 and GT3 at th Z06 to be competive... unless you are saying ALL those Porsche teams should just field a Carrera 4 and they will be able to win.... :roll:

[T-Bird]

saleen s7 <carrera gt, enzo , SLR hahahah

Obviously you have never seen the S7 race... (but wait, the Enzo and SLR don't race...)


Z06... u call that good handling?< porsche carrera 4 !
I guess that is why at all levels of GT racing they have to throw the GT2 and GT3 at th Z06 to be competive... unless you are saying ALL those Porsche teams should just field a Carrera 4 and they will be able to win.... :roll:

Well the S7 did come in 3rd today at mid-Ohio right behind 2 Corvettes so it definitely can run big considering it wasn' tfactory sponsered

Aren't the Porsches actually in the class below the Corvettes atleast with the LeMans series?

[blah]

if the S7 can find a team with good funds. It is over for whatever class its in. I love those beast.

[RC45]

Yeah - I am not talking class the C5R is in... (after all they on Le Man 2 years running.. - unless this yahoo thinks that proves nothing.. :lol: ) but rather the class the Z06 runs in .. I think that is GT.

[T-Bird]

it would be in GT to be up against the Porsches.

[blah]

Screw the sissy porsches. We all know that all porsche has to do is put the Boxster S in.

[T-Bird]

no that would be WAY too much for those crazy Lambo's and Vettes.

[Toronto]

And are all the Ferrari's including the Enzo using Bridgestones American?


if you trying to correct someone at lest get your facts right

Bridgestones = Japanese
not american

And the original GT40 was more british then american

[RC45]

And the original GT40 was more british then american

Ok smartass... name the percentages.

What percent by weight was British, adn what percent by weight American?

And do the same excercise by volume, then again by actual engineering input and finally money.... ;)


In order to get into the business of racing with minimum delay, a subsidiary company called Ford Advanced Vehicles was set up at Slough in England under the Managing Directorship of John Wyer, well known for his long and successful association with Aston Martin, who won the Manufacturers Championship in 1959 including victory in the Le Mans 24 hour race. In order to reduce time spent on design and development the two 1962 Lola GT cars, into which Eric Broadley had fitted V8 Ford engines, were purchased together with retention of the whole time services of Broadley himself during this introductory period of 1963/64.

Seems that as Ford is an American company, and Henry Ford II himself comissioned and ultimately paid for the GT40 - it is an American car... ;)

Since you use the same argument to say that Chryslers are no German cars...

*shrug*

[amanthapar]

err.. okay it laped faster than a m5... BUT U REALLY THINK IT CAN HANDLE BETTER ? ..... u think it can give u that much thrill?

how can this be the dumbest thing said on JW????

ok wiseguy..

[amanthapar]

ok then.. brembo
u think an EVO 8 handles better than a M3...
the evo laps faster by at least 2 seconds.... it doenst handle better... the body roll on that is ugly, pitch is crap etc etc....
now u better be scared

an m5 has less BHP.....

u think any car company can beat bmw handling ? hahahahahahahha (compare it to merc audi and american cars of same class..)

[amanthapar]

dammit man 200 BHP less... or 100 less in the current... u think thats not enuf to lap faster

[LotusGT1]

This yahoo is saying that if car A. laps the Nurburgring faster than car B. then we can NOT conclude car A handles better than car B...

So by your logic then, the Porsche Carrera GT has worse handling than a bus.. after all just because the GT laps the 'Ring faster than a bus, does not mean it handles better...

Wow... :roll:

LOL...

Never heard of horsepower advantage have you ? According to your logic a Lotus Exige handles worse than a Bmw M Coupe because it's 20 seconds slower on the Ring...LOL, that same Exige is 2.5 seconds faster on the Hockenheim ring, a much twistier circuit. What does that prove (and has been claimed by any respected driver you can find) ? Exige outhandles the M Coupe.

Thanks, you made my day, idiot.

[LotusGT1]

About the CTS-V, it won't do good in Europe.

Why ? Unlike in America, in Europe most american cars don't benefit from the huge price benefit they have in the US.
Secondly, although perhaps not true, the image of american cars still is based on the boat-like handling characteristics most US cars had in the 70s.
Thirdly, apart from perhaps the most current models, the quality and feel still isn't up to european standards. Many people tend to forget that most european cars still are changed especially for the US market. In other words, european cars built for the import to the USA are changed. A euro-spec 320i f.e. will handle differently than a us-spec 320i. The riddle in Europe will be stiffer.

Quite simple, demand in the US differs from the demand in Europe.

That doesn't make the CTS V any less impressive though.

IMO it's childish to point to cliches and bad chosen name-calling to get a point across. Let's just judge a car on its merits....

[T-Bird]

And are all the Ferrari's including the Enzo using Bridgestones American?


if you trying to correct someone at lest get your facts right

Bridgestones = Japanese
not american


And NOW they are American Bridgestone-Firestone Company from Akron Ohio.

[possessed_beaver]

come on guys..
CTS-V < new m5

So - where this new M5? You driven one yet? :roll: This is akin to saying the 2011 Lamborghini XXX will beat the 1962 Ferrai GTO... :roll:


well if you take the statment out of context you will perceve it however you want.

it all comes down to personal preferance, if you want a quality well made car, with outstanding luxuary and amazing peformance.
then you buy a german peformance car, simple.

germany builds better cars, whenever a new car is released in america (peformance wise) the benchmark for it to build is always compared to a car from europe.

and as for a great american piece of shit, just look at the crysler crossfire.
even with GERMAN HELP they stuffed it up, and the latest lexus sports car, developed in america they spent a shitload on it, and it was a piece of crap.

and as soon as america wants help for a better handling car they have to go to germany, and use german engeneers, or in the case of the latest ford GT go to lotus.

[nthfinity]

an m5 has less BHP.....

6 less crank hp then the CTS-V pre-2004, and the same this year

394hp DOHC high tech v8
vs.
400hp pushrod V8

DOHC 32-valve (4-cam) V-8, High-Pressure Double VANOS steplessly variable intake- & exhaust-valve timing, 8 individual electronically controlled throttles with Normal & Sport settings
Engine
Type: V8
Displacement cu in (cc): 301 (4941)
Power bhp (kW) at RPM: 400(293) / 6600
Torque lb-ft (Nm) at RPM: 370(500) / 3800
Redline at RPM: 7000
Weight lb (kg): 3957 (1795)


Technical Specifications

Engine Type: 5.7L V-8
Displacement: 345 cu. in. / 5665 cc
Bore & Stroke: 99.0 mm / 92.0 mm
Valvetrain: OHV
Valves per cylinder: 2
Maximum RPM: 6600
Horsepower: 400 @ 6000
Torque: 395 @ 4800
Weight: 1744 kg / 3847 lb.


i think the numbers tell a story in and of themselves

[Toronto]

And are all the Ferrari's including the Enzo using Bridgestones American?


if you trying to correct someone at lest get your facts right

Bridgestones = Japanese
not american


And NOW they are American Bridgestone-Firestone Company from Akron Ohio.

Correction Ferrari drives on Bridgestone tires, not Bridgestone American Tires (subsidiary of Bridgestone Corporation from Tokyo, Japan)

Bridgestone purchased Firestone and the headquarters are still in Tokyo, all the testing for ferrari is done in japan, the money goes to japan, and i don't think anyone on the ferrari f1 team ever mailed anything to Ohio.

also if i am correct i think the Bridgestone America company HQ are in Nashville.

[T-Bird]

Bridgestone-Firestone is from Akron Ohio and recently relocated in Nashville (that I didn't know) according to their website. There are no Bridgestone Plants in Japan they are all on this side of the world as far south as Chile but most are in the States and one in Canada. It seems the Potenza was developed in the United States for the International brand so if you want to get technical they are American tires.

[Toronto]

Bridgestone-Firestone is from Akron Ohio and recently relocated in Nashville (that I didn't know) according to their website. There are no Bridgestone Plants in Japan they are all on this side of the world as far south as Chile but most are in the States and one in Canada. It seems the Potenza was developed in the United States for the International brand so if you want to get technical they are American tires.

well the first Bridgestone plant was in Kurume, Japan
their test track is in Tochigi, Japan
quote from their site
"Our Japanese plants, for example, supply markets around the world with ultrahigh-performance tires, runflat tires, studless winter tires, large tires for earthmoving equipment and other specialty tires. Our plants in Southeast Asia, meanwhile, produce commodity-grade tires for local markets and for export. "

and as i said b4 all the f1 tires are tested and made in japan

[amanthapar]

RC45......... i mean that there are so many factors involved in making a car go round fast.. but i know is that the bmw handles better ...

and when the new M5 comes out ... u shld start a new post saying "CTS-v is beaten"

[graywolf624]

"Never heard of horsepower advantage have you ? According to your logic a Lotus Exige handles worse than a Bmw M Coupe because it's 20 seconds slower on the Ring...LOL, that same Exige is 2.5 seconds faster on the Hockenheim ring, a much twistier circuit. What does that prove (and has been claimed by any respected driver you can find) ? Exige outhandles the M Coupe.

Thanks, you made my day, idiot."

And this is where latteral acceleration and slolom come in. Both of which are superb in the cts-v. It is well above the bmw.


but i know is that the bmw handles better ...

ermm.. wrong. Especially not the m5. m3 maybe.. But the m5 has never been the handler of the two.
Speaking as someone whos been on the track in both a 2002 m3 and a 2002 m5 driven by the same friend.

As for bridgestone.. he is right in that bridgestone america is a subsidery of a company based in tokyo. That being said.. The company firestone was american long before it was merged.. And it is a seperate business unit. Furthermore, location doesnt mean americans didnt make something. Just like many michelin tires are designed/manufactured/ect in america.
American 100 percent tire company is cooper tire(a buddy of mine works there).

But as you can see.. the lines are blurred on ownership/location/development. You can hardly call any of these companies projects 100 percent belonging to a country. In reality.. you can even say a car belongs to a country. If that were the case as I said before. opel, saab, aston martin, volvo, holden, ect. ect. could be considered american.. and it isnt the engineer location either.. cause I know of plenty of companies(including the one that I work for) that could have me working abroad.. Im still an american though.

[T-Bird]

exactly if just because the car or parts of it were built in that Country then The BMW X3/5 and Z4 are American cars and the Ford Focus is now a Canadian car, Subaru-Isuzu is American aswell then...

[RC45]

RC45......... i mean that there are so many factors involved in making a car go round fast.. but i know is that the bmw handles better ...

Based on what? Driven both?

Considering the manufacturers use the 'Ring as a test bed, it seems they are placing value in fast times at that very real world race track.

Unless you know something they don't - write em all a letter and tell them the 'Ring tests are a waste of time.. :roll:

That will save them a bit of money... :roll:


and when the new M5 comes out ... u shld start a new post saying "CTS-v is beaten"
Whatever... when the new X comes out the old Y will suck... :roll:

[LotusGT1]

RC45......... i mean that there are so many factors involved in making a car go round fast.. but i know is that the bmw handles better ...

Based on what? Driven both?

Considering the manufacturers use the 'Ring as a test bed, it seems [i]they/i] are placing value in fast times at that very real world race track.

Unless you know something they don't - write em all a letter and tell them the 'Ring tests are a waste of time.. :roll:

That will save them a bit of money... :roll:


LOL, still don't get it, do you ? Besides conveniently ignoring the mistakes I pointed you towards you're still convinced a faster laptime equals better handling, don't you ?

P.S. A "Your point ?" reply is getting lame...

[amanthapar]

brembo... y are u listening to Top gear out of all...
tiff drove both and said the m5 is faster on a track.. LOL

tiff vs top gear...hmmm... tiff will give the better answer in terms of driving..

and also the time m3 got was slow... it could have done it faster... because the difference between the M3csl and M3 is on average 2 seconds around a track..
but in the case of the top gear it was 3 secs....
and tiff said it was 2 secs so i go with him...
therefore they both would have got similar times...and the m3 is old now and s4 really new so u have to take that into account as well.... the m3 came out in 1999 and s4 in 2003 4 year gap and still audi makes the car similar speed...
the audi has a 4.2 liter engine m3 has 3.2 and still audi has the same BHP so ..
bmw wins ..

and RC45 i havent driven them
ill ask u this question,... how old is the m5 ? hint.. 5-6 years...the new one comes out ur crappy american car is going to be nowhere sorry to say.. and it will win . the new 600 hp cts will be slower on a track than the new m5...... ok i think we will never stop arguing about this decision so ill stop and tell u to take part in my Poll ... in poll section.. callled CTSv vs m5.... i think most ppl said the m5 is better (no shit) ... check it out...
now u think most ppl are wrong when they voted????? i dont think so..... hahaha

[LotusGT1]

@amanthapar

Please shut up. You're talking sheer BS. The CTS V is FAR from a crappy car. That poll of yours, I chose f.e. the M5 because it suits my taste much better, not because it's a better car per se....

[amanthapar]

Lotus Gt1.. yes i used the word crappy... well i meant it just to justify that the m5 is better ..
i know that the car is not crappy after all it is currrently faster...

so i guess lotus gt1 ( if u knew good english) u would properly understand what "a figure of speech is "

[graywolf624]

LOL, still don't get it, do you ? Besides conveniently ignoring the mistakes I pointed you towards you're still convinced a faster laptime equals better handling, don't you ?

P.S. A "Your point ?" reply is getting lame...

While your right in theory that the car might win cause of hsp.. thats not really only why the cts-v is faster. It handles just as well as the m3 in the right hands.. then the power helps it do better.

[RC45]

LOL, still don't get it, do you ? Besides conveniently ignoring the mistakes I pointed you towards you're still convinced a faster laptime equals better handling, don't you ?

P.S. A "Your point ?" reply is getting lame...

Get what you stupid mother fucker?

When you take 2 cars and pit them against the clock on a track like the 'Ring... (tyres, driver and weather permitting near equal conditions) it is accepted globally that the ONE WITH THE LOWEST TIME IS THE BETTER HANDELING CAR

Jesus Christ sometimes people just cannot see the wood for the trees ... :roll: ...

And it's official - my patience with the stupid and the lame has officially worn out.

No more "mr nice guy".

I call it like it is from now on.

*edit* - p.s. I really don't care for these lame-ass "debates" any more.

Like farting in a thunderstorm.. a pointless excercise.

[graywolf624]

Hes got a point lotus..
The nurbering has been known as the milestone for performance track handling for a car.

[LotusGT1]

While your right in theory that the car might win cause of hsp.. thats not really only why the cts-v is faster. It handles just as well as the m3 in the right hands.. then the power helps it do better.

True. You didn't seen me claim otherwise right ? As said before, the CTS-V might not suit my taste, but it's a impressively capable car.



Get what you stupid mother fucker?

When you take 2 cars and pit them against the clock on a track like the 'Ring... (tyres, driver and weather permitting near equal conditions) it is accepted globally that the ONE WITH THE LOWEST TIME IS THE BETTER HANDELING CAR

Jesus Christ sometimes people just cannot see the wood for the trees ... :roll: ...

And it's official - my patience with the stupid and the lame has officially worn out.

No more "mr nice guy".

I call it like it is from now on.

*edit* - p.s. I really don't care for these lame-ass "debates" any more.

Like farting in a thunderstorm.. a pointless excercise.

Ahahaha.

First you try with all these witty remarks of yours to make the competitors of the CTS V look bad, next you make claims that are wrong.

Listen moron, you might think you're all that because you have a Z06, but next time you open your mouth, I suggest you think about what you say and actually make a point instead of insulting me.

"no more mr nice guy"...ahaha....did you loose your brain capacity in the process ?

Better handling doesn't mean better laptimes you idiot, it doesn't get any more basic than that.

check www.track-challenge.com, and actually see what times have been driven.

[amanthapar]

RC45.....


WHAT ME AND LOTUS ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED.... SURE IF A CAR LAPS FASTER THE MAIN REASON COULD BE OR COULD NOT BE THE HANDLING ASPECT...

COMMON SENSE DUDE ... OR R U AMERICAN NOT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE U GUYS HAVE NO IDEA ON CORNERING SINCE U GUYS ONLY LIKE RACE IN A STARIGHT LINE ( AND THE ONLY CAR THAT CAN DO THAT IS THE CTS-V WHICH CAN CORNER) BUT
M5 IS STILL NUMBER 1

[Toronto]

RC45,
LotusGT1 has a good point, if you look at the lap times of Nurburgring of a Lotus Exige would they be greater or less than a CTS-V?

If the CTS-V laps it quicker then the Lotus Exige is a better handling car?
no, the CTS-V makes up for it poor handling (compaired to a Lotus Exige) with it extra power.

8,42 = 142 km/h - Lotus Exige
8,20 = 150 km/h - BMW M5 (both from http://www.nordschleife.no )

so since the M5 has a faster time, it handles better then the Exige right RC45?
cause i thought the Exige handles "like a house fly"
:lol:

as for the fact said by graywolf624, about the Nürburgring built to show the handling of a car. this is not true, it was built to brake cars, to destroy them the turns in on the track are ment to wear down the cars suspension, , as well as the compression the car faces on the hills, and ultimately destroys the car

[komotar]

If anybody is interested in various track times on the ring, this is the place for it:

www.track-challenge.com

[LotusGT1]

Look 3 posts above you :)

About the Nordschleife, it actually does show if a car can handle or not. The balance of the car has to be good for a decent laptime.

[graywolf624]

this is not true, it was built to brake cars, to destroy them the turns in on the track are ment to wear down the cars suspension, , as well as the compression the car faces on the hills, and ultimately destroys the car

I never said built.. I said its been used.

[LotusGT1]

RC45.....


WHAT ME AND LOTUS ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED.... SURE IF A CAR LAPS FASTER THE MAIN REASON COULD BE OR COULD NOT BE THE HANDLING ASPECT...

COMMON SENSE DUDE ... OR R U AMERICAN NOT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE U GUYS HAVE NO IDEA ON CORNERING SINCE U GUYS ONLY LIKE RACE IN A STARIGHT LINE ( AND THE ONLY CAR THAT CAN DO THAT IS THE CTS-V WHICH CAN CORNER) BUT
M5 IS STILL NUMBER 1

I hate it when you try to prove my point.

You're full of shit, please shut up.

[RC45]

RC45,
LotusGT1 has a good point, if you look at the lap times of Nurburgring of a Lotus Exige would they be greater or less than a CTS-V?

If the CTS-V laps it quicker then the Lotus Exige is a better handling car?
no, the CTS-V makes up for it poor handling (compaired to a Lotus Exige) with it extra power.

8,42 = 142 km/h - Lotus Exige
8,20 = 150 km/h - BMW M5 (both from http://www.nordschleife.no )

so since the M5 has a faster time, it handles better then the Exige right RC45?
cause i thought the Exige handles "like a house fly"
:lol:

Thats the entire point you two brain dead imbeciles.

Go-kart handeling with no power is stupid... car is NOT a complete package.

Super power with bad handling is NOT a complete package.

THAT is what a car like the Carrera GT and Enzo and in it's day the Macca were COMPETE packages.

The can go fast, stop and turn.

Hence, the term "bast car in the world" etc etc blah blah.

Let's leave the CTS-V out of this - you two stupid cocksuckers are making some of the DUMBEST claims ever posted on the Net.

The reason a good time at the 'Ring is placed so high on the priority list of manufacturers is because it is a way to in a summary fashion observe the behaviours of the entire car package in relation to a REAL WORLD driving situation.

Not a billiard table smooth Formula 1 race track where the "superior" handling of a Lotus Exige can be exploited - but a REAL WORLD type road that has shown on video that even a Z51 Corvette C5 coupe and leave a race prepped Lotus Exige in the DUST around the 'Ring.

What does all this mean?

That is the CONTEXT of this discussion you dimwits - the cars under the microscope have a certain performance ability - and that this ability in relation to REAL WORLD applications (which is the only one 99% of the drivers/readers on this forum will be daily exposed to) the BETTER handling/powered etc car's are the ones with the...

wait for i...

FASTEST times around the Nurburgring.

You splitting hairs that the go-kart chassis handling of this or that car in a parking lot or super-smooth F1 race track is the ultimate representation of that chassis ability to perform in the REAL WORLD is such a juvenile debate point...

This is why I tire of these stupid debates...because you motherfuckers get all distracted by some little assenine point and hone in on that factor to the exclusion of all else.

Because of all the variables (which I am well aware and educated about - for christs sake, I was reading. watching and following motor sport since before some of you clowns were born.. :roll: ) there is needed some common denominator against which all these cars need to be compared.

This common denominator has over the decades become the Nordschleiffe - and with that in mind, the BEST cars are the ones that can perform the best there.

No one forced Lotus to leave the Exige 250hp short - that was their own design flaw.

What a joke some people are.

The sad part is that they are actually let loose on society and exposed to the public on a daily basis.

And these fuckers can not even see the wood for the trees... :roll:

BTW, you need to come up with some better insult that "becuse I drive a Z06 I think what ever" - what I drive has nothing to do with the facts being presented. I have no doubt if I drove a Mini minor or an Enzo you would STILL maintian your incorrect point of view.

You are wrong.

[RC45]

RC45.....


WHAT ME AND LOTUS ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED.... SURE IF A CAR LAPS FASTER THE MAIN REASON COULD BE OR COULD NOT BE THE HANDLING ASPECT...

COMMON SENSE DUDE ... OR R U AMERICAN NOT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE U GUYS HAVE NO IDEA ON CORNERING SINCE U GUYS ONLY LIKE RACE IN A STARIGHT LINE ( AND THE ONLY CAR THAT CAN DO THAT IS THE CTS-V WHICH CAN CORNER) BUT
M5 IS STILL NUMBER 1

Hey fuckpig - I am American by residence but I grew up driving and following motor-sport in South Africa.

I was driving Alpine switchbacks in cars and on bikes since before you were born.

I am well aware of what it takes to throw a car through a series of hairpins that are cliff face to the left and drop off to the right and what you can expect your car to do or not to do in order for you not to die.

It may surprise you that some of us are more than just magazine readers... :roll:

[Toronto]

This yahoo is saying that if car A. laps the Nurburgring faster than car B. then we can NOT conclude car A handles better than car B...

So by your logic then, the Porsche Carrera GT has worse handling than a bus.. after all just because the GT laps the 'Ring faster than a bus, does not mean it handles better...

all i said was that the m5 can still have better handling then the CTS-V even with a slower lap time, i never said anything about a complete package, your point you are trying to prove that the CTS-V has better handling then and m5 has it flaws, and i have just pointed them out,

and even with a faster lap time, i wouldn't buy a CTS-V because of the poor build quality and the plastic feel you get from the car when you are in it. (well you get that feel from the CTS, i don't think the CTS-V can be any better)

[amanthapar]

lotus gt1..
go get laid dude u need some help

[LotusGT1]

Thats the entire point you two brain dead imbeciles.

Go-kart handeling with no power is stupid... car is NOT a complete package.

Super power with bad handling is NOT a complete package.

THAT is what a car like the Carrera GT and Enzo and in it's day the Macca were COMPETE packages.

The can go fast, stop and turn.

Hence, the term "bast car in the world" etc etc blah blah.

Let's leave the CTS-V out of this - you two stupid cocksuckers are making some of the DUMBEST claims ever posted on the Net.

The reason a good time at the 'Ring is placed so high on the priority list of manufacturers is because it is a way to in a summary fashion observe the behaviours of the entire car package in relation to a REAL WORLD driving situation.

Not a billiard table smooth Formula 1 race track where the "superior" handling of a Lotus Exige can be exploited - but a REAL WORLD type road that has shown on video that even a Z51 Corvette C5 coupe and leave a race prepped Lotus Exige in the DUST around the 'Ring.

What does all this mean?

That is the CONTEXT of this discussion you dimwits - the cars under the microscope have a certain performance ability - and that this ability in relation to REAL WORLD applications (which is the only one 99% of the drivers/readers on this forum will be daily exposed to) the BETTER handling/powered etc car's are the ones with the...

wait for i...

FASTEST times around the Nurburgring.

You splitting hairs that the go-kart chassis handling of this or that car in a parking lot or super-smooth F1 race track is the ultimate representation of that chassis ability to perform in the REAL WORLD is such a juvenile debate point...

This is why I tire of these stupid debates...because you motherfuckers get all distracted by some little assenine point and hone in on that factor to the exclusion of all else.

Because of all the variables (which I am well aware and educated about - for christs sake, I was reading. watching and following motor sport since before some of you clowns were born.. :roll: ) there is needed some common denominator against which all these cars need to be compared.

This common denominator has over the decades become the Nordschleiffe - and with that in mind, the BEST cars are the ones that can perform the best there.

No one forced Lotus to leave the Exige 250hp short - that was their own design flaw.

What a joke some people are.

The sad part is that they are actually let loose on society and exposed to the public on a daily basis.

And these fuckers can not even see the wood for the trees... :roll:

BTW, you need to come up with some better insult that "becuse I drive a Z06 I think what ever" - what I drive has nothing to do with the facts being presented. I have no doubt if I drove a Mini minor or an Enzo you would STILL maintian your incorrect point of view.

You are wrong.

That's for this lenghty piece of jibberish. You can discuss all night long for all I care, but don't try to twist your words into something that you didn't say in the first place.

You can bullshit all you want, but the fastest lapping cars don't have the best handling. LOL, in real world that applies differently you nimbwit.
Apart from pedal mashing at stoplight you really can't take advantage of your handling on public roads. So, your initial point was worthless anyway.

Please don't comment on my insulting, you're the one that keeps coming bacxk and back with the shit every time. No experience blah blah, I know it all blah blah....Just admit for once that you were wrong asshole.

BTW, If you saw the inboard video of the C5 and the Exige you would see the Exige was so much faster in the corners the C5-driver blocked them a the Exige times. Both cars lap the 'Ring in about the same time.

I'm done with you and this thread.

[LotusGT1]

lotus gt1..
go get laid dude u need some help

Go kill yourself or something, Your stupidity is unmatched by any around here...LOL@americans can't corner. Anyother figure of speech right :roll:

[RC45]

Thats the entire point you two brain dead imbeciles.

Go-kart handeling with no power is stupid... car is NOT a complete package.

Super power with bad handling is NOT a complete package.

THAT is what a car like the Carrera GT and Enzo and in it's day the Macca were COMPETE packages.

The can go fast, stop and turn.

Hence, the term "bast car in the world" etc etc blah blah.

Let's leave the CTS-V out of this - you two stupid cocksuckers are making some of the DUMBEST claims ever posted on the Net.

The reason a good time at the 'Ring is placed so high on the priority list of manufacturers is because it is a way to in a summary fashion observe the behaviours of the entire car package in relation to a REAL WORLD driving situation.

Not a billiard table smooth Formula 1 race track where the "superior" handling of a Lotus Exige can be exploited - but a REAL WORLD type road that has shown on video that even a Z51 Corvette C5 coupe and leave a race prepped Lotus Exige in the DUST around the 'Ring.

What does all this mean?

That is the CONTEXT of this discussion you dimwits - the cars under the microscope have a certain performance ability - and that this ability in relation to REAL WORLD applications (which is the only one 99% of the drivers/readers on this forum will be daily exposed to) the BETTER handling/powered etc car's are the ones with the...

wait for i...

FASTEST times around the Nurburgring.

You splitting hairs that the go-kart chassis handling of this or that car in a parking lot or super-smooth F1 race track is the ultimate representation of that chassis ability to perform in the REAL WORLD is such a juvenile debate point...

This is why I tire of these stupid debates...because you motherfuckers get all distracted by some little assenine point and hone in on that factor to the exclusion of all else.

Because of all the variables (which I am well aware and educated about - for christs sake, I was reading. watching and following motor sport since before some of you clowns were born.. :roll: ) there is needed some common denominator against which all these cars need to be compared.

This common denominator has over the decades become the Nordschleiffe - and with that in mind, the BEST cars are the ones that can perform the best there.

No one forced Lotus to leave the Exige 250hp short - that was their own design flaw.

What a joke some people are.

The sad part is that they are actually let loose on society and exposed to the public on a daily basis.

And these fuckers can not even see the wood for the trees... :roll:

BTW, you need to come up with some better insult that "becuse I drive a Z06 I think what ever" - what I drive has nothing to do with the facts being presented. I have no doubt if I drove a Mini minor or an Enzo you would STILL maintian your incorrect point of view.

You are wrong.

That's for this lenghty piece of jibberish. You can discuss all night long for all I care, but don't try to twist your words into something that you didn't say in the first place.

You can bullshit all you want, but the fastest lapping cars don't have the best handling. LOL, in real world that applies differently you nimbwit.
Apart from pedal mashing at stoplight you really can't take advantage of your handling on public roads. So, your initial point was worthless anyway.

Please don't comment on my insulting, you're the one that keeps coming bacxk and back with the shit every time. No experience blah blah, I know it all blah blah....Just admit for once that you were wrong asshole.

BTW, If you saw the inboard video of the C5 and the Exige you would see the Exige was so much faster in the corners the C5-driver blocked them a the Exige times. Both cars lap the 'Ring in about the same time.

I'm done with you and this thread.

Couple things come to mind...

You are an idiot.

I am not wrong.

The Exige vs C5 was not even close - the C5 left the Exige by a long way. Both cars did not lap in about the same time. But that's not what the thread was about.

The CTS-V is a better handling car than the M3 and the M5.

You STILL haven't proven that this statement is incorrect - even after all these pages.

I am imagining I am one of the few people on this board that has driven the CTS-V and the M3 and and the M5.

Now I may not have taken the cars on a "car comparison" test - but I at least have something - I have driven them.

Combine that with the info out there and you can see how that even though it is just an opinion of mine - my point of view is backed by personal experience with the cars in question...

What is YOUR point of view backed with ?

So - in closing, I will maintain the CTS-V is a better handler than the current M3 and the current M5.

Period.

Come back when you have driven all 3 jackass.

[LotusGT1]

Couple things come to mind...

You are an idiot.

I am not wrong.

The Exige vs C5 was not even close - the C5 left the Exige by a long way. Both cars did not lap in about the same time. But that's not what the thread was about.

The CTS-V is a better handling car than the M3 and the M5.

You STILL haven't proven that this statement is incorrect - even after all these pages.

I am imagining I am one of the few people on this board that has driven the CTS-V and the M3 and and the M5.

Now I may not have taken the cars on a "car comparison" test - but I at least have something - I have driven them.

Combine that with the info out there and you can see how that even though it is just an opinion of mine - my point of view is backed by personal experience with the cars in question...

What is YOUR point of view backed with ?

So - in closing, I will maintain the CTS-V is a better handler than the current M3 and the current M5.

Period.

Come back when you have driven all 3 jackass.

LOL, I see you now start like a 3-year old. I'm right, you're wrong. Too bad you have zero factual backup for that. So let me rephrase again so you peabrain can understand....

Sorry, I don't see your three laps around the parking lot as any indication of which car is the better handler. Oh wait, on the highway you really did some handling testing right ? Give me a fucking break...

In fact, I highly doubt the CTS-V can outhandle the M3. Looking at the weight advantage of the M3, and the general consensus that it's the best handling car in its class, combined with the fact that the M3 about as fast as the CTS-V, with 60-70 hp down, it's fair to assume the M3 will outhandle the CTS-V, as stated by numerous sources. Looking at the claims that are made by the authors of numerous magazines, I'll take that word over the word of a moron like you. I don't have anything to prove to you, and you weren't claiming that. You did nothing to prove that the CTS-V is in fact a better handler than the M3 or M5.

So, while you was wrong about handling and laptimes, now you're making claims based on virtually nothing, and that while you have your bais for american cars. Fucking great.

But now shut up....you make yourself look stupid.

PS, check the video, from minute 8 till 10 the Vette is blocking the Elise, only to walk away at the last straights. An Exige runs around 8.40-45 on the Ring, so does a plain jane Corvette...

[RC45]

Couple things come to mind...

You are an idiot.

I am not wrong.

The Exige vs C5 was not even close - the C5 left the Exige by a long way. Both cars did not lap in about the same time. But that's not what the thread was about.

The CTS-V is a better handling car than the M3 and the M5.

You STILL haven't proven that this statement is incorrect - even after all these pages.

I am imagining I am one of the few people on this board that has driven the CTS-V and the M3 and and the M5.

Now I may not have taken the cars on a "car comparison" test - but I at least have something - I have driven them.

Combine that with the info out there and you can see how that even though it is just an opinion of mine - my point of view is backed by personal experience with the cars in question...

What is YOUR point of view backed with ?

So - in closing, I will maintain the CTS-V is a better handler than the current M3 and the current M5.

Period.

Come back when you have driven all 3 jackass.

LOL, I see you now start like a 3-year old. I'm right, you're wrong. Too bad you have zero factual backup for that. So let me rephrase again so you peabrain can understand....

Sorry, I don't see your three laps around the parking lot as any indication of which car is the better handler. Oh wait, on the highway you really did some handling testing right ? Give me a fucking break...

In fact, I highly doubt the CTS-V can outhandle the M3. Looking at the weight advantage of the M3, and the general consensus that it's the best handling car in its class, combined with the fact that the M3 about as fast as the CTS-V, with 60-70 hp down, it's fair to assume the M3 will outhandle the CTS-V, as stated by numerous sources. Looking at the claims that are made by the authors of numerous magazines, I'll take that word over the word of a moron like you. I don't have anything to prove to you, and you weren't claiming that. You did nothing to prove that the CTS-V is in fact a better handler than the M3 or M5.

So, while you was wrong about handling and laptimes, now you're making claims based on virtually nothing, and that while you have your bais for american cars. Fucking great.

But now shut up....you make yourself look stupid.

PS, check the video, from minute 8 till 10 the Vette is blocking the Elise, only to walk away at the last straights. An Exige runs around 8.40-45 on the Ring, so does a plain jane Corvette...

Wow - talk about clueless.

I am TELLING you that from behind the wheel I felt the CTS-V was better than the M3 and M5. Even if my perception is flawed - at least I am basing my opinion on more than "bench racing".

What is you opinion of the 3 cars based on again?

And with regard to "my 3 laps around the parking lot" - sure - what ever you choose to believe.

Not wanting to repeat myself - when have you driven all 3 of the cars in quesiton?

Oh - wait - I don't think you have.

p.s. Look at that video again - The Exige was not being blocked - it could not pass the Corvette. That video has been around since Racing flix day 1 and been viewed many, many. many times.

The Exige is 200hp down on power - whose fault is that? Oh wait I know why - it's the hp/l that counts.. :roll: :wink:

[LotusGT1]

Wow - talk about clueless.

I am TELLING you that from behind the wheel I felt the CTS-V was better than the M3 and M5. Even if my perception is flawed - at least I am basing my opinion on more than "bench racing".

What is you opinion of the 3 cars based on again?

And with regard to "my 3 laps around the parking lot" - sure - what ever you choose to believe.

Not wanting to repeat myself - when have you driven all 3 of the cars in quesiton?

Oh - wait - I don't think you have.

p.s. Look at that video again - The Exige was not being blocked - it could not pass the Corvette. That video has been around since Racing flix day 1 and been viewed many, many. many times.

The Exige is 200hp down on power - whose fault is that? Oh wait I know why - it's the hp/l that counts.. :roll: :wink:

Oh please, the day your opinion is the reference is the day I'll eat my shoes. Ergo, it isn't going to happen.

Please, after the countless times you called the M5's, E55's and RS6's overpriced and a whatever more, you seriously think your opinion holds any value to me ? Oh, and no 3 laps around the parking lot ? Please enlighten me what test program you persued to find out which car has the best handling. Of course, the "feel", what the fuck that might be...

My opinion is based on objective observations made by drivers who actually test cars for their living. I'd rather do that than base it on somebody who can't keep handling and laptimes in the right perspective...
Have you ever been to the 'Ring ?

And about me not having driven the cars, I'm not planning to fly over a 1000 miles to drive a CTS-V. The regular CTS I drove sucked enough in the departments I care about.

P.S. If your can't see that before the last straight the C5 has been blocking the Exige numerous times your opinion is more flawed than I imagined before.

Lotus chose to make the Exige light and nimble, and not an heavy sportscar packed with a lot of power. Ah wait, according to you the Corvette outhandles the Exige because it laps the 'Ring better. :roll:

LOL, you're a joke. A bad one though....

[RC45]

Oh please, the day your opinion is the reference is the day I'll eat my shoes. Ergo, it isn't going to happen.

Please, after the countless times you called the M5's, E55's and RS6's overpriced and a whatever more, you seriously think your opinion holds any value to me ? Oh, and no 3 laps around the parking lot ? Please enlighten me what test program you persued to find out which car has the best handling. Of course, the "feel", what the fuck that might be...

My opinion is based on objective observations made by drivers who actually test cars for their living. I'd rather do that than base it on somebody who can't keep handling and laptimes in the right perspective...
Have you ever been to the 'Ring ?

And about me not having driven the cars, I'm not planning to fly over a 1000 miles to drive a CTS-V. The regular CTS I drove sucked enough in the departments I care about.

P.S. If your can't see that before the last straight the C5 has been blocking the Exige numerous times your opinion is more flawed than I imagined before.

Lotus chose to make the Exige light and nimble, and not an heavy sportscar packed with a lot of power. Ah wait, according to you the Corvette outhandles the Exige because it laps the 'Ring better. :roll:

LOL, you're a joke. A bad one though....

Lotus left 200hp on the table - the car could still be light and nimb;le with 200 more hp.

The facts show the Exige is outclassed by the 'Ring and any car that laps the ring in a quicker time.

The truth is except for a billard smooth F1 track and parking lote chicanes - the Exige is waste of gas... ;) 200hp more, and it would be a great car - in the mean time it is simply a "little car".

I am once again telling you - the M5 is overpriced for what it is - and wait - the very magazine article you posted saiud exactly the same thing.

The M5 was NOT worth the extra $23,000 considering how good the CTS-V is.

And isn't that brilliant of you to base your opinion of the CTS-V on your impressions of the CTS.

I guess then I should base my opinions of the M5 on a 518.

Looks like you are tripping yourself up.

Let's summerize - the M5. E55. RS6 and what ever else Europe can produce are not worth the inflated price they ask - why not?

Because for less money you can have the same or better performance.

But wait - you are going to come back with "there is more to cars than performance" and talk about fit and finish and luxury etc etc.... then buy the base model - just the same luxury lower price.

But now you will say "I want both, luxury and performance" - then you will have to over-pay to get an M5. E55 or RS6... or get everything AND a lower price and drive off in the CTS-V.

Now put that into the perspective of the Super CTS-V with 600hp - and perhaps you will realize - that just because you SAY the CTS-V and derivatives are not good cars that outhandle and outperform YOUR favourites - does not make it so.

Seems to me you missed the entire point from the get go.

oh... and you might want to eat a little more fibre... ;)

[LotusGT1]

Lotus left 200hp on the table - the car could still be light and nimb;le with 200 more hp.

The facts show the Exige is outclassed by the 'Ring and any car that laps the ring in a quicker time.

The truth is except for a billard smooth F1 track and parking lote chicanes - the Exige is waste of gas... ;) 200hp more, and it would be a great car - in the mean time it is simply a "little car".

I am once again telling you - the M5 is overpriced for what it is - and wait - the very magazine article you posted saiud exactly the same thing.

The M5 was NOT worth the extra $23,000 considering how good the CTS-V is.

And isn't that brilliant of you to base your opinion of the CTS-V on your impressions of the CTS.

I guess then I should base my opinions of the M5 on a 518.

Looks like you are tripping yourself up.

Let's summerize - the M5. E55. RS6 and what ever else Europe can produce are not worth the inflated price they ask - why not?

Because for less money you can have the same or better performance.

But wait - you are going to come back with "there is more to cars than performance" and talk about fit and finish and luxury etc etc.... then buy the base model - just the same luxury lower price.

But now you will say "I want both, luxury and performance" - then you will have to over-pay to get an M5. E55 or RS6... or get everything AND a lower price and drive off in the CTS-V.

Now put that into the perspective of the Super CTS-V with 600hp - and perhaps you will realize - that just because you SAY the CTS-V and derivatives are not good cars that outhandle and outperform YOUR favourites - does not make it so.

Seems to me you missed the entire point from the get go.

oh... and you might want to eat a little more fibre... ;)

Blah,

Lotus didn't left 200 Hp on the table, with 200 Hp more that car would be instant suicide. Besides, they can't extract 200 hp out of such a little engine...You don't grasp the concept of cars like the Exige and the Elise obviously...

Again, put the CTS and a 5-series next to each other and tell me both cars are on par when you look at finish, luxury and "feel". They're not. The CTS-V might be a marvellous performer (tell me where I disputed that) but it can't match the M5 in other departments. If you prefer that or not is fully subjective.

Besides the fact the CTS-V is domestic and therefore has a price advantage in the US, I don't see how the E55/M5/RS6 are overpriced.

For the price of your Z06 I can have a car that will make toast of yours in every aspect, and keeping $10k in my pocket. Obviously it's second hand, or custom built. So there will always be faster alternatives. Does that make them betteroverall ?

Point is that the price of the Bmw/Audi/Mercedes doesn't come from nowhere. If you can't justify that price, I frankly give rats ass. That's called personal preference....

P.S. I never said the M3 and the M5 would definitively outhandle the CTS-V, don't put words in my mouth...

P.S. 2, I need fibre ?

[RC45]

P.S. I never said the M3 and the M5 would definitively outhandle the CTS-V, don't put words in my mouth...



Then what the fuck did you say? In 15 words or less please.

[LotusGT1]

Laptimes don't tell which car is the best handler, as you have claimed.
The CTS-V is not per se the best handler, as you have claimed.
The European market/manufacturers won't be afraid of this car, because of several reasons as I've pointed out.

Well done. I'd apply for english class tomorrow if I were you....

Oh, and fuck 15 words ;)

[RC45]

Laptimes don't tell which car is the best handler, as you have claimed.
So then you are now saying that an Exige while lapping an autocross track in a quicker time than a Corvtte will not handle better?


The CTS-V is not per se the best handler, as you have claimed.

Why? Because you say so?


The European market/manufacturers won't be afraid of this car, because of several reasons as I've pointed out.

Hhmm.. thge manufacturers never cared - but the discerning buyer will.

BTW, just think of all the changes made to car models just to increase US sales... so I would think the manufacturers know where the money is... ;)

[LotusGT1]

Laptimes don't tell which car is the best handler, as you have claimed.
So then you are now saying that an Exige while lapping an autocross track in a quicker time than a Corvtte will not handle better?

The Exige outhandles the Corvette obviously....I never claimed otherwise...



The CTS-V is not per se the best handler, as you have claimed.

Why? Because you say so?

No, because enough experienced drivers said so.



The European market/manufacturers won't be afraid of this car, because of several reasons as I've pointed out.

Hhmm.. thge manufacturers never cared - but the discerning buyer will

BTW, just think of all the changes made to car models just to increase US sales... so I would think the manufacturers know where the money is...

LOL, read my explanation again. On the european market Caddilac won't stand a chance. And as for the US market, we'll see. I doubt Bmw/Mercedes/Audi will get nightmares because of this car. They suit a different market...

[T-Bird]

I know a few people who have moved from the 3 series to the CTS and I'm sure many others have and I know of alot of people that own European cars that are very interested in the CTS-V the idea is that Cadillac wants to dent the market with the CTS and CTS-V and they will and with the upcoming STS now with RWD they will really be making a comeback into the luxury/sport market so I'm sure the other over yonder have been paying alot of attention to this car. And the CTS-V is a pretty damn good handler considering they barely changed any suspension steering components on the car for the racing versions when all the other are heavily modified cars. There really is no way of satisfying either side unless every here gets together and has a go with the CTS-V, M5, RS6, and just for shits and giggles the M3, Z06, and why not the Exige just to settle all the arguments that have gone on in the last 7 pages.

BTW Lotus try editing your quotes a little better.

[LotusGT1]

BTW Lotus try editing your quotes a little better.

????

[T-Bird]

BTW Lotus try editing your quotes a little better.

????

nice when I looked at it first none of the quotes where on RC45's I'm guessing you fixed that though.

[graywolf624]

No, because enough experienced drivers said so.

Which ones would that be.. Funny Ive listened to several real drivers say its a great handling car.. Only one source.. witha broken car.. said it wasnt a good handler..
hmm.. I wonder.

[LotusGT1]

I never said the CTS-V is a bad handler. I only said the M# was called nimbler.

This discussion isn't going anywhere....let's drop it.

[RC45]

I never said the CTS-V is a bad handler. I only said the M# was called nimbler.


Jebeezus - it sure took you long enoughto say so... :roll: -- next time stick to dutch... :P


This discussion isn't going anywhere....let's drop it.
Looks like you are the only one who was carrying it to begin with...

[goose93]

Here is the problem with the CTS... No matter how fast it is.

GM build quality still sucks. I don't understand why GM keeps trying to complete in the European car market with a car that is so shotty compared to it's competition.

[RC45]

Here is the problem with the CTS... No matter how fast it is.

GM build quality still sucks. I don't understand why GM keeps trying to complete in the European car market with a car that is so shotty compared to it's competition.

Please be sure to qualify the CTS-V - which is what is under discussion. ;)

No one ever claimed GM was the "bnest detail finisher" - what is being loudly screamed from the rooftop[s is that they are offering what is possibly the best hp/dollar in a 4 door performance sedan ever.

[LotusGT1]

Jebeezus - it sure took you long enoughto say so... :roll: -- next time stick to dutch... :P

I see basic english has been troubling you. We can fund your education here on JW, we care :roll:


Looks like you are the only one who was carrying it to begin with...

Emh, just pointing out the numerous flaws in your story. That, and using your debating tactics, was enough to piss you off. I enjoyed myself pointing out your faults, thanks...

[komotar]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks2.jpg

[graywolf624]

GM build quality still sucks.

There build quality doesnt suck. Quite the opposite.. If you want to argue that their idea of luxury isnt the same as yours then fine. but thats different.

[fabro_s]

Too much for a cadillac, they should put thos horspower on the XLR not on the cts!!

[T-Bird]

they seem to be working on one of those right now actually.

[RC45]

Jebeezus - it sure took you long enoughto say so... :roll: -- next time stick to dutch... :P

I see basic english has been troubling you. We can fund your education here on JW, we care :roll:


Looks like you are the only one who was carrying it to begin with...

Emh, just pointing out the numerous flaws in your story. That, and using your debating tactics, was enough to piss you off. I enjoyed myself pointing out your faults, thanks...

Pieter, Isn't that a leak in a dike over there? If your head wasn't so far up your own ass, you could use it to plug the hole... :roll:

[LotusGT1]

LOL...and that for a Texan redneck :o